WEBVTT - BONUS: Jon Ronson 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.080 Hey there, everybody, welcome to not Another crime podcast. 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:04.440 I'm Georgia Love, I'm. 0:00:04.280 --> 0:00:06.000 Sammy Peterson, I am a journalist. 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:10.119 I am not, but today we are joined by a journalist, 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:13.280 in fact, my hero today. And I've always had a 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:16.639 very parasocial relationship with this person and we tried to 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:20.599 do a few podcasts while he was finishing his book, 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:23.920 and instead of doing the interview, I got two wonderful 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:26.680 tours of his house. So I feel like I've become 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:29.440 the stalker. It is the great John Ronson. 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:34.159 Hi. Hey, hey, both of you. Yeah, I apologize this. 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:36.560 It was very like so what happened was we we 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:39.080 kind of raged to do this when I was at 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:42.600 the bit of liberty in my book, and when the 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:45.440 zoom hour approached, I came on and said to you, look, 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:49.080 I just can't do this, like I'm so down the 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:53.760 rabbit hole focusing so hard. So I apologize, and. 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:56.200 I'm you're still turned up, which is the main thing. 0:00:56.240 --> 0:00:58.920 Most people wouldn't turn up, but you still turned up 0:00:58.960 --> 0:00:59.920 to say I can't do it. 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:03.040 But that is like my wife always gets really annoyed 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:05.280 me because when I go to parties, like quite often, 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:07.040 right as I turn up at the party, I say, 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:08.800 we can't stay long. 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:12.560 Managing expectations. That's cool. 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:15.600 I think that's great, and like I'm going to a 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:18.039 tunnel or anything. 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:20.759 For me, it's just like a tell of I don't 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:24.560 want to be here at all, says it's very rude, 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:26.840 and what you should do is be incredibly friendly to 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:29.679 everybody and then leave very quickly. And you think. 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:34.199 I remember that you were there. It's the old rule 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:35.720 of if you go to a party, you just. 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:37.600 Need to be there for one moment that everyone's going 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:39.720 to be talking about, and as soon as that moment 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:41.640 has happened, you can get the hell out of there 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:43.160 because people will remember you were there for. 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:48.440 That, right, Yes, exactly. So anyway, I'm glad that we're 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:51.760 doing it now. I was so because I've written a 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:56.000 true crime book called The Castle. I've literally I've just 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:58.960 finished it a cut, but I can't talk about it tonight, 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:03.120 can talk about all because it's like you can't stay long, 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:09.600 but just that I'm very mus would I'd like to 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:11.600 come back when the book's out so we could talk 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:11.960 about it. 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:15.200 Then you haven't started, Yeah, you might hate it by 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:16.240 the time we get to the end. 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:18.560 So we've got it now on recording, you're saying you 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:18.880 want to. 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:26.680 Come back so right, Well, luckily I've got lots of 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:28.359 other true crime things to talk about. 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:31.200 So John, what is your because I mean, you know, 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:34.760 you do write nonfiction and and you've written so many 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:38.919 different books and they've all covered so many different areas. 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:43.600 So you being publicly shamed the Psychopath test. I absolutely 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:46.320 loved your podcast series that you did the Last Days 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:51.440 of August Ah When for you personally, how how interested 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:53.120 are you in true crime and is it something that 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:55.960 you're drawn towards or is it just a human interest 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:57.120 story that gets you first? 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:01.720 I guess the stories I'm interested always a mystery stories, 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:05.400 like I want to try and understand something about the 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:09.680 world that I don't understand, So I guess inevitably, you know, 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:12.880 sometimes that's about human behavior. Why are people behaving in this? 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:17.040 You know? Sometimes it's it's real mysteries, And I guess 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:21.560 that crosses over into true crimes. So I guess. And 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:23.600 I remember, like as a kid, one of my favorite 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:25.960 books was A Bit Nice in the Garden of Good 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:31.480 and Evil and in Cold Blood and the Execution of Songs. 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:33.840 So I was a huge fan of that those kind 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:39.160 of classic non narrative nonfiction true crime books. So yeah, 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:41.480 so I guess there's just that crossover in terms of 0:03:41.560 --> 0:03:42.480 mystery solving. 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:44.560 I really love that you said that. 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:47.320 I've always said my favorite book of all time is 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:49.600 In Cold Blood And I first read that as a 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:53.120 I was probably about fourteen, and people you just said, 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:55.440 as a kid, I loved In Cold Blood. And people 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:57.760 always say to me, what's wrong with your brain? Why 0:03:57.840 --> 0:03:58.960 were you reading that at that age? 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:01.480 And why was the face? But I think I found 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:03.880 a kindred spirit here totally. 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:07.400 I mean for me, I guess when I really think 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:09.640 about why I like In Cold Blood, it's more to 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:14.880 do with maybe Truman Capoti than it is yeah, because 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:17.239 he's such a great you know, he brings you into 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:20.760 that world so beautifully and he's so curious that he 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:23.880 wants to solve this mystery too. And I the same 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:25.680 with John Baird had been that in the Good Garden 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:29.520 because an evil. So these were nonfiction writers who wanted 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:32.400 to solve mysteries. I wanted to like go to dark places, 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:36.000 I guess, and understand them. And that really inspired me, 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:38.080 and I guess that is what I have done all 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:39.800 of these years myself. 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:42.839 You've always had a part where you you're kind of 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:45.200 always a part of the story, kind of like you 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:47.320 know in Cold Blood as well. Did that kind of 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:49.920 inspire you as a as a as a. 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:54.479 Way of writing, Yeah, very much so those books and 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:58.680 hunterss Thompson and P. G. O'Rourke, and and then when 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:03.200 documentary tries, let Nick Broomfield documentaries came out a similar thing, 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:06.920 but in documentary form. Yeah, I wonder why. I just 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:10.839 always thought there was something really heroic about about you know, 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:13.799 people like country stops and going into these crazy worlds 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:17.840 and I'm writing about them. And there weren't novelists. I 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:21.440 never identified to us, you know, aspad to be a novelist. 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:24.200 It was always about you know, the real world, about 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:27.960 people going into real life places and I fuck everything 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:33.600 up or solve mysteries or but just be part of it. 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:36.039 So there was that the kind of heroism of it. 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:38.680 But also I think there was the honesty of it. 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:43.760 Like I learned from D. A. Pennett, Baker and all 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:47.680 of those early documentary makers that the journalist is part 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:50.560 of the story, Like everything changes when the journalist comes 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:53.440 into the room. So so you have to admit that 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:55.120 by making yourself part of the story. 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:58.239 I love it as well because it's kind of taught. 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:01.400 So I'm a journalist by trade, but very much doing 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:05.560 general news, the daily news. So in that style of journalism, 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:07.640 it's very much that you shouldn't be part of the story. 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:10.080 You know, you've got to tell the facts from an 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:13.240 unbiased position. But I think that's kind of why I 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:16.600 love getting into those kind of like your books and 0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:20.080 In Cold Blood and those kind of John Saffran. 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:22.760 It's that desire of you. 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:25.520 I got into journalism because I'm obsessed with the stories 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:27.440 and I want to tell stories and the same kind of. 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:29.719 Thing as you learn about the human mind. 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:31.279 So to be able to kind of delve in and 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:33.760 feel like, oh, imagine being part of the story, but 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:36.320 not in a way that you've been publicly shamed, which 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:37.400 is bringing a book. 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:42.640 Yeah absolutely, And yeah what you said about you know, 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:45.640 telling the facts in an unbiased way, like I agree, 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:47.880 I think you need to do. You know, I love 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:49.919 to put myself in the middle of the story, but 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:52.720 I want to I want the story to be unbiased, 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:54.480 and I think that's sort of the reason for putting 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:57.320 yourself in a bit of the story because a journalist 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:00.640 does skew things when they enter the room, and the 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:03.400 journalist does bring along their own bias. I'd said, the 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:06.240 most honest thing to do is to make that part 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:09.240 of the story a minute. It's like showing your workings 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:09.840 in a way. 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:13.160 It is a very not true crime in a very 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:15.680 different way, but sort of related. So I'm doing I 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:19.440 do radio news at the moment. And for your information background, 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:22.400 nine years ago, I was on the Australian version of 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:28.720 The Bachelorette, and yesterday, yesterday in my radio job, I 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:32.960 was reading an entertainment story about Jessica Simpson denying rumors 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:34.920 that she was going to be the next Bachelorette because 0:07:34.960 --> 0:07:37.480 she said she doesn't need help finding a partner and 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:38.640 she's got plenty of options. 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:40.640 And as I was reading the story, I went, oh, 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:44.840 I'm good for her. That's me injecting myself into the story. 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:49.960 You were talking before about Nick Broomfield as well. He 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:56.720 went in and interviewed famously Eileen Wernos. Did that scare 0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:58.920 you are kind of a little bit in terms of 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:01.480 like going into this world world or was that more like, 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:03.480 have you been terrified of some of the people that 0:08:03.520 --> 0:08:07.160 you've interviewed or how do you kind of approach that 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:09.880 in a way of talking to people like them, like 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:11.760 you know, like, how do you do that? 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:17.640 Yeah, it's funny. It's I get like anticipatory anxiety as 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:22.000 I'm driving towards somewhere. But really I think the curiosity 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:24.920 takes over so much. In the Psychopath Test. 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:25.480 I go to. 0:08:25.720 --> 0:08:29.280 Broadmore, which used to be called the broad More Asylum 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:31.640 for the criminally insane, so you know the kind of 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:33.240 place that it is, and people are like, oh, oh God, 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:36.439 you must have been so scared, but obviously you're way 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:42.199 more curious. I'd also just so delighted to be somewhere 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:44.760 where most people don't get to go that that those 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:47.480 things overwhelmed any any fear that you have. In fact, 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:50.280 I remember I was sitting at BroadWare A one time 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:53.960 and I said the nurse, I said, God, I can't 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:59.199 pinch me. I can't believe of it, broadmare n what 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:00.760 we've got spared. I feel like. 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:05.839 He's starting to when you're all like that. 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:08.880 I'm having such a fango a moment because I listened 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:11.800 to The Psychopath Test as an audiobook and just having 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:14.720 you there in front of us saying Broadmore, and I was. 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:19.800 Like, I'm going for real, are you. I've got to say, 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:23.400 like I got to say, like when often you don't 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:25.440 know if the story is gonna hit or not, you 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:27.240 know a story is good. But I remember I was 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:29.800 sitting outside Broadwall. I didn't put this in the book. 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:33.319 I was sitting outside Broadball with Brian, the scientologist who 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:36.560 was the guy who got me into Broadmall because scientologists 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:41.040 are very good at circumventing bureaucracy, like funny that, And 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:43.680 in the curve afterwards, he said to me, like, we've 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:47.199 met Tony. And Tony was the guy who took very 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:49.960 quickly spell it out this. Tony's the guy who faked 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:53.400 madness to escape a prison sentence. But he faked madness 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:57.160 too well, and he didn't end up in some cushy hospital. 0:09:57.400 --> 0:09:59.400 He ended up in Broadmore. 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:01.160 When everyone over the Crocker's nest. 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:06.320 Yeah, totally so. And the scientologists like we're had taken 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:09.760 Tony on and told me about him. So I went 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:11.880 and then did the car after beating Tony. I always 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:13.680 remember Bride said to me, like, you know, I just 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:16.040 want to say John, like, thank you so much for 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:18.400 taking the story on and I said, like, are you 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:21.079 kidding me? Like this is up, this is going to 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:25.679 be with me for the next thirty years. I knew 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:29.360 in the moment what a big story in terms of 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:34.280 just like you know, people be curious about it. Yeah, yeah, 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:36.800 like I knew that. I knew it was going to hit. 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:39.640 Oh good, it did. Thank you. Thank you for giving 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:40.280 it to us. 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:45.480 Thank you to Tony and Brian from our parasocially thanking them. 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:47.000 For you for allowing you to do that. 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:49.600 How how often, John, do you, like when you're going 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:51.120 to start a new project like the book that we 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:53.480 can't talk about but we will at some point, But 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:55.719 when you go and start a new piece, if you're 0:10:55.760 --> 0:11:00.559 an article or whatever you're doing, do you I mean, 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:03.200 I know that we're spoken about Reddit and you and 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:05.960 I have in the past gone on very deep dives 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:11.439 into Reddit, sadly and for you personally, do you sometimes 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:13.560 I imagine this is true, but do you go down 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:16.480 a lot of different rabbit holes and get to a 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:20.120 story and then realize it's not something or is your 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:22.600 intuition over the over the last few years, I imagine would 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:25.720 get a lot better. Do you sometimes go down a 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:28.200 path and start interviewing people and then realize there's no 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:28.920 story in it. 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:34.000 Oh yeah. Often, often the times it really works, it's 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:37.240 like it's like, you know, lightning striking. It's it's just 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:41.000 so lucky. There's so many dad ads, there's so many 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:45.079 bleak days when you're looking for I met this documentary 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:49.920 study Kubrick's box as, and I said to Christian Kubrick's wife, like, 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:52.760 you know, in those ever length of gaps between movies, 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:55.680 what was he looking for? And she said, that magical 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:59.439 moment of falling in love with the story, And that's 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:01.079 what you're looking for. You just don't know what it's 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:04.199 going to be until you know, until you find it, 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:08.440 it jumps out at you. With the psychopath test, for instance, 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:13.120 I just this psychologist happened to mention to me that 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:15.400 you were much more likely to find psychopaths at the 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:18.080 top of the tree than at the bottom. And this 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:20.160 was the thought that, you know, no, that's that's kind 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:22.720 of been the consciousness now, but it really wasn't at 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:26.640 the time. And I was thinking about this and I 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:30.040 suddenly thought, Okay, I should learn how to spot psychopaths. 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:32.800 I should go on a psychopaths spotting course and then 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:37.160 journey into the corridors of power and try and spot psychopaths, 0:12:37.240 --> 0:12:39.280 and like, I have no idea what's going to happen, 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:43.200 but whatever it is, it's got to be good. And 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:45.240 so that's like one of those moments and a similar 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:47.959 thing actually with the new book The Castle. This is 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:50.760 the one thing I can say actually because it's out there. 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:55.000 So the way that crashed into my life was I 0:12:55.040 --> 0:13:00.400 was asleep and my son, while I'm asleep, is nexting 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:03.760 me the series of texts and I and I see 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:06.079 the last text first, and the last text is something 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:09.240 like it's okay. We managed to get out. It was 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:14.880 totally fucked, but we're okay now I got to Yeah. 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:17.240 So then I read all the other texts that had 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:20.280 preceded it, and he and some friends had been invited 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:23.959 to a party at a stranger's house that they'd met 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:31.480 online in the forests of New England. This is a 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:34.840 very well you'll see. So when they get there, the 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:42.559 stranger's house was a massive, newly built castle with like 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:48.000 way too many turrets, like really odd, huge castle, and 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:51.560 they went in and there was no party. Oh they've 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:55.600 been invited there for other reasons. 0:13:55.880 --> 0:13:58.440 Oh my god, I'm hooked, all right, give me the 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:01.240 book straight into my veins and imediately right. 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:04.080 And then when I found this story, when he told 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:07.160 me this story, I went to the castle, and that's 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:09.640 how the book begins. 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:12.480 Hey, John, you're pretty good at a tease. You should 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:15.040 consider doing writing or something for a living. That was 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:15.560 really good. 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.480 I've got to say, I'm pretty cliffhanger shameless. In fact, 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:23.320 I was talking to my wife about this this morning. 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:25.200 I say, oh my god, you know I really I 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:26.320 really go for the cliff. 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:30.640 I mean they go for you. 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:32.520 Can you tell us a little bit about the last 0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:34.720 days of August as well? I think it was such 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:38.440 a podcast that really got me hooked, you know, because 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:40.280 of your wonderful cliffhangers. 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:42.120 But you know you did, you did start it and. 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:46.320 Went into this world to find out about someone who 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:48.480 sadly yet took their own life. 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:51.360 Yeah, and I see this kind of this is like 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:56.640 a true crime cautionary tale. Actually, because of all the 0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:59.240 stories I've done, I'm glad I did the story, and 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:01.880 I'm too hard in myself, like the way I'm going 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:03.920 to tell this story. I think I'm too heard of 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:08.000 myself and almost everyone who listens to the last of 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:11.400 August really likes it and thinks it's responsibly done and 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:15.560 so on. But I focus a lot on the kind 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:19.440 of ethical flaws and the problems and the things that 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:24.440 I organized over. So I just made this documentary called 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:27.520 The Butterfly Effect for Audible, which is this really sweet, 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:34.080 upbeat documentary about the porn industry trying to adapt in 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:37.080 the wake of all of these tech utopians coming in 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:38.360 and taking over it. 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:41.600 I want to have, wasn't it and the people that yeah, 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:45.640 that took over and the AHS tapes weren't a thing 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:48.760 anymore and it would just completely change the industry, which 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:49.840 which happened very quickly. 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:54.440 Yeah, porn just like decimated the industry, And so I 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:57.040 went to the poor world to see like how they 0:15:57.080 --> 0:15:59.440 were coping in that. 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:03.720 Good life hack make and no, no, babe, honestly, it's 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:06.760 for a documentary. 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:17.960 Yeah. Now my wife is very like permissive. Uh yeah. 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:23.080 So ah. So that was like a really sweet, nae sured, 0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:26.160 upbeat documentary. And then about a couple of months after 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:30.239 it came out, this porn style called August Dain's Mercedes 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:35.800 Kobowski took her life and I can't remember how it happened. 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:40.840 But I ended up talking to her husband, Kevin, who 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:45.920 said that she'd been there'd been a Twitter storm that 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:51.560 day and she was being like kind of publicly shamed 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:53.960 on Twitter and that was and actually took her life. 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:57.360 So I'd written the book about public shaming, and I'd 0:16:57.400 --> 0:17:00.800 made a documentary about the porn industry, so it just 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:02.920 seemed like I should reach out to her husband. So 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:05.600 that's that's what happened. So I reached out to him, 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:11.400 and he said that he completely blamed the people who 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:14.119 were dragging her on Twitter for her death, and he 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:15.800 was going to release the statement and some of them 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:19.840 were very big names in the porn industry, and he 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:23.600 was going to release a statement naming and shaming the 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:26.520 people who were respond who he felt were responsible for 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:31.320 her death. And then shortly after that, a few people 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:36.240 in the porn industry said to me, we think mercedes 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:39.760 death is more complicated. There's more stuff going on. You 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:43.800 should investigate it, implying that maybe it wasn't even suicide. Wow, 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:47.200 So that was what set me off on the journey. 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:49.840 Yeah, I mean there's so much along the way as well, 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:52.840 a power outage, there's you know, the going to the 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:54.080 going to the hotel. 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:55.080 There's all these. 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:58.119 Little bits and pieces that you kind of look at it. 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:00.560 It's a clue after clue that may maybe there is 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:05.000 something more sinister Afford. Does that scare you though, when 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:09.439 you maybe make comments about, oh, it doesn't seem like 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:12.119 that is that is exactly what happened? 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:12.320 Does that? 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:15.200 Does that scare you in once it's out there. 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:19.920 Entering into the world of crime or potentially crime, entering 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:24.040 into that from afar, but kind of putting yourself into it. 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:28.280 Yeah, well, I guess there's there are fears. There's probably 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:32.240 well one are the fears, Okay, I'm putting myself in 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:37.920 personal danger is one. I'm putting myself in legal jeopardy 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:42.240 is another. And then the third one is is this 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:47.159 ethically the right thing to do? And those are like, 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:52.640 you know, at what point is it appropriate to prot 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:58.840 around in somebody's life, especially somebody who's you know, grieving, 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:04.200 even if their behavior was shitty. So you know, all 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:06.240 of these things were just like rustling around in my 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:08.359 head for like the two years I was making however 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:10.719 long it talk to make the show. So yeah, like 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:16.480 there was three ultimately of the three feears, the one 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:19.720 that became the biggest one was the ethical one. The 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:22.720 other two I never felt with that story. I never 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:28.040 felt in any physical danger. Actually that's not true. We 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:31.440 being leader, did feel in physical danger. But I think 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:36.320 we were both being paranoid. Leader is the producer. I 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:38.560 think we were just being paranoid. But at one point 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:42.480 we hired armed like an armed guard. 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:43.720 Wow. 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:48.160 Yeah, And but honestly, looking back on us, I think 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:54.960 we were being paranoid. God, I was gonna say that 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:58.080 I never felt there was any legal jeopardy because honestly, 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:02.560 we're really careful, really assiduous, like I don't, you know, 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:04.880 mess around with that kind of stuff. So the only 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:07.920 thing left really was was that was kind of ethical, 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:14.080 and that just haunted me. And you know, and anybody 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:18.200 who does true crime reporting, if they're not haunted by that, 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:20.320 then they shouldn't be in the job. 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:22.920 And then they're going to run into the legal part 0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:26.320 as well. I think that if you're not wanted by that, you. 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:29.880 Come from this really disarming, this disarming kind of point 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:34.400 of view where you you always and it's so genuine 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:37.359 with you, You care about the people and you want to 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:40.760 find out more. Do you feel like that that really 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:42.600 you know, that that way that you've kind of come 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:46.520 into journalism and you probably see it done incorrectly a lot, 0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:48.800 do you do you look at that and kind of go, 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:51.480 this was always you know, that's kind of your superpower 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:54.000 in a way that people kind of trust you and 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:58.440 want to want to divulge a lot of information I 0:20:58.920 --> 0:20:59.240 want to. 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:03.119 I think it's I think it's maybe more like, you know, 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:06.080 when I decide to do a story, I get so 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:08.960 obsessed with it, like I go down the rabbit hole, 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:12.040 and it just completely consumes me. By the time I'm 0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:15.679 approaching interviewees, like my passion for the story and for 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:21.919 them and their stories. I guess it becomes, you know, 0:21:22.000 --> 0:21:25.159 kind of rubs off from them, and they and they're 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:28.000 more agreeable to talk to me. And I guess there's 0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:31.840 a sort of enthusiasm that comes with the curiosity, and 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:38.159 maybe that sort of pumptiousness is attractive to them. Yeah, 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:44.639 And and I am genuinely curious, Like it's rare that 0:21:44.680 --> 0:21:49.199