WEBVTT - EXECUTIVE PRODUCER UNPACKS FOXTEL'S 'THE TWELVE!' 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:01.720 It's in the news today, but it was actually on 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:06.160 TV Reload the podcast last week ayby welcome back guys 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:09.000 to TV Reload. My name's Benjamin Norris, and on this 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:12.080 podcast I go behind the scenes with the biggest players 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:15.520 in television. Each episode you will get a front row 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:20.119 seat with content makers like executive producers, writers, editors, and 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:23.800 casting agents, plus the talent that we see on our screens. 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:27.479 TV Reload reloads the shows that you are currently watching 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:30.600 and gives you a better insight into our television industry 0:00:30.760 --> 0:00:33.800 and our streaming services. Today on the podcast, I have 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:37.159 Penny Winn, who is the executive producer of the scripted 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:40.920 drama The Twelve, which reaches its conclusion this week on 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:44.760 Foxtel and Binge. Over ten weeks, fans have been glued 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:48.479 to their screens as startling revelations of a high profile 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:53.400 murder trial have unfolded, alongside the stories of twelve jurors 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:56.120 who are not only confronted with the grim details of 0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:59.600 the case, but with their own realities and struggles which 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:01.200 are rev could be changed. 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:02.080 Their lives forever. 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:06.680 Penny has worked across some amazing shows like Wentworth, A 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:10.080 Place to Call Home, Deadline, Gallipoli and so many other 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:14.920 brilliant dramas that has Australian and international audiences not only 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:19.000 enjoying but celebrating. Actors want to work with her, crews 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:21.880 want to work with her, and writers know how much 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:25.080 she values their hard work to make the characters we. 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:27.040 See on our screens come to life. 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:30.200 We will talk about The Twelve's journey from page to screen, 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:33.520 if scripted drama is getting easier or harder to make, 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:37.319 the pressure or constraints of delivering a certain amount of episodes, 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:40.880 and what Penny thinks of the statistics, and what Penny 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:44.120 thinks of the statistic that most of Australia believes per 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:46.280 character Kate Lawson is innocent. 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:49.040 However, let's get started with today's guest. 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:53.520 I'd like to welcome industry legend Penny Win to TV reload. 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:58.000 For a lot of people watching it, it would have resonated. 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:00.840 The twelve is extensibly about a je sitting on a 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:01.440 murder trial. 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:06.560 I've always been very strong about portraying female violence on screen. 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:12.160 Claire Spears was fourteen years old when she was murdered 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:15.839 by Kate Lawson. Sometimes you tell stories that you've never 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:18.400 told your family or people, you know, if she was 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:23.240 strangled with her own school tie. I've always had interested 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:30.240 in having strong female characters. The jury is everything, best 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:33.000 form of storytelling. You want people to go away still 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:33.919 talking about it. 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:35.760 Hi, Penny, how are you? 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:38.119 I'm very good? Thank you? Is it Ben or Benjamin? 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:39.320 It's funny. 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:41.640 I can work out how people know me based on 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:44.480 how they say my name. So Ben is pretty much 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:46.520 what most people call me. But I was on a 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:49.040 reality show years ago where they called me Benjamin. So 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:52.360 if I hear people screaming Benjamin, I think ah. 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:54.839 I always like to ask, because I'm very much part 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:57.040 of that school of realizing I've lived in. When I 0:02:57.040 --> 0:02:59.600 lived in London, I realized that what Ozzie's and keewis? 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:02.080 Do you hear them being introduced to somebody and they'd 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:05.360 go the English person go on, my name's Anthony or 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:07.480 David or whatever it is, and we'd always go Dave 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:11.320 or Tony or ant We'd immediately shorten it without even asking. 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:14.840 So, well, you can call me anything you're like, No, 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:17.960 be careful, We'll wait and see how the interview goes. 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:20.720 You know, I have to say congratulations on the twelve. 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:23.200 How long has this project been in your life for 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:24.000 it was. 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:26.880 I'd spoken to Hamish about it earlier in twenty twenty, 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:30.520 not long I think after it all started. So the 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:35.080 writer's room started in December in twenty twenty because I 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:37.240 was in quarantine in New Zealand when I came back, 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:40.520 so I remember that starting. So been it's been a while. 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:43.000 It was a good long development period but a lot 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:45.680 of writers, so a long time in development. But then 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:47.800 once it started shooting, and it was a long shoot, 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:51.120 they always go really quickly, even though it doesn't seem quickly. 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:53.520 Suddenly you think, oh, we've got plenty of time, and 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:55.880 then you get oh my god, there's like three weeks left. 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:56.640 No changing. 0:03:56.680 --> 0:03:58.840 Now you have a bit of a process though, where 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:01.080 you kind of have the team of writers together and 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:04.520 get the project basically written before it's green lighted. 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:05.080 Is that right? 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:07.920 Basically the standard in Australia. A lot of it comes 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:11.760 down to being state funded or green Australia funded, but 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:15.400 basically before you green light, what you'd like from the 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:19.080 producers is the first stage of development is a bible 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:22.320 and if you can of the first and second script, 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:24.600 so before you green light it, because I mean that's 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:26.800 where everybody, so you can see you've got faith in it, 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:29.080 you trust in the whole process, whatever else is, but 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:30.800 that's normally for you green light that you have that 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:31.520 to start with. 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:34.039 Well, I'm sure that this project has been under your 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:36.600 skin for a very long time. Is it a bit 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:39.640 bittersweet to have the series finale happening this week? 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:39.880 Oh? 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:42.880 It's always bitter sweet, it really is, but a sweet 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:45.000 when you spent so much time on any project you've 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:49.359 worked with, there are so many stages of the anticipation 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:52.040 and then oh my god, they're more anticipation. 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:55.000 It's like the writing, and then it's great, but then 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:57.880 it's pre production. Then production starts happening and you go 0:04:58.000 --> 0:04:59.960 through all that, and then that finishes and there's edit, 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:02.560 and then it goes to air and so it can 0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:04.720 keep on living for a long time, and then when 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:07.160 the final one goes, where you go, that's actually the final, 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:09.520 almost the final, full stop because in the world we 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:12.240 live in now with streaming, screaming, everything going on, but 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:14.440 you know it always is, and then you look forward 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:15.279 to the next one. 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:17.320 Do you have a person in your life that you 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:20.520 will show an episode, someone maybe not from the industry, 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:22.120 but someone you show your wall. 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:25.080 No I don't, Actually, no, I don't. Actually I've never 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:27.800 done that. I'll say this here. But some of us 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:29.760 do and some of us don't. Some of us watch 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:31.360 it when it goes to air, and some of us 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:33.720 have watched it so many times and we have our 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:35.920 own thing of whatever it is, and we don't watch 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:37.760 it go to air. And so I'm one of those 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:39.560 ones who don't watch it go to air. But I 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:41.520 will go on social media to see what people are 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:43.840 saying about it and what all the movements are. But no, 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:44.280 I don't. 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:45.400 How hard is that to read? 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:47.719 I mean, we tell the talent not to read the screen, 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:50.160 but you know, the people who are behind the scenes, 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:52.800 you know, it's just as personal, if not more personal 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:55.720 to them. So how what is that relationship like when 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:57.800 you are reading the audience reactions. 0:05:58.040 --> 0:05:59.839 I just think of it as a learning thing. It's 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:02.760 further education and the world we live in with television 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:05.880 because it and storytelling, you know, it's part of it. 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:08.560 You don't use it to change what you think, but 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:10.839 it can influence, and it's more to do with movement 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:13.880 and the zeitgeist and what's happening at the time, and 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:16.080 you need to have feedback from all sorts, and you 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:17.720 get it from industry, you get from people you know 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:21.160 who watched it, but going online and reviews and just 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:23.279 seeing how the waves and how people are responding. I 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:25.360 think it's really important you don't take it to heart. 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:27.359 You can't take it to heart, because we all know. 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.800 In terms of social media, more people are inclined to 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:34.640 if they're angry, to write on social media. And back 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:36.760 in the day when I started in television, it used 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:39.159 to be coming in and reading the overnight. It's not 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:42.880 the ratings, but what the people who complained rung up about, 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:45.839 and so you read all those and that's normally. That 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:47.800 hasn't changed. It's just more people read it. 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:49.880 Is there anything that you've read online that stayed with 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:52.159 you that's maybe worked for the better, like you've read 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:53.200 something gone off? 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:56.240 There have been times, particularly say on Wentworth there I 0:06:56.320 --> 0:07:00.320 would read because it was sometimes characters and because it 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:03.200 played the characters. But sometimes characters hit differently than you, 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:06.480 and then you think they resonate much larger, whether it's 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:08.760 because they hate the character or they really like it. 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:11.880 If you're working like ongoing series or you're still writing 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:14.600 as it's going to air or shooting whatever it is 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:17.160 that can that does. I'm not to say it can 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:20.040 it does. You go, okay, okay, you don't change it 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:22.840 for what they say, which are very aware of the 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:26.240 impact it's having, and that can influence sometimes, you know, 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:30.400 because you know, socially things change. Finding out some things 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:33.560 that have impact with people, whether it's gender I don't 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:35.320 want to say gender politics, but things like that, and 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:37.400 you go, okay, we've gotta be careful with this for 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:41.120 things like I've always been very strong about portraying female 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:44.679 violence on screen is the reason for a show to exist, 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:47.800 So paying attention to those those will also you go, look, 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:50.200 we're not doing that. Let's move away and find another 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:51.400 way to tell that story. 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:52.080 That's sure. 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:54.720 Went Worth was really quite interesting, though. I mean, you guys, 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:58.120 really you stitched us up, like sometimes you'd make us 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:00.080 love a character only for you to make us haay. 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:01.880 Them, you know, I think. 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:04.480 I mean, we gave the clue in the very first 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:07.840 episode of the very first series. That was the clue 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:10.119 that this Wentworth wasn't going to be what you thought 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:12.960 when we killed off Governor Jackson Catherin McClements, who was 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:15.440 great and wonderful and she was the only one you 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:17.480 who knew going in, and she did it. And we've 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:19.680 had her on all the marketing and in the end 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:21.800 the shop. I remember being a lot of previews where 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:23.840 people were really shocked, and so that's what I said, Well, 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:25.600 if we can do then that ball is going to 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:28.160 keep rolling. Just you know, don't get attached to anybody. 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:30.200 There were a couple of characters I knew that I 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:32.040 was never we were never going to kill off, but 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:34.200 they shall remain nameless but pretty obvious. 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:37.560 Well, I absolutely love that Alfred Hitchcock quote, which I 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:40.880 know that you've shared often, which is what is drama 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:43.400 but life with the dull bits cut out. 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:44.600 I love that quote. 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:47.000 Yeah, funny. I was thinking about that today because it's 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:49.480 pretty much true. That's exactly what it is. You know, 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:51.960 in the world that we live in now with television viewing, 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:54.840 with how people dive into it and all the places 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:58.439 they can go, our audiences are smarter and smarter and smarter, 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:00.920 and the bar is raised higher and higher and higher. 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:04.080 So in any development, any story you choose to green 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:06.719 light and go ahead with, always been complicent of the 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:09.720 viewers being really smart. There's nothing wrong with tropes, but 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:12.480 it's working with them against them to them. Because our 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:14.559 viewers are really smart, you don't need to tell them 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:17.000 what's going on. They want to work it out themselves. 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:19.600 So I think that's a really big part of development 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:21.120 making great shows. 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:22.560 Well, particularly with The Twelve. 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:26.520 Like I have to admit it is the intelligent man's 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:29.120 scripted drama. I shouldn't say, man, you know that's the 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:33.760 that's the phrasing, but this show is the intelligent person's 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:38.160 scripted content. Like I was watching it and it wasn't 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:39.720 a show you could have your phone in your hand, 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:40.600 that is for sure. 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:44.560 It was definitent. I mean, as everybody knows it was 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:50.040 adapted from a Belgian series, The Twelve, and the writers 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:51.599 and the people who sat in the room and the 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:55.400 script producer and everybody talking about it was really really 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:57.679 really wanted to make sure that it was an adaptation. 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:01.000 It was an Australian adaptation. So you go for the 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:04.400 sense and the sensibility of the show and what the core, 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:06.400 heart and core of it is. But I think they've 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:09.200 done an unbelievably beautiful job of adapting it to Australian, 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:12.560 being reflective and representative of Australia, the streets that we 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:15.040 walk around as the people we see. There was nothing 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:17.920 there that was inserted or there was no techs, no 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:21.320 tech boxing, boxing ticks, oh my god, there was none 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:23.720 of that. It was all organic and true. But it 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:26.520 was wherever you go, that's the world that you see, 0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:28.520 the people that are on the screen so and the 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:31.280 stories that resonate with Australian So they didn't. They thought 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:32.760 they did a really, really beautiful job. 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:34.880 It's such an honor to chat with you. I mean, 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:37.120 I've been in your audience for so long, watching so 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:40.920 many shows. I've always wanted to ask you, particularly, what 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:43.760 is it that you love about scripture drama. 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:47.400 It's storytelling, isn't it. It's just storytelling from the moment 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:50.360 we're born all the way through our lives, you know, 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:53.920 whether it's nursery tales or sitting in kindy or for me, 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:56.200 it was like going to the library and reading every 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:58.400 book in the library. It takes you to a place 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:01.400 that you couldn't be yourself. You can go away from 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:03.400 the world you live in if it's bad or it's good. 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:05.400 You can walk a mile, well not a real but 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:07.600 you know, you can walk a mile in the shoes 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:09.800 of somebody else that you may never see. You may 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:12.960 never know, you can experience other like other cultures, you 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:17.439 can understand and see and people can see themselves on screen. 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:20.040 It's a way of telling the story of the world 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:23.160 in a way that we can access. There's a passion 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:25.720 that goes behind storytelling and what you see on screen, 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:27.520 the amount of people. I just think it can be 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:30.840 an escape you can Entertainment can also provide a way 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:32.360 for you to learn things that you didn't know, that 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:34.280 you didn't know or you want to know more of, 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:37.360 and it's still entertaining. I just love it. As you 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:39.079 can tell, I might just get really passionate about it, 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:43.800 and I get listening to recently culture and Australia and 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:46.000 the importance of storytelling, the importance I grew up at 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:48.760 a time as many Australians of a certain age did 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:51.280 and New Zealanders where we didn't see our own stories 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:54.280 on screen where and the music that we heard was 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:58.560 England or America, and we had people doing cover versions 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:00.800 of it, and all our shows were from England and 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:03.920 the UK, and all the bands and the music and 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:05.720 the TV and the movies that came up and we 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:08.040 saw ourselves on screen. They were huge because we were 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:10.640 seeing ourselves on screen. And so right now, I just 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:13.280 think it is really important for Australian storytelling because a 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:15.200 lot of people don't remember when we didn't see it, 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:18.240 and how important it is for a culture, for people, 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:21.920 for communication, for storytelling, to see ourselves on screen, and 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:26.240 particularly now when we've all changed, because we're not we 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:30.800 are truly multicultural. There are so many stories and people 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:33.600 to be represented. It's even more important now because that's 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:36.160 our world that we live in now and scripted drama 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:39.439 under entertainment can invite us into those worlds. 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:41.560 Oh. Absolutely, it was a bit of a rave. 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:42.240 I'm sorry, but. 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:44.560 I would expect nothing less and if you didn't do that, 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:47.600 I'd be disappointed. So I mean, for me, I remember 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:50.319 being a child and hearing stories read to me by 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:52.800 my mum, like The Far Away Tree, and I always 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:55.760 loved that feeling when you just connect into a different 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:58.840 world and then connecting to what you're talking about. I 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:01.280 have seen that evolution for us here in Australia to 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:03.440 be able to see ourselves more on screen, and that's 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:07.240 the currency, that's the currency between us and the content 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:08.559 is to be able to see ourselves. 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:09.480 I think when that. 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:12.720 It's super really important and we because we see it, 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:16.600 just understanding that if it goes away, we won't see it, 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:19.280 and what the impact that we'll have on how we 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:22.640 perceive our own country and how others perceive us. We 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:24.760 are different and if we want to each of our 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:27.400 countries are different. If we want to perpetuate that, we 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:29.200 have to. We have to see it on screen. 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:31.880 I keep saying it's about our mental health, like we 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:34.800 need to be reflected as a society on screen. The 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:38.840 government needs to reinvest more money into our homegrown content 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:42.040 because it's vital, you know. I feel passionate about it, 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:45.760 and I think that there is some responsibility, some accolade 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:48.560 in some of the brilliant scriptwriting that has happened that 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:50.679 has allowed us to feel normalized. 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:54.200 Yeah. No, I consult to both Boxtel and SBS and 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:57.760 both of those roles. You know, there amazing talent out 0:13:57.760 --> 0:13:59.880 there that you want to move from there to their 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:02.640 to there and you can and the stories and the 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:04.360 writers and the creators that are coming out of so 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:08.120 many communities with amazing stories to see for themselves, but 0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:11.000 for us to hear and see it's pretty vibrant. It's 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:12.960 just as you say, getting the support behind it to 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:15.880 lift everyone. I mean, there's that old cliche, the rioting 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:18.640 tide lifts all boats, but it's actually kind of true. 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:21.520 It's true, it's true, it's true, And if we could, 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:24.360 can we talk about these sort of interwoven themes when 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:27.000 it comes to your back catalog of work, is there 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:31.120 a signature, Penny when look and feel that audiences have 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:32.360 come to expect with you. 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:36.960 When we first started commissioning, the last way with Fox 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:41.120 Tell was lifting up production values, the look, the quality 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:44.840 of the writing. So because the shows that we were 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:48.240 showing were HBO and Showtime and BBC, and we knew 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:50.640 that Australia could do it, so that was the first part. 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:53.520 And then it's the writing. So it's always We've always 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:55.560 been a lot on development and writing, and I think 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:58.800 the writing is the first start in the writer's room 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:02.480 and the authentic of the voices, and that's increasing as 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:05.960 time goes on. As well. I've always had interested in 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:08.880 having strong female characters, and that's not at the disservice 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:12.560 of male characters. But there's no point having strong female 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:15.880 characters and leads if the men aren't strong as well, 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:18.600 so that's always been a big one. And location, the 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:22.160 locations being a character in the show. And yeah, just 0:15:22.240 --> 0:15:25.280 like that, the quality of it all, particularly in the writing. 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:27.720 I think, you know, writers they're not valued as highly 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:31.320 as they could be, particularly monetarily so, but yeah, strong 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:35.200 characters and the intelligence of the viewers has always been big. 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:38.600 Whoever the viewers are, they're intelligent when they're watching. That's 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:41.840 why I always impress upon writers and productions, always think 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:43.520 of them as intelligent and smart. 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:45.760 It's so good these days when you can see our 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:49.360 shows up against the international shows we now are on 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:52.160 the streaming platform where we get these little boxes right 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:55.000 and the little trailer starts to play, and if you 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:57.080 look at the content that we're making at the moment 0:15:57.240 --> 0:15:59.440 up against what is happening around the world, you know 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:02.560 where at the same level, which is crazy to me. 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:05.840 Before we did have some good scripts that just didn't 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:08.280 look the same. But these days you get in content 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:09.360 that's just as good as anything. 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:12.280 Petition competition does that, as we know, with anything, whether 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:17.080 it's closed shoes, food, restaurants, bars, competition, it's really good. 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:19.400 And so as we've increased, you know, we went from 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:24.680 freedomware networks only to pay cable satellite, then the streamers 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:27.840 coming in and so it just lifts the game. It 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:30.680 just as constantly the bar is constantly rising in our 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:32.360 world and knowing we have to sit on the same 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:36.400 platforms as the best in the world. That's also and 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:39.880 you know, and internationally in both Australia and New Zealand, 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:42.400 they there's such a huge respect for the crews and 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:44.840 the writers and the people who were work here. I 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:47.080 think it's also cheaper to be honest, but I think 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:50.080 you know, value and the level of professionalism and quality 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:53.760 and creativity and Australia is huge, So that's yeah, the 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:56.640 competition has helped and it's also made the people that 0:16:56.720 --> 0:16:59.760 write the checks and Australia go okay, we know it's 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:02.080 go And as that lifts up, there's a lot more 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:05.119 confidence and less risk averse decisions. 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:07.640 Well, I think that there's something also very moody about 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:11.200 the content that you make. Immediately you are transported into 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:13.879 these characters' worlds, and I feel like with the stories 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:16.640 that you've been telling that the characters are in it 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:19.480 are as real to me as people in my own life. 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:22.520 That's been hugely important, I know in many a writer's room, 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:25.880 and with particularly with ongoing series. I mean, if you've 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:28.000 been in a writer's room where anybody out there has 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:30.719 the one thing is that the rules are what happens 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:33.320 in the room stays in the room, and so people 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:36.480 are really honest about things. Sometimes you tell stories that 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:38.800 you've never told your family or people you know. And 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:41.680 so whenever you watch a great drama on tally wherever 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:44.320 it's from, if it's really great and the dialogue is 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:47.480 great and the characters are fully evolved and they're talking 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:49.960 and you believe the dialogue, that's because in the writer's 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:52.520 room there's been an authenticity and the truth and the 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:54.600 stories and the things that are being told, and you 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:56.520 can smell it, you can taste it, you can see it, 0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:58.280 you know, and that's really important. 0:17:58.320 --> 0:17:59.960 Absolutely. I mean I can watch just to see. 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:02.199 I watched a scene from one of your shows today 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:03.480 and off the top of my head, I can't remember 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:05.320 which one it was. It's the latest one that's on 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:07.159 SBS that you've just done. Why can't I think of that? 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:08.560 True Colors? 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:12.040 True Colors. There's a little clip on YouTube and it's 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:15.640 so weird because you just watch a moment that's happening. 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:18.440 You know, you're watching, you've seen that's happening, but immediately 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:20.800 you feel like you are a fly on the wall. 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:24.920