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Speaker 1: Jersey and Amanda gam Nation. It goes without saying that

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Speaker 1: every parent wants a healthy child, but how far would

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Speaker 1: you go for a perfectly selected child, handpicked by you

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Speaker 1: designer babies. It's a divisive topic. It's been gripping scientists, professors,

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Speaker 1: ethicist researchers all over the world. It's inspired our next guest.

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Speaker 1: She's an author and journalist, Genevieve Gannon. She has spent

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Speaker 1: years researching genetically modified babies for her new book called Inheritance. Genevieve, Hi, Hi.

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Speaker 1: It's a meaty subject, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Can we get a more meaty subject?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, No, not at all.

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Speaker 3: It's so complex and so interesting, which is why I

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Speaker 3: spent so long going down that rabbit hole, learning all

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Speaker 3: the different different things scientists are looking at being able

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Speaker 3: to do, and all of the different ethical implications of

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Speaker 3: what could be possible and.

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Speaker 1: What just without any ethics involved, what scientifically is possible.

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Speaker 3: So where this started for me was in twenty eighteen

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Speaker 3: when scientists in China actually did edit two little girls

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Speaker 3: attempting to make them.

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Speaker 1: Immune to HIV. And that was really why HIV was

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Speaker 1: that in their family history or something.

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Speaker 3: Was their father was HIV positive, and that was what

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Speaker 3: he decided to look at as someone who was really

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Speaker 3: interested in gene editing. And it was really controversial. People

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Speaker 3: are concerned he didn't do it properly and he was

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Speaker 3: sent to prison, and so that that kicked off a

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Speaker 3: discussion of have we now opened the Pandora's Box of

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Speaker 3: gene editing. This technology he was using Crispa was pretty new.

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Speaker 3: The two women who learned how to use it for

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Speaker 3: gene editing were awarded the Nobel Prize in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: And if he went to prison, he went to prison.

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Speaker 3: Its applications are lots of different things, medicine, you know,

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Speaker 3: so many of the applications are wonderful. But he sort

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Speaker 3: of thought, can we use this to edit human babies?

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Speaker 3: And a lot of scientists, a lot of biologists, a

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Speaker 3: lot of ethicists were saying, you know, we've really this

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Speaker 3: is a slippery slope, and people are now really concerned

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Speaker 3: that that box.

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Speaker 1: That box has been up. Because I think you can,

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Speaker 1: to a certain extent country if you have genes that

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Speaker 1: are prone to certain diseases and your partner's a character

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Speaker 1: carrier as well, I think you can screen for it.

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Speaker 1: But you can't manipulate them, Is that right.

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Speaker 3: That's correct. You can screen for it, but you can't

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Speaker 3: manipulate it using crisper yet. But what we're seeing now,

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Speaker 3: there's a big piece in Sunday Times on the weekend,

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Speaker 3: is there are clinics in California where IVF is not

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Speaker 3: as well regulated or as thoroughly regulated as it is

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Speaker 3: in other parts of the world, where people are coming

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Speaker 3: and they're saying, I want to choose the sex of

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Speaker 3: my child, I want to choose my child's eye color,

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Speaker 3: and clinics over there looking at other things that they

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Speaker 3: can offer parents. They're looking at hair color, they're not

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Speaker 3: there yet. They're looking at height, they're not good at

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Speaker 3: that there yet, excuse me. They're looking at propensity to obesity,

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Speaker 3: they're looking at visual acuity. And the doctors there saying

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Speaker 3: that eventually they'll be able to get a profile for many,

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Speaker 3: many genetic traits.

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Speaker 2: And forty years ago IVF wouldn't. It was just at

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Speaker 2: the very beginning of it, and a lot of people,

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Speaker 2: or the evangelical movement in America is pushing back on

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Speaker 2: IVF over there now. So how's this going to wash

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Speaker 2: in the future?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely.

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Speaker 3: Ethicist over there saying, you know, this is it's happening

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Speaker 3: in a business situation. If there's demand, clinics will offer it.

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Speaker 3: And that's right. Who's going to stop them exactly? And

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Speaker 3: we're hearing really interesting stories out of the clinics over there,

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Speaker 3: famous singers coming in and saying, can you make our

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Speaker 3: child a famous singer?

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Speaker 1: Oh wow? Which they're not there yet, because you wondered too.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you'd like to protect your child against everything,

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Speaker 1: but by taking all human traits away, you know, take

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Speaker 1: maybe bipolar or maybe you take a propensity you know,

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Speaker 1: to depression, or you know, you don't. No one wants

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Speaker 1: their kids to suffer through anything, but you make away

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Speaker 1: being human.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely.

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Speaker 3: And I think the thing that really interested me is

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Speaker 3: one of the scientists that I spoke to spoke about

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Speaker 3: a number of different genes that they were looking at,

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Speaker 3: and they were thinking, we might be able to do

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Speaker 3: something with this, we might be able to do something

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Speaker 3: with that. But everything they identified seemed to have a downside.

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Speaker 3: My favorite story that I thought was so interesting and

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Speaker 3: that I thought is really what propelled me into writing

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Speaker 3: the novel was this case from Connecticut. It's a particular

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Speaker 3: gene mutation. It's called LRP five, and it was a gentleman,

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Speaker 3: a young man, healthy fellow. He was in a car accident,

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Speaker 3: a really bad car accident. He should have been smashed

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Speaker 3: to smithereens. He went to the hospital. The radiologist said

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Speaker 3: he didn't have a broken bone. The radiologist was blown away.

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Speaker 3: He said, can I refer you to Yale where they

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Speaker 3: have a bone research unit. And they looked at this

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Speaker 3: man and they discovered that he had this genetic mutation

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Speaker 3: on this particular gene that I just named, and it

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Speaker 3: gave him super strong bones. And they studied his family

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Speaker 3: and it was a heritable trait, so many family members

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Speaker 3: had it, and everyone who had it had these unbreakable bones.

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Speaker 3: And the research is, you know, it's quite unusual to

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Speaker 3: see scientists saying things like unbreakable and comparing them to

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Speaker 3: superheroes and so forth. And they were really excited about

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Speaker 3: the implications for osteoporosis research. But the flip side was that, oh,

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Speaker 3: and I should just say, part of the part of

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Speaker 3: the traits that you get from this gene is like

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Speaker 3: a really strong jawbones, Rich Brown strong, Yeah, Chris, talk

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Speaker 3: to Chris Brown. Jaw your jawline. So you know what's

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Speaker 3: not to love strong bones.

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Speaker 1: Look strong jaw. Yeah, but they discovered.

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Speaker 3: That because their bones were so dense, they couldn't swim,

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Speaker 3: they couldn't float. So if you imagine a situation in

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Speaker 3: Australia where you're thinking, oh, oh great, seene editing strong bones,

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Speaker 3: kids won't break their bones, and then all of a

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Speaker 3: sudden you've got all these kids who were.

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Speaker 1: Who can't can't swing.

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Speaker 2: Maybe we should take brand and throw them into the water.

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Speaker 3: It spends a.

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Speaker 1: Lot of time theory.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, fascinating. You know what it's like. It's like Judge Dread,

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Speaker 2: the movie Judge Dread with Sylvester Salone and Amanda Sante.

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Speaker 2: Have you you, ladies, you haven't seen this movie. So

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Speaker 2: they form two super police officers.

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Speaker 1: And oh you mean that they're they're they're super like

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Speaker 1: a superbody.

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Speaker 2: But they're genetically made men. This is the future.

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Speaker 1: Can't swim though.

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Speaker 2: I think as your homework. As your homework, you two

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Speaker 2: should go and see Judge Dread because I think this

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Speaker 2: dovetails nicely into your book.

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Speaker 1: But it's fascinating, Jenny, as we're saying that the technology

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Speaker 1: will be there, it's our society. We have to work

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Speaker 1: out where we're going to push back.

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Speaker 2: That's it. Well, thank you for joining us. Get your

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Speaker 2: hands on inheritance now it all good, and get straight

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Speaker 2: down to Blockbuster and higher.

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Speaker 1: I'll get to a time machine first.

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Speaker 2: Brand now, if Cannon, thank you for joining us.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much