Speaker 1: We're twenty three. We have all the time and freedom
Speaker 1: in the world that we're not going to have when
Speaker 1: we want to have families and mortgages and partners who
Speaker 1: are potentially financially relying on us to contribute to our household.
Speaker 1: So we just thought, well, if we're not going to
Speaker 1: take the chance, now, when the hell are we going
Speaker 1: to do it?
Speaker 2: The phone was gone, finally making welcome back to the
Speaker 2: Rise and Conquered podcasts. This podcast is for women who
Speaker 2: want to take control of their lives, gain the confidence
Speaker 2: to live unapologetically, and who are ready to turn their
Speaker 2: biggest dreams into their reality. I'm your host, Georgie Stevenson,
Speaker 2: former lawyer turned entrepreneur and personal development junkie. Today I'm
Speaker 2: chatting with two women who I'm sure need no introduction,
Speaker 2: but if you aren't for me with Zara and Michelle.
Speaker 2: They are the hosts of the award winning pop culture
Speaker 2: podcast Shameless. Michelle and Zara a Melbourne based journalist who
Speaker 2: met when they were working as writers. In March twenty eighteen,
Speaker 2: after their podcast Pitch was declined by their employees at
Speaker 2: the time, Mitch and Zara went off on their own
Speaker 2: and started the podcast Shameless. Since then, the girls have
Speaker 2: become a leading voice for young women and have now
Speaker 2: released their very own book, The Space Between. The book
Speaker 2: is an amazing read all about the space in between
Speaker 2: your teen years and proper adulthood. I love the book
Speaker 2: because it brought up so many important conversations and opinions
Speaker 2: that really made me feel seen and heard as a
Speaker 2: twenty something female. In our chat today, we get down
Speaker 2: how the Shameless podcast unfolded and we get more into
Speaker 2: these important topics in the book. I absolutely adore the
Speaker 2: Shameless podcast and I adore that book, so I'm just
Speaker 2: so thrilled to bring you this episode. Let's get into it.
Speaker 2: Mish and Zara, Welcome to the show. Thanks to do usks.
Speaker 1: We're very excited to be here. It is day two
Speaker 1: of book promo, and when I saw that we had
Speaker 1: your podcast this morning, I was like, fuck, yes, that
Speaker 1: is so our vibe. We are so thrilled to be
Speaker 1: on this chat with you.
Speaker 3: What a lovely start to the day.
Speaker 2: Right back at you, like like, you guys know massive
Speaker 2: fans and I'm just so excited to dive into your
Speaker 2: new book and chat to you guys because I've been
Speaker 2: reading it the last couple of weeks to finish it
Speaker 2: a couple of nights ago, and yeah, I'm just so
Speaker 2: excited and it's it's it's so good to like chat
Speaker 2: to you guys. Because I was telling Zara and Mish
Speaker 2: before we jumped on, like, I feel like I know
Speaker 2: everything about you?
Speaker 3: What if people say that, and I'm like, do you?
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not gonna lie as well, if you've
Speaker 1: read the Space, you probably do know everything there is
Speaker 1: to know about us because we are so incredibly personal
Speaker 1: in this book, and like we've just kind of said
Speaker 1: everything there is to say, so I don't doubt that
Speaker 1: I probably know better than I know myself.
Speaker 2: I literally feel like us three best friends. So I'm
Speaker 2: just like friends like a wave. Guys were also on Zoom,
Speaker 2: so I'm like using my hands being a bit crazy.
Speaker 2: But welcome to the Rise and Conker Podcast. We're going
Speaker 2: to get into all the fun things today. But before
Speaker 2: we get into that, a question that I'm asking all
Speaker 2: my Season three guests is what is a daily non negotiable?
Speaker 2: And I know you guys are in lockdown in Victoria,
Speaker 2: so this may be you know, people may feel you
Speaker 2: and resonate with you. On this, But what is something
Speaker 2: you're doing every single day that helps you either step
Speaker 2: into your power or be your sort of like best self,
Speaker 2: And you're like, I need to do this otherwise it's
Speaker 2: a shit show.
Speaker 1: Who I'll go first? Okay? Can see you like deliberating
Speaker 1: behind your microphone. Mine would be going to the dog park,
Speaker 1: provided it's sunny, so that is a little bit negotiable.
Speaker 1: If it's raining, we'll take our puppy for a walk.
Speaker 1: We got a puppy in Lockdown one point zero and
Speaker 1: he's beautiful. His name is Benji. He's a little kvoodle
Speaker 1: and taking him to the dog park almost every day,
Speaker 1: probably six days a week, is just the best part
Speaker 1: of my date because it just gives my boyfriend Mitch
Speaker 1: and I an opportunity to get some fresh air and
Speaker 1: walk around and see our dog just play with all
Speaker 1: the other puppies at the park. Like it's such a
Speaker 1: wholesome and beautiful daily ritual that we now do, and
Speaker 1: I love going there actually at the end of a
Speaker 1: long day of work. We go there most days around
Speaker 1: five o'clock, and that just means that we get to
Speaker 1: have this really pure and wholesome experience at the end
Speaker 1: of every tough day.
Speaker 4: I feel like mine is not quite as pure or whole.
Speaker 4: The only thing I find myself dogging every day. I
Speaker 4: was thinking about this is I do have a ritual
Speaker 4: own It is just before the start of every working day,
Speaker 4: going to the cafe, like three hundred meters down the road,
Speaker 4: walking there, waiting for the coffee, walking back, And that
Speaker 4: is probably the only thing that I do day in
Speaker 4: day out that's exactly the same at the moment, but
Speaker 4: it kind of gives me that.
Speaker 3: Kicked out to the day. It's like literally with the coffee.
Speaker 4: But I think once I'm out of my apartment, get
Speaker 4: a quick bit of fresh air and then walk back,
Speaker 4: I'm ready to kind of.
Speaker 3: Get into the zone. I mean, we're all working from home.
Speaker 4: I think I kind of need to get out before
Speaker 4: I get back at my laptop and start.
Speaker 2: Yes, And I think, like both of you guys, it's
Speaker 2: definitely like a routine. You have something that it happens
Speaker 2: every single day. You know what's going to happen, and
Speaker 2: it's almost like a bit comforting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, I think so. I think, particularly in
Speaker 1: this kind of lockdown, I don't think anyone should underestimate
Speaker 1: how tricky. It is being in stage full lockdown for
Speaker 1: as long as Victorians and Melbournians in particular have been
Speaker 1: in it. It is such a different way of living.
Speaker 1: And the amount of time you spent indoors in your
Speaker 1: apartment is just so insane, like it's really needed to
Speaker 1: get out. Like it's very telling that Zara and I
Speaker 1: have both basically just said just to get fresh air.
Speaker 1: That is priority right now. And your priorities do shift
Speaker 1: so much when you're in a weird state of limbo
Speaker 1: like we are right now.
Speaker 2: Yes, one hundred percent, I could imagine, and I remember
Speaker 2: when we were on lockdown, just like getting out of
Speaker 2: the house and I was going for I've never been
Speaker 2: on so many walks in my life and just getting
Speaker 2: that fresh air and getting outside. One hundred percent. I
Speaker 2: feel you on that. So let's chat about your book
Speaker 2: The Space Between and I'm holding it up, guys, and
Speaker 2: I've got it beside me. So this book is all
Speaker 2: about the chaos, questions and magic in our twenties. So
Speaker 2: I've just finished reading it and I absolutely loved it.
Speaker 2: I honestly felt like really heard and really seen. It
Speaker 2: was the first time I felt like that in a
Speaker 2: piece of literature, if that makes sense, And so I
Speaker 2: want to get into the book before we do that.
Speaker 2: I am a very light control freak person, and so
Speaker 2: I have visions of how things are going to go
Speaker 2: on my mind, and if they don't go like that,
Speaker 2: I struggle a little bit. And so I was thinking
Speaker 2: about you guys, and I was like, holy crap, they're
Speaker 2: launching this book. I'm sure you had lots of kind
Speaker 2: of visualizations about, you know, having a book launch and
Speaker 2: having that money and it going a certain way, and
Speaker 2: because of Lockdown, it hasn't gone that way. So tell
Speaker 2: me about how the book launch has gone in lockdown.
Speaker 2: How are you guys feeling about it.
Speaker 4: It's so interesting because I think I only gave myself
Speaker 4: a moment maybe it was two days ago, where I thought,
Speaker 4: God it, it kind of.
Speaker 3: Would have been nice to do it how we always
Speaker 3: thought we were going to do it.
Speaker 4: And I haven't given myself many of those moments because
Speaker 4: kind of it is what it is, and I don't
Speaker 4: think dwelling is particularly healthy for anyone. But I did
Speaker 4: have a moment where I kind of thought there was
Speaker 4: an alternate reality where we were going to be going
Speaker 4: on a national tour and going to cities and doing shows,
Speaker 4: or we hadn't been before and we're going to be
Speaker 4: traveling a lot, and it was going to be much
Speaker 4: more of a thing and that would have been lovely.
Speaker 3: But that said and whan, it's been.
Speaker 4: Very busy and we haven't even left our homes, so
Speaker 4: I kind of think, well, maybe we wouldn't have been
Speaker 4: able to hack it anyway, Like maybe it's a beautiful
Speaker 4: way to do it, being able to kind of be
Speaker 4: in our homes and not travel so much because we
Speaker 4: travel usually so much for work. Anyway that we can
Speaker 4: kind of do all this work and still feel like
Speaker 4: things aren't completely crazy and out of our control.
Speaker 3: So I had that moment, but then I thought.
Speaker 4: I don't know how I would have gone in that
Speaker 4: alternate reality of what was meant to happen, Like maybe
Speaker 4: this is still best case scenario. I mean, it's sad
Speaker 4: that we can't meet our listeners, but beyond that, I
Speaker 4: know we'll get to these cities and I know we'll
Speaker 4: get there eventually.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's so sad we can't go see
Speaker 1: our listeners, like Zara just touched on, because doing live
Speaker 1: shows and doing events with our audience is one of
Speaker 1: our favorite parts of the job, so not being able
Speaker 1: to do that in twenty twenty, we were planning a
Speaker 1: national book launch, so we were going to be going
Speaker 1: to every major state and doing shows. We were going
Speaker 1: to be potentially going over to New Zealand as well
Speaker 1: and doing stuff over there in Auckland. So to kind
Speaker 1: of see all that fall apart was of course upsetting.
Speaker 1: But I think like this year, we've all had to
Speaker 1: let go of so much, and I think for Zara
Speaker 1: and I it's really important that when those losses have come,
Speaker 1: or when those disappointments have come, for us to just
Speaker 1: move on. I think if we wallowed about all the
Speaker 1: different things that we missed out on with this book,
Speaker 1: we'd just get really despondent and really sad, and we'd
Speaker 1: kind of get stuck in this mental rut. But it's
Speaker 1: really important for us, not just with the book, but
Speaker 1: with Shameless in general, because disappointments come right Like anyone
Speaker 1: who runs their own business or anyone who is self
Speaker 1: employed will know that you miss out on opportunities or
Speaker 1: things pop up that you would really love to do
Speaker 1: that just don't work out the way you hoped that
Speaker 1: they would, and I think I think anyone who's in
Speaker 1: this game knows that you kind of just need to
Speaker 1: pick yourself back up, put your chin up, and not
Speaker 1: think about it too much. So from the moment Zara
Speaker 1: and I realized that the book tour wouldn't be happening,
Speaker 1: we really haven't considered it so much.
Speaker 3: We haven't even had a conversation. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think we just accepted it. But like, well, Okay,
Speaker 1: there's plenty of things that a lot of people are
Speaker 1: missing out on this year. I mean, my sister just
Speaker 1: recently had to move her wedding. She's got a new
Speaker 1: baby that people can't come and visit and spend time
Speaker 1: with and bond with. Like my sister Evelyn is stuck
Speaker 1: in Bendigo doing a medicine degree and can't see anyone.
Speaker 1: That hasn't seen her boyfriend, hasn't seen her family for
Speaker 1: two months. So when I look at the people that
Speaker 1: I love the most in my life, I'm kind of
Speaker 1: realizing that, yes, it sucks we can't go through this amazing,
Speaker 1: glittery book to us, but also everyone's had to sacrifice things,
Speaker 1: and this is just the thing for us.
Speaker 2: I absolutely love that and I resonate with that so much, because,
Speaker 2: like you said, twenty two twenty has just been a
Speaker 2: year that you know, we couldn't we obviously couldn't have
Speaker 2: for scene, and so many people are dealing with losses
Speaker 2: and not being able to do something. And I know
Speaker 2: this is very like frivolous, but I had twenty twenty
Speaker 2: was like my year of adventures. I was like going
Speaker 2: to Europe and going to New Zealand, and I'm someone
Speaker 2: who doesn't like to travel, so like I had got
Speaker 2: my head around that, and then when it wasn't happening,
Speaker 2: it is like, of course it's devastating, but I love
Speaker 2: what you guys said, like you just got to peek
Speaker 2: yourself up and keep going and just go, Okay, it's
Speaker 2: not happening. This is this is not how a book
Speaker 2: launch you know, would be. But we're going to do
Speaker 2: the best we can. And I know you guys are
Speaker 2: doing that, so that's awesome.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean I always like to look at it in
Speaker 4: the sense of like, well, what can I actually control
Speaker 4: in this scenario, because there are a handful of things
Speaker 4: I can control and there are a handful of things
Speaker 4: I absolutely cannot. So I think we're fixating a lot
Speaker 4: on the things that we can control here, you know,
Speaker 4: what kinds of media we do from home and our
Speaker 4: attitudes through that time. And I think once you do that,
Speaker 4: you kind of let go of a lot of stuff
Speaker 4: and you're not carrying the burden of stuff you actually
Speaker 4: cannot control, because I just don't think it's that healthy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean we're the same as you. We
Speaker 1: were both supposed to be going to Europe on the
Speaker 1: exact same day, on the exact same flight with our boyfriends, so.
Speaker 3: Not deliberately act very accidentally.
Speaker 1: Accidentally because Zara and I just have the same brain
Speaker 1: now and clearly think to do the exact same thing
Speaker 1: at the exact same time. But yeah, I once the
Speaker 1: Europe trip was canceled, I actually don't remember like going
Speaker 1: through a grieving process for that or being upset, like,
Speaker 1: of course it's disappointing, But I think both of us
Speaker 1: and our partners are just the kind of people where
Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, well that's the reality. What can we
Speaker 1: do to fix it, or what can we do to
Speaker 1: I guess still make twenty twenty worthwhile and still pack
Speaker 1: it with whatever we can. So yeah, I mean it's
Speaker 1: a really tricky year and we're just going to try
Speaker 1: and get through it and hopefully things go back to
Speaker 1: normal sooner rather than later.
Speaker 2: Yes, And I love what you were saying before. I
Speaker 2: think Zara said in regards to you know, maybe this
Speaker 2: is best case scenario, if that makes sense, But it's
Speaker 2: an amazing way to look at it. All right, girls,
Speaker 2: let's switch gears and take it back to the start.
Speaker 2: So same. Shameless started as a side hustle, and I
Speaker 2: know you were both working full time in media companies
Speaker 2: and then you kind of came to this crossroads and
Speaker 2: you know, this side hustle project kind of got bigger
Speaker 2: than your jobs. And I would love for you to
Speaker 2: talk about kind of the moment when you were like,
Speaker 2: oh wait, this is real, we really have something here,
Speaker 2: and kind of what was going through your head when
Speaker 2: you decided to take Shameless to that next step go
Speaker 2: full time. What did that look like for you, guys?
Speaker 4: I mean, I wondered if that moment was the same,
Speaker 4: But I think in a few conversations that miss and
Speaker 4: I have had in the last couple of years, I
Speaker 4: think it might be. We started Shameless in March twenty eighteen,
Speaker 4: we were both working together. In the July of that year,
Speaker 4: Mish went freelance and I went to another job for
Speaker 4: six months while we tried to really or we tried
Speaker 4: to really make Shameless a thing on the side, and
Speaker 4: we were kind of building it up, but also kind
Speaker 4: of distracted by the need to do our jobs and
Speaker 4: earn money.
Speaker 3: And I think by the.
Speaker 4: Next February, so it probably took an entire year, when
Speaker 4: I was sitting at my normal nine to five job
Speaker 4: and we were putting out tickets for our very first
Speaker 4: live show, and I was like the world's worst employee
Speaker 4: in that job, because I spent half my screen was
Speaker 4: on Shameless stuff, and half my screen was on.
Speaker 3: Other stuff and on the work I should have been doing.
Speaker 4: And we were selling these tickets at about nine am,
Speaker 4: and I was sitting at my desk and we watched
Speaker 4: them go in about six minutes, and I was like,
Speaker 4: I'm still sitting at my nine to five job, and
Speaker 4: there are two hundred and fifty people who have snapped
Speaker 4: up these tickets faster than I've been able to refresh
Speaker 4: the page. And I think we were both like then
Speaker 4: we probably I need to get out of this job now,
Speaker 4: like we need to really commit to this full time
Speaker 4: and make it, you know, our baby, dare I say,
Speaker 4: I mean it had been, but our proper baby, because
Speaker 4: suddenly I think if people are willing to give you
Speaker 4: their time on an evening, I just I don't know.
Speaker 4: I feel like something about that means it's like a
Speaker 4: different kind of investment than just putting them or putting
Speaker 4: you in their ears every day or every week.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like kind of compared to you know, just a
Speaker 2: free podcast, and then you're like, oh no, wow, like
Speaker 2: we have a community here.
Speaker 1: I think that was a huge one for us, Like
Speaker 1: when we left our jobs. I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people when they hear our story, they think the podcast
Speaker 1: must have been making money or it must have been
Speaker 1: a source of income for us early on. It is
Speaker 1: not the case. When we left our jobs, I think
Speaker 1: the podcast was maybe almost three months old, probably not
Speaker 1: even that, so we only had a couple of thousand
Speaker 1: listeners to the show every week. But we just knew
Speaker 1: in our guts there was something about Shameless that just
Speaker 1: said to us, this is it. This is it. You
Speaker 1: have to pursue it, you have to give it a shot.
Speaker 1: I think it's also important to note that It wasn't
Speaker 1: like we were in the dream job. It wasn't like
Speaker 1: we were super happy with the work we were doing.
Speaker 1: We were looking at a job environment that we felt
Speaker 1: was a little bit toxic, and we also felt like
Speaker 1: we weren't secure. We were really worried about either losing
Speaker 1: our jobs and having our entire Melbourne office, which was
Speaker 1: a satellite office, being closed, or we were worried about
Speaker 1: the pressure to move up to Sydney, and we didn't
Speaker 1: want to move to Sydney. We love our families, we
Speaker 1: love our lives here in Melbourne. So as much as
Speaker 1: like looking back it's like, oh wow, what a decision
Speaker 1: like leaving a job to pursue this thing that's made
Speaker 1: no money and doesn't really have an audience and is
Speaker 1: really quite new and fresh, we weren't happy, and so
Speaker 1: we kind of thought, we're twenty three. We have all
Speaker 1: the time and freedom in the world that we're not
Speaker 1: going to have when we want to have families and
Speaker 1: mortgages and partners who were potentially financially relying on us
Speaker 1: to contribute to our household. So we just thought, well,
Speaker 1: if we're not going to take the chance now, when
Speaker 1: the hell are we going to do it, and I'm
Speaker 1: really glad we did. The podcast didn't even start making
Speaker 1: money until I think October of that year, so we
Speaker 1: launched in March. We left our jobs in June July.
Speaker 1: The podcast started providing a very very small amount of
Speaker 1: income in October November, and it wasn't until I guess
Speaker 1: we got to that live show stage that we thought, Okay, yes,
Speaker 1: Zara also needs to quit her job, but this needs
Speaker 1: to be something that we just funnel all of our
Speaker 1: energy into. If it fails, it fails, but we really
Speaker 1: don't think it will because there's something good here.
Speaker 2: I absolutely love that, and I resonate with that so much.
Speaker 2: I remember there being a point where I was working
Speaker 2: full time corporate Zarah. I laughed because I would like,
Speaker 2: you know, like have my like law documents up here,
Speaker 2: and then like over here, I'd be like editing a
Speaker 2: YouTube or putting it idle or something, and then quickly
Speaker 2: like exit out of it. But I resonate with that
Speaker 2: so much. And I love what you guys said in
Speaker 2: regards to you had such a passion and you weren't
Speaker 2: happy in your nine to five's and you're like if
Speaker 2: now when, And I think it's huge. And but in
Speaker 2: saying that, I think a lot of people, you know,
Speaker 2: pick the safe option. They almost are kind of like
Speaker 2: they're at that point and they just don't sort of
Speaker 2: go down that route because I feel like, you know,
Speaker 2: growing up, we're very much taught to pick the safe
Speaker 2: option and you shouldn't, you know, go outside of this box.
Speaker 2: And so i'd love to ask you, guys, if you
Speaker 2: know a listener, And this podcast is all about action,
Speaker 2: actionable tips, so I'll do it throughout the whole thing,
Speaker 2: but i'd love to ask you guys, you know, if
Speaker 2: there is a listener and they're currently got this side hustle,
Speaker 2: they're super passionate about it, and they are in a
Speaker 2: nine to five in a full time position, and they
Speaker 2: are kind of at this crossroads they're like, what do
Speaker 2: I do? Do I go fall into this? Because me
Speaker 2: very much, I was like, if I don't go fall
Speaker 2: into this, now, I think I'm going to kind of
Speaker 2: miss the boat or it's all going to just get
Speaker 2: too much. So if they're at that crossroads, what advice
Speaker 2: would you have to them in regards to following a
Speaker 2: passion compared to, you know, sticking to the safe nine
Speaker 2: to five.
Speaker 4: And the thing is it depends on a definition of safe, right,
Speaker 4: because I actually think that pursuing shameless was the safe option.
Speaker 4: I think it was the safe option because maybe not
Speaker 4: financially or but I felt like, this is the safe
Speaker 4: option because this is an idea that I don't see
Speaker 4: anywhere else, and if I don't do this now, somebody
Speaker 4: else will feel this hole. Like absolutely, somebody else will
Speaker 4: feel this whole. We've got to hurry up and get
Speaker 4: it done. So that's why it felt like the safe option,
Speaker 4: because I kind of didn't feel like I felt like
Speaker 4: almost our hands were forced because of timing. And I
Speaker 4: think if somebody's got something on the side where they
Speaker 4: feel like they do have an idea and they ease
Speaker 4: a gap in the market, and if they don't go
Speaker 4: now they know somebody else will feel that hole, then
Speaker 4: I think the safe option is cha chasing that dream
Speaker 4: and chasing that side hustle. Like I think it is
Speaker 4: the safe option because the last thing you want is
Speaker 4: to look back and be like, well, I had that
Speaker 4: idea and I was sitting on it and I didn't
Speaker 4: do anything about it because I was really scared or
Speaker 4: really worried about what might happen. I think that's when
Speaker 4: you kind of you don't want that those elements of
Speaker 4: regret I don't think.
Speaker 1: I think my advice as well would be take it
Speaker 1: seriously from the get go. You can love something and
Speaker 1: it can be your passion project, and you can still
Speaker 1: take it seriously and not feel ashamed about that. I
Speaker 1: think there's such a tendency with female entrepreneurs or female
Speaker 1: business founders to want to say that everything around them
Speaker 1: is luck, that they're lucky to be where they are,
Speaker 1: And I know that this is not an idea for me.
Speaker 1: This is a brilliant book written by Jamilla Risby, who
Speaker 1: is a mentor of ours, Not Just Lucky, which really
Speaker 1: explores how women in the workplace and women in business
Speaker 1: tend to attribute all of their success to luck. Zara
Speaker 1: and I have always wanted to make it super clear
Speaker 1: from the beginning of Shameless kind of reaching some level
Speaker 1: of success that yes, of course luck plays a role
Speaker 1: in what happened with Shameless, But we were so strategic
Speaker 1: with this podcast from the get go. When we say
Speaker 1: it was a side hustle and a hobby, it really
Speaker 1: truly was. But it was also a hobby that had
Speaker 1: spreadsheets and analytics and strategy behind it. Like from episode one,
Speaker 1: we had a Google sheets dock where we would enter
Speaker 1: how many Instagram followers have we got this week? What
Speaker 1: was our download number? What is the week on week
Speaker 1: growth there? We don't have any marketing budgets, so what
Speaker 1: can we do or what can we put out into
Speaker 1: the world that will hopefully get some eyeballs on what
Speaker 1: we're doing. And I think it's important for people to
Speaker 1: be transparent about that because it's not like we just
Speaker 1: threw something at the wall in the hope it would stick.
Speaker 1: We really wanted to approach this with our brains as
Speaker 1: well as our hearts, so I'm glad that it paid off,
Speaker 1: and I think Zia's right. I think for us it
Speaker 1: was the safer option because we had to look at
Speaker 1: it very pragmatically. As much as we adore the podcast
Speaker 1: and we would do it for free because it was
Speaker 1: so enjoyable and so much fun to sit down and
Speaker 1: chat every week as friends, we wanted it to be
Speaker 1: a business and an income, so we had to think
Speaker 1: about it with both sides of our brain.
Speaker 2: And I love what you said about you and being
Speaker 2: very sort of authentic and open about you took it
Speaker 2: seriously from the start and it was strategic and it's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's not luck. You put in so much effort and
Speaker 2: so much work. And I think that is super refreshing
Speaker 2: because we do tend to do that as females are like, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, you know, like I, it's too super lucky.
Speaker 2: It was the right timing and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2: And I think that's an important thing to highlight, is
Speaker 2: how much work and how much effort, And especially I
Speaker 2: don't know about you guys, but at the start of
Speaker 2: a side hustle, when it you know, isn't making money
Speaker 2: and it hasn't got much traction and stuff like that,
Speaker 2: it can be kind of this weird thing where you're like,
Speaker 2: you don't want to tell people how much effort you're
Speaker 2: putting into it.
Speaker 3: A farcy I thought at.
Speaker 4: The time, and I've said this scene that if if
Speaker 4: anyone had seen those spreadsheets from when we were having
Speaker 4: like five hundred listeners per episode, they probably would have
Speaker 4: laughed at us, like it would have looked so ott.
Speaker 4: But I think at the end of the day, you've
Speaker 4: got to be willing to do those things that almost
Speaker 4: do seem ott and almost do seem embarrassing because you
Speaker 4: have to start somewhere. You can't just bring that stuff
Speaker 4: in halfway through, because I don't think you can get
Speaker 4: the growth if you're not actively trying to pursue the growth.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's no shame in taking your dreams and
Speaker 1: your goals seriously. Like you to yourself to take yourself
Speaker 1: seriously and your passion seriously, and you shouldn't downplay that
Speaker 1: or feel ashamed for.
Speaker 2: That one hundred percent. And I think it's so important
Speaker 2: to touch on that. And I guess also a last
Speaker 2: thing to do with your at your podcast and the
Speaker 2: start of your podcast is run us through what was
Speaker 2: going through your head in regards to when you did
Speaker 2: start the podcast. And you know it wasn't almost like
Speaker 2: main string thing to do. It's very outside the box,
Speaker 2: so you're very much kind of paving your own way
Speaker 2: and doing your own thing. And I think personally I
Speaker 2: am someone who in the sort of when I was younger,
Speaker 2: I guess more like I liked sticking to what was
Speaker 2: known and what everyone else did, and you guys have
Speaker 2: very much kind of blown that concept up. Can you
Speaker 2: talk about starting a business in regards to it being
Speaker 2: so new and it being so not done, if that
Speaker 2: makes sense.
Speaker 1: I mean I personally really loved that element of it.
Speaker 1: I know that podcasting a few years ago was quite
Speaker 1: a niche, a very very different space in Australia compared
Speaker 1: to what it is now. But Zara and I were
Speaker 1: avid podcast fans. We came from a media company that
Speaker 1: had a podcast network, and we were seeing how popular
Speaker 1: podcasts were even then, and we were watching what was
Speaker 1: happening in the US and the UK, and we knew
Speaker 1: that podcast was a huge mainstream platform over there. I
Speaker 1: think podcasting really came into its own in the US
Speaker 1: and about twenty sixteen twenty seventeen, and so Zara and
Speaker 1: I just thought, we like this is We love it.
Speaker 1: We listen to podcasts all the time. They're perfect for
Speaker 1: when we're busy, which is always if we're cooking, or
Speaker 1: we're driving somewhere or where I don't know, doing errands
Speaker 1: around the house or at the supermarket. We can listen
Speaker 1: to a podcast, whereas we can't watch a video or
Speaker 1: read something. So we just thought, okay, well eventually it's
Speaker 1: going to come here. Like Australia tends to be a
Speaker 1: little bit behind with technology, trends.
Speaker 3: We know that we're any tread.
Speaker 1: To catch up any trend any basically, and the one
Speaker 1: call we saw we saw in the Australian podcasting space
Speaker 1: there was so much content for women over thirty, There
Speaker 1: was so much content for men across the board. There
Speaker 1: really wasn't any content for women in their twenties who
Speaker 1: care about stereotypically young woman things like we do. Like
Speaker 1: we love reality TV, we love talking about Instagram trends
Speaker 1: and influencer culture and celebrity news. So for us, we're like, well,
Speaker 1: there's a whole let's just fill that hole.
Speaker 4: And I think the other element to this is that
Speaker 4: we kind of felt like the content that was being
Speaker 4: aimed at women like all of us was being decided
Speaker 4: by boardrooms of people who didn't who weren't like us.
Speaker 4: So often they were men and middle aged men or
Speaker 4: middle aged women, and we were kind of like, well,
Speaker 4: what if we just created the content for people like us?
Speaker 4: And when you ask about, like what's it like to
Speaker 4: create a business in this kind of like a new sphere,
Speaker 4: it was really interesting because we kind of just looked
Speaker 4: at what was happening and we're kind of like, let's
Speaker 4: just do the opposite of that, like, let's deliberately do
Speaker 4: the opposite of that and see how it works. And
Speaker 4: it started to work. And then once it started to work,
Speaker 4: we found ourselves in conversations with bigger media companies and
Speaker 4: people in those boardrooms who were like asking us occasionally
Speaker 4: to come onto their network or kind of wanting to
Speaker 4: work alongside us. And every single time we entered those meetings,
Speaker 4: we kind of always left because they were still trying
Speaker 4: to apply their model to what we were doing, and
Speaker 4: we would always leave and be like, are we the
Speaker 4: crazy ones here? Because I don't think what they're doing
Speaker 4: is going to work. And we would always leave these
Speaker 4: meetings and be like, I still feel like it's our track.
Speaker 4: I want to I want to pursue, and I think
Speaker 4: that's what's worked for us the entire time is kind
Speaker 4: of like creating this new path, and it's been kind
Speaker 4: of beautiful because even people who have been in the
Speaker 4: media industry for decades are kind of all at ale
Speaker 4: level playing field now when it comes to podcasting because
Speaker 4: it is relatively new, and so you can kind of
Speaker 4: create your own adventure. So that's what we've been doing,
Speaker 4: creating our own adventure because we feel like traditional traditional
Speaker 4: forms of media just can't really you can't really apply
Speaker 4: that model to what the new podcasting space is doing.
Speaker 2: M I could not agree more. And can I just
Speaker 2: quickly say, guys, before your podcast and I've probably been
Speaker 2: listening for like just I found it just over a
Speaker 2: year ago. Wow, And before that, I am like, I'm
Speaker 2: a big self development person. That's what my whole podcast
Speaker 2: is about, so very much self development chunky. So any
Speaker 2: podcast I would listen to it wasn't kind of for fun.
Speaker 2: It was almost like I was constantly like learning. And
Speaker 2: how I found your podcast was I actually had some
Speaker 2: sort of health issues with just being exhausted and I've
Speaker 2: recently been diagnosed with like a thiraid condition and stuff.
Speaker 2: So my my natural path was like, you know, listen
Speaker 2: to podcasts and have that time, but don't be like,
Speaker 2: you know, constantly like learning and doing. And so someone
Speaker 2: recommended your podcast and I was like, oh, I'm you know,
Speaker 2: I'm not interested in news. I'm not interested in journalism,
Speaker 2: like I'm very much in this other realm. And then
Speaker 2: I was listening to your podcast and I was like,
Speaker 2: I've never heard this sort of form of its still
Speaker 2: being like news and relevant topics, but like articulated and
Speaker 2: spoken it in a way where it was so easy
Speaker 2: to absorb and like it felt like I was talking
Speaker 2: with a friend and like the ideas, if that makes sense,
Speaker 2: And so one hundred percent what you guys said in
Speaker 2: regards to feeling something that was not there, and especially
Speaker 2: like with pop culture, and like you said in regards
Speaker 2: it's not like it was a you know, a board
Speaker 2: sort of deciding these issues. You can tell that you
Speaker 2: guys do that together, and I think that's huge.
Speaker 1: Thank you, that's so sweet, and that I think that
Speaker 1: comment you made about feeling like you're tuning into a
Speaker 1: chat with friends, that is literally what Zara and I
Speaker 1: have built the podcast around. We always want our listeners
Speaker 1: to feel like they are part of the conversation and
Speaker 1: they're having like a cup of tea with their girlfriends,
Speaker 1: because that's important to us. Every week we go into
Speaker 1: the podcast, we think, what are our friends talking about
Speaker 1: right now, what's in our group chats? Where are the
Speaker 1: conversations happening, And we just try to emulate that. So
Speaker 1: like that's the biggest compliment in the world to us
Speaker 1: with Shameless.
Speaker 2: And I think but I think that's really important because
Speaker 2: I think that's what makes the huge difference of in
Speaker 2: regards to you know, talking to friends. It's that connection
Speaker 2: of you when you feel like the person gets you.
Speaker 2: And I think because you have the same you know, experiences,
Speaker 2: and you know, there's so many times where I'm sitting
Speaker 2: there and you're talking about of really deep issues and
Speaker 2: I'm like, yes, she gets me. I agree. But then
Speaker 2: we can talk about really and I just said we like,
Speaker 2: I'm sitting there with you guys, but that's how it
Speaker 2: feels like. But then you know, you guys can talk
Speaker 2: about really sort of fun, lighthearted things. I think it's
Speaker 2: such a good mix.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 3: I think also.
Speaker 5: I've said this a little bit, but I don't think
Speaker 5: that we would have able to create that kind of
Speaker 5: content or that kind of tone if we were under
Speaker 5: the banner of a bigger media company or you know,
Speaker 5: as part of those bigger structures, because we were able
Speaker 5: to create this by speaking about whatever the hell we
Speaker 5: wanted to speak about, Like no one was telling us
Speaker 5: not to say certain things.
Speaker 3: And I think that in itself was very free.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. And I think that's exactly what you
Speaker 2: get from the podcast, which is the bit the big
Speaker 2: difference or I'm stumbling on my words. Yeah, all right, guys,
Speaker 2: So let's switch gears because I really want to get
Speaker 2: into this book kind of picking up, but again, so
Speaker 2: the space between, can you before we get into the
Speaker 2: actual content of the book, can you tell us a
Speaker 2: little bit about the process of writing it, just because
Speaker 2: I just I couldn't imagine. It just seems like such
Speaker 2: a huge project and I know you guys have chatted
Speaker 2: about on your podcast it is, But just very quickly,
Speaker 2: can you tell us about what that experience has been like,
Speaker 2: because I'm sure it's sure.
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, this has been almost a year
Speaker 1: and a half in the making. We signed the contract
Speaker 1: to write this book with Penguin Random House in April
Speaker 1: of last year. We began writing it then and kind
Speaker 1: of thinking of ideas then. And we know that some
Speaker 1: other duos and some other co hosts and co authors
Speaker 1: have written books together in that they've literally contributed to
Speaker 1: every single essay together, and they've kind of pasted to
Speaker 1: laptop back and forth and written line by line. We
Speaker 1: didn't want to do that, Like, that's just not Zia
Speaker 1: and I I feel like, as much as we are
Speaker 1: similar we have quite distinct writing voices, and we write
Speaker 1: in quite different ways, so for us it was more important.
Speaker 1: We wanted this book first of all, to be fun
Speaker 1: and engaging, Like we wanted people to be able to
Speaker 1: go through the book and feel like they weren't being
Speaker 1: drained or bogged down by the content. And that's a
Speaker 1: tricky thing to do, given there's some really quite emotional, deep,
Speaker 1: sometimes dark content in this book, Like there are stories
Speaker 1: of trauma, there are stories of anxiety and enomy, triosis
Speaker 1: and painful sex, toxic workplaces, toxic friends. But there are
Speaker 1: a bunch of like really light and funny stuff intersperse throughout.
Speaker 1: So the way we wrote it was we kind of
Speaker 1: sat down, we thought, Okay, what are the major topics
Speaker 1: from our own lives that we want to write separately.
Speaker 1: We will write like longer form pieces three to five
Speaker 1: thousand words on those different topics. Zara brought up things
Speaker 1: from her life, like experiencing both of her parents having cancer.
Speaker 1: I brought up things from my life. We put them
Speaker 1: all in a Google doc and we're like, okay, how
Speaker 1: is this mapping out? And then we thought, what are
Speaker 1: the funny things that we want to do together, Like
Speaker 1: let's write lists, and let's write email chains, and let's
Speaker 1: write creative pieces and just random experiences of your twenties,
Speaker 1: and let's collaborate on them. And those pieces, while they
Speaker 1: they're not the hero pieces of the book, Like when
Speaker 1: I'm looking at it now, I know that the standout
Speaker 1: pieces of the essays that really delve into deep topics.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad we put those funny, silly, stupid listicals
Speaker 1: and funny things throughout the book because they make the
Speaker 1: whole experience kind of feel far more balanced and more
Speaker 1: indicative of what your twenties are really like.
Speaker 2: To me, Yes, I love that, and I can I
Speaker 2: just say that, I really. I think my favorite parts
Speaker 2: in the books were the email chains, really, and it's
Speaker 2: so interesting because I am way more of like I
Speaker 2: thought it would be, more of the essays, and they
Speaker 2: were really great and I did love the li but
Speaker 2: I don't know the email chains. I think it's because
Speaker 2: I've never read that format in a book. It was
Speaker 2: really engaged.
Speaker 4: Right, Well, we kind of wanted to emulate how we
Speaker 4: would have a conversation on the podcast. I guess because
Speaker 4: we were so many podcast listeners.
Speaker 3: We're going to come to this book, and we.
Speaker 4: Thought, well, let's actually hash out an issue that we're
Speaker 4: both kind of interested and invested in, but show our
Speaker 4: sides of the coin and kind of flesh it out
Speaker 4: together in a really long form way. And that really
Speaker 4: was the case of us opening the Google doc miss
Speaker 4: writing her answer, picking the message, being like, all right,
Speaker 4: I've emailed you said can you reply? And I'd reply
Speaker 4: and we would literally just go back and forth, and
Speaker 4: it would be interesting because we'd kind of get halfway
Speaker 4: through and be like, where the fuck is this.
Speaker 3: Chain going, Like there's no structure here, We're just writing
Speaker 3: to each other. But that was kind of the best part,
Speaker 3: and then you kind of refine it later. But I
Speaker 3: really loved doing those. I really really loved them.
Speaker 4: They were like the fastest pieces that came together because
Speaker 4: you're not stressing so much over the structure of every sentence.
Speaker 4: It's very much about the conversation and how it flows.
Speaker 1: And those are probably the least edited parts of the
Speaker 1: book as well. I think while we went through and
Speaker 1: we really edited and revised and redrafted the essays to
Speaker 1: get like to really hone in on what our point
Speaker 1: was or what the lesson was. The email chains I
Speaker 1: think we practically wrote them and we didn't really touch them.
Speaker 1: I don't even remember reading some of those essays that
Speaker 1: went into some of those email chains that went into
Speaker 1: the book. So it's interesting to hear that's your favorite
Speaker 1: part because I think a lot of people probably be
Speaker 1: the same. They're the most representative of what the podcast is.
Speaker 2: Like, I think that's what it is, and that it
Speaker 2: was just a bit fun, if that makes sense. Like
Speaker 2: it was good to get into the deep stuff, and
Speaker 2: like you said, like there was obviously issues there that
Speaker 2: were super dark and super important, but then sort of
Speaker 2: to break it up in this format where you guys
Speaker 2: were going back and forth and you could see both
Speaker 2: the sides, it was really cool. So I know the
Speaker 2: book is broken down into four parts, so we have love, Mind,
Speaker 2: and Body, ambition and voice. Personally, the last two were
Speaker 2: my favorite because I think I fascinated with a lot
Speaker 2: of things that you guys have gone through, as you know, female,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know if we want to call
Speaker 2: ourselves like entrepreneurs and having wanting to have opinions and
Speaker 2: wanting to have a voice, and I really want to
Speaker 2: get into something because personally, I grew up in a
Speaker 2: family of three older brothers and a very kind of
Speaker 2: you know, like normal household where my mom was a
Speaker 2: stay at home mom and my dad you know, went
Speaker 2: out and earned the money. And to be honest, for
Speaker 2: a long time, I felt like, because I was this
Speaker 2: girl who was super like dominant and I had opinions
Speaker 2: and I, you know, had this voice, I felt almost
Speaker 2: a bit ashamed a lot growing up because it didn't
Speaker 2: feel I was very much told that that wasn't you know,
Speaker 2: what a woman was supposed to be. And so I
Speaker 2: really resonated the voice section of the book. And I've
Speaker 2: got a chapter name here. I hope it's okay read
Speaker 2: it out, But it was called the space between finding
Speaker 2: your voice and feeling self conscious about having one. I
Speaker 2: think you wrote that, Sarah, Yeah, I did, and so
Speaker 2: I would love for you to expand on this. And
Speaker 2: I think a lot of you know, twenty somethink women
Speaker 2: are almost in this sort of space where it's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I do have opinions and I do have this voice,
Speaker 2: but I also don't know when I should assert them
Speaker 2: and be this dominant person. And I just resonated with
Speaker 2: it so much. I think when I was reading it,
Speaker 2: I was just like, Oh my god, this is it
Speaker 2: felt like I was reading my life. So I'd love
Speaker 2: if you could kind of expand on that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. I mean I think that was one
Speaker 3: of I think that was an I say.
Speaker 4: That came a bit later actually in the Peace, But
Speaker 4: I'm so glad I wrote it because I think it's
Speaker 4: probably gets the crux of how I like, fundamentally feel
Speaker 4: about having a voice and having a public voice, and
Speaker 4: it is that I like having a voice and I
Speaker 4: like having opinions that they are often wrapped in self
Speaker 4: consciousness even now, even today, like this is not me
Speaker 4: talking about four or five years ago, this is me
Speaker 4: talking about me right now. And I think there's a
Speaker 4: line in the first sort of part of it where
Speaker 4: I just say, like, why the fuck would anyone listen
Speaker 4: to what I have to say anyway?
Speaker 3: And it's true.
Speaker 4: I think that's that and niggling thought that I've had
Speaker 4: in the back of my mind that I grew up
Speaker 4: in a household where I was encouraged to be incredibly
Speaker 4: opinionated and to question everything, and probably I think my
Speaker 4: parents probably thought they like birthed monsters because they encouraged
Speaker 4: us to have these voices, and then suddenly we were
Speaker 4: like questioning them on their politics and their religion and
Speaker 4: making every conversation me and my sister like almost irrationally
Speaker 4: like feminist. And it wasn't until I kind of left
Speaker 4: the walls of my home, my family home, and kind
Speaker 4: of entered into the real world that I started to
Speaker 4: feel shame for that voice. Where I'd be sitting out
Speaker 4: for drinks and with friends and being really loud and opinionated,
Speaker 4: and then catching myself almost looking at myself from above
Speaker 4: being like shut up, like shut up, you're being so
Speaker 4: loud right now, or you're being so over the top
Speaker 4: right now. And I still feel myself doing that a
Speaker 4: little bit. I think a lot of women kind of
Speaker 4: have these two competing forces, this idea that you have
Speaker 4: a lot to say, and then this niggling thought in
Speaker 4: the back of your mind that you should sort of
Speaker 4: articulate those thoughts palatably and gently in order to be liked.
Speaker 3: And it's a really really.
Speaker 4: Hard thing to grapple with for young women, young women anywhere.
Speaker 4: But I think the more the more I speak and
Speaker 4: the more I do this job, the better I get
Speaker 4: at it.
Speaker 3: But it's still a process.
Speaker 1: I think it's a really interesting one because personally, I've
Speaker 1: never felt self conscious about my voice around women. I
Speaker 1: do still sometimes feel self conscious about using my voice
Speaker 1: and sharing my opinions when I'm around a group of men,
Speaker 1: and it's something that I still need to work through.
Speaker 1: And I think it just it's helpful for women to
Speaker 1: point to that and be like, why do I feel
Speaker 1: like that when I'm around guys? And I don't feel
Speaker 1: like that when I'm around my go my girlfriends, and
Speaker 1: I are all super opinionated, and I love that about us.
Speaker 1: I think it's a really healthy thing to have opinions
Speaker 1: on the world and to think critically about your life
Speaker 1: and critically about your place in society. But yet, when
Speaker 1: I'm in a group of guys, I do want to
Speaker 1: be liked, and I do want to be seen as
Speaker 1: this like feminine, easy friendly, easy going, doesn't take.
Speaker 3: Her color girl.
Speaker 1: And it's so funny because I'm sure so many of
Speaker 1: my guy friends would still be like, you're the most
Speaker 1: opinion advision.
Speaker 3: Is this the tone down version of you?
Speaker 1: Yeah? But I think we're trying to wrangle with and
Speaker 1: I think it's important that we raise young women. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's a piece in the voice section that I wrote
Speaker 1: to my future daughter. I'm not pregnant yet. I'm so
Speaker 1: terrified I've slip through the book yesterday. I'm like, I
Speaker 1: people could read this that I'm like announcing some pregnancy
Speaker 1: or something that I'm pregnant with the girl. But I
Speaker 1: wrote that because I'm like, I want to raise my
Speaker 1: daughter to feel like she can say whatever she wants
Speaker 1: in whatever context she wants, and that her voice is
Speaker 1: needed and necessary for her to live the life she
Speaker 1: wants to live. Because it's not just important to raise
Speaker 1: your opinion about the world in social scenarios, it's so
Speaker 1: important for women to do it in the workplace, Like
Speaker 1: if you're being mistreated, if you are upset about something
Speaker 1: going on at work, if you feel like something needs
Speaker 1: to change, you should be able to voice that. And
Speaker 1: I would really hope that the next generation of young
Speaker 1: girls will feel more emboldened to speak up when something's
Speaker 1: not right.
Speaker 2: It's so funny, miss, because my next question was to
Speaker 2: talk about that letter to your daughter. And I think
Speaker 2: I must have been like super hormonal when I read it,
Speaker 2: because I literally started tearing up. But I was like,
Speaker 2: it is just so true, and I think it was
Speaker 2: kind of even though I had such an amazing childhood
Speaker 2: and you know that sort of thing, I still very
Speaker 2: much was like I wish someone had told me this
Speaker 2: when I was younger, and so I absolutely love that,
Speaker 2: and I think, like you said, it is so important.
Speaker 2: There has been so many cumstances, especially in my career,
Speaker 2: like you said, Mish, in regards to you know, stuff
Speaker 2: happening and me going that is actually quite fucked and
Speaker 2: I should have, you know, spoken up, and I should
Speaker 2: have been that person. And now looking back, you know,
Speaker 2: like who I am now, Like I guess I will
Speaker 2: never know, but I think it's important to make sure
Speaker 2: we're telling women to Yes, you should have a voice
Speaker 2: and you should feel empowered, you know, to tell your
Speaker 2: opinions and to have those conversations. So I love that
Speaker 2: you touched on that.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: Another huge part of the book that I loved was
Speaker 2: in the mind and Body part. And I know that
Speaker 2: as Zara, you got into some very personal stuff with
Speaker 2: your endo, and I know, Mish you also got into
Speaker 2: very personal stuff with your anxiety, which, like I said
Speaker 2: priefily to you, guys, I think off air as I
Speaker 2: suffer with anxiety. So I really resonated with that part
Speaker 2: of the book. But my question to you guys is
Speaker 2: it is, you know, super personal and you're getting really
Speaker 2: into that sort of you know, the dark times and
Speaker 2: the not so pretty times. What was that like writing
Speaker 2: that And did you have any sort of moments where
Speaker 2: you're like, I don't know if I want to share this,
Speaker 2: or did you just go, yeah, we need to put
Speaker 2: this out there.
Speaker 4: A lot of people have wondered, like, what's it like
Speaker 4: depend down something so personal and wait for it to
Speaker 4: kind of be read by everybody else. And I think
Speaker 4: my honest answer is, well, I just didn't really think
Speaker 4: about it so that I was able to get it done,
Speaker 4: And that is my honest answer. But I also think
Speaker 4: that writing this stuff, writing about maybe my worry about
Speaker 4: fertility or worrying or kind of exploring how a condition
Speaker 4: called vaginismus really messed with my mind for so many years,
Speaker 4: felt like a really beautifully cathartic thing to be able
Speaker 4: to do. Like I genuinely felt like one of the
Speaker 4: luckiest people in the world to be able to kind
Speaker 4: of have time and space through my job to write
Speaker 4: out my thoughts and write out my feelings and actually
Speaker 4: make sense of them all because I don't think many
Speaker 4: people have that opportunity. It was incredibly therapeutic, and so
Speaker 4: I kind of just wrote this stuff. And I think
Speaker 4: Mish was quite similar, just as if it was the
Speaker 4: two of us reading it, like if it was just
Speaker 4: for my eyes only, because I think if you're writing
Speaker 4: this stuff thinking about every other person in the world
Speaker 4: reading it, you wouldn't get it out. And the first
Speaker 4: version of my Vaginisma's essay was completely different to what
Speaker 4: is in the book. I submitted it in the first
Speaker 4: draft of the book. We got the first draft back
Speaker 4: and I read it back and I was like, I
Speaker 4: hate this essay, like I hate it. And I remember
Speaker 4: sending it to Michelle and I was like, I don't
Speaker 4: know what's wrong with it, but I think everything's wrong
Speaker 4: with it. And she said to me, I think your
Speaker 4: issue here is that you're trying to tell this story
Speaker 4: without giving up much of yourself. Like you are trying
Speaker 4: to tell this story without telling much of the story
Speaker 4: because you're trying to protect yourself. But if you're going
Speaker 4: to tell the story, you kind of I have to
Speaker 4: tell the story properly. You have to tell people exactly
Speaker 4: how you felt. And so I just rewrote the whole
Speaker 4: thing and I finished it. Really, I wrote it really quickly,
Speaker 4: and I punched it out and I finished it, and
Speaker 4: I was like, this is much better because they actually
Speaker 4: gave parts of myself over to the story, and for
Speaker 4: that reason, it's a better story now.
Speaker 3: So I would I would.
Speaker 4: I wish I had a better answer for you when
Speaker 4: it comes to like, well, what's it like to share
Speaker 4: this personal stuff? But I think I think the survival
Speaker 4: mechanism in me means that I haven't really thought about
Speaker 4: other people reading it yet.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think the anxiety of thinking about people reading
Speaker 1: it really only hit me in probably the two or
Speaker 1: three weeks leading up to publication. I think when we're
Speaker 1: in the editing process and the only people who knew
Speaker 1: about the stuff in the book was myself, Zara, and
Speaker 1: our wonderful team of editors, it felt very different. And
Speaker 1: the lead up has been really hard mentally on me.
Speaker 1: I do have an anxiety disorder. I wasn't anxious about
Speaker 1: the anxiety essay in the book. There's an essay at
Speaker 1: the very very end of the book that I was
Speaker 1: very nervous to share because it was about an experience
Speaker 1: of when I was eighteen that I really hadn't told
Speaker 1: many people at all, and I had a full blown
Speaker 1: panic attack the night before launch. So Monday night, I
Speaker 1: had full blown panic attack, was uncontrollably sobbing, didn't know
Speaker 1: what to do with myself. Felt like I had made
Speaker 1: a huge mistake. And I don't think I have made
Speaker 1: a mistake at all. I want to be really clear
Speaker 1: with that. I'm really happy that essays in the book.
Speaker 1: But I think the waiting process is quite agonizing. When
Speaker 1: you've shared this much of yourself, and you've written some
Speaker 1: of this stuff over a year ago, and then you
Speaker 1: just have to sit and wait and hope that it's
Speaker 1: received in the way you want it to be received.
Speaker 1: That is fucking hard. And I think the night before launch,
Speaker 1: it was just this build up, like this complete buildup
Speaker 1: of emotion and worry and stress about this one particular essay.
Speaker 1: I just hope, like my one goal with this book
Speaker 1: is for people to think that it's a generous book.
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot to gain from people talking
Speaker 1: about the really difficult experience of their lives. And it
Speaker 1: was really important for Zara and I, even with her
Speaker 1: vaginismus essay or her fertility essay and the essay on
Speaker 1: her parents both having cancer. All my essays that were
Speaker 1: really traumatic and upsetting that we didn't give unnecessary gory detail,
Speaker 1: Like we did not want to approach these essays and
Speaker 1: be like, here's my trauma and he's like a blow
Speaker 1: by blow account of exactly how it unfurled and how
Speaker 1: it unraveled. We wanted to use those experiences as a
Speaker 1: platform to be helpful, and I'm just hoping that our
Speaker 1: words can kind of help our readers map out how
Speaker 1: they feel about their same trauma. So it's good that
Speaker 1: we had so much time because the last essay in
Speaker 1: the book I wrote it probably five different times. The
Speaker 1: first essay that went into the first draft is almost
Speaker 1: an entirely different essay to what went into the book.
Speaker 1: And I'm happy I had that process because I think
Speaker 1: mentally and spiritually I need to needed to get out
Speaker 1: those details. I needed to write them on paper and
Speaker 1: feel that cathartic release and feel like I was retracing
Speaker 1: my steps and like the scars that that kind of
Speaker 1: experience leaves you with. But then I had the time
Speaker 1: to be like, Okay, why am I writing this? I'm
Speaker 1: not writing this for myself. I'm not writing this to
Speaker 1: tell everyone every single thing that happened. I'm writing this
Speaker 1: so that someone who has gone through the same thing
Speaker 1: can feel comfort and feel seen and feel heard and
Speaker 1: feel a tiny little bit less alone. So the end,
Speaker 1: the final essay that goes in is like very very
Speaker 1: much about my feelings and my thoughts and the journey
Speaker 1: after that experience, not the experience of itself. And that
Speaker 1: was super important to boat Zara and I that we
Speaker 1: could kind of find some kind of comfort and hope
Speaker 1: and lesson to come out of each experience.
Speaker 2: And I think you can, like I definitely when you
Speaker 2: were talking about like this not being heavy experience, you
Speaker 2: can definitely feel like it doesn't feel like you are
Speaker 2: just like letting out your trauma. It definitely does feel
Speaker 2: comforting and helpful. And that's even like I there was
Speaker 2: a couple of sort of important issues that you talk
Speaker 2: about in the book that I personally haven't been for
Speaker 2: you been through, sorry, But I have friends you know,
Speaker 2: who have end doing different stuff like that, and it
Speaker 2: was super insightful for me to be like, oh, wow,
Speaker 2: this you know, this is how they are feeling, and
Speaker 2: so I completely agree with that, and I think also
Speaker 2: that's what makes you two so special is because you
Speaker 2: are vulnerable, but it doesn't feel, you know, like heavy
Speaker 2: on me. If that makes sense. I think that does.
Speaker 2: So I think that's awesome. So last question about the book,
Speaker 2: and this is another favorite part, and it's when you
Speaker 2: guys spoke about I'll read the chapter Dame again. So
Speaker 2: it's the rough and tumble on rejection. So you guys
Speaker 2: talked about when you pitched your podcast to a very
Speaker 2: well known media company and they considered it and you
Speaker 2: almost thought it was going to happen, but then it
Speaker 2: got pulled, and you really talk about this concept of rejection.
Speaker 2: But you know, in hindsight, this is what started this
Speaker 2: huge journey and inventor of what Shameless is. Can you
Speaker 2: guys chat to us about rejection because I think twenty
Speaker 2: twenty for most of us has been a year with
Speaker 2: a lot of rejection at a lot of loss, where
Speaker 2: things have not gone the way we thought they would go.
Speaker 2: So I thought this was a really cool sort of
Speaker 2: section to end on. So you know, if someone has
Speaker 2: kind of had something and they've got rejection, can you
Speaker 2: chat them about what that was like for you guys?
Speaker 2: Give us a bit of a pep talk, you can
Speaker 2: do that.
Speaker 3: I mean.
Speaker 4: The thing is, when we had the idea for Shameless
Speaker 4: mich And I thought it was a good idea, like
Speaker 4: I said to you at the start, because we were like,
Speaker 4: here's this gap in the market that if we don't feel,
Speaker 4: somebody else will. So we did pitch it to the
Speaker 4: media company we were working out at the time. They
Speaker 4: said yes, and then they said no. And then after
Speaker 4: that we said, okay, well can we do this ourselves,
Speaker 4: like are we able to kind of launch this independently
Speaker 4: on our weekends because we think it's a good idea,
Speaker 4: And they said yes, and then we kind of kept
Speaker 4: creating the podcast. But because we were completely self taught,
Speaker 4: like we had no idea how podcasting functioned. We did
Speaker 4: not know what equipment to use, We didn't know how
Speaker 4: do we even host properly? We didn't we just didn't
Speaker 4: know the fundamentals. We kept pitching it to podcast networks too,
Speaker 4: Like we kept going to the big networks and being like,
Speaker 4: here's our idea, here's what we've got already, do you
Speaker 4: want it? And nobody took it on. And so after
Speaker 4: about a year of us making it we realized that
Speaker 4: that was the biggest blessing of all that nobody took
Speaker 4: it on, Like nobody saw this is a good idea.
Speaker 3: Nobody did because nobody took it on board their network.
Speaker 4: And I think and that's been the luckiest thing for
Speaker 4: our business because it means that now we work for ourselves.
Speaker 4: We have nobody else telling us what to do, what
Speaker 4: we should say. And I think, if there's someone out
Speaker 4: there who has an idea that feels like nobody's taking
Speaker 4: it on, but you still think that's a good idea,
Speaker 4: and you still think there's a gap in the market,
Speaker 4: pursue it. Just because other people don't see your idea
Speaker 4: doesn't mean it's wrong. No albready saw our idea and
Speaker 4: that was why we were able to create it in
Speaker 4: the way that we did, and it was the best
Speaker 4: thing that happened for either of us.
Speaker 3: So we get pictures.
Speaker 4: All the time, all day, every day, and we don't
Speaker 4: take any external pictures outside of the company. But I imagine
Speaker 4: that there are women who email us who see that
Speaker 4: we don't reply and assume that means we think that
Speaker 4: their idea is bad. But the reality is we will
Speaker 4: probably pass on a million good ideas because we don't
Speaker 4: have the time to think about it. So I would
Speaker 4: just say, if you think you're sitting on something good,
Speaker 4: keep pursuing it.
Speaker 1: I think that's the important thing to realize. There is
Speaker 1: no one person, or one group of people, or one
Speaker 1: boardroom that knows what's going to work and what doesn't.
Speaker 1: Everyone is guessing. Yes. Of course, experience can come into it,
Speaker 1: and some people will have a better hunch as to
Speaker 1: what's a good idea and what's a bad one than
Speaker 1: other people. However, nobody, not the best, most brilliant entrepreneur
Speaker 1: or investor in the world, knows every single time what
Speaker 1: idea is going to work. And I think it's important
Speaker 1: for women, particularly young women, who generally do not take
Speaker 1: the same risks that young men do in business and
Speaker 1: in career, know that know that your opinion on your
Speaker 1: idea is worth just as much as anyone else is.
Speaker 1: If you think it's a good idea, please please, please
Speaker 1: at least give yourself the opportunity to pursue it. Who's
Speaker 1: to say that that boardroom of people who aren't your age,
Speaker 1: aren't your demographic, are not your target customer. Know more
Speaker 1: about your idea and whether or not all work than
Speaker 1: you do. I think it's important to look at your circle,
Speaker 1: and we did look at our circle in those early
Speaker 1: days of our sisters, who are basically the shameless brain trust.
Speaker 1: That's how much we trust them with every single thing
Speaker 1: we do. We also our best friends, and we thought,
Speaker 1: would they like our idea? Fuck the people in the
Speaker 1: boardroom who said no to us, they're all in their
Speaker 1: forties and they're not our target demo. Our target demo
Speaker 1: are our friends and our sisters, and the people like us.
Speaker 1: Would they listen? Would they like what we're doing, or
Speaker 1: would they buy our product or whatever your business is.
Speaker 1: If your answer is yes, then do not listen to
Speaker 1: people who are outside your demo trying to tell you
Speaker 1: how to do what you want to do. Like, just
Speaker 1: give yourself a shot, because it's the best thing we
Speaker 1: ever did. And even if it failed, the amount of things,
Speaker 1: and even if it does fail one day, who's to
Speaker 1: say that next year everyone leaves our podcast and doesn't
Speaker 1: listen to it anymore because Zara and I become shit
Speaker 1: at our jobs or we're not on the.
Speaker 3: And what people are complete narcissists.
Speaker 1: Even if that happens, it is worth it. The amount
Speaker 1: you learn and the amount you grow from pursuing your
Speaker 1: goal and pursuing your dream is so insane, Like we
Speaker 1: have grown so much as people and as media professionals,
Speaker 1: so there's no loss here, Like, even if it doesn't work,
Speaker 1: you're to gain so much from it individually. So just
Speaker 1: give yourself a shot, guys.
Speaker 2: I was just like nodding my that a whole time.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for something summing that up, I
Speaker 2: could not agree more. And you know, what is that quote?
Speaker 2: It's like, rejection is just redirection. Yes, I love that
Speaker 2: I heard it.
Speaker 3: That's awesome.
Speaker 2: Oh really yeah, And I think that is that is
Speaker 2: so true. And I think also that's such a great
Speaker 2: reminder because just imagine if you guys got that rejection
Speaker 2: and then that was it and you just left it
Speaker 2: and you didn't pursue this, like you know, Shameless wouldn't
Speaker 2: be here. And I think that's so important for the listeners,
Speaker 2: you know, to realize that if you've got something and
Speaker 2: it feels right to you and you have that motivation
Speaker 2: and that passion, keep going for sure. Amazing. So God,
Speaker 2: a podcast, a book, what is next for shameless?
Speaker 4: Asleep?
Speaker 1: Asleep? And you know, what like out of the holiday
Speaker 1: and be like, oh my god, We've got all these
Speaker 1: projects that we're lining up and we're so excited. And
Speaker 1: we do have some like we're doing season three of
Speaker 1: Love et cetera, our podcast with Bumble, which is really
Speaker 1: exciting that'll come out later this year. But apart from that,
Speaker 1: you know what we want a holiday. We want to
Speaker 1: be able to travel when that's allowed, travel with our
Speaker 1: partners and experience things and take a breath. Because as
Speaker 1: much as we adore work and as much as we
Speaker 1: love what we do and it brings us so much fulfillment,
Speaker 1: we are hugely socially oriented and we adore our partners,
Speaker 1: and we adore our families and our friends, and we
Speaker 1: want to spend time with them. We really miss them
Speaker 1: right now in lockdown, So that is the utmost priority
Speaker 1: for both of us.
Speaker 3: And I wonder if you're the same as our storagey.
Speaker 4: But next year, I don't think we have anything on
Speaker 4: right like, in terms of work, we have no project
Speaker 4: locked in and that excites me to no end because
Speaker 4: what that means is that it's a complete life canvas
Speaker 4: that we can kind of make whatever we want when
Speaker 4: we feel like it, when we're in this headspace.
Speaker 3: We've got ideas, We've got a blank canvas to work with.
Speaker 4: So I'm so excited about that that we can kind
Speaker 4: of use the next few months to kind of lie
Speaker 4: low and then over summer come up with some ideas
Speaker 4: and then just smash them out next year.
Speaker 3: Like that excites me too.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. I am in the exact same b
Speaker 2: I because we were meant to go to Europe this year.
Speaker 2: I didn't take any leg Christmas holidays or anything at
Speaker 2: the end of last year, so I feel exhausted. I
Speaker 2: feel exhausted, and I've just yeah, I had one thing
Speaker 2: after the other. So I am the exact same boat,
Speaker 2: and I absolutely love that. It's honestly a kind of
Speaker 2: like a breath of fresh air. Makes me feel less
Speaker 2: guilty for wanting to do the exact same I'm glad. Well,
Speaker 2: thank you so much, miss and Zara. You guys have
Speaker 2: just been bloody amazing and I cannot thank you enough
Speaker 2: for your time for coming on the show. Before we leave, you, guys,
Speaker 2: can you let the audience know where they can find
Speaker 2: the book holding our hands and where to find you guys.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, first of all, I know that a lot
Speaker 1: of people listening to podcasts will have a preference for audiobooks.
Speaker 1: There is an audiobook for the space between. It was
Speaker 1: really important for us to do that, So I've just
Speaker 1: literally knocked out my headphones as I say that. So
Speaker 1: you can buy our audiobook on Audible or Google Books
Speaker 1: or whatever it's called. Wherever you get your audiobooks, it'll be.
Speaker 1: As for the paperback version, you can get it on
Speaker 1: book topio if you want to have it delivered if
Speaker 1: you're in lockdown, or you can go to any good
Speaker 1: bookstore like Dimmis. You can go to Big W Target, Kmart.
Speaker 2: It is there amazing. And also where do they find
Speaker 2: Shameless Like, I'm sure.
Speaker 4: Shame find us on Instagram. I think Instagram is the best.
Speaker 4: But you can find us on Instagram at Shameless Podcast.
Speaker 4: And we also have a book club community on Facebook
Speaker 4: which is Shameless Podcast book Club, which we love.
Speaker 3: We just talked about books set.
Speaker 2: I love it and I so I had already got
Speaker 2: the Audible version like in pre launch, so I used
Speaker 2: my credit and got that and then I got the
Speaker 2: physical copy. So I'm excited to listen to audio. So
Speaker 2: is it just you guys?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like one big long podcast.
Speaker 2: Can't wait. Well, thank you so much.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Georgie.
Speaker 1: You're huge fans of yours and you're doing an awesome job.
Speaker 1: And it's so good to see other women in this
Speaker 1: industry kind of take the microphone for themselves and share
Speaker 1: their thoughts and take up space. I think more women
Speaker 1: need to take up space in the media. And we're
Speaker 1: such big fans of yours and it's so great to
Speaker 1: see all the success you're achieving. So well done.
Speaker 2: I really appreciate that. And yes, let's take up some
Speaker 2: more space. And that is it for today's episode. Thank
Speaker 2: you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this chat.
Speaker 2: I absolutely loved interviewing Mish and Zara from Shameless and guys,
Speaker 2: if you did love this episode, if you love the podcast,
Speaker 2: please give us a review or make sure you're subscribed.
Speaker 2: It really helps out the Rise and Conquer podcast. And
Speaker 2: if you do love the podcast and you love the
Speaker 2: conversations that we have, I think that you would love
Speaker 2: our Facebook group, So come and join us. It's just
Speaker 2: Rise and Conquer podcast community and yeah, it's a private
Speaker 2: group where we chat all things we do on the podcast,
Speaker 2: but thank you so much for listening. I'll chat to
Speaker 2: you in our next step