1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: I'm really trying to be better at what to do 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:08,319 Speaker 1: when someone I care about is worried about something or 3 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: stressed or anxious and not trying to solve their problem. 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: And for people who well for me anyway, my work 5 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: is like to try to solve problems for people. 6 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 7 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 2: used by the world's most successful people to get so 8 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 2: much out of their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. 9 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 2: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventiums, 10 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 2: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work. 11 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 3: Date today's chat is part two. 12 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 2: Of my interview with Jake Nap, So if you didn't 13 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 2: listen to the show last week, you can listen to 14 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 2: part one. 15 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 3: And I'm just such a huge fan of Jake. 16 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 2: If you don't know who Jake is, He's spent the 17 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 2: last ten years at Google and Google Ventures, where he 18 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:06,320 Speaker 2: created the design sprint, which is a method for building 19 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 2: and testing a prototype in five days. He then went 20 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 2: on and wrote a book about the process called Sprint, 21 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 2: which was a New York Times bestseller, and more recently 22 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 2: he wrote another book called Make Time, which I've talked 23 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 2: about in previous episodes, and I personally loved Make Time, 24 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 2: which is all about strategies to help make time for 25 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 2: doing your most important work and really getting the most 26 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 2: out of each day. So how this second part of 27 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 2: the interview came about is that after we'd done the 28 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 2: first interview, Jake sent me an email probably an hour 29 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 2: later and said, hang on, I realized I forgot to 30 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 2: cover some of the really practical strategies of what I've 31 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 2: been doing differently in terms of how he is approaching 32 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 2: work in Lockdown, and he asked if I wanted to 33 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 2: hop on and do a bit more of a chat. 34 00:01:58,800 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 3: So I did that. 35 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 2: We ended up chatting for another twenty twenty five minutes, 36 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 2: and I thought I would leave it as a different 37 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 2: episode to the first one. 38 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 3: This is really really practical. 39 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 2: We have some really awesome and novel strategies that Jake 40 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 2: has been using. So I think you'll love this chat 41 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 2: with Jake. And on that note, let's go to Jake 42 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 2: to hear about how he works. Okay, so Jake, we 43 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 2: are back talking again for part two, a very short 44 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 2: part two. I'm excited to get some practical strategies, so 45 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 2: tell me more about some of the things that you 46 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 2: that you've started doing recently to improve your day, and 47 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 2: particularly in light of COVID as well. 48 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:47,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, and clearly I'm not talking to people enough because 49 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:49,519 Speaker 1: it was so fun talking to you on the first 50 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: stopment of this that I forgot to actually deliver on 51 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:55,519 Speaker 1: the goal of your podcast, which is to give people 52 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: some tips, some ideas. And in the meantime since recording 53 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 1: chapter one, I listened to the episode you recorded with 54 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: Laura May Martin and been really astounded by her very 55 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: impressive list of tactics that she gives and I mine 56 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,359 Speaker 1: mineor you know, I would say all the all that 57 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: was good advice, good advice for for COVID times. But 58 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: but I'll just give my take on those and some 59 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 1: that maybe are a little different. One of them is 60 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: this idea of designing the day is really important, and 61 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: it's it's sort of a weird idea that you're going 62 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: to schedule and what I do. So I've I've started 63 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: scheduling with my wife, like we'll sit down and we 64 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: need to do it again. Actually now the kids are 65 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: just getting out of school and it's time we did 66 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: it again. But sitting down and saying, okay, like we 67 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: actually need to figure out what we're doing every like 68 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: you know, half hour to fifteen minutes of the day, 69 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: or we'll just you know, I'll spend the whole day 70 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: cleaning dishes or you know, like whatever, like we need 71 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: to kind of like fa, you're out realistically how long 72 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: it takes to do things. And it was really helpful 73 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: to see that, you know, the the amount of time 74 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: it takes to make breakfast for the family, and the 75 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: amount of time it takes to clean up and to 76 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: walk the dog, and you shower and then I shower, 77 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: and like it to you know, once you start mapping 78 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: that out, you realize how how small the windows of 79 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 1: time are when you have when you have your kids 80 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: at home, that you that you actually have at your 81 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 1: discretion to choose what you're going to do with and 82 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: it's it's it's sort of almost a little disheartening maybe 83 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: to do that at first, to see how, you know, 84 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: and it feels really weird to like regiment out like 85 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: here's our day all blocked out. We're doing this in 86 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: Google calendar, I should say, so you can really see 87 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: where things are blocked out. But it was really helpful 88 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: and we started to realize, oh gosh, if you know, 89 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: if we don't make a plan, like only only one 90 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: of us is going to have the time to do 91 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 1: to have their own work time during the day or 92 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: their own sort of folks time. And if we actually 93 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: maybe if we don't do it, like neither of us 94 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 1: will because we'll both be kind of trying to help 95 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 1: out the whole time and just kind of reacting. It's 96 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: the only way that I know to get out of 97 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,239 Speaker 1: reaction mode during this time. 98 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 2: It's interesting, like it reminds me of a couple of things. 99 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 2: It reminds me of. I remember when I read near 100 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 2: El's latest book, Indiestractable, and then I had him on 101 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 2: the show and we were talking about time boxing, and 102 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 2: how like in his book he talks about extreme time boxing, 103 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 2: I feel like, where you block out absolutely every activity 104 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 2: you're doing from when you wake up to when you 105 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 2: go to sleep. 106 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 3: It's kind of reminding me of that. And then I 107 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 3: remember when. 108 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:41,799 Speaker 2: I had your co author Jay Z on the show. 109 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 2: He talked about his calendar template method where he kind 110 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 2: of had this template for his ideal day and that 111 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 2: was the starting point. And I'm wondering, like, is yours 112 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 2: kind of somewhere in between those two strategies. 113 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 1: It's well, I definitely got the idea from from John 114 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: Saratski and was like reluctant to try it because it 115 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: sounds so weird. I had done it in like smaller ways, 116 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 1: you know. But yeah, you're right, it's sort of almost 117 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 1: what you're saying, like near was describing, which is like 118 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: from the moment of waking up, and actually it's the 119 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: morning time where I find this is the most important 120 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: because it sort of sets the tone for the day 121 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: and it's and I also, gosh, you know, with all 122 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: of these I do have these tips that I think 123 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: the tenor of our conversation before was very much like, 124 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, this is really hard and I keep 125 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 1: having to refigure it out. And that's really true of 126 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,720 Speaker 1: this as well, like designing it once. I don't know, 127 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 1: it sounds like the kind of thing a person would 128 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: do who was really like perfect at with their schedule, 129 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: you know, and really was like I have mastered myself 130 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 1: and now I you know, and I just want to 131 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,359 Speaker 1: underline that that is not the case for me. I 132 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: do this to just try to make it like not 133 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 1: all fall apart for a few more days, and then 134 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:06,559 Speaker 1: it's like, I know, in a week, we're probably getting 135 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: to talk about this again, and and like and then 136 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: you know, here we are, like maybe a month after 137 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: we did it for the first time, and we need 138 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: to do it again. And they're they're really like, it's 139 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: you also pay like a tax upfront if you if 140 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: you're doing this with a partner of like, this is 141 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: going to be an annoying conversation and like it takes 142 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: for and you'll hate the Google Calendar UI by the 143 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: time you're you know, like even halfway through. But you're 144 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: sort of paying this tax upfront of all these negotiations 145 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: of the trade offs of time, so that then like 146 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: later it's at least for a while, it's on automatic 147 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: pilot until things fall apart for whatever reason. 148 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 2: And that's interesting, And so like a couple of questions 149 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 2: on that, So would every morning look the same for you? 150 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 2: Like have you have you and your wife almost created 151 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 2: the ideal morning that in theories. 152 00:07:55,040 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: Need to supposedly but but not like in practice no, 153 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: but like, yeah, supposedly the morning is meant to be 154 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: pretty regimented. And the way that we've done it, and 155 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: I mean, this would be different for everybody. But the 156 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: way we've done it is like I'm I'm on as 157 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: much as possible in the morning on the on the 158 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: like the kids and the household duties and getting kids 159 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: ready for school, so which I mean, you know, in 160 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: this case, like it just means like can they get 161 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: onto video? But actually that's sometimes that's a lot. So 162 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: my wife has her like focused time in the morning. 163 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: So I'm going to try to I'm going to get 164 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: up and you know, feed the dog, make coffee, make 165 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: make breakfast one for me and my wife and and 166 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: the nine year old, and then make breakfast two for 167 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: the sixteen year old and the nine year old because 168 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: he will eat breakfast twice. Actually, and obviously it took 169 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: a lot of trial and error before we figured out 170 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: that that was kind of had to happen. You don't 171 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: just like realize first thing that like, gosh, he really 172 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 1: needs to eat breakfast twice or like probably have problems 173 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: at ten am. So so I think it's like it 174 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: does turn out that that morning schedule is like I 175 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: don't know if it's the perfect one for us, but 176 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: it's like way better than the react to what's happening, 177 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: Like every single day, over and over again, like try 178 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: to react to what's happening. 179 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 3: I love the sound of that. 180 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 2: And look, one other quick question coming from that, you 181 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 2: mentioned the Google calendar UI, which I agree is like 182 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:28,839 Speaker 2: you know less than ideal? Have you have you found 183 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 2: anything that can be a little bit nice? 184 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: No, honestly know, and I don't even know. It's it's 185 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: so easy to criticize, you know, things, and I know 186 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: how hard. I actually don't know exactly how their UI 187 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 1: should be better. I mean, if I get really like 188 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: into the nitty gritty, like I do have some suggestions, 189 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: but I but like for the most part, it's like 190 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: pretty good, Like it offers a lot of the things 191 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: you need, which is like recurrence and like you know, 192 00:09:58,120 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: I want to set these things up so they recur 193 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 1: day and we have maybe a different plan on the 194 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: weekends and stuff. But it's so taxing and exhausting though, 195 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: I just have to say it again to go through 196 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: the thinking through the whole day and abstract and trying 197 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 1: to figure out how should we do this and like 198 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: what's the trade off of this? Like you know, by 199 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 1: if I do this in the morning and then you 200 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: do your focus time and then but then you're on 201 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: from like here to here, like does that really work? 202 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,199 Speaker 1: And every step of the way it's like okay, oh 203 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: there's lunch time, like who prepares lunch? Who cleans up 204 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: for lunch? Like, it's just those are a lot of 205 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 1: those are a lot of decisions that if you have 206 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,839 Speaker 1: maybe other I don't know what that people's personal lives 207 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: are like. But that's a lot of conversation for us. 208 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: And it was good, but it's it's hard. 209 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 3: I just I love it. 210 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 2: And just like a quick comment on calendar software, the 211 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 2: best one I've found is Woven. 212 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: Actually heard that, Yeah it was I should have asked 213 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: you straight off because you're technic, but. 214 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 2: You in the tech world. No, So yeah, this was 215 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 2: recommended to me by Tim Kendall. I don't know if 216 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 2: you know Tim. He used to be the president of 217 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 2: Pinterest now he I think he's still CEO of Moment, 218 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,719 Speaker 2: you know, the app that ideally trues to get you 219 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 2: off your phone. 220 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 3: Not that you need help with. 221 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: That, but I believe that the next step is about that. 222 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:25,959 Speaker 2: Look. The thing I like about Woven, I kind of 223 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 2: oscillate between g Callen Woven is that you can create 224 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 2: templates and so for example, when I'm scheduling podcast interviews, 225 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 2: I can just click on the template in Woven and 226 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 2: it just makes scheduling a whole lot easier. But but 227 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 2: getting back to the calendar and how you're doing that 228 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 2: with your wife, what I really like about that is 229 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 2: I feel like just all these little decisions during the 230 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 2: day and the sharing of the household and the parenting 231 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 2: load is generally the cause of a lot of friction 232 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 2: I think in relationships. And I like, even though it 233 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 2: sounds like the conversations weren't like the most joyful sations, 234 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 2: I feel. 235 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 3: Like you've probably like kind of eliminated a lot of 236 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 3: friction there. 237 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 2: So I like it on that level as well. 238 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was it was good. I should also say 239 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: that it wasn't like obvious at first that we should 240 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: do it, Like I mean, John Zaraski is he's like 241 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: like one of my best friends, Like like, this is 242 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: a guy who has tremendous credibility with me. I've spent 243 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: tons of my wife over the last few years like 244 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 1: with it working with him like so, and still he 245 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: did this thing and he wrote it up and I 246 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: was like, I don't know, really, it seems kind of intense, 247 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: and then I like, then when we started, it started 248 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: getting so gnarly to deal with our days here during 249 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: the quarantine, and I like suggested the idea to my 250 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: wife and then she's like, ah, really, like we're gonna 251 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: sit down and calendar out our whole day. And then 252 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: even after a while, you're like, oh, I can't, I 253 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:54,559 Speaker 1: can't add anything to the calendar because like everything's full, 254 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 1: like there's just blocks over everything, Like I can't even 255 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: click to add a new thing. So it's not it's 256 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: definitely not like it's not obvious from the outside that 257 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: this is going to improve the quality of conversations. But 258 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: I think it can. I think it has a lot 259 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: of power. 260 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, noo, now tell me what tell me what else 261 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 2: are you doing that's with? 262 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: Yes, okay, okay. News duty is one. The news is 263 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:23,319 Speaker 1: just so so awful, you know, these days, And I mean, 264 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: and it's the things that are happening in the world 265 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: are important to know about, and they're important to it's 266 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: also kind of important to feel sometimes like the hurt 267 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: of the things that are going on and and and 268 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 1: it is also important to be able to function. And 269 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: I think that for many of us, I would put 270 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: myself in this category. It can be crippling to to 271 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: sort of spend too much time in the news like 272 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: I that can that can actually that could just emotionally 273 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 1: like suck everything out of me. And I'm not I'm 274 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: not able to do anything. I'm not able to be 275 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: president from my family, I'm not. You know, it's and 276 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: I think with this first sort of struck me with 277 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: the COVID stuff, as that news was coming out, and 278 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: like I went through what I think was like a 279 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 1: healthy level of trying to understand and feeling the pain 280 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: of it and the and then it was like that 281 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: just was just wave after wave after wave, and it 282 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: wasn't stopping. Every time I checked the news, it was 283 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: just happening again, and I couldn't get out of it. 284 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: And there was a bottomless pit of like you could 285 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 1: never make sense of everything that was going on because 286 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 1: there's just so much bad stuff going on. So anyway, 287 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: the point of this is that the technique that we've 288 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: been using in our house is news duty. And so 289 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: somebody is on news duty and their job is to 290 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: read the news so that the other person or people 291 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: don't have to read it that day. And so your 292 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: job is to like tell the people like here's what 293 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: you know I tell my wife or she'll tell me 294 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: or whatever, like here's here's what you need to know today, 295 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: and here's like and if there's something that we actually 296 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: should act on, like you know, here's the question for you, 297 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: or like here's the here's the one thing you should 298 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: read that's really about this thing. But it's helpful because 299 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: if you can, if the other person's on news duty, 300 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: you can just count on them to kind of do 301 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: that for you, and you know, you're free of it 302 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: for the day, which is nice. And if you're on 303 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: news duty, it frames it in a different way. It 304 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: makes me think, what's what's useful, what do I need 305 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: to report, what's like the need to know thing for, 306 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: you know, for for my wife or my son or 307 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: the other people in the house. And and I find 308 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: that to be helpful. Again, it's not to say that 309 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: like I don't still have those those those sort of 310 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: tunnels and those waves of anxiety or pain about what's 311 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: going on, but it it's helped me reframe it a 312 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: bit to where I think it's I'm handling it a 313 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: bit more healthily than I was in the beginning. 314 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 2: I really like that, and I'm even thinking of that 315 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 2: application even for work teams, Like I feel like I've 316 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 2: definitely felt compelled, like I generally stay away from the news. 317 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 2: I'll kind of do slow news on the weekend where 318 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 2: I get the weekend papers delivered to my house, but 319 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 2: otherwise I just wouldn't check the news during the week, 320 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 2: with the theory being if something really important is happening, 321 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 2: I'll probably hear about it from a friend or my 322 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 2: mum or dad. So but yeah, but I've definitely been 323 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 2: on news sites a lot during this period, and you know, 324 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 2: even from a work perspective, like when you know, certainly 325 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 2: like when policies were almost changing on an hourly basis 326 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 2: in the beginning, it just felt important as a leader 327 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 2: in my business to understand all that and make decisions. 328 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 2: But I kind of think that would have actually been 329 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 2: really good in my team and inventium to go maybe 330 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 2: as one person on the team can be on news 331 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 2: duty and the rest of us just don't have to 332 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 2: worry about it. 333 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 3: So yeah, I do like that strategy. 334 00:16:55,720 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: That's cool, cool, okay, cool. The next strategy like that 335 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: one was kind of heavy. This is like meant to 336 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: be much lighter, and it's dancing. I I've always thought 337 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: of people who are like, gosh, I just have to 338 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: dance as like, well, you're not like me at all, 339 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: because I never dance, and that just didn't seem like 340 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 1: a thing that I would do. But and say, my 341 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 1: wife is not like really into dance. But we we 342 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: got suggested this thing called dance Church. So we're in Seattle, 343 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: and this is something that I think started in Seattle, 344 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,919 Speaker 1: and it's it's not really like church, like there's no 345 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: religious connotation. It's just that they it's this sort of 346 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: dance class that they do on Wednesday nights and Sunday 347 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 1: mornings Pacific time, and it's it's just it's just it's 348 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,439 Speaker 1: dancing and they, you know, they kind of lead you 349 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 1: through it, and it's like it's really fun. And we 350 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 1: so we never actually went to the physical class. We 351 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: were just like, how can we keep exercising during the 352 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 1: pandemic and and they were doing their classes over video 353 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 1: and a friend had just told us about it in 354 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 1: real life, and so we're like, well, let's try it 355 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: over video. And so we've been we'd like clear out 356 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: of space in front of the computer and we watched 357 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 1: this thing and then we've taken We got so into 358 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: it that I made like a playlist of dance music 359 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: and now every day we have like our dance time 360 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:14,919 Speaker 1: and we just put on the music and dance. And 361 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 1: I'm you know, I'm forty two years old and I 362 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: never danced, like I've made a fool of myself dancing 363 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: and like maybe middle school and high school and just 364 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: got the idea that I can't dance, and I mean, 365 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: I'm sure I can't, but dance church shows you like 366 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: some kind of basic moves that made me feel a 367 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 1: little bit better about just kind of the basic stuff. 368 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,239 Speaker 1: And I'm just finding it's like the thing that like 369 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: every day is on my list of things I'm grateful for. 370 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: It was at that time to just move and like 371 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: just kind of have fun and just like like an 372 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: animal will like shake it off after they have a 373 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: you know, like something tough happened to them. It's just 374 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 1: a way you just like shake it off like it's 375 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: it's good. So I recommend that dancing awesome. 376 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:53,239 Speaker 3: I'm so going to try that out. 377 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,160 Speaker 2: I'm just thinking about the times Wednesday night Pacific time 378 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 2: I think works well. From an Australian point of view 379 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 2: for itdiest getting excited about yes. 380 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 1: And you look it up dance Church and you know, 381 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 1: I'm sure you can find the link, and it's like 382 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: it's it's pay. It's like pay what you what you want, 383 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 1: what you can so you you can just watch it 384 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:14,919 Speaker 1: and see what you think and then they ask if 385 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 1: you want to donate at the end. So check it out. 386 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 1: I highly recommend that it's fun. 387 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 3: That's awesome. That's awesome. I think there was like one 388 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 3: more strategy. I think that you were going. 389 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:27,199 Speaker 1: To, Yeah, I'll do I'm gonna do two more. One 390 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 1: of them is gonna be super fast, and it's it's 391 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 1: to try to use phone calls instead of video calls 392 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: whenever you can, because I find that the phone calls 393 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: are so much less taxing. The video just just sucks 394 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,479 Speaker 1: a lot out of me to try to And you know, 395 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: things have been written about this, A lot of people 396 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: have talked are obviously talking about how tough Zoom is, 397 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,399 Speaker 1: But just like the there's there's a lot of mental 398 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 1: tax to the video, and there's like kind of an 399 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: emotional like effort to to try to predict what's the 400 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: other person's expressions on the phone. I don't know. It's 401 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: just like it's so much easier, so I am, isn't it? 402 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 3: Oh, I can totally relate. It's funny. 403 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 2: I have a rule, well it's kind of a rule 404 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 2: that I mostly stick to, is that if I'm on 405 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 2: a phone conversation, I'm walking, so I'm possibly doing laps 406 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,680 Speaker 2: of my house just to get up my steps. But 407 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 2: also I remember, I think I heard it on Adam 408 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 2: Grant's podcast work Life, where he was talking about research 409 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 2: that suggests that we're actually better reading emotions on a 410 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 2: phone call rather than on a video call. 411 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 1: Oh, man, I could believe it. I could totally. Like, 412 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: right now, you and I are talking and we're talking 413 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 1: just over a voice, right and I'm sitting at my 414 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: computer because we're recording this. But like if you looked 415 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: at my body language and we were sitting face to face, 416 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 1: if you were sitting where my computer is, I'd be 417 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: super rude because I'm like looking out the window. I'm 418 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: like looking around, you know, but I'm totally listening to you. 419 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 1: I just don't have any social obligation to make eye 420 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 1: contact with you because you're not here. And because of that, man, 421 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 1: like I could just totally concentrate on like what you're 422 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: saying and the like the tonier voice, and like I 423 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,439 Speaker 1: can think and I don't know, I just find it 424 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: so much easier, so much easier. A lot of people 425 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,440 Speaker 1: will talk about how they have better conversations with their 426 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: kids when they're like walking or driving somewhere, when they're 427 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 1: not just face to face talking. And I think that's 428 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: like you said with the phone call, like you can 429 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 1: walk like you you can kind of just not think 430 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: about that face stuff. And it's it's nice. It's actually 431 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:28,359 Speaker 1: kind of nice. 432 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 3: It is, isn't it like that? 433 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 2: One? 434 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: Okay? Last one? Last one is because there's a lot 435 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 1: of a lot of the things that are going on 436 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: are hard, and and that's like at the at the 437 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: like you know, the news level of the national level here, like, 438 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:49,199 Speaker 1: but also things are hard inside families and for people individually, 439 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: and I have I have really I'm really trying to 440 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: be better at what to do when someone I care 441 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: about is worried about something or stressed or anxious and 442 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:06,120 Speaker 1: not trying to solve their problem. And for people who well, 443 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: for me anyway, my work is like to try to 444 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 1: solve problems for people. Like the design spread is like 445 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 1: solving problems, you know, make time. Can I help you 446 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: solve this problem and make you be able to spend 447 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: your time in the way you want. But like when 448 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 1: someone's worried and anxious, and I feel this way when 449 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: I'm down, I don't want somebody to solve it. I 450 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: want somebody to listen to me. And I can't remember 451 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 1: where I heard this advice recently, probably many places. I 452 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: think it's something people have been talking about a bit, 453 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 1: but it's something I'm trying to be better at. And 454 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: I can see that when I do it a little 455 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 1: bit better, it's much more helpful than solving. Just listening 456 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: and saying like, yeah, like I I hear you, that sucks, 457 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: like this sucks, this isn't this isn't fair, And I 458 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 1: know why you feel that way. I get I hear you, 459 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 1: and then sometimes just leaving it at that, and if 460 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 1: you are a pro solver, if you want to help 461 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:06,479 Speaker 1: and by solving it, it's hard to stop there. But 462 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: I anyway, that's something I'm working on and and I 463 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 1: think it's I think it's a good time too to 464 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: work on it. 465 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 2: I think that's fantastic And I feel like, look, I'm 466 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 2: definitely a problem solver. 467 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 3: I can relate. 468 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 2: But I feel like that's quite you know, not wanting 469 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 2: to stereotype, but it is. 470 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 3: It is quite a male. 471 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 1: Yeah kind of thing. 472 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 2: Men want to fix things because it makes them feel useful. 473 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 2: And to sit there and listen feels really strange because 474 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 2: it's like you're adding no value, but you are, You're 475 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 2: adding so much value by doing what you're doing. 476 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's yeah, it it's hard. It's hard. It 477 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: just it doesn't it doesn't seem like the yeah, but 478 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: it's yeah, it's it's a good thing to do. So 479 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: and yeah, maybe that is more directed to h to 480 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 1: the men out there, but uh, but if you, if 481 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 1: I I will say this, if whatever whatever where we 482 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: are genderwise, if you, if you're talking, if you know 483 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: how to do that, and your partner or your friend 484 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: whoever you're talking to doesn't know how to do that, 485 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:17,360 Speaker 1: it's not obvious to us, and it actually is. It 486 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: actually is for something like, really hard to do that. 487 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 1: So maybe you can gently point them in the direction 488 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: of a resource that said, you know, a link, a 489 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: link to how to be a good listener. Because I'm 490 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 1: again forty two years old, I didn't find out about 491 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: this until like a couple months ago. I didn't know 492 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: I should be doing that until just now. How did 493 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:41,159 Speaker 1: that happen? I guess, I'm yeah. Anyway, anyway, that's all 494 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 1: I got. 495 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 2: That's fantastic, Jake. I'm going to link to I think 496 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:46,919 Speaker 2: a book. I think it's called You're Not Listening, and 497 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 2: I want to say it was written by a journalist 498 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 2: and it's on my list of books to read. Someone 499 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 2: recommended it, so I might even link to that in 500 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 2: the show. Not it's all something to provide a little 501 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 2: helpful guide. But thank you so much Jake for like 502 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 2: hopping on. I'm so appreciative. And now I'm gonna like 503 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 2: release you back to your afternoon. 504 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 1: Thank you, yes, back to my schedule. Thank you about 505 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: thanks for giving me a second shot to have a 506 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: great day. 507 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 3: That is it for today's show. 508 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 2: If you're anything like me, you've checked out Dance Church 509 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 2: and now I have that scheduled in my diary for 510 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 2: when I do happen to be free. I think it 511 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 2: works out as ten am on Thursdays in terms of 512 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 2: Australian Eastern Standard time, and I haven't been free then yet, 513 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 2: but I'm so looking forward to doing my first dance class. 514 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 2: I'm very excited about that. And look, if you've got 515 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,640 Speaker 2: something out of today's show, why not share it with 516 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 2: someone else that you think could benefit. And as always, 517 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,360 Speaker 2: if you're enjoying how I work, I would love it 518 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 2: if you could just take a few seconds out of 519 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 2: your day to leave a review in Apple Podcasts or 520 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 2: wherever you listen to the show. So it's for today 521 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 2: and I'll see you next time.