1
00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:05,080
Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

2
00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:10,080
Speaker 1: Bungelung Cargoton woman from Gadighl country. The Daily oz acknowledges

3
00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:12,360
Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

4
00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,920
Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

5
00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,840
Speaker 1: Strait Island and Nations. We pay our respects to the

6
00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,640
Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

7
00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,480
Speaker 2: Good morning, and welcome to the Daily os It's Friday,

8
00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:33,080
Speaker 2: the twenty third of September.

9
00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:35,040
Speaker 3: I'm Zara and I'm Tom.

10
00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:39,200
Speaker 2: Now. Earlier this week a series of really disturbing allegations

11
00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,600
Speaker 2: surfaced about the treatment of First Nations players at the

12
00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,920
Speaker 2: Hawthorne Football Club. An investigation will follow and the senior

13
00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,960
Speaker 2: figures at the center of the allegations have denied them.

14
00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,600
Speaker 2: But it's prompted a wider discussion about racism in sport

15
00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:57,600
Speaker 2: and beyond. We'll unpack that in just a moment, but first, Tom,

16
00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,240
Speaker 2: what's making headlines this morning.

17
00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,319
Speaker 3: Well, Optus was hit by a cyber attack yesterday. In

18
00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,959
Speaker 3: a statement, the telecommunications company said that they're investigating the

19
00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:12,679
Speaker 3: possible unauthorized access of current and former customers information. It's

20
00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:16,520
Speaker 3: understood customers' names, dates of birth, phone numbers, and email

21
00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:18,080
Speaker 3: addresses may have been compromised.

22
00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,280
Speaker 2: New York States Attorney General Letitia James has filed a

23
00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,880
Speaker 2: civil suit against former US President Donald Trump and three

24
00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:31,200
Speaker 2: of his children for alleged business fraud. At a press conference,

25
00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,920
Speaker 2: the attorney general said Donald Trump falsely inflated his net

26
00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,640
Speaker 2: worth by billions of dollars to unjustly enrich himself and

27
00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,039
Speaker 2: to cheat the system, thereby cheating all of us. Trump

28
00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:44,840
Speaker 2: has labeled the lawsuit another witch hunt by a racist

29
00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:45,720
Speaker 2: attorney general.

30
00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:51,880
Speaker 3: In a speech to the UN, Ukrainian President Voladimir Zelensky

31
00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:56,280
Speaker 3: warned Russia must face just punishment over its invasion of Ukraine.

32
00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:59,840
Speaker 3: This came after Russian President Vladimir Putin announced a partial

33
00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,800
Speaker 3: military mobilization for Ukraine.

34
00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,480
Speaker 2: And today's good news. Cancer death rates in the US

35
00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,880
Speaker 2: have fallen steadily, with more people surviving cancer than ever before.

36
00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,760
Speaker 2: That's according to a new report from the American Association

37
00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:21,360
Speaker 2: for Cancer Research, which found for all cancers combined, the

38
00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,000
Speaker 2: five year overall survival rate has increased from forty nine

39
00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,680
Speaker 2: percent in the mid seventies to nearly seventy percent from

40
00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,000
Speaker 2: twenty eleven to twenty seventeen, which is the most recent

41
00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:39,280
Speaker 2: data available. Just a quick heads up before we jump

42
00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:41,760
Speaker 2: into this deep dive that we will be talking about

43
00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,280
Speaker 2: stuff that is quite distressing. So if you're not in

44
00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,679
Speaker 2: the headspace to be listening to this today, you can

45
00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,040
Speaker 2: tune in again on Monday morning. So Tom. Earlier in

46
00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,960
Speaker 2: the week there was a huge story that broke concerning

47
00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,840
Speaker 2: the AFL and specifically the Hawks. Can you take us

48
00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,720
Speaker 2: back to the beginning of where this all started.

49
00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,200
Speaker 3: I can. So it began I suppose earlier in the

50
00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:07,720
Speaker 3: year when Hawthorne players Sill really came forward in an

51
00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:11,000
Speaker 3: article published in the ABC with a series of allegations

52
00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:15,160
Speaker 3: of racism in his time at Hawthorne. That prompted an

53
00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:19,440
Speaker 3: external investigation, which Hawthorne commissioned. So they contracted some First

54
00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:23,280
Speaker 3: Nations consultants to run this process. That concluded a week

55
00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,880
Speaker 3: or two ago, and the findings were presented to the AFL.

56
00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:28,880
Speaker 3: At that point in time, it wasn't published, but the

57
00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:33,280
Speaker 3: AFL was aware of it, and some very serious allegations

58
00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:35,800
Speaker 3: about kind of the similar period of time to when

59
00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,400
Speaker 3: Rioli was at the club had surfaced, and it came

60
00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:40,560
Speaker 3: to light earlier this week when a few of the

61
00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:44,320
Speaker 3: players who made those allegations again First Nations players spoke

62
00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,800
Speaker 3: again to the ABC and in a significant article there

63
00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:49,120
Speaker 3: were a series of as you said at the beginning,

64
00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:53,200
Speaker 3: there's are really very distressing allegations about treatment that a

65
00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,720
Speaker 3: number of First Nations players experienced in their time at

66
00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:57,520
Speaker 3: the club under coach Alister Clarkson.

67
00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,800
Speaker 2: And you've pointed out there that the allegations were about

68
00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,640
Speaker 2: to discuss were first reported by the ABC and specifically

69
00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:08,200
Speaker 2: by journalist Russell Jackson. So what are the actual allegations.

70
00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,480
Speaker 3: So there are three players who spoke to Russell Jackson

71
00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,600
Speaker 3: for this story, and the common theme among the players'

72
00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,719
Speaker 3: stories about the club pressuring them to leave relationships and

73
00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,360
Speaker 3: in one case also to terminate a pregnancy. There are

74
00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,480
Speaker 3: three club figures who were mentioned in the article. Clarkson

75
00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,760
Speaker 3: himself the coach. He was coach from two thousand and

76
00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,560
Speaker 3: five to twenty twenty one and he's recently been appointed

77
00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:32,640
Speaker 3: the coach of another club, the North Melbourne Football Club.

78
00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:34,760
Speaker 3: And then there was also Chris Fagan, an assistant coach

79
00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,680
Speaker 3: who's now the coach of the Brisbane Lions, and player

80
00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,280
Speaker 3: development manager Jason Burt, so I'll sort of take maybe

81
00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:43,960
Speaker 3: the three players one at a time. All of these

82
00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,360
Speaker 3: players sort of spoke to the ABC on the condition

83
00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:48,919
Speaker 3: of anonymity and so their names aren't known. So. The

84
00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,560
Speaker 3: first player alleged that when he came to the club

85
00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,000
Speaker 3: to tell them about his partner's pregnancy, that he was

86
00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,480
Speaker 3: pulled into a meeting with Clarkson and Fagan and encouraged

87
00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:03,040
Speaker 3: to leave the relationship and have his partner's pregnancy terminated.

88
00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:07,160
Speaker 3: He then alleges that the couple were essentially sort of separated,

89
00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,839
Speaker 3: and that the club encouraged him to change his number

90
00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,840
Speaker 3: and several all contacts with his partner. Subsequently, when the

91
00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,839
Speaker 3: couple were reunited again, they say that they terminated another

92
00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,320
Speaker 3: pregnancy because they were afraid of Hawthorne's response, and the

93
00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:22,440
Speaker 3: player and his partner said that the player has since

94
00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:26,280
Speaker 3: attempted suicide on multiple occasions and had very serious mental

95
00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,560
Speaker 3: health ramifications for the whole family as a result of this.

96
00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:34,080
Speaker 3: A second player alleged that Clarkson, Fagan, and Bert had

97
00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,440
Speaker 3: intervened and told him that he needed to leave his

98
00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:38,880
Speaker 3: relationship with a pregnant partner, and that the three of

99
00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,599
Speaker 3: them went with him to the house of the partner

100
00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:43,960
Speaker 3: entered the house. I think there was a quote from

101
00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,240
Speaker 3: Clarkson who'd said to the partner, this is not going

102
00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:48,720
Speaker 3: to be a pleasant conversation and told her the relationship

103
00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,560
Speaker 3: was over. That they'd taken the player there to collect

104
00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:53,400
Speaker 3: his things, but then in the end the player hadn't

105
00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,039
Speaker 3: been able to collect his things, and again after that

106
00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,000
Speaker 3: point that contact was severed. A phone number was changed.

107
00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,360
Speaker 3: In this story, the partner got in touch multiple times

108
00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,760
Speaker 3: with the club trying to find players whereabouts, was unable

109
00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,320
Speaker 3: to do that, and the woman eventually miscarried the pregnancy,

110
00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:13,200
Speaker 3: again not knowing anything about her partner's welfare. Whether the

111
00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,080
Speaker 3: partner knew about this, and the player alleges that he

112
00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,320
Speaker 3: was told about his partner's miscarriage by Bert at a

113
00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,240
Speaker 3: club training session and again wasn't able to be there

114
00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,400
Speaker 3: through that period. A third player, who moved from into

115
00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,279
Speaker 3: State to join Hawthorne, alleged that the club stood in

116
00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,680
Speaker 3: the way of his partner and child relocating to Melbourne

117
00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:35,920
Speaker 3: to be with him shortly after the birth of his child. Instead,

118
00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,080
Speaker 3: the club had suggested a ten day visitation period, and

119
00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,200
Speaker 3: at the end of the visitation period, when the family

120
00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:45,240
Speaker 3: hadn't wanted to separate. The club had told the player

121
00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,000
Speaker 3: that he'd failed to test and should have put his

122
00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,880
Speaker 3: career over his family, and again his partner said there

123
00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,480
Speaker 3: that that triggered a severe mental health crisis and several

124
00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:57,360
Speaker 3: suicide attempts. So it's a really really serious and detailed

125
00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,640
Speaker 3: set of allegations that we're at here.

126
00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,240
Speaker 2: No matter how many times you hear those allegations, they

127
00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:07,720
Speaker 2: don't get easier to comprehend or to understand. How has

128
00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,000
Speaker 2: the AFL and how has the club responded to these

129
00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,160
Speaker 2: incredibly severe allegations.

130
00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, So Hawthorne, when it became aware of the allegations,

131
00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:23,080
Speaker 3: passed things on to the AFL's Integrity Unit AFLC Ogila

132
00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,920
Speaker 3: McLaughlin spoke earlier in the week and he said that

133
00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,360
Speaker 3: rather than the AFL's Integrity Unit, that given the serious

134
00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,840
Speaker 3: nature of these allegations, he described them as challenging, harrowing

135
00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,280
Speaker 3: and disturbing, that it would been independent investigation instead, that

136
00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:37,560
Speaker 3: we get to the bottom of this. It would be

137
00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,480
Speaker 3: chaired by an eminent lawyer, and that that process, again

138
00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,760
Speaker 3: would be independently run and the club has of course

139
00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,760
Speaker 3: agreed to participate in that. Then there's the matter of

140
00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,840
Speaker 3: Clarkson and Fagan, who are still senior coaches at different

141
00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,880
Speaker 3: AFL clubs. So the Brisbane Lions have announced that Fagan

142
00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,560
Speaker 3: has agreed to stand down while the investigation is going on.

143
00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,880
Speaker 3: Says he wasn't contacted as part of Hawthorne's initial review

144
00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,240
Speaker 3: process through which these allegations were surfaced, and that he

145
00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:12,560
Speaker 3: is willing and eager to participate in the investigation. Clarkson's

146
00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,160
Speaker 3: case is slightly more complicated. Clarkson had just recently been

147
00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,760
Speaker 3: appointed coach of North Melbourne. He's actually still being paid

148
00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,679
Speaker 3: by the Hawthorne Football Club because he was the coach

149
00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:27,200
Speaker 3: until last year and he was prematurely terminated for performance

150
00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,000
Speaker 3: related reasons, and so he's not due to officially start

151
00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,480
Speaker 3: his role at North Melbourne until his period at Hawthorne

152
00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,040
Speaker 3: officially ends in November, so there is some complication there,

153
00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,679
Speaker 3: But again we're sort of pending the results of this

154
00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,079
Speaker 3: investigation before we know more about whether those two will

155
00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:44,679
Speaker 3: continue to hold their positions as senior coaches.

156
00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,640
Speaker 2: Tom I'm by no means an avid follower of the AFL,

157
00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,960
Speaker 2: nor am I an avid follower of any sport in particular,

158
00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,880
Speaker 2: but seems from my perspective that we're just hearing more

159
00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,920
Speaker 2: and more of these stories about ill treatment or alleged

160
00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,960
Speaker 2: ill treatment of First Nations players. I guess my question

161
00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:04,800
Speaker 2: to you is where do we go from here if

162
00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,280
Speaker 2: the frequency of these incidents don't seem to be diminishing.

163
00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a really difficult question to answer that one. Zara, So,

164
00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:16,080
Speaker 3: I am quite an avid follower of the AFL and

165
00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,839
Speaker 3: a number of other sports, and have paid very close

166
00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,680
Speaker 3: attention to those sorts of allegations and to incidents over

167
00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,040
Speaker 3: a long period. I think that there is something in

168
00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:30,160
Speaker 3: the AFL and the NRL to an extent where First

169
00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:34,840
Speaker 3: Nations players are overrepresented in the professional ranks of these

170
00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:37,880
Speaker 3: sports relative to the populations. So for a lot of

171
00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,200
Speaker 3: non First Nations Australians this is their main point of

172
00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:46,160
Speaker 3: contact with First Nations people in First Nations communities, and

173
00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,640
Speaker 3: I think as a result, it's not surprising that it

174
00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:50,520
Speaker 3: ends up being a bit of a lightning rod, and

175
00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:54,600
Speaker 3: I guess attention point for so much of the racism

176
00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,400
Speaker 3: that does exist more broadly in Australian society. I think

177
00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,320
Speaker 3: it's not a surprise that it comes up here same

178
00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:02,440
Speaker 3: time as First Nations players are some of the most

179
00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,520
Speaker 3: celebrated and beloved players in the game. They're routinely subjected

180
00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,600
Speaker 3: to racism from fans, and increasingly we're learning, you know,

181
00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:13,200
Speaker 3: allegations of racism from their own teammates and people who

182
00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,240
Speaker 3: work at their own clubs. I think back to Adam Goods,

183
00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,120
Speaker 3: the famous story of a few years ago, you know,

184
00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,120
Speaker 3: one of the most celebrated players in the game, who

185
00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,120
Speaker 3: in the end was hounded out of it because he

186
00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,320
Speaker 3: was sort of relentlessly booed by it by crowds. Eddie

187
00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:30,240
Speaker 3: Betts another prominent Indigenous player who retired recently. Again probably

188
00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,480
Speaker 3: one of the best loved, most people would say, players

189
00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:34,880
Speaker 3: in the game, but he was so worn down by

190
00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:37,400
Speaker 3: the end of his career with a constant tirade of

191
00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:41,880
Speaker 3: racial abuse that he received. We've had allegations emerge in

192
00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:46,600
Speaker 3: his autobiography recently about some culturally insensitive practices at a

193
00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:48,800
Speaker 3: club camp. So yeah, you know that these stories are

194
00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:53,120
Speaker 3: so common and really distressing. I think, look that there's

195
00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,040
Speaker 3: something in the fact that these stories are being told

196
00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,640
Speaker 3: now and some of the stories that you hear about

197
00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:02,079
Speaker 3: the game decades back, you know, suggest that at the

198
00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,360
Speaker 3: very least you know sunlight as a disinfectant. There has

199
00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:07,240
Speaker 3: to be some good to come of that. And what

200
00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:11,439
Speaker 3: I can say is that the media reaction to these

201
00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,320
Speaker 3: allegations in the last few days, and the public reaction

202
00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,400
Speaker 3: it does feel different to when these things have been raised.

203
00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,080
Speaker 3: I think slowly that the conversation is starting to shift,

204
00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:21,760
Speaker 3: and I think it's an important one to have.

205
00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,480
Speaker 2: It definitely is, And if this episode has brought up

206
00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:29,440
Speaker 2: anything for you, Lifeline is always available on thirteen eleven fourteen.

207
00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:32,200
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, and we'll talk to you again

208
00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:38,480
Speaker 2: on Monday.