1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: How do you raise a child as a single mum, 2 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: go through a divorce and still become the Vice president 3 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: of Global Marketing Operations at Google. Global Marketing Operations at 4 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: Google Vice President Sarah Armstrong is that person. Also the 5 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: author of the Art of the Juggling Act, a bite 6 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: sized guide for working parents. Today, I'm a Happy Families 7 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: podcast where we give you real parenting solutions every day. 8 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: It's Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. I talk with Sarah 9 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: Armstrong about her book and about her life experience. So, Sarah, 10 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:37,279 Speaker 1: the main reason that I wanted to talk to you, well, 11 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:39,279 Speaker 1: there were several reasons that I really wanted to talk 12 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:41,919 Speaker 1: to you. Number one, I don't know anybody who's ever 13 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: been on this podcast with a CV like yours. We 14 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: have vice president of Global Marketing Operations at Google. You're 15 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: a partner at McKinsey, worked for the Coca Cola Company 16 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: in global marketing for twenty years, a career at Leo Burnett. 17 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: Blah blah blah. I mean, I'm saying blah blah blah. 18 00:00:57,160 --> 00:00:59,959 Speaker 1: But most people can't even comprehend having a CV like this, 19 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: So that's that's huge. But secondly, Kylie and I run 20 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: this pod. We've been married for nearly thirty years, you've 21 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: been through a divorce, and you're a single mom. In fact, 22 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 1: you've raised your daughter Grace primarily as a single mum 23 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: while you were building that impressive resume. And so I thought, 24 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: we've got single mom, we've got divorce, and we've got 25 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: this incredible resume. How can I? Oh, Plus, you've got 26 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:21,119 Speaker 1: a brand new book that's just come out. It's called 27 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: the Art of the Juggling Act, Bite Sized Guide for 28 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: Working Parents by Sarah Armstrong. We will link to that 29 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: in the show notes. And I thought, let's get some 30 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: bite sized advice from somebody who clearly knows how to juggle. 31 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: I'd imagine you've been doing it for twenty plus years, 32 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: as you've done this parenting thing. 33 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, first of all, I agreeed to be with 34 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 2: you justin, and yes, I have been juggling Greece. My 35 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 2: daughter is twenty two, she's about to graduate from college. 36 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 3: But I've been juggling for quite some time. 37 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 2: And you know the reason I have decided to would 38 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 2: I can't give back on this topic because I think 39 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 2: it's such an important topic and as parents, you look 40 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 2: back on how we go through educated and the education system. 41 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 2: We learn a lot of things in school, but we 42 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 2: don't actually learn about parenting in school, you know, It's 43 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,399 Speaker 2: not a topic that gets covered. And then we also 44 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 2: don't learn about how to manage our career in school, 45 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 2: you know. And then you think, we have two of 46 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 2: the most important aspects of our life and we're trying 47 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 2: to do them at the same time. And I see 48 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 2: a lot of young parents that I work with every 49 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 2: day that are i'd say they're surviving, but they're not thriving. 50 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 2: And I look at that and think, how how can 51 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 2: we help, you know, the parents of today really figure 52 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 2: out how to manage the struggling act because it is 53 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 2: a very real thing. 54 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: Okay, so there's dozens and dozens and dozens of suggestions 55 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: in your book The Art of the Juggling Act. Something 56 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: that I've really struggled with running my own business and 57 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: with six children and having a range of responsibilities around 58 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,079 Speaker 1: the place is setting boundaries between work and family life. 59 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: I've got a home office, My hours are unusual. I 60 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: do a lot of nighttime work, running parenting seminars. I'm 61 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 1: trying to write books, which I me an inspiration just 62 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 1: strikes when it does. Many parents have similar challenges around 63 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: boundaries between work and family. I'm looking at the career 64 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: that you've had, especially with Google and Mackensey and Coca Cola. 65 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: What boundaries did you decide we're non negotiable for you? 66 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: And how did you then go to your boss or 67 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: to your colleagues or to your clients and say this 68 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,519 Speaker 1: is a red line moment here and we're not stepping 69 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: over this line. 70 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. 71 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 2: No, it's a great question, justin and I do think 72 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 2: setting and protecting boundaries is one of the most important 73 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 2: things that I think we need to do as working parents. 74 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 2: And the first thing is to figure out what you 75 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 2: want those boundaries to be, and then to actually tell 76 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 2: those people around you that those are your boundaries. Because 77 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 2: what I find is we might tell ourselves that we 78 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 2: are boundaries, but if we actually don't share them with 79 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 2: those around us, they will step right over them, literally. 80 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 3: On them, over them, and I'll be above. 81 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 2: And so it's one of the things that I did 82 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 2: very early on in my time of raising Greece. Actually 83 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 2: put in my color it said Grace time her name 84 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 2: was Grace. That made sense, but what it allowed me 85 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 2: to do it was two hours in the evening. You know, 86 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 2: it was basically dinner time, getting ready for bedtime, you know, 87 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 2: reading books, whatever the case was when she was younger. 88 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 2: But those two hours were non negotiables for me, and 89 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 2: I would tell my assistant, Look, if someone wants to 90 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 2: talk to me, they can talk to me at nine 91 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 2: pm a night. 92 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 3: They can talk to me tomorrow morning. I'm my way 93 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 3: to school after I drop off for carpool. But those 94 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 3: two hours of Grace's. 95 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 2: Time, because she had so few hours with me and 96 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 2: me having a chance to spend quality of time with her, 97 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 2: that I worked really hard to protect that time, and 98 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 2: it was really kind of fundamental to how I decided 99 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 2: to raise her and link to that. Justin is the 100 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 2: technology that comes into our lives and is so prevalent now. 101 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 2: And one of the things that I consciously did is 102 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 2: I'm different than you. 103 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 3: I wasn't working from home. 104 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 2: I was going into an office for a majority of 105 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 2: Grace's upbringing. And I had actually built a cupboard in 106 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:08,239 Speaker 2: my back hallway when I walked in, literally my laptop, case, 107 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 2: my toe, everything went in that cupboard for those two 108 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 2: hours just away. I didn't want to see it because 109 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 2: I do think when we keep our laptop, even our phones, 110 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 2: put a laptop, for sure, on the kitchen counter or 111 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 2: on the down room table. They talk, even if they're clothes, 112 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 2: they're talking to you. And I think our kids deserve 113 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 2: those couple hours of our undebated attention and being as 114 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 2: a present as possible. And so those were two things, 115 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 2: sharing and protecting my boundaries, putting grace time on my calendar, 116 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 2: and then finding that cupboard and putting the technology away 117 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 2: for the time that I was meant to be spending 118 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 2: with Grace. 119 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: Listening to the ideas that you've shared there, Sarah, it 120 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: sounds like Grace came along when you were already working 121 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: at a fairly senior level in corporate life. How do 122 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: you recommend somebody who is not senior go to their 123 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 1: boss and say, I've got to have some boundaries here, 124 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: like my work is assuming my life and my capacity 125 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: to have relationships with the people that matter most to me. 126 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. 127 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 2: I do think it's a conversation and it's one that 128 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 2: has to happen. And so I think approaching whoever you're 129 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 2: working with and saying, look, I'm going to set aside 130 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 2: this time for you know, this part of my life. 131 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 2: It doesn't mean I'm not going to get my work done. 132 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 2: I always called it transference of hours. Okay, it might 133 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 2: not be in the typical nine to five, and to 134 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 2: your point, you have evening work or you know, it's 135 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 2: like whenever you need to get it done, you'll get 136 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 2: it done. But ideally it's one not when you're hopefully 137 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 2: spending that quality time with your children and be hopefully 138 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 2: you're able to set aside, you know, for other aspects. 139 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 3: Of your life that you're wanting to nurture, whether it's 140 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 3: relationships or friendships and those things. But I do think 141 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 3: it's about having a conversation and putting it out there. 142 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: I love hearing that. I'm really interested about. I mean, 143 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 1: you've traveled a lot of the world with work. Your 144 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: career has taken you on dozens of countries. How do 145 00:06:55,600 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 1: you approach questions of travel and relocation and work when 146 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: you're trying to provide a stable and predictable environment for 147 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 1: your child. 148 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question. 149 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. I traveled literally from well actually Grace while I 150 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 2: was pregnant with Grace, she was in ten countries with 151 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 2: me in Euroes. She traveled the world with me before 152 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 2: she was even born. But no, yeah, I had the 153 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 2: fortunate situation where I was in global roles for the 154 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 2: last thirty years and so there was always global travel. 155 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 2: And what I will say is I felt really strong, 156 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 2: and I do feel strong that parents should travel both 157 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 2: personally and professionally as they need to, and that your 158 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 2: kids will be just fine as long as you have 159 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 2: good support at home, whether it's a spouse, whether it's 160 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 2: a nanny, a family member or friend who's going to 161 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 2: stay with them. But from the time Grace was very little, 162 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 2: I was on a plane going to different countries to 163 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 2: do what I need to do. And that was just 164 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 2: really both important to me, important to the role I 165 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 2: was doing, and I found it very fulfilling to do 166 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 2: that travel. But it also, I will tell you, justin 167 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 2: it made Grace really have such a global view, you know, 168 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 2: and raising her and understanding that we live in a 169 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 2: very I I always told her, we live in a 170 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 2: very small world. 171 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 3: Grace. 172 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 2: It's a very small world, and you can, you know, 173 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 2: go and see it when you know, over the course 174 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 2: of years. But I also, interestingly enough, even when I 175 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 2: wasn't traveling, I was bringing a lot of my colleagues 176 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 2: that would come into town to our house for dinner, 177 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 2: because I wanted Grace to meet people from around the 178 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 2: world and meet my colleagues in a way. That also 179 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 2: so it wasn't that mom was just going to travel 180 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 2: and didn't have any contexts. I wanted to see kind 181 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 2: of names and faces. Understand there were people behind that 182 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 2: travel that I was connecting with, and we're both colleagues 183 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 2: and friends, and so that was something I did. On 184 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 2: the verse side when I wasn't on a plane, there 185 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 2: were nights where, you know, I'd have them over for 186 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 2: dinner and we'd all sit together and have dinner, and 187 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 2: that was a fun part of it as well. 188 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,559 Speaker 1: I have a hypothesis around that particular decision to have 189 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: your daughter in the presence of a whole lot of adults, 190 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 1: high achieving, successful adults, people that you're working with. My 191 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: hypothesis follows my thesis. My idea is as follows. We 192 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: allow our children to spend too much time with their peers, 193 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: particularly in unsupervised, unmonitored ways, and their peers are not 194 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: usually going to be great role models. They're not going 195 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 1: to give them something to aspire to or look towards, 196 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: or they're not typically going to be somebody that they 197 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: can learn from. My preference, very much as much as 198 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: my children sometimes resist it, is that I want them 199 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: to be sitting at the table with the adults. I 200 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: want them to be surrounded by people who are thinking 201 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: about bigger questions, who are working towards solving bigger problems. 202 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: I want them to be around people who can be 203 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: role models and examples of what it is to live 204 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: a healthy and successful life. Do you have any pushback 205 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: to that? Do you think that kids should be allowed 206 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: to hide in the corner with their buddies or do 207 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 1: you think that bring them in is a great idea. 208 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 2: I like a big believer in bringing them in. I 209 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 2: think into the conversation, into meeting people again from different 210 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 2: parts of the world and different cultures and different backgrounds, 211 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 2: and I think, you know, Grace learns something from each 212 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 2: of those people, and to this day, you know, those 213 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:00,559 Speaker 2: are friends of ours. I say, have a family of 214 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 2: friends around the world, and you know, and they all 215 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 2: know Grace, and Grace knows them. And I think that 216 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 2: that bringing your kids into those conversations at an early 217 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 2: enough age where they feel that they can be part 218 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:12,199 Speaker 2: of the conversation. 219 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 3: I think it's one of the best one of the 220 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 3: best guests you can give them actually. 221 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 2: Because there's a confidence that children get from talking to adults, 222 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 2: and then if you're talking to adults from you know, 223 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,559 Speaker 2: various parts of the world, it's just a it's the 224 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 2: next level, I think, in terms of that kind of 225 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 2: maturity that you'll see in them over the course of time. 226 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: As we consider this out of the juggling act the 227 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 1: name as your book, you mentioned before building a support system, 228 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 1: and I really wanted to pick up on that. You're 229 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: a single parent, high pressure career. How do you build 230 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: a support system that works for both you and your daughter, 231 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: especially with all that travel, and what advice do you 232 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: have for parents? How do you do that juggle when 233 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: you're constrained from a resource perspective to give the kids 234 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 1: what they need, but still have the liberty to pursue 235 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 1: the things that are really important to you and fulfilling 236 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: to your career wise. 237 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question, and yes, I think there's 238 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 2: a lot of different ways to find support. And I 239 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 2: always say that I was fortunate we did have. First 240 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 2: of all, I had a very supportive husband and then 241 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 2: ex husband and he and I co parented Grace over 242 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 2: the years of her childhood. But I also had friends 243 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 2: and neighbors that were, you know, part of that support system. 244 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 2: My family lived out of town, so we did not 245 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 2: have the ability to lean on them as maybe some 246 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 2: would have an opportunity to. But I think it's looking 247 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 2: around within your community and figuring out what is the 248 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 2: right support network. It could be a daycare. You know, 249 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 2: there's lots of different ways to find that support, but 250 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 2: it is I think fundamental as a working parent to 251 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 2: figure out what is it you think you need and 252 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 2: be okay with the fact that you're going to need help. 253 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 3: This is not something you're expected to do by yourself. Yeah, 254 00:11:59,360 --> 00:11:59,839 Speaker 3: it really is. 255 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot to take on, and so 256 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 2: I was always very conscious of the fact that it 257 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 2: wasn't just going to be you know, me raising Grace 258 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 2: that I need I needed help, and so, you know, 259 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 2: I really leaned on a lot of different people in 260 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 2: many different ways. And I say that I had a 261 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,079 Speaker 2: wonderful group of working mom friends, but you know, quite asty, 262 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 2: they weren't doing their own juggling act. And I had 263 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 2: some really close stay at home mom friends and they 264 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 2: were the ones that you know, when Grace need to 265 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 2: be picked up at school and you know I was 266 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 2: in London or whatever the case. 267 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 3: I mean, they were the ones that said, I've got her, 268 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 3: no problem, don't worry. 269 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:36,079 Speaker 2: And so I think that's something just knowing you have 270 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 2: a group of people there for you. But it can 271 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 2: come in various shapes and forms in different relationships. It's 272 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 2: just a matter of you figuring out what you think 273 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 2: you need and then having that conversation of the expectation 274 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 2: that you're you're going to lean. 275 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: On them this career, Sarah, so much time has to 276 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,839 Speaker 1: be spent away from your daughter, so much time has 277 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: to be spent at the office. There are so many priorities. 278 00:12:58,080 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: And I know you've got your no goz ones, You've 279 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: got your bound You've got this, this is this is 280 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: not to be touched. I get to prioritize that. But 281 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: the one of the things that I hear all the time. 282 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: I see it on Instagram, I see it on Facebook, 283 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: I see it on TikTok. It's just the mum guilt, 284 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: the feeling that I'm not doing enough at home, I'm 285 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:19,559 Speaker 1: not doing enough at work, I'm letting everybody down. Did 286 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: you ever experience that do you have any sort of 287 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: imposter syndrome around being a parent? How do you manage that? 288 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:27,959 Speaker 1: What advice would you give for parents who are caught 289 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 1: up in the whole mum guilt cycle? 290 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, well it's it is. It is a very raal thing, 291 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 3: mum guilt. 292 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 2: I joked that I was raised Catholics, so it's also 293 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 2: it's like double doubly doubly prevalent prevalent. But now you know, 294 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 2: one of the things I think is important as a 295 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 2: mom or as a working parent is first and foremost 296 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 2: when you have made the decision to have children, and 297 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 2: then you also, in fairness most likely need to work, 298 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 2: and then you're trying to juggle both. 299 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 3: You have to realize that. 300 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 2: I have a saying that I used to tell myself, 301 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 2: and it was I'm doing the best thing, okay. And 302 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 2: that was my little mantra that I would tell myself, 303 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 2: because you can always feel like you could be doing 304 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 2: something better. You could be doing something better at work, 305 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 2: you could be doing something better in terms of showing 306 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 2: up for your children or whatever the case may be. 307 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 2: But I would just say, and I would even say 308 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 2: to Grace, Mom's doing the best I can. The reason 309 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 2: I said that is because that for me kind of 310 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 2: helped to not trigger any type of guilt because I knew, 311 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 2: look out the best. 312 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 3: I can't. 313 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 2: I can't make myself self feel guilty for the choices 314 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 2: I'm making because at this moment in this you know, 315 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 2: whatever I was trying to focus on, that was that 316 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 2: was what I was, that was the mindset I was 317 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 2: trying to instill in myself, and so I really did 318 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 2: kind of fight any feeling of guilt. I also justin 319 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 2: always knew I wanted to work and have a family, 320 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 2: and it was something I was very committed to. I 321 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 2: was very excited about, and so I went into it 322 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 2: knowing that it was going to be, you know, the 323 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 2: struggling act and I needed to figure it out. 324 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 3: But it wasn't something that. 325 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 2: I was going to you know, beat myself up about 326 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 2: once I got into it, because I felt like was 327 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 2: a choice. 328 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: I'd mat I'm thinking about the I'm doing the best 329 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: that I can mantra this this piece of advice, and 330 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: I look at that. Speaking quite personally here, my oldest 331 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: daughter is in a mid twenties. She and her husband 332 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: have got a baby girl. 333 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 2: And. 334 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: She's just gone back to school she's gone back to 335 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: school so that she can upskill, she can get some 336 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: more qualifications, and she's about to obviously once her education 337 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: is completed, juggle even more. As I believe they're planning 338 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: on more children. She's going to have a career. She's 339 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 1: got to juggle the like. There's so much going on there, 340 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: and I just think the grace that you give yourself, 341 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: not as a cop out or as an excuse, because 342 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: you're being productive and efficient and you are juggling like 343 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: you are keeping those balls in the air, but the 344 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: grace that you give yourself around this idea that I 345 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: am actually doing the best that I can. It's kind 346 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: of the support that we need to give ourselves when 347 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: sometimes there isn't anybody else to lean on. I just 348 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: I really appreciate that. Now you're an advocate of the 349 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: good divorce. Your parents have been married for what like 350 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: five decades or something fifty five. 351 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 2: Years actually heading in fifty seven, I think this year 352 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 2: in fifty seven amazing. 353 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: And so you look at that and obviously have a wonderful, 354 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: wonderful sense of awe for their relationships, and yet you 355 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: advocate for a good divorce. Talk a bit about that 356 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: you've written about it quite quite explicitly. In fact, you've 357 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: got a book about it. How did you how did 358 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: your perspective on healthy relationships evolve going through a divorce 359 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: or separation, obviously having a healthy marriage at least at 360 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: some point, and having your parents as that model. How 361 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: does all this fit together for you? 362 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 3: Yeah? No, well it is. It's an interesting journey. 363 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 2: I always say that, you know, you don't get married 364 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 2: with the intent of getting divorced. You know, that's not like, Okay, 365 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 2: when I get married and then when I get divorced, 366 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 2: that's not part of the plan. 367 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 3: You know. 368 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 2: And I generally say you don't get divorce for positive reasons. 369 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 2: Usually there's some type of trigger that's led you to that. 370 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 2: But for me, the most important thing to reflect on 371 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 2: is that children don't get to decide that their parents 372 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 2: are getting a divorce, and they're the most significantly impacted. 373 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 2: And to your point, justin my parents were married for 374 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 2: fifty seven years and so happened, right. But I saw 375 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 2: some very ugly divorces among their friend group growing up, 376 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 2: and I saw those and I went at the point 377 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 2: when I realized that we were going to be going 378 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 2: through a divorce I just said to myself, I don't 379 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:28,120 Speaker 2: want that for Grace. I don't want that situation and 380 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 2: the toxicity that can come with the negativity of a divorce. 381 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 2: And so I spoke to my Snabiak's husband and I said, look, 382 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 2: I want to figure out a way will we do 383 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 2: this where Grace isn't collateral damage in this divorce. And 384 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 2: so we just took some very conscious steps along the way, 385 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 2: and from the minute we decided to get a divorce 386 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 2: all the way through. She's graduating in a month and 387 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 2: we will both be at her graduation, you know, with 388 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 2: both of our families, you know, celebrating that milestone in 389 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 2: her life. But it's been a very conscious decision. We 390 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 2: got divorce and she was seven, you know, and so 391 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 2: she had eleven years of living across two homes, which 392 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 2: is a huge thing for a young child to have 393 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 2: to go through. 394 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 3: And it wasn't something I wanted for her. But we 395 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:09,120 Speaker 3: took a lot of steps over the course of time 396 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,640 Speaker 3: to make sure that. I always said I didn't want 397 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 3: the first thing to come out of Graces and how 398 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 3: yours down the road as well, my parents were divorced, 399 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 3: Like I felt like there should be much more commentary 400 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 3: in her life before we get to that fact, it 401 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 3: should be a hopefully a passing statement versus that the statement, 402 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 3: and so we took a lot of different measures to 403 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 3: make sure that we could end up with what we've 404 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 3: called a good divorce. 405 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: Sarah, let's move towards conclusion. Your book is called The 406 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 1: Art of the Juggling Act. Clearly you've done plenty of 407 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,479 Speaker 1: that bite sized guide for working parents. When you consider 408 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 1: the book they've written and the advice that you put 409 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: in there, is there any one thing that is just 410 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:49,679 Speaker 1: your favorite thing to lean on when people say, oh, 411 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 1: tell me about the book or tell me what I 412 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: need to do to get this juggling act right. What's 413 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 1: your favorite bit of advice to share with parents around this? 414 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 3: You know, I think to recognize that everyone's struggling at 415 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 3: is going to be their own unique juggling act, but 416 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 3: also that you're not alone, and to realize, going back 417 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 3: to my point about asking for help, it's also important 418 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 3: to realize that you can compare notes with people around you, 419 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 3: listen to a podcast like here is justin. There's ways 420 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 3: to get support so you don't feel like you are 421 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 3: going through this by yourself and that is something that 422 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 3: we're all trying to figure out. But it's teeking pieces 423 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 3: from various sources and ways of support to then figure 424 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 3: out how you want to manage your juggling act. I 425 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 3: think it's one of the hardest things to realize is 426 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 3: sometimes you feel like you're just in it and you 427 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 3: can't really lift your head up and look around to 428 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 3: see how you can get some help, some points of 429 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 3: inspiration and maybe change some ways that you're doing things. 430 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 3: But that's probably the thing that I'd say is kind 431 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 3: of fundamental to this whole thing. 432 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,120 Speaker 1: Sarah Armstrong, thank you so much for taking time out 433 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: of your day to spend time with us on that 434 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: Bey Family's podcast. 435 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having justin to spend time 436 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 3: with you. 437 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,159 Speaker 1: Sarah Armstrong is the author of the Art of the 438 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: Juggling Act, a bite sized guide for working parents, the 439 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,919 Speaker 1: vice president of Global Marketing Operations at Google, and the 440 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: proud mum of Grace who is, as you heard, finishing 441 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: off her university degree, finishing up at college, getting on 442 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,919 Speaker 1: with being an adult herself. Thank you so much for 443 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: listening to the Happy Families podcast. Really hope that it 444 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 1: helps you in the decisions that you're making and gives 445 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 1: you the practical, bite size advice that you need to 446 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: guide your family to flourishing. The Happy Families podcast is 447 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 1: produced by Justin Rulan from Bridge Media. If you would 448 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 1: like more information and more advice, more help to make 449 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: your family happier, visit us at happy families dot com 450 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 1: dot au