WEBVTT - Emergency Episode: The Big Build, IBAC and Ralph Carr 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:05.480 Welcome to laud the podcast. I'm Lex Lasry, I'm Greg 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:10.240 Barnes and Greg We last weekend did the first podcast 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:13.000 in front of an audience at the tell Type Winery 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:14.960 at Mansfield and I don't know about you, well, I 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:16.880 do know about you, but for myself, I had a 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:17.400 great time. 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:20.840 I thought it was fantastic. It's firstly, it's fantastic winery, 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:26.800 great building and magnificent wines. Secondly, and equally, it was 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:30.760 a terrific crowd, I mean, interesting bunch of people and 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:39.000 enthusiastic and of course Australian's True crime podcast. Michelle is 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:42.240 also an extraordinary stand up comedian. 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:45.440 That's right, And as musicians would say, she opened for us, 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:47.480 and she opened for it was a great privilege because 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:48.839 she was fantastic, she was brilliant. 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:54.600 But we will go anywhere, anytime, any day, and now 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:55.040 we've got. 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:57.080 To be careful what we wish for. Yes, that's right. 0:00:57.480 --> 0:01:00.440 But there's an email address in the link to this podcast, 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:03.440 so if you're interested in having us in your region 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:06.360 to do a podcast in front of an audience, we're 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:08.360 happy to take part. 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:11.520 The first one we'll get us from Port Headlin Western Australia. 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:13.560 Well, we could do that, we could do that. We 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:15.560 don't mut No, we can go back to Darwin. I 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:17.120 could go back to Darwen. Well, I wash all the 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:21.960 juges I used to. No, we're not doing one at 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:24.880 Hobart on board with it? Yeah, okay, I didn't say that. No, 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:29.360 this is what might be described by Alistair Campbell and 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:33.880 RORYS Stewart as an emergency episode. Normally our episodes come 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:36.119 out on a Wednesday, first thing in the morning. It's 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:39.800 at about four am I've noticed, by the way. But 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:41.840 we're doing this one because there are some issues that 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:44.480 we want to talk about which are particularly topical. So 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:45.360 let's get into it. 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:49.600 So, just for the listeners, that proposed Royal Commission into 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:53.160 the Big Build is into allegations of corruption which have 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:57.680 been primarily driven by a huge number of news stories 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:02.279 in the Age or the nine newspapers, but elsewhere as well, 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:06.480 over probably more than twelve months now, and so that 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:09.560 is the purpose of the Royal Commission, not into you know, 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:11.240 should we have built this or built that? 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:14.160 But I know one thing that irritates you and irritates 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:17.480 me a bit as well, is that the opposition have 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:21.360 said if in government and controlling the Royal Commission. There's 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:24.040 a list of what they describe as twenty five non 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:29.360 negotiable witnesses that have to be called. So it seems 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:32.520 to me, just putting it in relatively neutral terms, that 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:35.160 they're getting way ahead of themselves, because in a royal commission, 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:37.880 you don't decide who you're going to call, at least 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:40.600 until you've got settle terms of reference and know what 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:41.840 you're investigating well. 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:45.440 And also you know lexis being very modest, but you have, 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:48.280 of course extensive experience with royal commissions. You ran one 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:51.600 yourself in Victoria in relation to an ambulance contract I 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:54.720 think twenty odd years ago. You're involved in the famous 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:56.840 Costic and Royal Commission. We've talked about this in the past. 0:02:57.160 --> 0:02:59.760 My understanding is it's a matter for the Royal Commissioner 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:04.680 and his or her or their council assisting to determine 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:05.840 who's going to be called. 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:08.560 Correct, Yes, and there's a I mean, when you start 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:11.640 a Royal commission, the first thing you do is issues 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:15.600 su poenis and get documents work out by reference to 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:17.840 the terms of reference, what the issues are that you're 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:20.760 going to have to investigate, and then as you analyze 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:22.519 the material, you decide who you're going to need to 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:24.880 hear from in the witness box. Yeah, that's how the 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:28.919 witness list is developed. This sort of smacks of it's 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:32.760 sort of a bit like manatory sentencing. It's saying, we 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:35.480 don't really trust the commissioner to make his own or 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:38.360 her own decisions about witnesses, so we're going to have 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:41.040 a list we want, you know, Jess Wilson saying we 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:46.480 want these particular people publicly flogged for our own political advantage. Yes, 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:49.920 I mean that's what she's saying. I mean, it's really outrageous, 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:51.200 but it's fairly typical. 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:55.640 Of politicians these days, the lack of respect for the 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:58.960 independence of the judiciary and Royal commissioners are independent. 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.720 Royal commissioner will almost certainly be either a serving or 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:05.680 acting or retired judge. 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:09.400 Yeah what about you, Lex, No, I'm not available, and 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:11.560 we've got to put the podcast first. 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:13.440 I've just got a feeling I wouldn't be high on 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:14.200 anyone's list. 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:17.359 Well, that could be a compliment, Yeah it is, I 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:20.239 mean it should have been. I don't know why Jacinda 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:23.520 Allen didn't say, let's do it months ago because I 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:25.440 didn't think it was that big an issue for a while. 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:27.120 I know you and I have talked about this. I 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:29.760 mean it was in the age and Nick McKenzie, who's 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:33.080 a fantastic journalist, was running at hard but I didn't 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:34.120 think it was really resonating. 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:35.520 But I think over time. 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:38.120 What happens with those stories is that people started They 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:40.719 might know the details, but they just think something's wrong. 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:43.800 And there was a lot of momentum around it, and 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:46.120 Ben Carroll did the right thing in my view. 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:46.760 I mean, I'm a. 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:48.800 Huge fan of royal commissions, but I think he. 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:51.880 Had to do it, and look, it might well be worthwhile, 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:53.719 but I just think you've got to let the process 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:57.200 develop according to the direction of the Royal Commissioner. And 0:04:57.240 --> 0:04:58.640 as you say, I've counseled assisting. 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:01.440 I thought that or well, now, what a week since 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:04.000 he announced it, I thought he might have moved to 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:07.600 had some names in mind and got it set up. 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:07.960 How long. 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:12.479 Normally after the announcement of a royal commission, is a 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:15.680 commissioner appointed and what's the process for appointment lex I mean, 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:19.520 does the Attorney General ring around or yeah. 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:23.040 There'd be a list of names I mean, I hear gossip, 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:25.920 you probably do tell I'm not going to say, am 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:28.359 I on the list. I've got bad news for you. 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:30.840 If it's bad news, it's good news because I want 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:32.640 to keep doing the podcast. I was thinking about how 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:34.080 I was going to do the podcast and be a 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:36.280 Royal Commissioner at the same time. I've heard two or 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:39.760 three names that I presume are on the A Teeney General. 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:41.720 When we next, when we get out of this studio, 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:44.480 I'll tell you, and you can tell Matthew. Yeah, but 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:45.919 don't just keep it between you. 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:49.000 Don't wear a while while I'm talking to you. I look, 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:52.800 the sooner someone is appointed, the better because that person, 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:56.840 once they've got their letters patent in terms of reference, 0:05:56.839 --> 0:05:59.200 then they can so how much does it usually take 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:01.159 to Oh, I can take only a few days. Yeah, 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:03.400 I mean the government could decide now if they've got 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:07.440 someone they favor for the job, and I gather they have, and. 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:11.240 Then as I understand that the council assisting role, it's 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:14.560 generally the Royal Commissioner says, I want excess council assisting. 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:17.760 Yes, that's what happens. Yeah, sometimes this listen to General 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:21.680 insist that someone that they favor be placed in that role. 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:24.720 But interesting, Yes, that's interesting, isn't it. And what happens 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:30.080 wind doesn't always work out, but normally the Commissioner will 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:33.960 get to choose council assisting and bring them on board 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:36.520 quickly because plans have to be made. I mean, this 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:39.120 is a Royal commission Again, we talked about this recently, 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:41.599 but they really are gained to need to get on 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:43.760 with it. I mean a big bill is huge. It's huge, 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:45.080 massive amount. 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:49.520 Of years of years of material one assumes. Yeah, I 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:52.280 mean a gig of the subpoenas going to the department, 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:56.720 to the government, to the union, to the builders politicians. 0:06:57.160 --> 0:06:59.680 Yeah, and you. 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:04.240 Know Nick mackenzie and the age will get drawn in 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:08.200 no doubt, not because they've done anything wrong. Nick is 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:11.040 a friend of mine and I think without them you 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:16.040 wouldn't have these revelations. But sometimes journalists get dragged in 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:20.800 about where they you know, sources, etc. And you know 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:25.000 it's going to be very complex. But I really hope, 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:31.680 for the sake of responsible politics and responsible administration of 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:35.280 the justice system that the opposition, once the Royal Commissioner 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:36.600 is appointed, just shut up. 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:39.320 Well, the thing is, we're not that far away from 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:42.280 the election. So yeah, the question is will the government 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:45.600 feel free to go ahead and make the arrangements for 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:50.000 the Royal Commission now or do they see the caretaker 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:53.800 period approaching and think, well, we really need the agreement 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:56.320 of the opposition that because they could be the government. 0:07:56.840 --> 0:07:58.720 But what's the opposition going to do? 0:07:58.800 --> 0:07:59.320 Let's say they. 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:02.400 Will have said what going to do? They've said, we've 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:06.040 got a set of terms of reference that we want implemented, 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:08.679 and we've got a list of want if you're running 0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:11.840 a Royal commission. Let's say you're running a Royal Commission, 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:15.880 Lex and there's a change of government. A new attorney says, right, Lex, 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:18.360 we've changed the terms of reference and we've got a 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:20.800 bunch of people. We're going to tell you you've got a call. 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:25.000 Can they do that? Well, they can? I mean a 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:27.880 Royal commission. I might just say, I'm not copying that. 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:31.120 A Royal Commission is the executive it is the exercise 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:34.960 of the Royal prerogative. It's an instrument of executive government. 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:37.840 So the new government, as I understand it, would be 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:38.959 within their rights to do that. 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:42.040 There was pressure on you. You you did the Costigan 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:45.720 Royal Commission, which unless you're of a certain age, and 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:47.920 I just assumed that most people who listened to this 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:51.120 podcast are younger than me and certainly younger than you 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:56.160 Lex yes lifetime, not as young as Matthew. My memory 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:58.640 of that was that there was pressure on Costigan from 0:08:58.640 --> 0:08:59.920 the Hawk government to wind it up. 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:03.319 Yes, while there was, and that was in the context 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:05.480 of the inquiries that we were conducting in relation to 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:09.840 Kerry Packer Goanna. Yes. The Costick and Royal Commission was 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:13.560 a Royal commission established by the Fraser government in nineteen eighty. 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:17.040 Frank Costigan was the Royal Commissioner and he was assisted 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:20.839 by Douglas Maher later Douglas Mark you see Rex Wild 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:23.880 and myself. I was only there for a part of 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:28.240 the time. The Royal Commission was an inquiry into generally 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:31.800 the activities of the Federated chip Painters and Dockers, who, 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:35.400 apart from being a waterside union, were also a criminal organization. 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:40.199 But it had in fairness, I mean Frank Costigan, who 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:45.240 I was a lovely man whom I admired, he felt 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:47.280 the pressure from the Hawk government and I think to 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:50.960 some degree his relationship with Bob Hawk diminished as a 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:52.880 result of the po he told me about it. I 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:54.559 didn't know that well and he told me about it. 0:09:55.520 --> 0:10:00.480 It was really difficult, but we had been going for 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:01.920 three years. I think that. 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:03.920 But I think that, you know, just come back to 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:05.880 your point. You talked to used a couple of technical 0:10:05.960 --> 0:10:08.880 terms we might need to explain. But a royal commission 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:10.640 is not like it's not like a course, not like 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:10.960 a court. 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:12.120 That's what people see. 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.040 I think a lot of people think. They think you 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:17.480 go to a royal commission and the Royal Commission says, 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:20.480 you know that you've been a naughty boy naughty girl. 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:24.880 That's equivalent to it being you know, you've found guilty 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:25.959 and you should go to jail. 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:28.520 I mean, and that's the way. That's what I've that's the. 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:31.440 Problem with what Jess Wilson is doing. She's basically saying, 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:34.679 this is a sort of star chamber stuff. You know, 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:37.000 this is the inquisition. These are the people that you've 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:41.360 got to go after their for their acts of you know, 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:45.120 henas acts. I mean, it's appalling behavior I've never seen. 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:46.760 I've never seen. 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:47.959 I mean, there's been a lot. 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:50.319 There are royal commissions every five minutes in this country, 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:54.480 but I've never seen one where a political party's done that. 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:57.480 Now, as far as I know, it's never happened. The 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:00.960 terms of reference are not intended to include a to witnesses. Yeah, 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:05.520 I think it's the opposition trying to ensure that a 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:09.600 commissioner who's not in favor of a public realification of 0:11:09.640 --> 0:11:13.480 politicians can't avoid it because they'll be compelled to call 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:15.400 the witnesses. Yeah. But I mean it's one thing to 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:17.880 say these witnesses are got to be called, but when 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:19.600 they get into the witness box and take the oath 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:23.439 or affirmation, the question is what happens next. Yeah, you've 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:25.440 got to have material to put to them, this stuff 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:27.600 that they've got to be asked about which is relevant 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:29.800 to the terms of reference, and if there's not, then 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:31.160 they shouldn't be in the witness box. 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:34.520 I gave evidence in the Royal Commission months. It was 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:37.199 in Tasmania in ninety ninety four. I was chief of 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:40.000 staff to Ray Groomer, great Melbourne football and former premier, 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:42.640 and we were going to and in fact they did 0:11:42.679 --> 0:11:44.720 after I left, reduce the size of Parliament. Was a 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:49.120 guy called Trevor Morling, who was a former Federal Court judge, judge, 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:52.520 and so my evidence was pretty benign. He was asking 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:55.760 what you know about the government's attitude and why would 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:59.040 you reduce numbers? But even that, which was a pretty 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:03.880 tame exercise, and you know, being a lawyer, I understood 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:06.400 the witness box. But it's it's not an it's not 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:09.320 a pleasant experience. And that was very benign, but just 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:11.240 not a pleasant experience or anyone. 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:14.280 The witness box is a very lonely, drafty place. 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:16.440 And there's no anesthetic, not like owing to the dentists. 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:18.360 And you can go to the dentist right and think, 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:20.720 I wish I wasn't here like a witness box, but 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:22.040 at least you get an anesthetic. 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:23.400 There should be. 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:26.880 There should be, like I think, I think there should 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:31.360 be just a little packet of half valium, just a 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:33.880 little cut in hard not just tissues, not just tissues, 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:36.240 little valium. But a psychiatrist who said to me once 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:40.079 this is off topic, that in her opinion, valium should 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:44.000 be available in supermarkets. What did the boys light up? 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:48.079 What did Australian crawl call it? A mother's little helper 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:48.680 is coming out. 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:58.120 It's coming out for more. As you know, the Iback 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:01.479 report on Operation Richmond dropped yesterday. 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:06.400 One of Victoria's most secretive and prolonged corruption investigations has 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:11.800 finally revealed damning claims of serious and concerning conduct by 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:16.800 former Premier Daniel Andrews and his government. Operation Richmond detailed 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:21.960 extraordinary abuses of power from union leader Peter Marshall that 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:26.520 was not only allowed but fostered by the Labor government. 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:30.920 Just to deal with both sides of politics. I would 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:34.240 have thought, my opinion is the conclusions they came to 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:38.959 about particular the relationship between the Andrews government and the UFU, 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:42.320 the United Firefighters Union and Peter Marshall was pretty concerning 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:44.560 and a lot of people are saying, you now have 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:47.040 an insight into what life under the Andrews government was 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:49.079 really like because that's the way they did business. 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:52.520 Well, I mean, they wouldn't be the first government in 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:56.320 Australia that's done business in that way, including governments that 0:13:56.360 --> 0:13:57.640 do business with corporates. 0:13:57.880 --> 0:13:58.800 But it's. 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:02.520 You know, I think I think what was interesting about 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:05.600 that was the extent to which was it. Peter Marshall, 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:07.960 who was the Secretary of the Union, fought to keep 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:12.800 it under wraps. Yes, for a long long time and 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:16.560 it's probably not served them well because it's now comes 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:19.040 out in the context of coming up to an election. 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:25.440 But it does say something about how this this well 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:29.560 the Andrews government did business. But as I say, I 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:31.400 think that's one of the issues in Australia as a 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:35.080 lack of transparency amongst governments in particularly. I mean we 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:38.000 talk about it in the past, but it happens now. 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:42.880 I mean, you know, I said, you know in Tasmania 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:44.800 with this football stadium they want to build, and they're 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:49.680 certainly not making any accusations of any nature, but you know, 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:53.240 the process is hardly transparent. No, you know, I mean 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:56.160 you've got a government that got told by every independent 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:57.360 expert don't build it. 0:14:57.360 --> 0:14:58.000 It's a dud. 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:01.800 You know, it's a suburban ru loop of Tasmania and 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:05.760 the government just dismisses it all and you you know, again, 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:11.720 it's just a complete lack of transparency around process and 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:13.040 that seems to have happened here. 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:15.720 Yeah. I think one of the difficulties was that Jane Garrett, 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:17.960 who I think had the respect of most people. 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:20.480 She was a former minister, she was the response. 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:26.840 She died, Yes, she was sidelined by Andrews in these negotiations, 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:30.600 and I think that's a really people are really upset 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:33.320 about that. And I understand why. The thing about the 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:36.160 whole Iback issue, which no doubt we'll talk to Robert 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:39.680 Redlick about next week, is this definition of corrupt conduct. 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:41.440 If you look at the Iback Act and look at 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:45.640 the definition, you see a list of pieces of conduct 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:48.480 that can amount to corrupt conduct, but only if they 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:51.560 can be the basis of a criminal offense. And a 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:55.920 lot of people say, Tony Wheeley says, Anthony Wheeley says, 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:59.840 the level is too high. It can be lass different. 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:02.880 You said, well, it's the KAC Act, the I Act. 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:05.920 In New South they got my old political boss, Nick Grana, 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:06.840 I think, unfairly. 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:08.560 But that's a. 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:12.080 Very as I understand it, a very broad definition doesn't 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:14.520 require the establishment of a criminal offense before you can 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:16.640 conclude that conduct was corrupt. 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:20.200 I think that's the right approach. Yeah. 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:23.520 I mean, there's an interesting and it's it's a podcast 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:25.920 for another day. That's interesting to look at all of 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:29.320 these anti corruption commissions. I mean, the criticism of some 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:31.920 of them. Tasmania is one, and I think South Australia. 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:35.360 The other is that they're too secret. But on the 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:40.040 other hand, people's reputations are trashed. I acted for a 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:43.360 guy once once aware or in relation to what, but 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:47.440 he had a very minor role, as he had a 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:52.880 contract with a government entity and he had a minor 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:56.520 role in this matter in the sense that and in 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:59.400 fact he wasn't in any trouble at all. But you know, 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:02.040 he was in the newspaper the next day because you'd 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:05.000 given evidence and the government entity ring instead of were 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:09.000 canceling your contract. I felt very sorry for him. It 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:14.800 was just absolutely classic guilt by association. And I'm a 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:17.199 bit troubled by anti corruption commissions and. 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:19.760 Yeah, and I think it's I think that issue has 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:23.199 got to be well supervised by the commissioner whoever is 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:26.919 hearing the evidence, to say, well, it's one thing to 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:29.760 get someone into the witness box and make allegations where 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:32.639 the allegation has become the story. It's another thing again 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:35.600 to have assembled a lot of evidence that demonstrate that 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:38.080 someone is corrupt or has committed an offense and have 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:40.159 that put to them. I mean, I think the public 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:42.920 are entitled to know when that's happened, but I agree 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:45.520 with you. You do need to be very careful about trashing 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:49.080 someone's reputation, and publicity of that kind can destroy a 0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:52.960 reputation incredibly quickly. You never recover from it. No, no, 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:54.280 you never recover from it. 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:56.720 I had a guy ring me a few years ago. 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:58.800 I'd acted for him in a criminal matter. He had 0:17:58.840 --> 0:17:59.520 been convicted. 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:03.440 He was then quitted on appeal, but if you googled 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:07.639 him seven or eight years later, came up and he 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:12.040 couldn't get government. It was after a couple of government 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:14.880 contracts for his trade. And oh no, sorry, we saw 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:17.639 this didn't matter that I wrote a letter saying, hang on, 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:18.520 he was quitted. 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:22.520 The damage was done. And following on from that you 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:25.879 see the effect of the publicity in the Ralph Carr case. So, 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:29.600 Ralph Carr is the man who has been found guilty 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:31.960 of rape in a by a county court jury and 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:38.320 had a suppression order on that trial for victoria. After 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:42.520 his conviction, the judge has lifted that suppression order. And 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:45.639 apart from talking about the merits of that will come 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:48.840 to in a minute, but the volume of material that 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:51.639 has been in the herald Stone of the age since 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:54.320 that happened about him, and about things that had nothing 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:56.720 to do with the rape, including that he wears a 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:59.680 two pa yes and bearing the nickname the Rug. 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:00.280 Right. 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:03.200 But I mean, it just becomes and it just becomes vilifying, 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:06.000 doesn't it. Yeah, I mean, I mean this is the problem. 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:11.760 And newspapers and other forms of media often run these 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:14.080 stories on the basis of this is what we can 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:16.840 now tell you about this person. In other words, we 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:18.840 would have we would have if we could have, yeah, 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:21.840 which of course they never could have. Of course they couldn't. 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:23.760 They couldn't have. That would have been a contempt at 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:25.879 the court. That would have been something that would have 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:28.000 prejudiced his prospect of a fair trial. So none of 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:31.159 that material could have could have been led I noticed 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:33.920 in the age today. 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:38.879 So where what are we today? Thursday Thursday with psychiatrists 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:43.000 Some psychiatrists quoted saying that, you know, it's sort of 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:46.639 iffy science, if you like to, for a psychiatrists to 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:49.439 opine that a person who's charged with the criminal offense 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:51.400 would kill themselves if their name was mentioned. 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:54.119 I noticed that article too, mainly because you're quoted in 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:56.639 the article. I forgot that I am quoted in the article. 0:19:57.680 --> 0:19:59.080 You should you should read it's. 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:01.680 By Aaron Pearson, who's to get Aaron on one day 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:04.800 because she's actually got a great deal of interest in 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:06.840 suppression orders and she keeps her own data. 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:09.840 Yes, but what do you think of that, lex? 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:12.240 I mean, you know you would have granted suppression orders 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:14.720 and not granted them over the years. If a psychiatrist 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:18.360 came to court and said this person is a serious 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:21.240 risk of self harm or suicide, how would that. 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:25.679 Have I'd take a lot of convincing. I do believe 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:28.720