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Speaker 1: We know that legislation enabling police powers to stop and

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Speaker 1: search individuals for knives and other weapons unlawfully possessed in

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Speaker 1: public places will it pass through Parliament on urgency overnight.

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Speaker 1: Those changes will authorize the police to use handheld scanners

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Speaker 1: to detect, sees and destroy weapons being carried by individuals,

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Speaker 1: also known as wanding. Now joining me in the studio

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Speaker 1: to talk more about this from that real operational perspective

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Speaker 1: is the Assistant Commissioner Travis Worth.

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Speaker 2: Good morning to you, Travis.

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Speaker 3: Morning, Katie.

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Speaker 2: How are you very well?

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Speaker 1: Now you've actually bought in. I know that our listeners

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Speaker 1: can't see this, but we'll try and get a photo

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Speaker 1: because you've actually bought in one of these devices for

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Speaker 1: us this morning. It's actually really quite small.

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Speaker 4: It's compacted, so this is what Codie's talking about as

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Speaker 4: a wand it's probably no more than twenty five centimeters long.

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Speaker 3: It's hand held, YEP.

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Speaker 4: It's designed to fit on to a police officer's accouterm

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Speaker 4: and belt or something similar. It's really quite intrusive. It

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Speaker 4: is simply the designed to do an external quick windover

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Speaker 4: and if there's metal in someone's pocket, obviously including a

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Speaker 4: knife or something similar, it will indicate and then police

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Speaker 4: will take the next step if re.

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Speaker 2: Quiet how many of those are we going to hat?

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Speaker 4: So the legislation was passed overnight. Procurement will now commence

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Speaker 4: and is our intent in the first instance to procure

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Speaker 4: two hundred so there's sufficient devices to go to all

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Speaker 4: stations across the territory and focus particularly on the regional

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Speaker 4: urban settings.

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Speaker 1: In the first instance, an assistant commissioner, will it be

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Speaker 1: something that you know that a police officer can kind

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Speaker 1: of just have on the.

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Speaker 4: Belt look if need be, or they maintain it in

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Speaker 4: their motor vehicles, so it's quite The legislation is really

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Speaker 4: clear around when police can and cannot use these devices.

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Speaker 3: So police cannot.

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Speaker 4: Just walk up to anyone anywhere and start using this

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Speaker 4: device unless they suspect someone's already carrying a control weapon.

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Speaker 4: The law already says that we can do certain things.

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Speaker 4: In that instance, this will just will be able to

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Speaker 4: use this device for those instances these might be personal issue.

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Speaker 4: They'll be issued to police stations and for people to

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Speaker 4: take out on patrol with them. At this stage, we

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Speaker 4: may get to that point, so tell.

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Speaker 1: Me, because there's been a lot of sort of questions

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Speaker 1: I guess over the last twenty four hours about these

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Speaker 1: different areas that are spoken about, so sixteen different areas

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Speaker 1: and just sort of having a closer look at those.

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Speaker 1: So some of those include will Korama Precinct, Parapp Precinct,

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Speaker 1: Fanny Bay Precinct, Bundilla Beach, Leanna Stuart Park, Marra Malac,

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Speaker 1: Nightcliffe and the Nightcliff Foreshore Precinct. Now how large are

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Speaker 1: those precinct areas.

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Speaker 4: So just for your clarity for your listeners, declared high

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Speaker 4: risk areas are not new. They have been around for

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Speaker 4: quite some time. They exist within the Liquor Act. These

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Speaker 4: are the ones you've described a new or existing areas

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Speaker 4: that have been amended. So the Darwin CBD, for example,

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Speaker 4: has already had a declared area in place. Alice Springs

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Speaker 4: CBD has a declared area in place. The intent of

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Speaker 4: that was to manage our correlated harm around licensed premises,

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Speaker 4: whether they be on premise so nightclubs, pubs or takeaway outlets.

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Speaker 4: That was the initial intent, and this legislation or these

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Speaker 4: additional declarations expand some of those areas sign Alice Springs

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Speaker 4: and includes Anti Hill. Now for example, in Palmerston, the

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Speaker 4: expansion includes gateway because there's an alcohol outlet in that location,

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Speaker 4: takeaway and on premise, and then some additional new areas

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Speaker 4: based on the evidence that we've collected over time. This

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Speaker 4: is all evidence based and these declarations are based on

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Speaker 4: where we see issues that are alcorelated. So the legislation

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Speaker 4: that relates to wanding is utilizing those liquoric highrisk declared areas.

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Speaker 4: Those locations are very specific the INTI government website. People

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Speaker 4: can search the website, it will tell them exactly where

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Speaker 4: they are. They are defined boundaries. The idea of this

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Speaker 4: wandering legislation is that if something occurs in one of

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Speaker 4: those locations. So the way the legislation's drafta it says

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Speaker 4: in the last six months. But I'll give you a

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Speaker 4: practical example. Yeah, we have someone we've just arrested in

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Speaker 4: possession of a knife at a location. The authorized officer

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Speaker 4: that can be a senior sergeant or above, can be

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Speaker 4: given that information. They will then assess that information against

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Speaker 4: the number of criteria. So we've got someone in custody

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Speaker 4: for an offense that's applicable. Those offenses can be someone

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Speaker 4: armed with a controlled weapon. As I said, a violence

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Speaker 4: offense has been committed or one or more weapons offenses

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Speaker 4: has been committed. We then need to assess the location

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Speaker 4: the impact using the ones will have at that location.

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Speaker 4: So is it going to actually affect the ability of

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Speaker 4: people to use that particular area. It might be a

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Speaker 4: bus interchange, it could be a shopping center, It could

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Speaker 4: be all sorts of things, depending on where it is,

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Speaker 4: whether we've used the scanning in that location previously, and

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Speaker 4: whether it was effective in increasing public safety. That senior

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Speaker 4: sergeant or above will assess all that information and then

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Speaker 4: provide advice.

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Speaker 1: Is there going to be sort of a delay, you know,

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Speaker 1: if we've got somebody who let's just kind of trying

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Speaker 1: to talk this through practically in my brain, so I

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Speaker 1: know our listeners will be feeling the same as well.

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Speaker 2: So let's say that somebody is at.

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Speaker 1: The Casuarina Bus Exchange for want of a location, there

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Speaker 1: is somebody there who is armed or they believe is

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Speaker 1: armed or threatening somebody with a knife.

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Speaker 2: They call the police.

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Speaker 1: The police then head out to the Casuarina Bus Exchange.

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Speaker 1: Can the police then, like on their way out there,

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Speaker 1: go all right, well, we need to search those that

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Speaker 1: we you know, or like everybody in the vicinity of

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Speaker 1: that area to make sure that there is or is

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Speaker 1: not somebody with a knife.

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Speaker 4: If we are satisfied that an offense has been committed

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Speaker 4: by a person who's armed with a controlled weapon, a

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Speaker 4: prohibited weapon, or a god forbid of firearm, that scenis

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Speaker 4: sergeant can make that decision very quickly. So someone's got

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Speaker 4: on done something that used a bus in to change,

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Speaker 4: for example, they then got onto a bus, that declaration

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Speaker 4: can be made yep, and that bus can be stopped

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Speaker 4: and individuals and that bus could be searched.

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Speaker 3: It could happen relatively quickly.

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Speaker 1: And so being armed with a weapon is an offense, right, yes,

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Speaker 1: So if you suspect that they've got a weapon, they'll

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Speaker 1: be able to be searched.

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Speaker 4: That well, if we already know that the weapon. So

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Speaker 4: the challenge here is if someone's on a bus, we'd

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Speaker 4: actually know who it is. This gives us the opportunity,

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Speaker 4: unless we've got good CCTV, the opportunity to randomly scan

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Speaker 4: people to find out who may be in possession of

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Speaker 4: a weapon on that particular bus.

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Speaker 3: Yef, No, this is not random.

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Speaker 4: We cannot do a search of a bus, for example,

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Speaker 4: without information leading up to an allowing a declaration to

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Speaker 4: be in place. Yeah, any declaration in relation to the

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Speaker 4: ability to use the ones to scan people will be

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Speaker 4: valid for twelve hours.

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Speaker 3: I know that there's.

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Speaker 4: Rehtric around whether what happens if they step outside the

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Speaker 4: boundaries of the declared area.

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Speaker 3: We still have powers.

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Speaker 4: If we think someone is suspected of being in possession

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Speaker 4: of a weapon, we can still search them regardless of.

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Speaker 3: Whether they're in a declared area or not or not.

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Speaker 1: Now, now that's obviously talking about you know, if there

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Speaker 1: is sort of a very real situation that's unfolding in

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Speaker 1: real time where somebody's you know, maybe jumped on a

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Speaker 1: bus that they believe to be armed, or at the

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Speaker 1: bus exchange where they they're believed to be armed.

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Speaker 2: Talk us through how it's going to work.

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Speaker 1: More so in those other high risk areas I believe

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Speaker 1: that they're called that are not news. So Darwin, Casarina,

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Speaker 1: Catherine Tenant Creek, those CBD areas, are there situations where

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Speaker 1: the police can maybe conduct an exercise where you are

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Speaker 1: making sure that people are not coming into town armed.

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Speaker 4: Only when we have in motion that justifies the use.

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Speaker 4: So if we've got a concern that's we've got information

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Speaker 4: that a group of people are going to have a

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Speaker 4: confrontation in a particular location, and we know that there's

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Speaker 4: been weapons use at the location previously, a declaration can

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Speaker 4: be made and that allows us to then go in

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Speaker 4: and use those powers.

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Speaker 1: What if you have information that suggests there is going

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Speaker 1: to be a situation where there could be a fight

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Speaker 1: and there is the potential to be weapons, but you

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Speaker 1: don't have you don't have evidence that they've been used

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Speaker 1: previously in that location.

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Speaker 3: I suggest that's going to be highly unlikely.

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Speaker 2: Okay? Is that because we are just seeing a lot of.

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Speaker 3: No you capture the last six months? Yeah? Right.

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Speaker 4: The reason these declared areas have been identified as they

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Speaker 4: are as we've gone through and done all these assessments,

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Speaker 4: and in the last six months there's been lots of

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Speaker 4: activity that leads us to this point. So we have

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Speaker 4: not identified declared high risk areas that are not going

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Speaker 4: to allow us to implement the declaration to do it

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Speaker 4: wanting activity if need be.

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Speaker 1: Now, Assistant Commissioner, there are people that have been contacting

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Speaker 1: us throughout the morning saying, you know, is everybody going

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Speaker 1: to be searched if they're in that area.

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Speaker 4: Well, within reason, If there's lots and lots of people there,

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Speaker 4: we may not be able to search everyone. We will

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Speaker 4: use what police resources we have to do what we can.

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Speaker 4: We might be targeted, we might know who we need

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Speaker 4: to target yep, and in that case.

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Speaker 3: We'll do that.

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Speaker 4: Other times it'll be an engagement opportunity where we'll search

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Speaker 4: lots of people.

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Speaker 1: So from a police perspective, does it feel pretty clear

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Speaker 1: cut for you guys in terms of those locations and

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Speaker 1: in terms of their not being confusion around those twelve

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Speaker 1: hour periods and the time frames.

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Speaker 4: It's up to twelve hours, it may not need to

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Speaker 4: be for twelve hours for us, it's pretty clear.

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Speaker 3: The legislation is pretty clear.

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Speaker 4: We're going through the process now of making sure that

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Speaker 4: we've got our internal policy correct. We'll then do all

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Speaker 4: our training once we've got the one so everyone who

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Speaker 4: needs to use them knows how to use them, and

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Speaker 4: those the the parameters within which they need to operate.

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Speaker 4: There is another component to this that just I need

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Speaker 4: to be clear so that your listeners understand that you've

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Speaker 4: got the high risk declared areas which are really specific

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Speaker 4: those sixteen but then you also have a suspected area

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Speaker 4: and that is outside of a declared area.

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Speaker 3: So we've got.

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Speaker 4: Information that suggests that something's going to happen. It could

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Speaker 4: be in an urban, a regional, or a remote setting.

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Speaker 4: There is the opportunity within the legislation for the Commission

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Speaker 4: to consider the information and then declare an area as

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Speaker 4: a suspected area and we're able to use the wanting

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Speaker 4: powers in those locations.

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Speaker 2: And how fast can a decision like that be made?

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Speaker 1: You know, say that you suspect something like that's going

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Speaker 1: to happen and you then need to you know, you

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Speaker 1: need to get that approval or the officers need to

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Speaker 1: get that approval from a senior sergeant or above. How

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Speaker 1: fast will that approval process happen?

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Speaker 4: So in the Northern Territory and the Joint Emergency Services

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Speaker 4: Communications Center JESK, as the listeners will know it as

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Speaker 4: we have a superintendent and a senior sergeant, the watch

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Speaker 4: commander and the Charity Judy superintendant on twenty four seven

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Speaker 4: every day of the year. Those individuals work with we

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Speaker 4: have what's called tactical Intel. It's on twenty four hours

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Speaker 4: a day and they're able to assess everything going on

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Speaker 4: across the territory, and those two individuals that senior sergeant

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Speaker 4: and that superintendent can make these declarations as quickly as

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Speaker 4: needed so that we.

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Speaker 3: Can get in and do it needs to do as required.

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Speaker 3: So pretty well, we're not talking days.

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Speaker 4: We don't need judicial approval, and it's not something we'll

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Speaker 4: overstep because we'll make sure there's good governance in what

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Speaker 4: we're doing to ensure that the public don't fear that

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Speaker 4: we're going to be jackbooting around searching everyone.

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Speaker 3: That's not the case at all.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've got a question here from Noel in Humpty Doo.

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Speaker 1: He said, Hi, kad, I wake up this morning and

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Speaker 1: become a criminal for carrying a leather man.

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Speaker 2: I'm sixty one.

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Speaker 1: I've carried a knife or a tool for most of

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Speaker 1: it And is this tool will it choose every day

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Speaker 1: for all sorts.

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Speaker 2: Of things, and now I'm a criminal? Is that right? Questions?

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Speaker 3: Not not at.

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Speaker 4: All, depending on what he's carrying his leatherman for. If

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Speaker 4: he's carrying his leatherman to do arm robberies, and then yeah,

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Speaker 4: he's in the wrong space. But if he's carrying it

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Speaker 4: because that's just the normal course of his life and

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Speaker 4: he can justify its possession, then he's not a criminal

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Speaker 4: at all. So I get the confusion there, but it's not.

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Speaker 4: It's when we can identify it for an unlawful purpose,

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Speaker 4: when you're carrying your leatherm and in your sock and

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Speaker 4: the blades out, well, that looks a bit different to

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Speaker 4: if you've got it on your belt, as a lot

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Speaker 4: of pastoralis for example, might do.

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Speaker 2: Can I just confirm as well?

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Speaker 1: It's youth and adults that can be searched in this

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Speaker 1: way everybody.

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Speaker 2: Now, Also what happens if someone refuses?

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Speaker 4: So if you refuse to be subjected to a search,

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Speaker 4: that automatically allows us to search you, and that then

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Speaker 4: is clearly indicated that there might be something that the

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Speaker 4: level of suspicion has been raised, we can search you.

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Speaker 3: It is an offense also.

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Speaker 4: Not to and then we'll be able to use other

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Speaker 4: provisions so that the powers are already pre existing to

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Speaker 4: be able to make sure we search thoroughly.

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Speaker 1: Now, obviously this has already happened in Queensland, so we're

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Speaker 1: basing this off what's happening in Queensland. Are there any

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Speaker 1: lessons to be learned out of Queensland?

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Speaker 3: Very much so? We've used, so they went through a

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Speaker 3: twelve month trial.

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Speaker 4: They've earlier this year actually implemented their legialtive framework to

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Speaker 4: support this. We've utilized their lessons learnt on the way

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Speaker 4: in which declared areas operate, the way in which the

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Speaker 4: type of ones they use. So a lot of the

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Speaker 4: work's been done for us, and we've taken the best

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Speaker 4: pieces of the work they've done and we've implemented that here.

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Speaker 4: We know that we're going to have to continue to

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Speaker 4: look at what we're doing to make sure it's working,

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Speaker 4: make sure we're not stepping outside what the public expect

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Speaker 4: us to do. But at the moment, from what we

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Speaker 4: can see in a way in which we've approached and

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Speaker 4: a testing we've done to this, it's in a good

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Speaker 4: place at the moment. And obviously it'll come out within

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Speaker 4: about six weeks time from now, and we'll roll it

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Speaker 4: out and use it and we'll report back obviously on

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Speaker 4: how we're going.

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Speaker 2: Oh what's going to ask when is it going to start?

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 4: So we've got to go through the procurement process, the training,

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Speaker 4: make sure our people are ready, make sure the community

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Speaker 4: are ready as well. We need to do good media

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Speaker 4: with them to make sure the community particularly, it's going

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Speaker 4: to be confrontational with some people. It's not intended to

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Speaker 4: be the case, but unfortunately society has changed. Knives weapons

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Speaker 4: are being possessed for reasons that are not lawful, YELP,

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Speaker 4: and that causes us considerable concern. There's been obviously lots

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Speaker 4: of incidents in the territory where we've had injury and

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Speaker 4: death as a consequence of edged weapons, and this is

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Speaker 4: a tool to hopefully prevent a lot of that harm

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Speaker 4: being caused in the future.

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Speaker 1: How big a difference do you think it's going to make.

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Speaker 4: I hope that it actually makes people think twice. What

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Speaker 4: we can do is if we identify someone who is

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Speaker 4: carrying a weapon, there are three things we can do.

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Speaker 3: We can seize it, we can destroy it, or we can.

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Speaker 4: Prosecute that individual. Now there is an educative process to this.

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Speaker 4: It shouldn't be carrying a knife unless you have a

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Speaker 4: lawful reason.

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Speaker 3: Too.

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Speaker 4: When we talk to people who we find in possession

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Speaker 4: of knives, there's a myriad of reasons. It could be

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Speaker 4: self protection, they've got it to cut their meat, whatever

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Speaker 4: it could be. So we need to be able to

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Speaker 4: work our way through that and this whole education process

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Speaker 4: to prevent people from carrying knives that are not for

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Speaker 4: lawful reasons is a lot of what this will lead to.

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Speaker 4: We hope the punitive aspect of having to want people

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Speaker 4: with this device over time means that less people are

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Speaker 4: going to be possessing knives in our in public spaces.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and look, I think that I reckon a lot

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Speaker 1: of people really do want this to make a difference.

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Speaker 1: They're hoping that it does make a difference, and I

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Speaker 1: guess time will tell just how big a difference it makes. Now,

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Speaker 1: I want to ask you about the raising of the

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Speaker 1: criminal age. We know that it's officially coming into place

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Speaker 1: on August one. How have the police had to prepare

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Speaker 1: for this?

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Speaker 4: So we've been working with all of our colleagues from

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Speaker 4: other government departments from when this announcement was first brought

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Speaker 4: to our attention. We've spent We've got steering committees, working groups,

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Speaker 4: We've done a power of work. We're at a point

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Speaker 4: now where we're training our people they understand what it means.

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Speaker 4: We've had to work very closely with our territory, Families,

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Speaker 4: Housing in a Community, and Department of Health because no

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Speaker 4: longer is someone under the age of twelve going to

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Speaker 4: be taken to a police station and placed into custody.

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Speaker 4: They need to go somewhere else, to a safe place.

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Speaker 2: What if they don't have somewhere safe to go?

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Speaker 4: So the safe places have been identified through territory families,

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Speaker 4: and we will take that young person to territory families.

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Speaker 4: So ow, we've got a very defined process. Each location

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Speaker 4: of the territory has a different process because there's different

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Speaker 4: capacity and capability with agencies and nolizations. But in essence,

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Speaker 4: we take a young person into our care, so longer

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Speaker 4: in custody we usually Care and Protection Children's Act, we

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Speaker 4: find a responsible adult and we return the responsible adult.

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Speaker 4: If we cannot do that, we'll be in contact with

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Speaker 4: territory families who have twenty four to seven presents across

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Speaker 4: the territory. But let's say an urban setting like Darwen,

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Speaker 4: We'll let them know we can't find somewhere for this.

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Speaker 3: Young person to go.

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Speaker 4: They will then provide us the ability to take them

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Speaker 4: to a safe place which territory families have identified, and

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Speaker 4: we'll be able to take that young person to a

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Speaker 4: safe place so they can be cared for.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So it does sound as though there's got to

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Speaker 1: be a bit of a change of tact from territory

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Speaker 1: families perspective.

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Speaker 4: I guess well, in our Springs, those safe places have

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Speaker 4: been in place for some time. It'll be a new

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Speaker 4: process for Dawn, but it's a great step forward because

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Speaker 4: no longer is someone under the age of twelve. They

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Speaker 4: won't be put through the judicial system. They'll put through

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Speaker 4: if they're behaving badly, if they're committing what would have

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Speaker 4: been a criminal offense. Otherwise there won't be criminal criminally

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Speaker 4: responsible for that conduct. But they need to be put

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Speaker 4: through programs similar to what may have looked like diversion.

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Speaker 3: It won't be called diversion. It'll be like a therapeutic program, and.

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Speaker 4: The working with their families to make sure that everything's

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Speaker 4: okay at home, determine why they're doing what they're doing,

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Speaker 4: and try and put measures in place intodict and make

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Speaker 4: them safer in their environment so they're not out doing

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Speaker 4: the things that they shouldn't be doing.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's it, and I think that that's what lots

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Speaker 1: of people are a bit worried about, because you know,

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Speaker 1: even ourselves we see through different pressure releases that come

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Speaker 1: through from time to time from the police. We're you know,

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Speaker 1: unfortunately in the territory, young people under the age of

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Speaker 1: twelve are engaging in what many do deem criminal behavior,

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Speaker 1: but they're now not being considered you know, I guess

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Speaker 1: for you know, for criminal responsibility of that behavior.

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Speaker 4: What's key here is if a crime is committed, so

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Speaker 4: someone's house is broken into, someone has a car stolen,

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Speaker 4: or there is a robbery at a ob service stational

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Speaker 4: supermarket for example, that's still on offense. We'll investigate it

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Speaker 4: as an offense. We'll still do what we need to do.

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Speaker 4: Victim management is still really important. That's forefront of what

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Speaker 4: we do. But if we identify a person under the

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Speaker 4: age of twelve as being the offenders of between ten

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Speaker 4: and twelve, then that person, instead of being prosecuted or diverted,

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Speaker 4: they will be placed before territory families to deliver this

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Speaker 4: therapeutic program. So there'll still be outcomes, and the idea

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Speaker 4: is to prevent those young people. Hopefully by the time

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Speaker 4: turned twelve and if they were going down a particular path,

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Speaker 4: they've been able to turn the corner and they've gone

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Speaker 4: down a path where they're in a safer place. They're

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Speaker 4: in a better place and they're actually no longer behaving

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Speaker 4: in that way.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's hope.

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Speaker 1: So now I do want to ask you just very

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Speaker 1: quickly before we wrap up this morning, in terms of

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Speaker 1: we saw at the Northern Australia Conference that was happening

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Speaker 1: yesterday there was protesters up on the stage. It's not

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Speaker 1: the first time that we've sort of seen protesters rock

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Speaker 1: up somewhere where they're probably not wanted or invited, but

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Speaker 1: they rock up to protest. Has it become a bit

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Speaker 1: more of an issue for us here in the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 4: Look, we knew full well that there might have been

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Speaker 4: an increase in this type of activity as fracking became

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Speaker 4: more rule for the territory.

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Speaker 3: That particular instance.

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Speaker 4: We're aware of it. Security dealt with it. Yes, it's confronting.

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Speaker 4: At the time, they didn't community criminal offenses. Police weren't

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Speaker 4: required to respond. We are well aware that it's popping

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Speaker 4: up all over the place.

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Speaker 3: We'll deal that as required.

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Speaker 4: If criminal offenses have been committed, it's someone's democratic right

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Speaker 4: to be a protest in the right way. But when

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Speaker 4: committal criminal offenses are committed as a consequence and then

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Speaker 4: that's when we become involved.

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Speaker 2: Is it deemed like public nuisance?

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Speaker 4: Depending on that's a that's a subjective test. It probably

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Speaker 4: could be. I'm sure that was confronting for those who

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Speaker 4: were exposed to it. We we will do what we

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Speaker 4: can if we're told, if any advance.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and if they need that help, I guess of course. Well,

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Speaker 1: Assistant Commissioner Travis Wurst, we better leave it there. Thank

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Speaker 1: you as always for your time. Thanks for joining us

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Speaker 1: this morning.

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Speaker 3: No problems,