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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: once answers.

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Speaker 1: Now it's the Happy Family's summer series for our Happy

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Speaker 1: Families podcast. Tell her. This is doctor Justin Coulson. A

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Speaker 1: couple of years ago now, we did our very first

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Speaker 1: ever summit. It was really popular, made a huge difference

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Speaker 1: for any parent who's dealing with sleepless nights, teething troubles,

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Speaker 1: children with big emotions, food, fussy eating, all that sort

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Speaker 1: of stuff. It was called the Little People, Big Feelings Summit.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Kayleen Henderson, one of Australia's most appreciated and wonderful

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Speaker 1: child and adolescent psychiatrists, joined me for a fabulous conversation

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Speaker 1: as part of the Little People, Big Feelings Summit, and

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Speaker 1: I asked her, Kaylen, what do babies and young children

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Speaker 1: need from us?

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Speaker 2: I actually think we're really lucky because I think we're

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Speaker 2: actually the first generation of parents who've had access to

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Speaker 2: this information, to this research based information that's very easily

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Speaker 2: practically translated. The wonderful term I heard when I was

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Speaker 2: training years ago in a parenting program that I love

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Speaker 2: called Circle of Security, which is a relationship focused program,

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Speaker 2: is this phrase of no nonsense tenderness, where the ideal

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Speaker 2: stance for a parent is to be the no nonsense

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Speaker 2: limits setter.

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Speaker 3: They are in charge.

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Speaker 2: They are absolutely you know, the rock who can guide

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Speaker 2: the child in terms of learning what's safe and what's

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Speaker 2: dangerous in the world, and guide them in terms of

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Speaker 2: developing socially appropriate behaviors and setting limits in that context,

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Speaker 2: which is really important for our children. They need to

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Speaker 2: know that we're in charge, not them, because you know,

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Speaker 2: that's terrifying if they think they're in charge.

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Speaker 1: Because anything right, that's right, that's right.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 2: But it equally refers to the fact that children need

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Speaker 2: us to be tender, to be kind to ultimately to

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Speaker 2: be their go to person when they're having a tough time,

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Speaker 2: and getting that balance right of no nonsense tenderness is

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Speaker 2: really something that I've kept in mind with my own children,

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Speaker 2: and I think if you hold on to nothing else

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Speaker 2: that keeping that kind of balance stance in mind, if

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Speaker 2: what you're.

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Speaker 3: Doing fits with that, then you're probably on the right track.

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Speaker 2: But there are, as you say, there's lots of you know,

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Speaker 2: practical suggestions that stem from that and stem from the

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Speaker 2: research that add more detail to that in terms of

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Speaker 2: developing a secure attachment relationship. Children need to be watched

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Speaker 2: over as they challenge themselves.

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Speaker 3: Is they take risks, that's really important. They need how

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Speaker 3: to they need to.

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Speaker 2: Practice risk taking in the world. They also need to

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Speaker 2: be helped sometimes. You know, there's lots of things that

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Speaker 2: little ones will need help with, and that's sometimes one

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Speaker 2: that we can You mentioned the.

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Speaker 3: Sweet spot before.

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Speaker 2: That's often when or it's tricky to find the sweet spot.

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Speaker 2: How much help do we give our children. We can

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Speaker 2: sometimes err on the side of too little or too much,

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Speaker 2: but children actually need just enough help for them to

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Speaker 2: be able to do things by themselves. That's how they

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Speaker 2: become more independent, more capable, more get that sense of

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Speaker 2: competence that we want for them going forwards as they

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Speaker 2: get older. They also need to be able to come

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Speaker 2: to us when they're having a tough time, when they

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Speaker 2: need comfort. Because, as I'm sure our conversation will steer

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Speaker 2: towards knowing what a popular topic it is for parents,

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Speaker 2: children haven't young children haven't yet learned how to calm

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Speaker 2: themselves down from big feeling states.

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Speaker 3: So that is absolutely something that we need to be

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Speaker 3: able to.

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Speaker 2: Provide our children in order to develop a secure attachment

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Speaker 2: for them to be both their secure base from which

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Speaker 2: they go and explore and learn in the world, but

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Speaker 2: also their safe haven to whom they return when things

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Speaker 2: aren't going quite so well.

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Speaker 3: Children also need to be delighted in. Now, this is

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Speaker 3: really interesting. I love this one.

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Speaker 2: The delight is communicated Nonverbally's the way your eyes light up,

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Speaker 2: your face lights up, and your body turns towards someone

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Speaker 2: when you're with them, And it communicates undelighted that you exist.

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Speaker 3: You haven't had to do anything, say anything, You just exist.

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Speaker 3: And I'm delighted about it.

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Speaker 2: And amazingly, the research tells us that babies who've been

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Speaker 2: shown more delight, So when babies are delighted in that

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Speaker 2: zero to one age group, it actually promotes brain development,

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Speaker 2: which I think is magical that the way you hold

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Speaker 2: yourself can promote the brain of another human being. And

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Speaker 2: it also tells us that those babies who've been shown

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Speaker 2: more delight grow into more cooperative two year olds, which

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Speaker 2: is a cracking incentive in my opinion. And interestingly, no

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Speaker 2: matter what age your child is, when kids are delighted

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Speaker 2: in by you, because you, as a parent, hands down

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Speaker 2: the most important person in the universe to your little

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Speaker 2: human When you demonstrate to your child that you're delighted

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Speaker 2: that they exist, and this happens for them repeatedly, they

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Speaker 2: develop an internalized sense that they must be an inherently good, worthwhile, lovable,

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Speaker 2: valuable human being. And that's really important for our children.

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Speaker 3: And the research backs that up.

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Speaker 2: The research tells us that that's how we foster a

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Speaker 2: really healthy self esteem in our kids.

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Speaker 3: It's really simple stuff.

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Speaker 2: It's stuff that doesn't take extra time, doesn't take any

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Speaker 2: extra money. It's just ways that we can interact with

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Speaker 2: our children that really do make such a big difference

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Speaker 2: in our children's outcomes.

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Speaker 3: And you know, and ultimately at the end of the day,

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Speaker 3: we all are delighted that our kids exist.

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Speaker 2: It's just sometimes that either might not be in our

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Speaker 2: kind of experience of how your parent or you know,

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Speaker 2: it might get.

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Speaker 3: Lost in the busyness of life.

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Speaker 2: But you know, they're all simple things that we can

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Speaker 2: do to really set that wonderful, healthy foundation for our children,

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Speaker 2: which very much ties in with the research.

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Speaker 1: Okayleen, the conversation for the rest of our time together

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Speaker 1: is going to go like this. Number one, We're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about each of those needs in just a

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Speaker 1: little more detail, and get really practical about how we

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Speaker 1: get the balance of helping or not helping just right,

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Speaker 1: or how we delight more, or how we how we

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Speaker 1: get that no nonsense tenderness happening. We're going to get

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Speaker 1: really specific about that. I want to spend just a

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Speaker 1: moment with you, though, just on delight, because as soon

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Speaker 1: as you said it, my whole everything lit up. I

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Speaker 1: just thought, oh, yes, this is my favorite, and I'm

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Speaker 1: going to be a little bit on bibiographical for just

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Speaker 1: a sec purely because this was I'd been I'd written

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Speaker 1: parenting books, I'd been talking to parents for several years

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Speaker 1: before I actually came across this particular research in this

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Speaker 1: this concept. And it occurred to me that my children,

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Speaker 1: when they encountered me, even as the expert, they didn't

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Speaker 1: see a father who delighted in these six daughters. They

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Speaker 1: saw a dad who was stressed and busy and overworked

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Speaker 1: and was never home and was so busy trying to

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Speaker 1: make everyone else's family happy that he couldn't make his

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Speaker 1: own family happy. They didn't see a dad who took

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Speaker 1: delight in them. And when I came across this idea,

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Speaker 1: I just thought, I've got to make it start now.

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Speaker 1: Every time my children enter the room now and for

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Speaker 1: the last several years, four or five years now, I've

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Speaker 1: made sure that my face shows them that I'm delighted

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Speaker 1: to see them. And just the other day I had

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Speaker 1: an experience with my seventeen year old daughter. She was

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Speaker 1: telling me about a little bit of a boyfriend problem

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Speaker 1: that she's having. I know we're talking about little people

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Speaker 1: and big feelings, but this was a big person with

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Speaker 1: a big feeling. I looked at her as she had

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Speaker 1: these tears in her eyes, and I said, oh, Ella,

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Speaker 1: you are just such an incredible kid. I'm just crazy

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Speaker 1: about who you are. She looked at me and started

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Speaker 1: crying and said, Dad, I just wish that everybody could see.

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Speaker 3: Me the way that you see me absolvely.

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Speaker 1: And I thought, this is but we don't just want

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Speaker 1: it for our seventeen year olds. We want it for

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Speaker 1: our newborns. And it's kind of easier then until at

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Speaker 1: three o'clock in the morning and they still haven't slept,

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Speaker 1: or our two year olds until they decide that they

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Speaker 1: don't want the peanut butter toast chopped into triangles. They

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Speaker 1: want it in rectangles, or our four year old when

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Speaker 1: they decide that they've had enough of their little sister

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Speaker 1: who's two, and they're now going to start throwing blocks

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Speaker 1: at their head. And so I'm really curious about how

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Speaker 1: we bring these needs together, how we couple or decouple

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Speaker 1: delighting in our children while still having no nonsense tenderness. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what's the secret. Well, let's do them one at a time.

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Speaker 1: First of all, how do we delight in our children?

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Speaker 1: What are the most practical things that we can do.

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Speaker 3: I think there's a couple of things.

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Speaker 2: There's a couple of things you've brought up there which

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Speaker 2: come to mind. The first is that it's really important

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Speaker 2: not just to be seen to in enjoy your kids

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Speaker 2: when they've done the right thing, when they're behaving well,

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Speaker 2: or you know, as they get older, when they score

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Speaker 2: well on a test, or when they make the footy team,

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Speaker 2: whatever it might be. It's really important that we don't

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Speaker 2: just enjoy our children when they've accomplished something, because otherwise

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Speaker 2: our kids grow up with this externalized sense of worth

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Speaker 2: that sees them through to adulthood, that always makes them

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Speaker 2: feel like they need to have scored well on that test,

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Speaker 2: or they need to have got that job promotion, or

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Speaker 2: they need to toe the line and be obedient because

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Speaker 2: otherwise they're worth nothing. That's really important for our children

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Speaker 2: to build that internalized sense, ideally from early on. But

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Speaker 2: as your story beautifully demonstrated, from whenever you learn this

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Speaker 2: you know it truly is never too late. The other

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Speaker 2: thing your story highlighted for me is the importance for

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Speaker 2: parents to know that you don't have to get this

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Speaker 2: right all of the time. No parent in the history

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Speaker 2: of parents has ever been delighted to see their kid

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Speaker 2: by their bedside at three am.

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Speaker 3: It's not a thing. It's never happened. It's not a

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Speaker 3: delightful moment.

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Speaker 2: But thankfully those you know, it's not about getting it

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Speaker 2: right one hundred percent of the time. It's about delighting

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Speaker 2: in our kids often enough that there's a pattern and

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Speaker 2: that that pattern is felt by our children. So that's

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Speaker 2: not about you know, those moments you describe, they're not delightful,

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Speaker 2: and those in those cases, maybe the scales swing more

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Speaker 2: towards the no nonsense and less towards the tenderness. That's okay,

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Speaker 2: because we need to be both, and sometimes that's about

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Speaker 2: being firm and setting limits. We still love our kids,

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Speaker 2: but we might not have loved what they did. And

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Speaker 2: you know, and they're not moments for delight. But picking

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Speaker 2: your child up from childcare is not a moment to

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Speaker 2: be looking at your phone.

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Speaker 3: It's a time to be delighting in your child.

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Speaker 2: When your child comes running at you to tell you

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Speaker 2: a funny story or tell you about some amazing looking

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Speaker 2: bird they've just spotted, that's a moment for delight. When

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Speaker 2: you look out across the room and your child's playing independently,

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Speaker 2: but they're just looking back just to make sure you're watching,

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Speaker 2: that you're still keeping an eye out for them, keeping

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Speaker 2: them safe. That's a moment that we can just smile

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Speaker 2: at our little people and give them a little thumbs up.

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Speaker 2: Whatever it might be, it's those little moments, often enough,

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Speaker 2: that make the difference, not about being one hundred percent delightful,

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Speaker 2: because that's not practical for.

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Speaker 3: Any of us.

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Speaker 1: That was doctor Kayleen Henderson from the Little People, Big

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Speaker 1: Feelings Summit. If you'd like to know more about that summit,

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Speaker 1: you can find it in the Happy Family's shop at

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Speaker 1: Happy families dot com dot a u. Kaylen shares so

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Speaker 1: much wisdom and so to do a whole lot of

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Speaker 1: other people, including Maggie Debt, doctor Shfi, and the list

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Speaker 1: goes on and on about ten eleven experts who have

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Speaker 1: given us great ideas for how to deal with little

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Speaker 1: kids and they're really big feelings. It was a great,

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Speaker 1: great summit, so please check it out if you're dealing

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Speaker 1: with little kids and big feelings and you'd like to

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Speaker 1: know what to do. Happy fan onlies dot com dot au.

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Speaker 1: More tomorrow with Kylie and I as we continue the

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Speaker 1: Happy Families podcast summer series