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Speaker 1: For me when I've watched you know, Sky, I've been

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Speaker 1: doing this for thirty five years, and I've watched human behavior.

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Speaker 1: There's two things that are really painful emotions. One of

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Speaker 1: them is shame, right, that you did something that you're

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Speaker 1: just embarrassed or humiliated about, and it's a really hard

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Speaker 1: emotion to deal with. And the other one is surprise,

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Speaker 1: Like you know, when something happens in like every you

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Speaker 1: feel like everybody knew but you, which kind of leads

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Speaker 1: to shame, right, And so why would anybody want to

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Speaker 1: make another person feel either one of those things? And

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Speaker 1: the way to get ahead of both of those things

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Speaker 1: is just to be honest when the situation is small,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's that build up over time.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work show about the technics used

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Speaker 2: by leading innovators to get so much out of the day.

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Speaker 2: I'm your host, doctor, I'm an organizational psychologist, the CEO

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Speaker 2: of Inventium, and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize

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Speaker 2: my workday. My guest today is Patty mccawd. Patty served

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Speaker 2: as the chief Talent officer at Netflix for fourteen years

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Speaker 2: and helped create the now very famous Netflix Culture Deck,

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Speaker 2: which has been viewed on SlideShare over.

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Speaker 3: Fifteen million times.

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Speaker 2: In fact, Cheryl Sandberg referred to this deck as the

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Speaker 2: most important document ever to come out of the Valley.

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Speaker 1: And personally, I.

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Speaker 2: Came across this deck several years ago and it really

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Speaker 2: challenged and changed my views about how I think about

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Speaker 2: the world of work. It's just brilliant if you haven't

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Speaker 2: seen it, and I'll make sure I link to it

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Speaker 2: in the show notes. Patty is also the author of Powerfilm,

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Speaker 2: which is all about how she built a culture of

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Speaker 2: freedom and responsibility at Netflix and is an excellent read.

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Speaker 2: We cover a holiday ground in this interview. One of

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Speaker 2: my favorite parts of the interview, though, was when we

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Speaker 2: talk about radical honesty, which is something that Patty is

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Speaker 2: a huge champion of, and she talks about how we

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Speaker 2: can all be more radically honest at work, which I

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Speaker 2: know I personally found very very helpful.

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Speaker 3: So on that note, over.

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Speaker 2: To Patty to find out about how she works.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here, and I'm

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Speaker 1: glad to talk about sort of the evolution of my

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Speaker 1: book and my talks and all the other stuff you

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Speaker 1: want to talk about. Can't wait I know, I know.

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Speaker 2: I'm really excited to actually hear about how your life

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Speaker 2: is different now that you're not at Netflix, because you're

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Speaker 2: at Netflix for about fourteen years or a little bit over,

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Speaker 2: and you've been out for about six years and back

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Speaker 2: at Netflix, in your words, you were a real executive

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Speaker 2: in invented commers. And I'm curious, how how have your

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Speaker 2: working habits and routines changed in the last six years.

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Speaker 1: Oh, it's so unpredictable now, it's just it's just wonderful.

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Speaker 1: I you know, I don't have a big to do

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Speaker 1: list every day. I have a lot of freedom. It's

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Speaker 1: kind of packed into So for the last year since

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Speaker 1: I wrote the book, I've been mostly working on promoting

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Speaker 1: the book, so I've done lots and lots and lots

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Speaker 1: of speaking engagements. So it kind of works out that

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Speaker 1: every month I'm on the plane or on the road

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Speaker 1: for a couple of weeks. And when I'm not on

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Speaker 1: the plane or on the road meeting with people, I'm

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Speaker 1: here at my little house in Santa Cruz and I

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Speaker 1: go for a walk with my grand dog, and I

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Speaker 1: work at my garden and I'm building a new house,

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Speaker 1: and I ride my e bike all around town.

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Speaker 2: And so it sounds like you travel a lot, you

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Speaker 2: spend a lot of time on planes. I'm curious, how

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Speaker 2: do you use your time on airplanes?

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Speaker 1: Well, my number one use of time on airplanes is

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Speaker 1: to binge watch Netflix, and it's because I love like

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Speaker 1: I can do a whole series, you know, and weep

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Speaker 1: and cry and laugh all in one long plane ride.

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Speaker 1: I read a lot on planes. I read on my

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Speaker 1: kindle or on my iPad, and so that's when I

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Speaker 1: kind of catch up on other people's work or other

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Speaker 1: business stuff. But you know, I'm a big fan of

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Speaker 1: a good novel too, so that's kind of what I

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Speaker 1: do on planes. So I'm not a big sleeper on

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Speaker 1: planes unless I'm going to Europe, and then I have

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Speaker 1: to be laying down because I don't do that very well.

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Speaker 3: Mm's. That's interesting.

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Speaker 2: I find that with the people that I've spoken to

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Speaker 2: for this podcast, they're either all about kind of leisure

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Speaker 2: and relaxation on planes or they've got some really sort

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Speaker 2: of big work goals that they want to hit on

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Speaker 2: the plane.

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Speaker 3: But it sounds like.

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Speaker 2: You're sort of more towards the relaxation side, but a

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Speaker 2: little bit of catching up as well, yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's partly because once I get there,

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Speaker 1: I'm either consulting directly with a company, or a group

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Speaker 1: of engineers or a group of executives, or I'm speaking

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Speaker 1: at a large function, and I find that speaking takes

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Speaker 1: a lot of energy. I kind of have to be

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Speaker 1: up for it. So the research I'll often do on

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Speaker 1: the plane is the background of who am I going

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Speaker 1: to speak with, right, how how long has the company

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Speaker 1: been around, what are their issues? You know? Do I

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Speaker 1: do the news searches and just as much as I

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Speaker 1: can find out so that when I get there then

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Speaker 1: I'm prepared for sort of who who I'm speaking to right,

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Speaker 1: what my audience is, and what their concerns are. So

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Speaker 1: I guess that's the work part about it. But I

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Speaker 1: have to balance it because I have to be on right.

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Speaker 1: So that's the part where the binge watching helps me

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Speaker 1: sort of just chill my brain out a little so

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Speaker 1: I can talk to them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and how do you prepare for a presentation? What

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Speaker 2: does that look like from your client briefing you on

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Speaker 2: the event through to delivery.

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Speaker 3: Can you take me through what that process is like

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Speaker 3: for you?

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Speaker 1: Sure? Usually people come to my website directly and contact

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Speaker 1: me about speaking with them or working with the company.

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Speaker 1: And I look at a couple things. I mean, I'm

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Speaker 1: Sami retired now, so I look at where they are, like,

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Speaker 1: do I want to go to Australia again since I

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Speaker 1: went three times last year?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 1: And then who the entity is themselves that are asking

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Speaker 1: for me this year? Honestly, I spoke at some events

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Speaker 1: that I might not choose to do again because I

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Speaker 1: really wanted to cram my schedule full of exposure for

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Speaker 1: the book. And then there's been a really interesting evolution

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Speaker 1: over the six years I've been gone. I told my

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Speaker 1: staff when I left Netflix, if I ever become one

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Speaker 1: of those motivational speakers, just kill me now. And little

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Speaker 1: did I know that a couple of things would happen simultaneously.

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Speaker 1: One of them is speakers. Bureaus and big organizations are

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Speaker 1: really really really really really really interested in having a

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Speaker 1: woman speaker on the roster. So I know that I

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Speaker 1: get more calls because I'm a woman. Be my subject manner,

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Speaker 1: which is working, is pretty appropriate for everybody. And see,

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Speaker 1: I did not anticipate loving talking to HR people as

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Speaker 1: much as I do, because you know, when the doors

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Speaker 1: are closed, and it's just us and I have credibility,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm one of them. I'm not an academic saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, here's what I think is the future of work,

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Speaker 1: which I love hearing. You know, when I hear from

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Speaker 1: academics and professors, They're always telling me about the future

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Speaker 1: of work. I'm like, you work at a college, it's

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Speaker 1: about work or reporters, right, Sometimes when I talk to reporters,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, where did you get this notion? Like do

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Speaker 1: you even ever go to work at the Wall Street Journal?

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Speaker 1: You guys are all freelance, right, So, so I didn't

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Speaker 1: anticipate how much I would enjoy talking to the real

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Speaker 1: people who can really innovate about the future of work,

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Speaker 1: and those are executives and HR people. And the other

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Speaker 1: thing that happens serendipitously to my emergence in the world

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Speaker 1: is the Me Too movement and I have I have

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Speaker 1: a lot to say about that. And so talking to

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Speaker 1: women's organizations has been really, really satisfying.

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Speaker 2: And how do you decide what you're going to cover

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Speaker 2: in a presentation? Like I feel like in interviews I've

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Speaker 2: heard you in you're really great at telling stories, and

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Speaker 2: stories are obviously a really important part of presentations. And

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Speaker 2: I'm curious, will you always such a good storyteller or

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Speaker 2: is this a skill that you've learned to tell me

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Speaker 2: about that?

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Speaker 1: No, I always was, partly because you know, how I

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Speaker 1: view culture in a company is very very much cultural anthropology, right,

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Speaker 1: And so I'm kind of you're probably too young, but

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Speaker 1: I always tell people I'm the Margaret Mead of corporate culture,

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Speaker 1: which is culture. Culture is rituals. Culture is what you celebrate.

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Speaker 1: Culture is the stories that you tell. It's the way

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Speaker 1: you operate and how it changes from the way you

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Speaker 1: operate as a village to you know, a city, to

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Speaker 1: a country to so all of those same ways of

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Speaker 1: looking at how humans interact with each other is very

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Speaker 1: for me, very scientific, right I mean, And I tell

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Speaker 1: people you so start up to say to me, oftentimes

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Speaker 1: we have a wonderful culture. What do we do to

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Speaker 1: keep it? And I say, well, there's only three endings

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Speaker 1: to a startup, so let's be clear about them. You'll

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Speaker 1: get bigger, you'll get smaller, or you'll get eaten. Smaller's death, right,

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Speaker 1: So you can't keep your culture. You can or you'll die,

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Speaker 1: And you'll die, right because then you can't grow and

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Speaker 1: cultures about how you reform and reorganize as you grow.

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Speaker 1: So storytelling is something that I think I perfected doing

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Speaker 1: because of my role in a company, because I could

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Speaker 1: make those behaviors human, right, And I could say, too,

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Speaker 1: let's i'll give you an example. Oh, how did you

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Speaker 1: ever get no paid time off to work? Didn't people

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Speaker 1: either a never take any time off from work all

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Speaker 1: the time or be not ever show up to work

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Speaker 1: or get anything done? How did you make people behave

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Speaker 1: around time off in an adult manner? And the way

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Speaker 1: I would do it is I would say to my

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Speaker 1: executive team and leadership team, you have to be the

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Speaker 1: employee you want, right, you have to take time off.

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Speaker 1: If as a leader, you don't take time off and

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Speaker 1: come back and make everybody look at your vacation photos,

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Speaker 1: then you won't be quote saying it's healthy to take

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Speaker 1: time off. It's a good thing to get out away

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Speaker 1: from here and relax, right. And so, then I could

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Speaker 1: turn in the tales about so and So's vacation where

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Speaker 1: he built an igloo with an is ax into a

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Speaker 1: story about and you know, whenever he does that, he

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Speaker 1: comes back with a new product idea. There's a correlation.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure of.

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Speaker 3: It, definitely.

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Speaker 2: And back in your Netflix days, you write about in

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Speaker 2: your book Powerful like there's several anecdotes around your drives

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Speaker 2: to work with read Hastings, and I'm curious, like what

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Speaker 2: role did that corpooling have in your working life and

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Speaker 2: you know, the development of the culture that you did

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Speaker 2: build at Netflix.

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Speaker 1: You know, I often think about when I watched carpool Karaoke.

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Speaker 1: I think, guys, too bad we weren't karaoke, because that

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Speaker 1: would have been really fun if if we had done it.

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Speaker 1: To use it, I don't know, you know, there's something

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Speaker 1: intimate about just being in you know, just the two

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Speaker 1: of us, right, and it was a really safe environment

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Speaker 1: where there weren't any other interruptions, And I think how

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Speaker 1: we kind of learned to use it. At one point,

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Speaker 1: Reid was on the California Board of Education and he

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Speaker 1: would drive a pretty long way to our state's capital

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Speaker 1: and he had a driver. The good news was he

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Speaker 1: had then through three hours of uninterrupted time. The bad

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Speaker 1: news is that he'd use it to call me I'm

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Speaker 1: trapped there, right. So the thing about you know, even

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Speaker 1: having a one on one meeting at work, which you

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Speaker 1: certainly can do. You're surrounded by work, right, You're surrounded

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Speaker 1: by other people doing the interruptions, and you know, thinking

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Speaker 1: about all the things that you could be doing or

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Speaker 1: you should be doing, and the talks that we had

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Speaker 1: about culture. We kind of needed to have just him

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Speaker 1: and me, which is where I could say to him directly,

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Speaker 1: that's insane, nobody's going to do that, right, or you know,

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Speaker 1: or you mean legally, I don't know if we can

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Speaker 1: do that or not, or like, why don't you know?

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Speaker 1: Or I could say then just tell them, no, that's okay.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that's okay to say is no, right.

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Speaker 1: So I think it was a really important part of it.

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Speaker 1: But you know, we had no need to Rita and

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Speaker 1: I work together for gosh, twenty five years, so I

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Speaker 1: mean we had a lot of we had a lot

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Speaker 1: of history and ways of working together that the you know,

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Speaker 1: the car was just an answer. It wasn't critical.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting what you say about the carving that kind

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Speaker 2: of precious time where you're not distracted by anything else.

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Speaker 2: And I'm curious, outside of the car environment, how did

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Speaker 2: you find those those moments or that those times at

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Speaker 2: Netflix when you were this incredibly busy executive, Like, how.

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Speaker 3: Did you create that time for yourself?

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Speaker 1: I have I had a you know, I live in California,

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Speaker 1: so we have pretty great weather all the time. We're

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Speaker 1: kind of like you, you know, in Australia, and so I

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Speaker 1: did lots and lots and lots of my one on

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Speaker 1: ones walking around we are, you know, we had a

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Speaker 1: building next to a park, and so instead of meeting

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Speaker 1: in a conference room, we'd meet going for a walk.

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Speaker 1: And I think that that going for a stroll and

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Speaker 1: having a conversation, it just sets you free, gives you.

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Speaker 1: It's an easy going kind of pace and banter. And

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Speaker 1: so two secrets. I think one of them is get

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Speaker 1: outside and second walk around because it's not such a

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Speaker 1: you know, it's not such an insular environment. The thing

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Speaker 1: about doing all of your meetings, especially about stuff that's

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Speaker 1: people oriented or emotional or controversial or conflict oriented, is

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Speaker 1: if you're inside the box that is your company, you're

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Speaker 1: constantly thinking about, you know, well, who might think, how

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Speaker 1: might this be affected? Which are all things you have

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Speaker 1: to think about. But when you're just going for a stroll,

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Speaker 1: it's just you and me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's a really nice, nice way of looking

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Speaker 3: at it.

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Speaker 2: And how about when it was just you, when you

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Speaker 2: needed to be on your own to do some thinking,

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Speaker 2: like did you have strategies that you would use at Netflix?

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Speaker 1: Then?

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Speaker 2: Just to get away from it all, would you go

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Speaker 2: for walks on your own or do something else?

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Speaker 1: You know, I had for most of my working life,

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Speaker 1: I had three kids at home, and so my break

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Speaker 1: in the day the to and from commute. So I

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Speaker 1: didn't always carpool with read. That was an occasional thing.

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Speaker 1: So that was the kind of the only me time

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Speaker 1: that I had, you know, I think before we got

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Speaker 1: started you ask me something about, you know, the difference

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Speaker 1: between working then and working now. I can't tell you

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Speaker 1: how great it is not to have somebody on either

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Speaker 1: end that doesn't need something from me, It doesn't have

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Speaker 1: a problem to talk about, Like I can go hours

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Speaker 1: without somebody else's problem. It's absolutely one.

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Speaker 3: I can imagine. I can imagine speaking of speaking of problems.

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Speaker 2: I guess and hearing about the concept of radical honesty

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Speaker 2: is something obviously that you write about. Impowerful, and I've

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Speaker 2: heard you speak about and I feel like most companies

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Speaker 2: don't practice this.

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Speaker 3: This is probably the exception rather.

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Speaker 2: Than the rule. How do you teach someone to practice

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Speaker 2: radical honesty or to be radically honest?

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Speaker 1: Well, first, let me tell you why I think it's

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Speaker 1: really important. The thing about politics and about subtle nuances

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Speaker 1: in communication is that they're very inefficient. Right. I write

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Speaker 1: in the book, Look, if I'm going to stab you

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Speaker 1: in the back, you got to turn around. I got

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Speaker 1: to get a knife. I got to stab you. I

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Speaker 1: got you know, hope you die. I got to clean

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Speaker 1: up the boto. I mean, this is very complicated stuff,

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Speaker 1: and it takes a lot of time, and it's a

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Speaker 1: lot easier for me to just learn how to say, look,

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Speaker 1: what you're doing right now makes me crazy. Please stop.

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Speaker 1: And you can say, oh, I didn't realize it made

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Speaker 1: you crazy, and you stop. Right. What a concept, right.

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Speaker 1: And the second thing you said that's really important is

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Speaker 1: you use the word practice, you know, practice radical honesty.

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Speaker 1: Here's the deal. I'm really good at it because I practice.

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Speaker 5: So it is it is a closed loop, right. So

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Speaker 5: it's about efficiency and efficacy. When you say somebody something

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Speaker 5: to somebody's face that helps them improve their performance or

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Speaker 5: be a better part of the team. And if you

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Speaker 5: say something to somebody's face that helps them improve their

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Speaker 5: performance and be a better part of the team. And

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Speaker 5: that's sincerely why you're saying it. Then the person on

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Speaker 5: the receiving end is not going to be all defensive

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Speaker 5: when you tell them they could do something differently. And

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Speaker 5: here's the other part about radical honesty that always gets

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Speaker 5: lost in the noise.

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Speaker 1: So people think.

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Speaker 4: Radical honesty equals feedback, equals constructive criticism, equals telling somebody

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Speaker 4: something that's that they don't want to hear in a

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Speaker 4: really nice way.

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Speaker 1: As a parent, you can translate that into guilt tripping, right,

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Speaker 1: So I say that bad thing that you just did,

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Speaker 1: that was a bad, bad thing, don't do that bad

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Speaker 1: thing again, because if you do do that bad thing again,

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Speaker 1: because you will, you'll feel bad. Right. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: kind of not very effective feedback. So the radical honesty

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Speaker 1: is not only just saying, hey, look, you could do

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Speaker 1: that better in the moment that you're doing it, but

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Speaker 1: also in the moment saying that's exactly what I'm talking about,

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Speaker 1: that was awesome, right, So, which is super effective feedback? Right,

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Speaker 1: the one we all forget about, the one that.

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Speaker 6: Actually works, the one where you get a treat, so

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Speaker 6: you know, It's again the theme we'll have, I think

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Speaker 6: in this conversation is that people can't be what they

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Speaker 6: can't see. And so the more that people can see

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Speaker 6: other people giving each other really honest feedback in person

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Speaker 6: in the moment, the more as an observer you can say, well, that.

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Speaker 1: Wasn't that bad, that wasn't that hard. It's why I

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Speaker 1: have such a visceral reaction to the annual performance review.

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Speaker 1: It's like, really, you give somebody feedback once a year,

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Speaker 1: and you think, you know, what makes you think you're

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Speaker 1: going to be any good at something you only do

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Speaker 1: once a year. I mean, we name one other thing

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Speaker 1: you do once a year in your life that you're

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Speaker 1: good at nothing. So so the important part of the

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Speaker 1: phrase that you use practice radical honesty is practice.

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Speaker 3: Can I ask, like the are there still times though?

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Speaker 3: Can you think of an instance where you do feel.

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Speaker 2: A bit nervous before giving someone some radically honest, constructive feedback?

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Speaker 1: Sure, all the time, I mean, but if it's not,

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Speaker 1: if it's not a little edgy, then it's probably not

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Speaker 1: worth it, right I mean. And the other thing is

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Speaker 1: to keep in mind when you're doing radically honest feedback

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Speaker 1: is to what end right. So I used to tell

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Speaker 1: my HR team. I was just actually it was just

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Speaker 1: at Netflix last week visiting one of my colleagues is

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Speaker 1: now a VP there in HR, and she brought me

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Speaker 1: and sort of like here crumbs Patty, the grandmother of

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Speaker 1: the Netflix call truck. And I told them, I said, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I used to tell Bethany and the group. Yes, we

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Speaker 1: are a service organization. It's not spelled s r v

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Speaker 1: A n T S. And the people and the people

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Speaker 1: that we serve don't work here. The people that we

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Speaker 1: serve with the people all over the world that use

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Speaker 1: the product and the service, right, And it's our job

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Speaker 1: to make sure that we've got the teams and the

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Speaker 1: tools to produce amazing and amazing experience for every one

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Speaker 1: of our customers, so they keep coming back forever. So

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Speaker 1: when I'm saying to you, you know, I think if

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Speaker 1: you just told that to his face for once, then

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Speaker 1: we wouldn't all keep dancing around this problem that's really

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Speaker 1: making us not very functional across these two departments. And

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Speaker 1: you know, you keep telling complaining to me about it,

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Speaker 1: but you don't tell him about it. And I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to tell him about it. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: work for him, So like, this is wasting our time.

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Speaker 1: Just go go for a walk, go sit down with

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Speaker 1: that person. Go this isn't working very well. How can

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Speaker 1: we do it differently? Right? And so there's you know,

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Speaker 1: the thing is, it's funny because you haven't mentioned this yet,

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Speaker 1: but a lot of people read my book and they think, wow,

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Speaker 1: she's such a hard ass, you know that. They meet

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Speaker 1: me and they're like, oh, you're so warm and friendly.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm not talking about being unkind. I'm just

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Speaker 1: talking about telling the truth. It doesn't have to be negative.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I guess what you're saying is that it's

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Speaker 2: often kind to tell the truth then have something go

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Speaker 2: un said, or just talk about something behind their back

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Speaker 2: as opposed to their face.

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Speaker 1: Don't you think so? I mean, don't you think so?

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Speaker 1: You know? For me, when I've watched you know, Sky,

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Speaker 1: I've been doing this for thirty five years and I've

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Speaker 1: watched human behavior, there's two things that are really painful emotions.

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Speaker 1: One of them is shame, right that you did something

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Speaker 1: that you're just embarrassed or humiliated about, and it's a

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Speaker 1: really hard emotion to deal with. And the other one

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Speaker 1: is surprise, like you know, when something happens in like

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Speaker 1: every you feel like everybody knew but you, which kind

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Speaker 1: of leads to shame, right, And so why would anybody

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Speaker 1: want to make another person feel either one of those things?

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Speaker 1: And the way to get ahead of both of those

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Speaker 1: things is just to be honest when the situation is small,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's that build up over time. Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: you can hear that. I mean, I can say that

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Speaker 1: to you. Who was I talking to the other day, Oh,

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Speaker 1: here's a fun story. I'm talking to a woman who's

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Speaker 1: it's about the me too stuff. And she's a reporter

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Speaker 1: for The Guardian in the UK, and she's basically the

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Speaker 1: premise of her article is, Oh, those bad boys in

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Speaker 1: Silicon Valley are making things so uncomfortable for women, those bad, bad,

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Speaker 1: bad young white male tech guys. You know, the Silicon

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Speaker 1: Valley has such a problem. The Silicon Valley has such

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Speaker 1: a problem. And I said, because you've never you've never

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Speaker 1: been discriminated against as a female reporter for the Guardian. Right,

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Speaker 1: She's like, the story is not about me. I said, yes,

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Speaker 1: it is. It's about all is about all of it.

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Speaker 1: It's like, you know, I'm not going there, Like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of bad behavior on here, don't get

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Speaker 1: me wrong, and I'm you know, not proud of it.

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Speaker 1: But the deal that the issues that we're dealing with

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Speaker 1: are fundamental cultural issues at work between men and women,

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Speaker 1: and that's the problem we have to solve, not you know,

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Speaker 1: those scathing bad kids out there in California. There they

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Speaker 1: go again.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it's very trary, very dry.

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Speaker 2: I want to shift gears into the role that you

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Speaker 2: play as an advisor now to companies such as Warby

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Speaker 2: Parker and HubSpot. And I imagine as part of being

434
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 2: an advisor you're doing a lot of mentoring work with

435
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 2: founders and I'm curious as to whether you have any

436
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 2: kind of go to questions that you found a particularly

437
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:24,120
Speaker 2: powerful at helping people grow and gain insight into what

438
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 2: they're sort of grappling with.

439
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. I first I try and take a look. This

440
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 1: is back to the research I told you that I do.

441
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 1: Like when I'm on the plane, when I'm ready to

442
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 1: meet with any group of executives or any company, and

443
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 1: I try and figure out what it is that the

444
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: company or the leadership team says they are. So HubSpot's

445
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 1: a great example. I started working with HubSpot right after

446
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 1: I left Netflix, because Darmesh Shah, who is one of

447
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 1: the co founders of HubSpot, wanted to do a culture

448
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 1: deck for HubSpot that was in fired by the Netflix

449
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 1: culture deck. And he would send me these long emails overnight.

450
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:07,679
Speaker 1: He's an engineer, right, so he'd stay up all night.

451
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: I wake up in the morning, I'm like, well, somebody

452
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 1: didn't sleep last night. And so we worked together for

453
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 1: a long time just Hey and I sort of talking

454
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 1: about and wordsmithing, you know, the document that he was creating.

455
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: But the important work that I did with HubSpot over

456
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 1: time was when I went to Boston and I sat

457
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 1: down with his executive team one on one or as

458
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 1: a group, or with this head of HR and say,

459
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 1: give me an example today of when you saw this demonstrated. Right.

460
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 1: So it's about mostly it's about working with the leaders

461
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 1: of companies saying I don't care what you said if

462
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: it's if it's not demonstrated in what you do. So

463
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: that's where most companies get their knickers in a wad

464
00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: about culture. Right. They wanted to be a document or

465
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 1: a podcast or a film, or a T shirt or

466
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: a slogan or a game, right, and it's not. It's

467
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 1: a series of constructs that says, this is how we're

468
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: going to behave together at work, this is what I

469
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,120
Speaker 1: can expect from you, and this is what you can

470
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 1: expect from me. And so mostly it's about talking to

471
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 1: them about how do they act as leaders that is

472
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: in line with the company they say they want to build. Right?

473
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 1: Does everything line up? Does the system of compensation and

474
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 1: rewards reflect the business case to the customer. Here's a

475
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 1: simple example. I work with a lot of companies who

476
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: have performance bonus programs, particularly in sales, but often for

477
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 1: everybody else. And it's a year end bonus that's based

478
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 1: on employees' performance through the year. And so when I

479
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: dig deep into what those systems actually are, I find

480
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: out that they're very, very administratively heavy exercises that tie

481
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,719
Speaker 1: into a bunch of written goals and expectations and deliverables

482
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 1: and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. And they

483
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 1: always get paid. So if you have a bonus system

484
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 1: that you always pay one hundred percent unless you're not

485
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 1: there anymore, it's not a bonus system anymore. It's not

486
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: a reward system. It's just deferred compensation, and so I

487
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 1: might sit with them and say, since you're putting off

488
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: giving that pay for twelve months, why because it's not

489
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 1: insenting performance. You know, I just coached a company here

490
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: in San Francisco, and I said, really, your number one

491
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: issue is that you're worried about losing people. And here

492
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 1: you are in the city that has the highest rent

493
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: of anywhere in the world, and with the system that

494
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 1: you have, you're telling your millennial employees to tell their landlord,

495
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I could pay an extra thousand dollars a

496
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 1: month rent. Can I give it to you in January?

497
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: Because that's when I get my bonus? Oh I always get,

498
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: so you know That's what I'm saying. So when I

499
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: get inside of companies, I say, wow, that is just

500
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 1: a beautiful vision of who you are. Isn't that lovely?

501
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: That made it looks so good on a T shirt?

502
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: And look at that poster over there? What do you

503
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 1: actually do? What do you actually do? Right? If you

504
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: say it's a we have a culture of adults who

505
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 1: have freedom and responsibility, but they have to ask for

506
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: permission to do anything, then you don't. Really, So that's

507
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: the kind of stuff I do right, I just sort

508
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: of dig in it and I open up every cupboard door.

509
00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: I like that, really about these candy bars in here?

510
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: About that drawer full of chocolate?

511
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 3: Began that's cool.

512
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 2: I've heard you say that you're a business person first

513
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 2: and an HR person second, and then this is what

514
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 2: HR people around the world need to think.

515
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 3: And I'm curious, like, can you take me through how

516
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 3: do you get to know a business?

517
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 2: Like maybe even using one of the companies that you

518
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 2: advise as an example, like what are the questions that

519
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 2: you ask?

520
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 3: What are the things that you're looking at?

521
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I mean I just did a group

522
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: of HR people last week, or maybe it was a

523
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 1: group of CEOs, and it was a classic CEO says, well,

524
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 1: you know, I like your ideas. I could be really

525
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 1: open to it. I'm like, are you about to say karma,

526
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 1: but my HR person And he's like yeah, And I'm like, okay,

527
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: but Karma, my HR person isn't very small. Is that

528
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 1: what you're going to say? It's like, well, I'm not

529
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: sure i'd say that. I'm like, you have someone that

530
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: reports directly to you as a senior executive that you

531
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,239
Speaker 1: don't think is smart? What kind of CEO. Are you,

532
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: second of all, what do you expect from this from her?

533
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 1: I'm assuming it's a her, right, Well, yeah, HR people women,

534
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 1: and like, you know, do you talk to her about

535
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: the business about you know, about your sales cycle, about

536
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: what the revenue forecast is going to be, how you're

537
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: doing your modeling versus you know, performance versus budget. Can

538
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 1: you read a P and L together, a profit and

539
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: laws statement together, because if you can't, you should. And

540
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: you can start by going back home right now and saying, hey,

541
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: you know what I need to do. I need you

542
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: to go spend a month with our CFO and come

543
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: back and tell me about how run rate revenue is calculated.

544
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: It's just we don't expect very much from each other, right,

545
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: and in HR in particular, the expectations are just they're

546
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: almost nothing. And you would never do that in any

547
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: other part of the company. You would never say to

548
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: a product person, tell me about when you're going to

549
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 1: roll that out as an initiative nation, you know, countrywide.

550
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 1: It's just silly, right, And how you're going to know

551
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: it's a good product and how, And you would never

552
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: use any other part of the organization. Go, now, why

553
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: is it that you do that, Oh, because everybody else

554
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: does it, and this is the way we've aways done it.

555
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: Good thinking, carry on, you know, it's just it's just silly.

556
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: It's silly. So so I would say a couple of things.

557
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: You know, the important thing to do is to make

558
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 1: sure if you're in HR or you have HR people

559
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: reporting to you, that they are you know, very qualified

560
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: business people that can tell you who your set of

561
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: competitors is, how to read your profit and loss statement,

562
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: what are your strengths and weaknesses? Is a product or

563
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 1: a category? What the timing is, what your deliverables are,

564
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: what you're you know, what you're going to what you

565
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 1: need to accomplish. Because it's I would tell my team

566
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 1: it's our job to make sure that we've got all

567
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: the teams in place to always be ready for whatever

568
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: incredible opportunity we might have in the business. Conversely, when

569
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 1: I talked to CEOs like I did a couple of

570
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 1: weeks ago, I'm like, imagine what it would be like

571
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: if you had an unbelievable opportunity to succeed in front

572
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 1: of you and you couldn't take it because you had

573
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 1: the wrong team. That's your job, right, what if you know,

574
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: because because I and I said to them, because if

575
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: you don't, this opportunity that you can only see, only

576
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: you can see right now, when you miss it, everybody

577
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: else will see it and somebody else will take it.

578
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: That works. So you know, that's where I get around

579
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: the yes. But it's really important for me to create

580
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: a company that provides career paths for people for the

581
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: rest of their working life. And I'm like, now, that's

582
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:14,280
Speaker 1: just a lie that.

583
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 5: Hasn't been true for sixty five years, So why that

584
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 5: lie still?

585
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 2: You know?

586
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 1: Really? No, seriously, here's my here's my number one question.

587
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 1: When I walk into any room, you know, a thousand CEOs,

588
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 1: raise your hand if you're in the job, a thousand CEOs,

589
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 1: a thousand hr people raise your hand if you're in

590
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: the job that you had when you graduated from college.

591
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 1: Not a single hand goes up, really, And then I say,

592
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: how many of you measure and carry about care about retention?

593
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: N ninety nine hands go up? Like that doesn't strike you.

594
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 3: You's a lot.

595
00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 1: Call me crazy. That doesn't seem to make any sense.

596
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 1: So that's you know, in some ways, I'm not doing

597
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 1: anything radical at all. I'm just sort of stating the obvious.

598
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: And I guess that's kind of the secret to Patty's sauce.

599
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 1: Is I hung around engineers for so long, I just

600
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: stop being able to speak with a lot of nuance.

601
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: And so the engineers and technical people like facts and

602
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 1: data and simplicity, and so when I stop speaking, HR

603
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: speak and I could just talk about you know, oh,

604
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 1: by the way, when you have a conflict with that

605
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 1: person on the other team and you don't ever resolve it,

606
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 1: then it's time wasting because now the whole team has

607
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 1: to operate around this unresolved conflict that you have that, oh,

608
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: by the way, is nobody's business with the two of you,

609
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:54,399
Speaker 1: So could you just fix it and then we don't

610
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: have to deal with it anymore? Thanks?

611
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 2: I love it.

612
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 3: Very good advice, surgery. I want to I want to.

613
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 2: Finish with just a few quick questions about what you're

614
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 2: currently consuming, because I think you know, there's so much

615
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 2: information out there, and I think, you know, for the

616
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 2: average president's had to know like what should I be reading?

617
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 3: What should I be listening to? So I guess to

618
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 3: start with what's what's a great book that you've read?

619
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,720
Speaker 3: You know, perhaps this year or in the last few months.

620
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 1: Oh geez, I'm reading Beth Comstock's book right now. Uh,

621
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: what's the name of it? I mean, I should have

622
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: it here in front of me. I was reading a

623
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 1: book by David Lyons that I didn't like very much

624
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 1: because he does a big long talk about my book

625
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: and how much how stupid he thinks I am.

626
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 4: I like.

627
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: I like all of Patrick Lanciani's stuff. I think he's

628
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: really practical and pragmatic. I like Read Hoffman's book, Daniel

629
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 1: Pink's book. Recent book this year is pretty interesting. I

630
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 1: love Susan Kane's quiet. I think that, you know, the

631
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: understanding of introverts, since I'm not one, has been really helpful.

632
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: You know. I don't find like, like I said at

633
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,280
Speaker 1: the beginning when you and I talked, I'm just books

634
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:22,760
Speaker 1: aren't always something that's really important to me. So here's

635
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: an example. I did a podcast with Kara Swisher, and uh,

636
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,800
Speaker 1: it was one of the best interviews I ever had,

637
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 1: And because she was just really clever about sort of

638
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,839
Speaker 1: bouncing around and getting into really you know, good it

639
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 1: was good conversation. So I've been listening to a lot

640
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 1: of her podcasts. She just did one last week with

641
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,919
Speaker 1: Elon Musk. That was fascinating. I have to check that out,

642
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,399
Speaker 1: so I guess I would. Yeah, her stuff is really good.

643
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: She also interviewed Hillary Clinton the other day and that

644
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 1: was pretty interesting too. But I guess I'll tend to

645
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,359
Speaker 1: do that more than I will. You know it down

646
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: and read a whole business book like you read my book.

647
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 1: You know, at the end of every chapter, how I

648
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,879
Speaker 1: put like here's five questions and here's five bullet points

649
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,879
Speaker 1: of what the chapters about. The reason I did that

650
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: was I pre highlighted it for you because I like

651
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: reading books very much. So when I tell people, you know,

652
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,399
Speaker 1: when I've been a conference and they've given away three

653
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 1: hundred books and like, here's the deal. I pre highlighted

654
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: it for you. It's not a narrative, it's not in

655
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 1: any order, So just flip through the end of every

656
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 1: chapter and go, wow, I'd be interested in how they

657
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 1: put together their staffing strategy and like, just read that chapter.

658
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 1: So podcasts tend to work for me in that way.

659
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 3: So what I go to your podcast?

660
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 1: Oh, it kind of depends on what's coming through in

661
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 1: my Twitter feed. To be honest with you, I like

662
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 1: a lot of the axios political stuff. But you know,

663
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,399
Speaker 1: I also like just a great story. I'm a bit

664
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 1: of a nation public radio addict here, you know. So

665
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 1: it's it depends Science Friday. I love listening to Science

666
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,839
Speaker 1: Friday when I'm driving in the car and finding out,

667
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 1: you know, why elephants have tusks or whatever. I like

668
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 1: doing podcasts like this. I mean, it's fun just to

669
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: have a conversation with people. I think it's natural and

670
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: more human.

671
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so.

672
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 3: I think so.

673
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 2: And any a newsletters that you subscribe to that you

674
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,879
Speaker 2: actually look forward to receiving, not.

675
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,439
Speaker 1: That I can think of right now. Nothing other than

676
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,439
Speaker 1: you know, they're ever all consuming American politics these days.

677
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 1: That's why it's so nice to travel.

678
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 3: Yes, I can imagine.

679
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 2: And finally, if people want to find out more about you,

680
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 2: read your thoughts. Obviously they can get powerful, which I

681
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 2: wholeheartedly recommend it. Such a brilliant read and a great

682
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,760
Speaker 2: companion to the Netflix Culture Deck. How else can people

683
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 2: find if they want more?

684
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: Patty I have a website Pattimcord dot com, and that

685
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 1: has all archives of all my talks and articles and

686
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 1: all that are the good stuff. So you can just

687
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 1: click on there and see what I'm up to.

688
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:19,320
Speaker 3: Fantastic, fantastic. Oh Patty, I have loved talking to you.

689
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 2: It's been fascinating hearing about how you work and about how.

690
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 3: Things worked at Netflix as well. So thank you so

691
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 3: much for your time.

692
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 1: Same to you. It was fun.

693
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 2: Hello there, that's it for today's show. I hope you

694
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 2: enjoyed my chat with Patty and got some interesting and

695
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 2: useful stuff out of it. Now, before you go, you

696
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 2: probably know what I'm about to ask you, but I

697
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 2: will ask you anyway if you're enjoying how you work,

698
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 2: or even if you just enjoyed this episode, maybe this

699
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 2: is the first episode you've listened to of the show.

700
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 2: I would be so appreciative if you left a review

701
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 2: in iTunes for the show, because the more people that

702
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 2: leave reviews, the easier it is for people to find

703
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 2: it in the Apple Store. Just one of those funny

704
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 2: little things about how the algorithms work. So if you

705
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 2: would be so kind as to do that, I would

706
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 2: be so very very grateful. And on that note, that

707
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 2: is it for today and I will see you next time.

708
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.