Speaker 1: It's in the news today, but it was actually on
Speaker 1: TV Reload the podcast last week ayby welcome back guys
Speaker 1: to TV Reload. My name's Benjamin Norris, and on this
Speaker 1: podcast I go behind the scenes with the biggest players
Speaker 1: in television. Each episode you will get a front row
Speaker 1: seat with content makers like executive producers, writers, editors, and
Speaker 1: casting agents, plus the talent that we see on our screens.
Speaker 1: TV Reload reloads the shows that you are currently watching
Speaker 1: and gives you a better insight into our television industry
Speaker 1: and our streaming services. Today on the podcast, I have
Speaker 1: Penny Winn, who is the executive producer of the scripted
Speaker 1: drama The Twelve, which reaches its conclusion this week on
Speaker 1: Foxtel and Binge. Over ten weeks, fans have been glued
Speaker 1: to their screens as startling revelations of a high profile
Speaker 1: murder trial have unfolded, alongside the stories of twelve jurors
Speaker 1: who are not only confronted with the grim details of
Speaker 1: the case, but with their own realities and struggles which
Speaker 1: are rev could be changed.
Speaker 2: Their lives forever.
Speaker 1: Penny has worked across some amazing shows like Wentworth, A
Speaker 1: Place to Call Home, Deadline, Gallipoli and so many other
Speaker 1: brilliant dramas that has Australian and international audiences not only
Speaker 1: enjoying but celebrating. Actors want to work with her, crews
Speaker 1: want to work with her, and writers know how much
Speaker 1: she values their hard work to make the characters we.
Speaker 2: See on our screens come to life.
Speaker 1: We will talk about The Twelve's journey from page to screen,
Speaker 1: if scripted drama is getting easier or harder to make,
Speaker 1: the pressure or constraints of delivering a certain amount of episodes,
Speaker 1: and what Penny thinks of the statistics, and what Penny
Speaker 1: thinks of the statistic that most of Australia believes per
Speaker 1: character Kate Lawson is innocent.
Speaker 2: However, let's get started with today's guest.
Speaker 1: I'd like to welcome industry legend Penny Win to TV reload.
Speaker 3: For a lot of people watching it, it would have resonated.
Speaker 2: The twelve is extensibly about a je sitting on a
Speaker 2: murder trial.
Speaker 3: I've always been very strong about portraying female violence on screen.
Speaker 3: Claire Spears was fourteen years old when she was murdered
Speaker 3: by Kate Lawson. Sometimes you tell stories that you've never
Speaker 3: told your family or people, you know, if she was
Speaker 3: strangled with her own school tie. I've always had interested
Speaker 3: in having strong female characters. The jury is everything, best
Speaker 3: form of storytelling. You want people to go away still
Speaker 3: talking about it.
Speaker 2: Hi, Penny, how are you?
Speaker 3: I'm very good? Thank you? Is it Ben or Benjamin?
Speaker 2: It's funny.
Speaker 1: I can work out how people know me based on
Speaker 1: how they say my name. So Ben is pretty much
Speaker 1: what most people call me. But I was on a
Speaker 1: reality show years ago where they called me Benjamin. So
Speaker 1: if I hear people screaming Benjamin, I think ah.
Speaker 3: I always like to ask, because I'm very much part
Speaker 3: of that school of realizing I've lived in. When I
Speaker 3: lived in London, I realized that what Ozzie's and keewis?
Speaker 3: Do you hear them being introduced to somebody and they'd
Speaker 3: go the English person go on, my name's Anthony or
Speaker 3: David or whatever it is, and we'd always go Dave
Speaker 3: or Tony or ant We'd immediately shorten it without even asking.
Speaker 1: So, well, you can call me anything you're like, No,
Speaker 1: be careful, We'll wait and see how the interview goes.
Speaker 1: You know, I have to say congratulations on the twelve.
Speaker 1: How long has this project been in your life for
Speaker 1: it was.
Speaker 3: I'd spoken to Hamish about it earlier in twenty twenty,
Speaker 3: not long I think after it all started. So the
Speaker 3: writer's room started in December in twenty twenty because I
Speaker 3: was in quarantine in New Zealand when I came back,
Speaker 3: so I remember that starting. So been it's been a while.
Speaker 3: It was a good long development period but a lot
Speaker 3: of writers, so a long time in development. But then
Speaker 3: once it started shooting, and it was a long shoot,
Speaker 3: they always go really quickly, even though it doesn't seem quickly.
Speaker 3: Suddenly you think, oh, we've got plenty of time, and
Speaker 3: then you get oh my god, there's like three weeks left.
Speaker 3: No changing.
Speaker 1: Now you have a bit of a process though, where
Speaker 1: you kind of have the team of writers together and
Speaker 1: get the project basically written before it's green lighted.
Speaker 2: Is that right?
Speaker 3: Basically the standard in Australia. A lot of it comes
Speaker 3: down to being state funded or green Australia funded, but
Speaker 3: basically before you green light, what you'd like from the
Speaker 3: producers is the first stage of development is a bible
Speaker 3: and if you can of the first and second script,
Speaker 3: so before you green light it, because I mean that's
Speaker 3: where everybody, so you can see you've got faith in it,
Speaker 3: you trust in the whole process, whatever else is, but
Speaker 3: that's normally for you green light that you have that
Speaker 3: to start with.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm sure that this project has been under your
Speaker 1: skin for a very long time. Is it a bit
Speaker 1: bittersweet to have the series finale happening this week?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 4: It's always bitter sweet, it really is, but a sweet
Speaker 4: when you spent so much time on any project you've
Speaker 4: worked with, there are so many stages of the anticipation
Speaker 4: and then oh my god, they're more anticipation.
Speaker 3: It's like the writing, and then it's great, but then
Speaker 3: it's pre production. Then production starts happening and you go
Speaker 3: through all that, and then that finishes and there's edit,
Speaker 3: and then it goes to air and so it can
Speaker 3: keep on living for a long time, and then when
Speaker 3: the final one goes, where you go, that's actually the final,
Speaker 3: almost the final, full stop because in the world we
Speaker 3: live in now with streaming, screaming, everything going on, but
Speaker 3: you know it always is, and then you look forward
Speaker 3: to the next one.
Speaker 1: Do you have a person in your life that you
Speaker 1: will show an episode, someone maybe not from the industry,
Speaker 1: but someone you show your wall.
Speaker 3: No I don't, Actually, no, I don't. Actually I've never
Speaker 3: done that. I'll say this here. But some of us
Speaker 3: do and some of us don't. Some of us watch
Speaker 3: it when it goes to air, and some of us
Speaker 3: have watched it so many times and we have our
Speaker 3: own thing of whatever it is, and we don't watch
Speaker 3: it go to air. And so I'm one of those
Speaker 3: ones who don't watch it go to air. But I
Speaker 3: will go on social media to see what people are
Speaker 3: saying about it and what all the movements are. But no,
Speaker 3: I don't.
Speaker 2: How hard is that to read?
Speaker 1: I mean, we tell the talent not to read the screen,
Speaker 1: but you know, the people who are behind the scenes,
Speaker 1: you know, it's just as personal, if not more personal
Speaker 1: to them. So how what is that relationship like when
Speaker 1: you are reading the audience reactions.
Speaker 3: I just think of it as a learning thing. It's
Speaker 3: further education and the world we live in with television
Speaker 3: because it and storytelling, you know, it's part of it.
Speaker 3: You don't use it to change what you think, but
Speaker 3: it can influence, and it's more to do with movement
Speaker 3: and the zeitgeist and what's happening at the time, and
Speaker 3: you need to have feedback from all sorts, and you
Speaker 3: get it from industry, you get from people you know
Speaker 3: who watched it, but going online and reviews and just
Speaker 3: seeing how the waves and how people are responding. I
Speaker 3: think it's really important you don't take it to heart.
Speaker 3: You can't take it to heart, because we all know.
Speaker 3: In terms of social media, more people are inclined to
Speaker 3: if they're angry, to write on social media. And back
Speaker 3: in the day when I started in television, it used
Speaker 3: to be coming in and reading the overnight. It's not
Speaker 3: the ratings, but what the people who complained rung up about,
Speaker 3: and so you read all those and that's normally. That
Speaker 3: hasn't changed. It's just more people read it.
Speaker 1: Is there anything that you've read online that stayed with
Speaker 1: you that's maybe worked for the better, like you've read
Speaker 1: something gone off?
Speaker 3: There have been times, particularly say on Wentworth there I
Speaker 3: would read because it was sometimes characters and because it
Speaker 3: played the characters. But sometimes characters hit differently than you,
Speaker 3: and then you think they resonate much larger, whether it's
Speaker 3: because they hate the character or they really like it.
Speaker 3: If you're working like ongoing series or you're still writing
Speaker 3: as it's going to air or shooting whatever it is
Speaker 3: that can that does. I'm not to say it can
Speaker 3: it does. You go, okay, okay, you don't change it
Speaker 3: for what they say, which are very aware of the
Speaker 3: impact it's having, and that can influence sometimes, you know,
Speaker 3: because you know, socially things change. Finding out some things
Speaker 3: that have impact with people, whether it's gender I don't
Speaker 3: want to say gender politics, but things like that, and
Speaker 3: you go, okay, we've gotta be careful with this for
Speaker 3: things like I've always been very strong about portraying female
Speaker 3: violence on screen is the reason for a show to exist,
Speaker 3: So paying attention to those those will also you go, look,
Speaker 3: we're not doing that. Let's move away and find another
Speaker 3: way to tell that story.
Speaker 2: That's sure.
Speaker 1: Went Worth was really quite interesting, though. I mean, you guys,
Speaker 1: really you stitched us up, like sometimes you'd make us
Speaker 1: love a character only for you to make us haay.
Speaker 2: Them, you know, I think.
Speaker 3: I mean, we gave the clue in the very first
Speaker 3: episode of the very first series. That was the clue
Speaker 3: that this Wentworth wasn't going to be what you thought
Speaker 3: when we killed off Governor Jackson Catherin McClements, who was
Speaker 3: great and wonderful and she was the only one you
Speaker 3: who knew going in, and she did it. And we've
Speaker 3: had her on all the marketing and in the end
Speaker 3: the shop. I remember being a lot of previews where
Speaker 3: people were really shocked, and so that's what I said, Well,
Speaker 3: if we can do then that ball is going to
Speaker 3: keep rolling. Just you know, don't get attached to anybody.
Speaker 3: There were a couple of characters I knew that I
Speaker 3: was never we were never going to kill off, but
Speaker 3: they shall remain nameless but pretty obvious.
Speaker 1: Well, I absolutely love that Alfred Hitchcock quote, which I
Speaker 1: know that you've shared often, which is what is drama
Speaker 1: but life with the dull bits cut out.
Speaker 2: I love that quote.
Speaker 3: Yeah, funny. I was thinking about that today because it's
Speaker 3: pretty much true. That's exactly what it is. You know,
Speaker 3: in the world that we live in now with television viewing,
Speaker 3: with how people dive into it and all the places
Speaker 3: they can go, our audiences are smarter and smarter and smarter,
Speaker 3: and the bar is raised higher and higher and higher.
Speaker 3: So in any development, any story you choose to green
Speaker 3: light and go ahead with, always been complicent of the
Speaker 3: viewers being really smart. There's nothing wrong with tropes, but
Speaker 3: it's working with them against them to them. Because our
Speaker 3: viewers are really smart, you don't need to tell them
Speaker 3: what's going on. They want to work it out themselves.
Speaker 3: So I think that's a really big part of development
Speaker 3: making great shows.
Speaker 2: Well, particularly with The Twelve.
Speaker 1: Like I have to admit it is the intelligent man's
Speaker 1: scripted drama. I shouldn't say, man, you know that's the
Speaker 1: that's the phrasing, but this show is the intelligent person's
Speaker 1: scripted content. Like I was watching it and it wasn't
Speaker 1: a show you could have your phone in your hand,
Speaker 1: that is for sure.
Speaker 3: It was definitent. I mean, as everybody knows it was
Speaker 3: adapted from a Belgian series, The Twelve, and the writers
Speaker 3: and the people who sat in the room and the
Speaker 3: script producer and everybody talking about it was really really
Speaker 3: really wanted to make sure that it was an adaptation.
Speaker 3: It was an Australian adaptation. So you go for the
Speaker 3: sense and the sensibility of the show and what the core,
Speaker 3: heart and core of it is. But I think they've
Speaker 3: done an unbelievably beautiful job of adapting it to Australian,
Speaker 3: being reflective and representative of Australia, the streets that we
Speaker 3: walk around as the people we see. There was nothing
Speaker 3: there that was inserted or there was no techs, no
Speaker 3: tech boxing, boxing ticks, oh my god, there was none
Speaker 3: of that. It was all organic and true. But it
Speaker 3: was wherever you go, that's the world that you see,
Speaker 3: the people that are on the screen so and the
Speaker 3: stories that resonate with Australian So they didn't. They thought
Speaker 3: they did a really, really beautiful job.
Speaker 1: It's such an honor to chat with you. I mean,
Speaker 1: I've been in your audience for so long, watching so
Speaker 1: many shows. I've always wanted to ask you, particularly, what
Speaker 1: is it that you love about scripture drama.
Speaker 3: It's storytelling, isn't it. It's just storytelling from the moment
Speaker 3: we're born all the way through our lives, you know,
Speaker 3: whether it's nursery tales or sitting in kindy or for me,
Speaker 3: it was like going to the library and reading every
Speaker 3: book in the library. It takes you to a place
Speaker 3: that you couldn't be yourself. You can go away from
Speaker 3: the world you live in if it's bad or it's good.
Speaker 3: You can walk a mile, well not a real but
Speaker 3: you know, you can walk a mile in the shoes
Speaker 3: of somebody else that you may never see. You may
Speaker 3: never know, you can experience other like other cultures, you
Speaker 3: can understand and see and people can see themselves on screen.
Speaker 3: It's a way of telling the story of the world
Speaker 3: in a way that we can access. There's a passion
Speaker 3: that goes behind storytelling and what you see on screen,
Speaker 3: the amount of people. I just think it can be
Speaker 3: an escape you can Entertainment can also provide a way
Speaker 3: for you to learn things that you didn't know, that
Speaker 3: you didn't know or you want to know more of,
Speaker 3: and it's still entertaining. I just love it. As you
Speaker 3: can tell, I might just get really passionate about it,
Speaker 3: and I get listening to recently culture and Australia and
Speaker 3: the importance of storytelling, the importance I grew up at
Speaker 3: a time as many Australians of a certain age did
Speaker 3: and New Zealanders where we didn't see our own stories
Speaker 3: on screen where and the music that we heard was
Speaker 3: England or America, and we had people doing cover versions
Speaker 3: of it, and all our shows were from England and
Speaker 3: the UK, and all the bands and the music and
Speaker 3: the TV and the movies that came up and we
Speaker 3: saw ourselves on screen. They were huge because we were
Speaker 3: seeing ourselves on screen. And so right now, I just
Speaker 3: think it is really important for Australian storytelling because a
Speaker 3: lot of people don't remember when we didn't see it,
Speaker 3: and how important it is for a culture, for people,
Speaker 3: for communication, for storytelling, to see ourselves on screen, and
Speaker 3: particularly now when we've all changed, because we're not we
Speaker 3: are truly multicultural. There are so many stories and people
Speaker 3: to be represented. It's even more important now because that's
Speaker 3: our world that we live in now and scripted drama
Speaker 3: under entertainment can invite us into those worlds.
Speaker 2: Oh. Absolutely, it was a bit of a rave.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, but.
Speaker 1: I would expect nothing less and if you didn't do that,
Speaker 1: I'd be disappointed. So I mean, for me, I remember
Speaker 1: being a child and hearing stories read to me by
Speaker 1: my mum, like The Far Away Tree, and I always
Speaker 1: loved that feeling when you just connect into a different
Speaker 1: world and then connecting to what you're talking about. I
Speaker 1: have seen that evolution for us here in Australia to
Speaker 1: be able to see ourselves more on screen, and that's
Speaker 1: the currency, that's the currency between us and the content
Speaker 1: is to be able to see ourselves.
Speaker 2: I think when that.
Speaker 3: It's super really important and we because we see it,
Speaker 3: just understanding that if it goes away, we won't see it,
Speaker 3: and what the impact that we'll have on how we
Speaker 3: perceive our own country and how others perceive us. We
Speaker 3: are different and if we want to each of our
Speaker 3: countries are different. If we want to perpetuate that, we
Speaker 3: have to. We have to see it on screen.
Speaker 1: I keep saying it's about our mental health, like we
Speaker 1: need to be reflected as a society on screen. The
Speaker 1: government needs to reinvest more money into our homegrown content
Speaker 1: because it's vital, you know. I feel passionate about it,
Speaker 1: and I think that there is some responsibility, some accolade
Speaker 1: in some of the brilliant scriptwriting that has happened that
Speaker 1: has allowed us to feel normalized.
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I consult to both Boxtel and SBS and
Speaker 3: both of those roles. You know, there amazing talent out
Speaker 3: there that you want to move from there to their
Speaker 3: to there and you can and the stories and the
Speaker 3: writers and the creators that are coming out of so
Speaker 3: many communities with amazing stories to see for themselves, but
Speaker 3: for us to hear and see it's pretty vibrant. It's
Speaker 3: just as you say, getting the support behind it to
Speaker 3: lift everyone. I mean, there's that old cliche, the rioting
Speaker 3: tide lifts all boats, but it's actually kind of true.
Speaker 1: It's true, it's true, it's true, And if we could,
Speaker 1: can we talk about these sort of interwoven themes when
Speaker 1: it comes to your back catalog of work, is there
Speaker 1: a signature, Penny when look and feel that audiences have
Speaker 1: come to expect with you.
Speaker 3: When we first started commissioning, the last way with Fox
Speaker 3: Tell was lifting up production values, the look, the quality
Speaker 3: of the writing. So because the shows that we were
Speaker 3: showing were HBO and Showtime and BBC, and we knew
Speaker 3: that Australia could do it, so that was the first part.
Speaker 3: And then it's the writing. So it's always We've always
Speaker 3: been a lot on development and writing, and I think
Speaker 3: the writing is the first start in the writer's room
Speaker 3: and the authentic of the voices, and that's increasing as
Speaker 3: time goes on. As well. I've always had interested in
Speaker 3: having strong female characters, and that's not at the disservice
Speaker 3: of male characters. But there's no point having strong female
Speaker 3: characters and leads if the men aren't strong as well,
Speaker 3: so that's always been a big one. And location, the
Speaker 3: locations being a character in the show. And yeah, just
Speaker 3: like that, the quality of it all, particularly in the writing.
Speaker 3: I think, you know, writers they're not valued as highly
Speaker 3: as they could be, particularly monetarily so, but yeah, strong
Speaker 3: characters and the intelligence of the viewers has always been big.
Speaker 3: Whoever the viewers are, they're intelligent when they're watching. That's
Speaker 3: why I always impress upon writers and productions, always think
Speaker 3: of them as intelligent and smart.
Speaker 1: It's so good these days when you can see our
Speaker 1: shows up against the international shows we now are on
Speaker 1: the streaming platform where we get these little boxes right
Speaker 1: and the little trailer starts to play, and if you
Speaker 1: look at the content that we're making at the moment
Speaker 1: up against what is happening around the world, you know
Speaker 1: where at the same level, which is crazy to me.
Speaker 1: Before we did have some good scripts that just didn't
Speaker 1: look the same. But these days you get in content
Speaker 1: that's just as good as anything.
Speaker 3: Petition competition does that, as we know, with anything, whether
Speaker 3: it's closed shoes, food, restaurants, bars, competition, it's really good.
Speaker 3: And so as we've increased, you know, we went from
Speaker 3: freedomware networks only to pay cable satellite, then the streamers
Speaker 3: coming in and so it just lifts the game. It
Speaker 3: just as constantly the bar is constantly rising in our
Speaker 3: world and knowing we have to sit on the same
Speaker 3: platforms as the best in the world. That's also and
Speaker 3: you know, and internationally in both Australia and New Zealand,
Speaker 3: they there's such a huge respect for the crews and
Speaker 3: the writers and the people who were work here. I
Speaker 3: think it's also cheaper to be honest, but I think
Speaker 3: you know, value and the level of professionalism and quality
Speaker 3: and creativity and Australia is huge, So that's yeah, the
Speaker 3: competition has helped and it's also made the people that
Speaker 3: write the checks and Australia go okay, we know it's
Speaker 3: go And as that lifts up, there's a lot more
Speaker 3: confidence and less risk averse decisions.
Speaker 1: Well, I think that there's something also very moody about
Speaker 1: the content that you make. Immediately you are transported into
Speaker 1: these characters' worlds, and I feel like with the stories
Speaker 1: that you've been telling that the characters are in it
Speaker 1: are as real to me as people in my own life.
Speaker 3: That's been hugely important, I know in many a writer's room,
Speaker 3: and with particularly with ongoing series. I mean, if you've
Speaker 3: been in a writer's room where anybody out there has
Speaker 3: the one thing is that the rules are what happens
Speaker 3: in the room stays in the room, and so people
Speaker 3: are really honest about things. Sometimes you tell stories that
Speaker 3: you've never told your family or people you know. And
Speaker 3: so whenever you watch a great drama on tally wherever
Speaker 3: it's from, if it's really great and the dialogue is
Speaker 3: great and the characters are fully evolved and they're talking
Speaker 3: and you believe the dialogue, that's because in the writer's
Speaker 3: room there's been an authenticity and the truth and the
Speaker 3: stories and the things that are being told, and you
Speaker 3: can smell it, you can taste it, you can see it,
Speaker 3: you know, and that's really important.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean I can watch just to see.
Speaker 1: I watched a scene from one of your shows today
Speaker 1: and off the top of my head, I can't remember
Speaker 1: which one it was. It's the latest one that's on
Speaker 1: SBS that you've just done. Why can't I think of that?
Speaker 3: True Colors?
Speaker 1: True Colors. There's a little clip on YouTube and it's
Speaker 1: so weird because you just watch a moment that's happening.
Speaker 1: You know, you're watching, you've seen that's happening, but immediately
Speaker 1: you feel like you are a fly on the wall.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was That was one of the magic moments
Speaker 3: in my career was working with the people that made
Speaker 3: True Colors because the level of authenticity was more than
Speaker 3: one hundred percent, you know, and I can take little
Speaker 3: credits for that. I mean right as it was fun year,
Speaker 3: and it was it was Warren Williams and Erica Glynn
Speaker 3: and Stephen McGregor who were in the community, and so
Speaker 3: it's really authentic. And that's amazing because when it is
Speaker 3: like that and there's so much respect showing the scenes
Speaker 3: that you're talking about, you can see that because of it,
Speaker 3: it sounds really important.
Speaker 1: Well, you kind of you're downplaying that a little bit
Speaker 1: because at the same time, your names on the project
Speaker 1: and people want to side settle up against people that
Speaker 1: understand that you know, you've been sought out or you've
Speaker 1: found those people, and that's happened for a reason because
Speaker 1: you're all believing the same mantra when it comes to
Speaker 1: the art of storytelling.
Speaker 3: Yes, and it's the joy of the career is working
Speaker 3: with other people who feel the same way. It's the
Speaker 3: alchemy when all of the parts work together to make
Speaker 3: something great. It doesn't happen with everything, but when it does,
Speaker 3: it's magic, and that's what you see on the screen.
Speaker 1: I think the work that you've been telling is the
Speaker 1: finest quality of austrain and storytelling and something to be
Speaker 1: really really proud of. Is it getting harder to make
Speaker 1: scripted drama or is it getting easier with streaming platforms.
Speaker 3: No, it's not harder. It's not easier, but it's not harder.
Speaker 3: There will continue to be challenges. The one thing about
Speaker 3: the scripted television industry or the television industry as a whole,
Speaker 3: is now again a cliche, but the only constant is change,
Speaker 3: and it's always changing. It's whether it's on a a
Speaker 3: company level when people are buying out companies, or people
Speaker 3: are moving from place to pace, the commissioning editors or
Speaker 3: commissioners are moving around, or the new streamer coming in,
Speaker 3: or laws of change, or writers in Australia have moved overseas,
Speaker 3: or directors or actors. It's constantly changing, so that has increased.
Speaker 3: But a good story is a good story, and if
Speaker 3: you find that good story. It is normally made, you
Speaker 3: know it, and then people will find it. So I
Speaker 3: don't think it's any harder. I think you'll have people
Speaker 3: who producers listen to the girl it's so hard to
Speaker 3: find money, And yes it is, but it's never been
Speaker 3: easy either or not in my time. You know, it
Speaker 3: may be back in network days when deals were done
Speaker 3: over lunches, but great shows will continue to be made,
Speaker 3: great talent will continue to be found.
Speaker 1: I think with The Twelve in particular, when you talk
Speaker 1: about acting and the content, it all sort of came together,
Speaker 1: and this show is just so fascinating.
Speaker 2: It's a feast for the audience. It It was.
Speaker 3: A beast in terms of the size. It's ten hours,
Speaker 3: the number of cast main is huge, and then you've
Speaker 3: got all the others who aren't made, but the secondary
Speaker 3: characters and the guest and then you know, you've got
Speaker 3: two parallel arts going. You've got the crime, which is
Speaker 3: fascinating and it has to be written really, really well,
Speaker 3: and that one had to be cast really well because
Speaker 3: Kate you had to be sympathetic, empathetic and believe maybe no,
Speaker 3: and then you had to go yet to find the
Speaker 3: moments where cool and that's where Kate Moulbany was incredible.
Speaker 3: And then you've got the jury, the jury, and there's
Speaker 3: you know, there's fourteen of them to start off with
Speaker 3: and navigating that and build that, and that was I
Speaker 3: would say. So it was a hard ask in the
Speaker 3: first episode because there was a lot coming onto the
Speaker 3: screen of for people to take on board. But so
Speaker 3: it was the beast that way. But the writers the
Speaker 3: directors did an incredible job. Many actors. There were the
Speaker 3: breads of talent from you know, the incredibly well known
Speaker 3: charismatic Sam Neil to the younger ones who this is
Speaker 3: their first big gig or people didn't know them and
Speaker 3: they've been acting in smaller roles and to take on that.
Speaker 3: And then they were all looking together almost ensemble, because
Speaker 3: so many of the courtroom scenes it's just them and
Speaker 3: day after day. So it was a beast but amazing
Speaker 3: how it turned out. And there's a lot of story
Speaker 3: in there. There's a lot of story. I think if
Speaker 3: people went back and watched it again, they would so
Speaker 3: pick up on the things they didn't notice the first time,
Speaker 3: to see how wonderful ly the characters have built just
Speaker 3: little little things in there with Georgina that slow build
Speaker 3: with what's happening in her world, or Corey and Alexis,
Speaker 3: and Alexis and his brother and the dad. You know,
Speaker 3: all these little things are just there to go their
Speaker 3: characters and then the tying up of this is our world.
Speaker 3: If we were to commit a crime, or we're to
Speaker 3: be on a jury, this would be us.
Speaker 2: That's how you feel as an audience.
Speaker 1: You feel like that, are you worried that at this
Speaker 1: point where you've now story boarded this many characters, that
Speaker 1: you were worried that audiences would get too confused with
Speaker 1: too many characters?
Speaker 2: Like what was your pull through with feeling that contures?
Speaker 3: Remember I've said now, always assume our viewer is intelligent.
Speaker 3: Obviously you have to be aware of that, so you
Speaker 3: know there are changes through scripting and then when the
Speaker 3: directors rehearsed with the actors, and then an edit, and
Speaker 3: you know there are things you know, sound and all
Speaker 3: these things you can do to help lift the drama
Speaker 3: it needs to be. I think we all knew that
Speaker 3: with that many characters and storylines, we had to be
Speaker 3: really be careful. So we're connizant of it. But the
Speaker 3: bottom line is you had to get the story there.
Speaker 3: You know, you had to you had to make you
Speaker 3: had to have the crime, and you had to have
Speaker 3: those jurors in there. So yeah, it was I want
Speaker 3: to say, risky, a little bit risky, I think because
Speaker 3: it's it's quite dense and in the world that we
Speaker 3: live in now, with so many distractions on television, it's
Speaker 3: quite a big ass. But I think it was so
Speaker 3: beautifully crafted and people were trusting what they were seeing,
Speaker 3: particularly because of the actors and Fiona Donovan did a
Speaker 3: main amazing production design. I think they trusted it because
Speaker 3: they were going, look at them, look at them, how
Speaker 3: good they look? At the caliber? This is good? You know,
Speaker 3: there was so Yeah. I think it was a long
Speaker 3: winded answer to your question.
Speaker 1: Sorry, no, it's I mean, you're going to have to
Speaker 1: give these answers because they aren't short answers. Because this
Speaker 1: story's magnitude, the tapestry gets lit all together requires information
Speaker 1: and that's why TV like what you make is good
Speaker 1: because it isn't all fed to you. You do have
Speaker 1: to think and you have time to talk about it
Speaker 1: with your friends, which I also think is a part
Speaker 1: of the magic.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean, it's changed, and when Netflix
Speaker 3: first became huge and arrived in Australia, we all just
Speaker 3: loved the binge. I mean just we just all loved
Speaker 3: the binge. It was like, oh my god, we can
Speaker 3: watch tenets No, this is so amazing. And then over
Speaker 3: time both Netflix and others have gone see Game of Thrones.
Speaker 3: Help that was like, actually, some of the shows will
Speaker 3: just put out week on week to build up the anticipation,
Speaker 3: but also for the talking. You're talking about people talking
Speaker 3: and discussing theories and being excited and then getting excited
Speaker 3: about watching the next one. And sometimes when there's a
Speaker 3: lot in it, like the twelve, that week of colgitating
Speaker 3: on it, thinking about it and if you're talking about
Speaker 3: it with people going did you see that? When do
Speaker 3: you think about that?
Speaker 1: So?
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think the week on week is also
Speaker 3: really helpful.
Speaker 1: Well, the characters at times are really quite complicated. You know,
Speaker 1: they really challenged us as an audience the whole way
Speaker 1: through this show with choices that kept making that were
Speaker 1: quite frustrating. I feel like that is the currency with audiences.
Speaker 1: We want to see ourselves in story because we are
Speaker 1: complicated and we make it a.
Speaker 3: Yes and all complicated in so many different ways. I mean,
Speaker 3: what character has resonated for you?
Speaker 2: Oh, I mean for me.
Speaker 1: I don't know why because it doesn't have anything to
Speaker 1: do with my life. But Brooks Satchwell's character and the
Speaker 1: fact that she allowed this man to manipulate her, it
Speaker 1: doesn't obviously strike a chord with me, and it doesn't
Speaker 1: have something to do with something that's happened in my life.
Speaker 1: But I think we all feel like someone's undermining I
Speaker 1: don't know if I'm going off on a weird tangent here,
Speaker 1: but I.
Speaker 2: Felt some Yeah, I've just felt that particular story.
Speaker 3: I think it's because it's as resonates hugely in our
Speaker 3: current world. Family violence is an incredibly big issue and
Speaker 3: there's so much emotions, but you know, coercive control is
Speaker 3: one of the bigger issues, and the fact that there's
Speaker 3: now legislation in some states to understand that it's actually
Speaker 3: a crime. And she didn't allow herself to be manipulated.
Speaker 3: She was manipulated to a place where it was part
Speaker 3: of her world, and she had the children, so it's
Speaker 3: protecting the children. And Brooke played it so subtly and
Speaker 3: a lot of it was just in her face and
Speaker 3: the reaction and what was going on. So it wasn't
Speaker 3: throwing it in the face of the viewer, but for
Speaker 3: a lot of people watching it, it would have resonated
Speaker 3: because even if they hadn't experienced it, they've heard of
Speaker 3: it or they've seen it in other things. And so
Speaker 3: I think she played it quite beautifully because I think
Speaker 3: that happens. That's more common in reaction than you would think. So,
Speaker 3: and each of the stories I think with the other
Speaker 3: characters were like that, like the one that you don't
Speaker 3: think is a big story, but you know the dad
Speaker 3: with his daughter and she's been slightly rebellious, and so
Speaker 3: of course that was very similar to what was happening
Speaker 3: with Clear. And he was hearing the dad talking and
Speaker 3: I was saying, oh my god, I'm like Nathan. And
Speaker 3: so you saw his slow change because he was a
Speaker 3: juror in a case that was similar and heat changed.
Speaker 3: And so there are little bit moments where the cameras
Speaker 3: on him and he wouldn't do much, but his eyes
Speaker 3: would go like this. So those little subtle things help
Speaker 3: to build the atmosphere and make people, I think, more
Speaker 3: malleable to hearing and seeing what they were seeing. Sorry,
Speaker 3: I just told you how to think, didn't I.
Speaker 1: No, because I think you helped me with that. But
Speaker 1: I mean that's what this show is. I mean we
Speaker 1: should be talking about it like that.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: I think that in some ways, when we're growing up,
Speaker 1: we think things happen in a straight line or that
Speaker 1: could never happen to me. I mean, I'd never be
Speaker 1: in a relationship that's violent. I'd never let someone manipulate me.
Speaker 1: But the subtlety of that and how we can find
Speaker 1: ourselves in situations where people are manipulating us is so gradual.
Speaker 2: It's so it.
Speaker 3: Starts from love. It starts from love. That's where it starts.
Speaker 3: I mean a lot of it starts with love. Vombans
Speaker 3: and then you want to go back to the love bombing.
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's a dark subject matter, but for it
Speaker 3: being out in the open is really helpful.
Speaker 1: Getting into what we were just saying. You know, I
Speaker 1: felt like that this series, you gave the characters time
Speaker 1: to breathe, you know, all the while still gripping us
Speaker 1: as an audience. Was that deliberate? Were you deliberately trying
Speaker 1: to give.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you have to. You have to have breathing moments
Speaker 3: in anything you do, and you do it in such
Speaker 3: a way that it just gives it this time to process,
Speaker 3: and it's subtle what you do. You have to have
Speaker 3: breathing moments, and you have to have moments where people
Speaker 3: can sit in the moment. So because you know there
Speaker 3: are sitting moments that are really important and breathing moments
Speaker 3: that are really important.
Speaker 1: Is there a pressure to deliver a certain amount of
Speaker 1: episodes when it comes to signing off on a series?
Speaker 1: I mean, how did you come to ten episodes?
Speaker 3: Again? The world has changed. Our distraction levels are really high.
Speaker 3: I think if you were to do any research, you'd
Speaker 3: find that even find a show that we love and
Speaker 3: we're glory in getting past two or three episode, it's
Speaker 3: really hard because something else comes up and you always
Speaker 3: think you're going to go back to it and you don't.
Speaker 3: And so you know, eight or ten. Eight probably is
Speaker 3: the one that we would go, Yeah, that's good. You know,
Speaker 3: it's longer than the sex. You know, it's a longer story.
Speaker 3: But you're also having to think about where it sits
Speaker 3: in the PlantForm, people's attention, what they used to and
Speaker 3: whatever else it is. So yeah, you do think about
Speaker 3: it and it's also for international sales, you know, the
Speaker 3: production companies and getting the international financing. You've got to
Speaker 3: think about what's what they want out there on the
Speaker 3: international market as well. And you know, too short and
Speaker 3: unless you're a British company, too short and it's hard.
Speaker 3: You've got to fill up schedules and have things. And
Speaker 3: so it is something that I've really thought about. And
Speaker 3: is a story? Do you have enough story for four
Speaker 3: at six? E's eight at ten but the twelve there
Speaker 3: were at least twelve stories.
Speaker 1: How did you get Sam Neil to say yes? Is
Speaker 1: there a certain framing that is required?
Speaker 3: Well, you need to talk to the amazing Kirsty McGregor.
Speaker 3: It's the casting agents. And the agents are the ones
Speaker 3: that you know, I mean producers, you know them, and
Speaker 3: Ian Colly had worked with Sam, so that's always helpful.
Speaker 3: But when it comes or so to you know, they're
Speaker 3: very busy. The SAMs of the world are really, really,
Speaker 3: really busy. So it also has to fit in with
Speaker 3: traveling and dinosaurs and does it fit in and rest time.
Speaker 3: So that's how it works well.
Speaker 1: As we come to a conclusion with the series, did
Speaker 1: you feel that there was a pressure to tie off
Speaker 1: all of these characters with proper endings or proper resolutions.
Speaker 3: Well, it's yes and no. It's a slice of life.
Speaker 3: It's not a it's a slice of life. They're going
Speaker 3: to go on with their lives. We don't know what
Speaker 3: their lives are going to be and how it's going
Speaker 3: to be like except for the crime, there had to
Speaker 3: be some form of resolution. I think the best form
Speaker 3: of storytelling, whether you go to see a play or
Speaker 3: a movie or whatever else it is, you want people
Speaker 3: to go away still talking about it. You want people
Speaker 3: to be thinking about it, so it's like it doesn't end,
Speaker 3: It doesn't finish, as story lives on on the consciousness.
Speaker 3: So with all of them, their lives will go. We
Speaker 3: won't know what their lives out. We can have a
Speaker 3: good to think about it. You think it might be that,
Speaker 3: It might be that, so you get some resolution, if
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. But if you tie it
Speaker 3: all up at the end, don't you think it's too
Speaker 3: neat to neat a bow?
Speaker 2: Well, I don't like it like that, to be honest
Speaker 2: with you.
Speaker 1: I can think of my favorite show of all time
Speaker 1: is Love My Way, and I often think about what
Speaker 1: Frankie and Julia and Charlie and all these characters are
Speaker 1: still doing because I mean, I'm sure that just like
Speaker 1: us in our real world, there's still facing struggle and
Speaker 1: there is no resolution.
Speaker 3: They'll be different struggles, they'll be different with different people,
Speaker 3: all that kind of thing, and so they still exist. Therefore,
Speaker 3: their lives are still being low whereas if you tie
Speaker 3: it up, it stops there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it doesn't feel real.
Speaker 3: No, it doesn't feel real.
Speaker 1: Which I think audiences will be less satisfying because we
Speaker 1: will need a resolution to the core case, which we're
Speaker 1: going to.
Speaker 5: If you've developed and scripted and written and acted the
Speaker 5: character as well, whoever's watching will have their own take
Speaker 5: on who they are, and they understand you they are
Speaker 5: and they believe their responsors to things, so they will invent,
Speaker 5: you know, if they want to their own where it
Speaker 5: will go.
Speaker 1: I love the question in this series that ultimately has
Speaker 1: been dividing its fans, which will obviously, you know, we'll
Speaker 1: find out at the end, did Kate laws and murder
Speaker 1: her niece.
Speaker 2: Claire in Cold Blood?
Speaker 1: And then if you look at what's happening online, the
Speaker 1: jury is still out because according to Twitter, seventy five
Speaker 1: percent of Australians believe that Kate is not guilty of
Speaker 1: this unthinkable crime.
Speaker 2: Good on them.
Speaker 3: I can't say anything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because everything leads to more Yeah, yeah, yeah, all.
Speaker 3: I can tell you see where hours and hours and
Speaker 3: hours and hours and hours of discussion about it.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm just so excited about the final piece of
Speaker 1: the twelve because I haven't seen it myself. Oh heaven no,
Speaker 1: I've been previewing. I previewed up to episode nine and
Speaker 1: had finished it a few weeks ago, and so the
Speaker 1: weight has been killing me.
Speaker 3: There's some great they have been the whole way through,
Speaker 3: but there's some great performances. I do think that, you know,
Speaker 3: Kate and Sam when they have their twofers and the
Speaker 3: framing and the lighting and the camera work on it,
Speaker 3: some of it's just like artwork. There's some really great performance,
Speaker 3: isn't it. Well.
Speaker 1: I kind of didn't want to watch the final piece
Speaker 1: talking to you, because then I still have this thirst,
Speaker 1: along with the rest of Australigay, to get that piece
Speaker 1: of the puzzle that I so need. For anyone that
Speaker 1: has been on this journey, they will feel it as
Speaker 1: well the same way I do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, when the moments happened. You have to go to
Speaker 3: a dark place to really understand what it is in
Speaker 3: the place that you're sitting.
Speaker 1: So, yeah, Well, the last question I ask you is
Speaker 1: so question I ask everyone that's joined the podcast over
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty episodes that I've had of TV
Speaker 1: reload going behind the scenes of shows, what is something
Speaker 1: from behind the scenes of the twelve something we didn't
Speaker 1: see that we won't see, kind of behind the scenes
Speaker 1: tasty morsel from your experience working on this show.
Speaker 3: So one of the biggest things was and it's not
Speaker 3: really naughty, it was just trying to work out how
Speaker 3: you prosecute a crime when there's nobody. It's a biggie.
Speaker 3: Think of Teacher's pitch. You know it's a biggie for you.
Speaker 2: Well, fascinating.
Speaker 1: I mean that's where I think, you know, Teacher's Pet
Speaker 1: was a real turning point for storytelling in a way,
Speaker 1: becacause it really shone a light on a category that
Speaker 1: we had no idea that we'd be so successful. I mean,
Speaker 1: people are loving true crime because they love to solve,
Speaker 1: they love to feel like they're a.
Speaker 3: Part of Yes, yeah, and particularly like it being sold.
Speaker 3: There's nothing more frustrating than watching adoptu series and get
Speaker 3: to the end and they haven't sold it and it's
Speaker 3: all wasted my time.
Speaker 1: I just want to say thank you for being so
Speaker 1: generous with your time and for being able to tell
Speaker 1: me some of your stories, because I've been in your
Speaker 1: audience for so long, and what a joy it has
Speaker 1: been to be able to unpack some of this stuff
Speaker 1: with you.
Speaker 3: So thank you, well, no, thank you, Ben. I always
Speaker 3: loved talking to people are enthusiastic about storytelling, so that's great.
Speaker 3: Thank you.