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Speaker 1: We're twenty three. We have all the time and freedom

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Speaker 1: in the world that we're not going to have when

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Speaker 1: we want to have families and mortgages and partners who

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Speaker 1: are potentially financially relying on us to contribute to our household.

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Speaker 1: So we just thought, well, if we're not going to

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Speaker 1: take the chance, now, when the hell are we going

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Speaker 1: to do it?

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Speaker 2: The phone was gone, finally making welcome back to the

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Speaker 2: Rise and Conquered podcasts. This podcast is for women who

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Speaker 2: want to take control of their lives, gain the confidence

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Speaker 2: to live unapologetically, and who are ready to turn their

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Speaker 2: biggest dreams into their reality. I'm your host, Georgie Stevenson,

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Speaker 2: former lawyer turned entrepreneur and personal development junkie. Today I'm

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Speaker 2: chatting with two women who I'm sure need no introduction,

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Speaker 2: but if you aren't for me with Zara and Michelle.

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Speaker 2: They are the hosts of the award winning pop culture

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Speaker 2: podcast Shameless. Michelle and Zara a Melbourne based journalist who

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Speaker 2: met when they were working as writers. In March twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 2: after their podcast Pitch was declined by their employees at

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Speaker 2: the time, Mitch and Zara went off on their own

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Speaker 2: and started the podcast Shameless. Since then, the girls have

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Speaker 2: become a leading voice for young women and have now

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Speaker 2: released their very own book, The Space Between. The book

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Speaker 2: is an amazing read all about the space in between

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Speaker 2: your teen years and proper adulthood. I love the book

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Speaker 2: because it brought up so many important conversations and opinions

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Speaker 2: that really made me feel seen and heard as a

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Speaker 2: twenty something female. In our chat today, we get down

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Speaker 2: how the Shameless podcast unfolded and we get more into

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Speaker 2: these important topics in the book. I absolutely adore the

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Speaker 2: Shameless podcast and I adore that book, so I'm just

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Speaker 2: so thrilled to bring you this episode. Let's get into it.

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Speaker 2: Mish and Zara, Welcome to the show. Thanks to do usks.

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Speaker 1: We're very excited to be here. It is day two

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Speaker 1: of book promo, and when I saw that we had

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Speaker 1: your podcast this morning, I was like, fuck, yes, that

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Speaker 1: is so our vibe. We are so thrilled to be

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Speaker 1: on this chat with you.

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Speaker 3: What a lovely start to the day.

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Speaker 2: Right back at you, like like, you guys know massive

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Speaker 2: fans and I'm just so excited to dive into your

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Speaker 2: new book and chat to you guys because I've been

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Speaker 2: reading it the last couple of weeks to finish it

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Speaker 2: a couple of nights ago, and yeah, I'm just so

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Speaker 2: excited and it's it's it's so good to like chat

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Speaker 2: to you guys. Because I was telling Zara and Mish

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Speaker 2: before we jumped on, like, I feel like I know

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Speaker 2: everything about you?

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Speaker 3: What if people say that, and I'm like, do you?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not gonna lie as well, if you've

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Speaker 1: read the Space, you probably do know everything there is

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Speaker 1: to know about us because we are so incredibly personal

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Speaker 1: in this book, and like we've just kind of said

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Speaker 1: everything there is to say, so I don't doubt that

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Speaker 1: I probably know better than I know myself.

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Speaker 2: I literally feel like us three best friends. So I'm

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Speaker 2: just like friends like a wave. Guys were also on Zoom,

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Speaker 2: so I'm like using my hands being a bit crazy.

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Speaker 2: But welcome to the Rise and Conker Podcast. We're going

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Speaker 2: to get into all the fun things today. But before

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Speaker 2: we get into that, a question that I'm asking all

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Speaker 2: my Season three guests is what is a daily non negotiable?

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Speaker 2: And I know you guys are in lockdown in Victoria,

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Speaker 2: so this may be you know, people may feel you

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Speaker 2: and resonate with you. On this, But what is something

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Speaker 2: you're doing every single day that helps you either step

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Speaker 2: into your power or be your sort of like best self,

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Speaker 2: And you're like, I need to do this otherwise it's

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Speaker 2: a shit show.

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Speaker 1: Who I'll go first? Okay? Can see you like deliberating

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Speaker 1: behind your microphone. Mine would be going to the dog park,

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Speaker 1: provided it's sunny, so that is a little bit negotiable.

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Speaker 1: If it's raining, we'll take our puppy for a walk.

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Speaker 1: We got a puppy in Lockdown one point zero and

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Speaker 1: he's beautiful. His name is Benji. He's a little kvoodle

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Speaker 1: and taking him to the dog park almost every day,

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Speaker 1: probably six days a week, is just the best part

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Speaker 1: of my date because it just gives my boyfriend Mitch

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Speaker 1: and I an opportunity to get some fresh air and

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Speaker 1: walk around and see our dog just play with all

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Speaker 1: the other puppies at the park. Like it's such a

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Speaker 1: wholesome and beautiful daily ritual that we now do, and

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Speaker 1: I love going there actually at the end of a

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Speaker 1: long day of work. We go there most days around

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Speaker 1: five o'clock, and that just means that we get to

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Speaker 1: have this really pure and wholesome experience at the end

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Speaker 1: of every tough day.

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Speaker 4: I feel like mine is not quite as pure or whole.

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Speaker 4: The only thing I find myself dogging every day. I

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Speaker 4: was thinking about this is I do have a ritual

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Speaker 4: own It is just before the start of every working day,

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Speaker 4: going to the cafe, like three hundred meters down the road,

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Speaker 4: walking there, waiting for the coffee, walking back, And that

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Speaker 4: is probably the only thing that I do day in

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Speaker 4: day out that's exactly the same at the moment, but

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Speaker 4: it kind of gives me that.

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Speaker 3: Kicked out to the day. It's like literally with the coffee.

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Speaker 4: But I think once I'm out of my apartment, get

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Speaker 4: a quick bit of fresh air and then walk back,

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Speaker 4: I'm ready to kind of.

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Speaker 3: Get into the zone. I mean, we're all working from home.

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Speaker 4: I think I kind of need to get out before

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Speaker 4: I get back at my laptop and start.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And I think, like both of you guys, it's

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Speaker 2: definitely like a routine. You have something that it happens

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Speaker 2: every single day. You know what's going to happen, and

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Speaker 2: it's almost like a bit comforting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, I think so. I think, particularly in

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Speaker 1: this kind of lockdown, I don't think anyone should underestimate

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Speaker 1: how tricky. It is being in stage full lockdown for

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Speaker 1: as long as Victorians and Melbournians in particular have been

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Speaker 1: in it. It is such a different way of living.

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Speaker 1: And the amount of time you spent indoors in your

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Speaker 1: apartment is just so insane, like it's really needed to

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Speaker 1: get out. Like it's very telling that Zara and I

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Speaker 1: have both basically just said just to get fresh air.

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Speaker 1: That is priority right now. And your priorities do shift

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Speaker 1: so much when you're in a weird state of limbo

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Speaker 1: like we are right now.

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Speaker 2: Yes, one hundred percent, I could imagine, and I remember

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Speaker 2: when we were on lockdown, just like getting out of

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Speaker 2: the house and I was going for I've never been

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Speaker 2: on so many walks in my life and just getting

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Speaker 2: that fresh air and getting outside. One hundred percent. I

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Speaker 2: feel you on that. So let's chat about your book

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Speaker 2: The Space Between and I'm holding it up, guys, and

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Speaker 2: I've got it beside me. So this book is all

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Speaker 2: about the chaos, questions and magic in our twenties. So

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Speaker 2: I've just finished reading it and I absolutely loved it.

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Speaker 2: I honestly felt like really heard and really seen. It

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Speaker 2: was the first time I felt like that in a

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Speaker 2: piece of literature, if that makes sense, And so I

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Speaker 2: want to get into the book before we do that.

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Speaker 2: I am a very light control freak person, and so

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Speaker 2: I have visions of how things are going to go

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Speaker 2: on my mind, and if they don't go like that,

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Speaker 2: I struggle a little bit. And so I was thinking

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Speaker 2: about you guys, and I was like, holy crap, they're

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Speaker 2: launching this book. I'm sure you had lots of kind

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Speaker 2: of visualizations about, you know, having a book launch and

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Speaker 2: having that money and it going a certain way, and

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Speaker 2: because of Lockdown, it hasn't gone that way. So tell

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Speaker 2: me about how the book launch has gone in lockdown.

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Speaker 2: How are you guys feeling about it.

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Speaker 4: It's so interesting because I think I only gave myself

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Speaker 4: a moment maybe it was two days ago, where I thought,

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Speaker 4: God it, it kind of.

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Speaker 3: Would have been nice to do it how we always

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Speaker 3: thought we were going to do it.

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Speaker 4: And I haven't given myself many of those moments because

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Speaker 4: kind of it is what it is, and I don't

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Speaker 4: think dwelling is particularly healthy for anyone. But I did

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Speaker 4: have a moment where I kind of thought there was

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Speaker 4: an alternate reality where we were going to be going

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Speaker 4: on a national tour and going to cities and doing shows,

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Speaker 4: or we hadn't been before and we're going to be

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Speaker 4: traveling a lot, and it was going to be much

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Speaker 4: more of a thing and that would have been lovely.

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Speaker 3: But that said and whan, it's been.

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Speaker 4: Very busy and we haven't even left our homes, so

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Speaker 4: I kind of think, well, maybe we wouldn't have been

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Speaker 4: able to hack it anyway, Like maybe it's a beautiful

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Speaker 4: way to do it, being able to kind of be

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Speaker 4: in our homes and not travel so much because we

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Speaker 4: travel usually so much for work. Anyway that we can

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Speaker 4: kind of do all this work and still feel like

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Speaker 4: things aren't completely crazy and out of our control.

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Speaker 3: So I had that moment, but then I thought.

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Speaker 4: I don't know how I would have gone in that

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Speaker 4: alternate reality of what was meant to happen, Like maybe

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Speaker 4: this is still best case scenario. I mean, it's sad

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Speaker 4: that we can't meet our listeners, but beyond that, I

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Speaker 4: know we'll get to these cities and I know we'll

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Speaker 4: get there eventually.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's so sad we can't go see

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Speaker 1: our listeners, like Zara just touched on, because doing live

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Speaker 1: shows and doing events with our audience is one of

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Speaker 1: our favorite parts of the job, so not being able

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Speaker 1: to do that in twenty twenty, we were planning a

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Speaker 1: national book launch, so we were going to be going

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Speaker 1: to every major state and doing shows. We were going

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Speaker 1: to be potentially going over to New Zealand as well

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Speaker 1: and doing stuff over there in Auckland. So to kind

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Speaker 1: of see all that fall apart was of course upsetting.

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Speaker 1: But I think like this year, we've all had to

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Speaker 1: let go of so much, and I think for Zara

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Speaker 1: and I it's really important that when those losses have come,

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Speaker 1: or when those disappointments have come, for us to just

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Speaker 1: move on. I think if we wallowed about all the

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Speaker 1: different things that we missed out on with this book,

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Speaker 1: we'd just get really despondent and really sad, and we'd

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Speaker 1: kind of get stuck in this mental rut. But it's

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Speaker 1: really important for us, not just with the book, but

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Speaker 1: with Shameless in general, because disappointments come right Like anyone

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Speaker 1: who runs their own business or anyone who is self

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Speaker 1: employed will know that you miss out on opportunities or

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Speaker 1: things pop up that you would really love to do

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Speaker 1: that just don't work out the way you hoped that

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Speaker 1: they would, and I think I think anyone who's in

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Speaker 1: this game knows that you kind of just need to

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Speaker 1: pick yourself back up, put your chin up, and not

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Speaker 1: think about it too much. So from the moment Zara

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Speaker 1: and I realized that the book tour wouldn't be happening,

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Speaker 1: we really haven't considered it so much.

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Speaker 3: We haven't even had a conversation. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I think we just accepted it. But like, well, Okay,

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Speaker 1: there's plenty of things that a lot of people are

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Speaker 1: missing out on this year. I mean, my sister just

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Speaker 1: recently had to move her wedding. She's got a new

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Speaker 1: baby that people can't come and visit and spend time

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Speaker 1: with and bond with. Like my sister Evelyn is stuck

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Speaker 1: in Bendigo doing a medicine degree and can't see anyone.

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Speaker 1: That hasn't seen her boyfriend, hasn't seen her family for

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Speaker 1: two months. So when I look at the people that

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Speaker 1: I love the most in my life, I'm kind of

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Speaker 1: realizing that, yes, it sucks we can't go through this amazing,

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Speaker 1: glittery book to us, but also everyone's had to sacrifice things,

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Speaker 1: and this is just the thing for us.

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Speaker 2: I absolutely love that and I resonate with that so much, because,

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Speaker 2: like you said, twenty two twenty has just been a

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Speaker 2: year that you know, we couldn't we obviously couldn't have

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Speaker 2: for scene, and so many people are dealing with losses

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Speaker 2: and not being able to do something. And I know

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Speaker 2: this is very like frivolous, but I had twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: was like my year of adventures. I was like going

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Speaker 2: to Europe and going to New Zealand, and I'm someone

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Speaker 2: who doesn't like to travel, so like I had got

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Speaker 2: my head around that, and then when it wasn't happening,

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Speaker 2: it is like, of course it's devastating, but I love

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Speaker 2: what you guys said, like you just got to peek

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Speaker 2: yourself up and keep going and just go, Okay, it's

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Speaker 2: not happening. This is this is not how a book

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Speaker 2: launch you know, would be. But we're going to do

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Speaker 2: the best we can. And I know you guys are

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Speaker 2: doing that, so that's awesome.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I mean I always like to look at it in

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Speaker 4: the sense of like, well, what can I actually control

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Speaker 4: in this scenario, because there are a handful of things

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Speaker 4: I can control and there are a handful of things

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Speaker 4: I absolutely cannot. So I think we're fixating a lot

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Speaker 4: on the things that we can control here, you know,

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Speaker 4: what kinds of media we do from home and our

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Speaker 4: attitudes through that time. And I think once you do that,

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Speaker 4: you kind of let go of a lot of stuff

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Speaker 4: and you're not carrying the burden of stuff you actually

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Speaker 4: cannot control, because I just don't think it's that healthy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean we're the same as you. We

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Speaker 1: were both supposed to be going to Europe on the

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Speaker 1: exact same day, on the exact same flight with our boyfriends, so.

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Speaker 3: Not deliberately act very accidentally.

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Speaker 1: Accidentally because Zara and I just have the same brain

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Speaker 1: now and clearly think to do the exact same thing

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Speaker 1: at the exact same time. But yeah, I once the

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Speaker 1: Europe trip was canceled, I actually don't remember like going

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Speaker 1: through a grieving process for that or being upset, like,

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Speaker 1: of course it's disappointing, But I think both of us

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Speaker 1: and our partners are just the kind of people where

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Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, well that's the reality. What can we

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Speaker 1: do to fix it, or what can we do to

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Speaker 1: I guess still make twenty twenty worthwhile and still pack

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Speaker 1: it with whatever we can. So yeah, I mean it's

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Speaker 1: a really tricky year and we're just going to try

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Speaker 1: and get through it and hopefully things go back to

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Speaker 1: normal sooner rather than later.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And I love what you were saying before. I

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Speaker 2: think Zara said in regards to you know, maybe this

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Speaker 2: is best case scenario, if that makes sense, But it's

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Speaker 2: an amazing way to look at it. All right, girls,

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Speaker 2: let's switch gears and take it back to the start.

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Speaker 2: So same. Shameless started as a side hustle, and I

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Speaker 2: know you were both working full time in media companies

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Speaker 2: and then you kind of came to this crossroads and

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Speaker 2: you know, this side hustle project kind of got bigger

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Speaker 2: than your jobs. And I would love for you to

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Speaker 2: talk about kind of the moment when you were like,

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Speaker 2: oh wait, this is real, we really have something here,

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Speaker 2: and kind of what was going through your head when

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Speaker 2: you decided to take Shameless to that next step go

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Speaker 2: full time. What did that look like for you, guys?

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Speaker 4: I mean, I wondered if that moment was the same,

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Speaker 4: But I think in a few conversations that miss and

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Speaker 4: I have had in the last couple of years, I

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Speaker 4: think it might be. We started Shameless in March twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 4: we were both working together. In the July of that year,

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Speaker 4: Mish went freelance and I went to another job for

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Speaker 4: six months while we tried to really or we tried

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Speaker 4: to really make Shameless a thing on the side, and

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Speaker 4: we were kind of building it up, but also kind

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Speaker 4: of distracted by the need to do our jobs and

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Speaker 4: earn money.

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Speaker 3: And I think by the.

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Speaker 4: Next February, so it probably took an entire year, when

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Speaker 4: I was sitting at my normal nine to five job

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Speaker 4: and we were putting out tickets for our very first

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Speaker 4: live show, and I was like the world's worst employee

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Speaker 4: in that job, because I spent half my screen was

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Speaker 4: on Shameless stuff, and half my screen was on.

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Speaker 3: Other stuff and on the work I should have been doing.

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Speaker 4: And we were selling these tickets at about nine am,

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Speaker 4: and I was sitting at my desk and we watched

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Speaker 4: them go in about six minutes, and I was like,

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Speaker 4: I'm still sitting at my nine to five job, and

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Speaker 4: there are two hundred and fifty people who have snapped

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Speaker 4: up these tickets faster than I've been able to refresh

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Speaker 4: the page. And I think we were both like then

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Speaker 4: we probably I need to get out of this job now,

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Speaker 4: like we need to really commit to this full time

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Speaker 4: and make it, you know, our baby, dare I say,

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Speaker 4: I mean it had been, but our proper baby, because

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Speaker 4: suddenly I think if people are willing to give you

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Speaker 4: their time on an evening, I just I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I feel like something about that means it's like a

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Speaker 4: different kind of investment than just putting them or putting

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Speaker 4: you in their ears every day or every week.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like kind of compared to you know, just a

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Speaker 2: free podcast, and then you're like, oh no, wow, like

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Speaker 2: we have a community here.

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Speaker 1: I think that was a huge one for us, Like

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Speaker 1: when we left our jobs. I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people when they hear our story, they think the podcast

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Speaker 1: must have been making money or it must have been

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Speaker 1: a source of income for us early on. It is

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Speaker 1: not the case. When we left our jobs, I think

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Speaker 1: the podcast was maybe almost three months old, probably not

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Speaker 1: even that, so we only had a couple of thousand

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Speaker 1: listeners to the show every week. But we just knew

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Speaker 1: in our guts there was something about Shameless that just

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Speaker 1: said to us, this is it. This is it. You

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Speaker 1: have to pursue it, you have to give it a shot.

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Speaker 1: I think it's also important to note that It wasn't

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Speaker 1: like we were in the dream job. It wasn't like

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Speaker 1: we were super happy with the work we were doing.

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Speaker 1: We were looking at a job environment that we felt

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Speaker 1: was a little bit toxic, and we also felt like

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Speaker 1: we weren't secure. We were really worried about either losing

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Speaker 1: our jobs and having our entire Melbourne office, which was

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Speaker 1: a satellite office, being closed, or we were worried about

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Speaker 1: the pressure to move up to Sydney, and we didn't

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Speaker 1: want to move to Sydney. We love our families, we

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Speaker 1: love our lives here in Melbourne. So as much as

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Speaker 1: like looking back it's like, oh wow, what a decision

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Speaker 1: like leaving a job to pursue this thing that's made

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Speaker 1: no money and doesn't really have an audience and is

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Speaker 1: really quite new and fresh, we weren't happy, and so

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Speaker 1: we kind of thought, we're twenty three. We have all

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Speaker 1: the time and freedom in the world that we're not

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Speaker 1: going to have when we want to have families and

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Speaker 1: mortgages and partners who were potentially financially relying on us

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Speaker 1: to contribute to our household. So we just thought, well,

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Speaker 1: if we're not going to take the chance now, when

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Speaker 1: the hell are we going to do it, and I'm

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Speaker 1: really glad we did. The podcast didn't even start making

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Speaker 1: money until I think October of that year, so we

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Speaker 1: launched in March. We left our jobs in June July.

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Speaker 1: The podcast started providing a very very small amount of

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Speaker 1: income in October November, and it wasn't until I guess

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Speaker 1: we got to that live show stage that we thought, Okay, yes,

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Speaker 1: Zara also needs to quit her job, but this needs

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Speaker 1: to be something that we just funnel all of our

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Speaker 1: energy into. If it fails, it fails, but we really

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Speaker 1: don't think it will because there's something good here.

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Speaker 2: I absolutely love that, and I resonate with that so much.

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Speaker 2: I remember there being a point where I was working

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Speaker 2: full time corporate Zarah. I laughed because I would like,

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Speaker 2: you know, like have my like law documents up here,

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Speaker 2: and then like over here, I'd be like editing a

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Speaker 2: YouTube or putting it idle or something, and then quickly

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Speaker 2: like exit out of it. But I resonate with that

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Speaker 2: so much. And I love what you guys said in

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Speaker 2: regards to you had such a passion and you weren't

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Speaker 2: happy in your nine to five's and you're like if

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Speaker 2: now when, And I think it's huge. And but in

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Speaker 2: saying that, I think a lot of people, you know,

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Speaker 2: pick the safe option. They almost are kind of like

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Speaker 2: they're at that point and they just don't sort of

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Speaker 2: go down that route because I feel like, you know,

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Speaker 2: growing up, we're very much taught to pick the safe

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Speaker 2: option and you shouldn't, you know, go outside of this box.

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Speaker 2: And so i'd love to ask you, guys, if you

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Speaker 2: know a listener, And this podcast is all about action,

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Speaker 2: actionable tips, so I'll do it throughout the whole thing,

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Speaker 2: but i'd love to ask you guys, you know, if

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Speaker 2: there is a listener and they're currently got this side hustle,

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Speaker 2: they're super passionate about it, and they are in a

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Speaker 2: nine to five in a full time position, and they

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Speaker 2: are kind of at this crossroads they're like, what do

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Speaker 2: I do? Do I go fall into this? Because me

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Speaker 2: very much, I was like, if I don't go fall

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Speaker 2: into this, now, I think I'm going to kind of

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Speaker 2: miss the boat or it's all going to just get

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Speaker 2: too much. So if they're at that crossroads, what advice

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Speaker 2: would you have to them in regards to following a

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Speaker 2: passion compared to, you know, sticking to the safe nine

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Speaker 2: to five.

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Speaker 4: And the thing is it depends on a definition of safe, right,

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Speaker 4: because I actually think that pursuing shameless was the safe option.

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Speaker 4: I think it was the safe option because maybe not

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Speaker 4: financially or but I felt like, this is the safe

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Speaker 4: option because this is an idea that I don't see

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Speaker 4: anywhere else, and if I don't do this now, somebody

402
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,040
Speaker 4: else will feel this hole. Like absolutely, somebody else will

403
00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:35,639
Speaker 4: feel this whole. We've got to hurry up and get

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Speaker 4: it done. So that's why it felt like the safe option,

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Speaker 4: because I kind of didn't feel like I felt like

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Speaker 4: almost our hands were forced because of timing. And I

407
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Speaker 4: think if somebody's got something on the side where they

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Speaker 4: feel like they do have an idea and they ease

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Speaker 4: a gap in the market, and if they don't go

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Speaker 4: now they know somebody else will feel that hole, then

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Speaker 4: I think the safe option is cha chasing that dream

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Speaker 4: and chasing that side hustle. Like I think it is

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Speaker 4: the safe option because the last thing you want is

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Speaker 4: to look back and be like, well, I had that

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Speaker 4: idea and I was sitting on it and I didn't

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Speaker 4: do anything about it because I was really scared or

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Speaker 4: really worried about what might happen. I think that's when

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Speaker 4: you kind of you don't want that those elements of

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Speaker 4: regret I don't think.

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Speaker 1: I think my advice as well would be take it

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Speaker 1: seriously from the get go. You can love something and

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Speaker 1: it can be your passion project, and you can still

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Speaker 1: take it seriously and not feel ashamed about that. I

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Speaker 1: think there's such a tendency with female entrepreneurs or female

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Speaker 1: business founders to want to say that everything around them

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Speaker 1: is luck, that they're lucky to be where they are,

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Speaker 1: And I know that this is not an idea for me.

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Speaker 1: This is a brilliant book written by Jamilla Risby, who

429
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,359
Speaker 1: is a mentor of ours, Not Just Lucky, which really

430
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,800
Speaker 1: explores how women in the workplace and women in business

431
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Speaker 1: tend to attribute all of their success to luck. Zara

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Speaker 1: and I have always wanted to make it super clear

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Speaker 1: from the beginning of Shameless kind of reaching some level

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Speaker 1: of success that yes, of course luck plays a role

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Speaker 1: in what happened with Shameless, But we were so strategic

436
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,880
Speaker 1: with this podcast from the get go. When we say

437
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:03,840
Speaker 1: it was a side hustle and a hobby, it really

438
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 1: truly was. But it was also a hobby that had

439
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:13,160
Speaker 1: spreadsheets and analytics and strategy behind it. Like from episode one,

440
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,600
Speaker 1: we had a Google sheets dock where we would enter

441
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,720
Speaker 1: how many Instagram followers have we got this week? What

442
00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:22,520
Speaker 1: was our download number? What is the week on week

443
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,960
Speaker 1: growth there? We don't have any marketing budgets, so what

444
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,200
Speaker 1: can we do or what can we put out into

445
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,720
Speaker 1: the world that will hopefully get some eyeballs on what

446
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,439
Speaker 1: we're doing. And I think it's important for people to

447
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:35,760
Speaker 1: be transparent about that because it's not like we just

448
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:37,879
Speaker 1: threw something at the wall in the hope it would stick.

449
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,840
Speaker 1: We really wanted to approach this with our brains as

450
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 1: well as our hearts, so I'm glad that it paid off,

451
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,359
Speaker 1: and I think Zia's right. I think for us it

452
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,399
Speaker 1: was the safer option because we had to look at

453
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 1: it very pragmatically. As much as we adore the podcast

454
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:53,639
Speaker 1: and we would do it for free because it was

455
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:55,520
Speaker 1: so enjoyable and so much fun to sit down and

456
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,399
Speaker 1: chat every week as friends, we wanted it to be

457
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,920
Speaker 1: a business and an income, so we had to think

458
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:02,440
Speaker 1: about it with both sides of our brain.

459
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,720
Speaker 2: And I love what you said about you and being

460
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:12,719
Speaker 2: very sort of authentic and open about you took it

461
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 2: seriously from the start and it was strategic and it's like, yeah,

462
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 2: it's not luck. You put in so much effort and

463
00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 2: so much work. And I think that is super refreshing

464
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 2: because we do tend to do that as females are like, oh,

465
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,280
Speaker 2: you know, you know, like I, it's too super lucky.

466
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,360
Speaker 2: It was the right timing and that sort of thing.

467
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:36,360
Speaker 2: And I think that's an important thing to highlight, is

468
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 2: how much work and how much effort, And especially I

469
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,359
Speaker 2: don't know about you guys, but at the start of

470
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 2: a side hustle, when it you know, isn't making money

471
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,359
Speaker 2: and it hasn't got much traction and stuff like that,

472
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,560
Speaker 2: it can be kind of this weird thing where you're like,

473
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,680
Speaker 2: you don't want to tell people how much effort you're

474
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:56,639
Speaker 2: putting into it.

475
00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:58,680
Speaker 3: A farcy I thought at.

476
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,360
Speaker 4: The time, and I've said this scene that if if

477
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,680
Speaker 4: anyone had seen those spreadsheets from when we were having

478
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 4: like five hundred listeners per episode, they probably would have

479
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 4: laughed at us, like it would have looked so ott.

480
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,360
Speaker 4: But I think at the end of the day, you've

481
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 4: got to be willing to do those things that almost

482
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 4: do seem ott and almost do seem embarrassing because you

483
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 4: have to start somewhere. You can't just bring that stuff

484
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 4: in halfway through, because I don't think you can get

485
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,199
Speaker 4: the growth if you're not actively trying to pursue the growth.

486
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's no shame in taking your dreams and

487
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 1: your goals seriously. Like you to yourself to take yourself

488
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 1: seriously and your passion seriously, and you shouldn't downplay that

489
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 1: or feel ashamed for.

490
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:37,480
Speaker 2: That one hundred percent. And I think it's so important

491
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 2: to touch on that. And I guess also a last

492
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:46,119
Speaker 2: thing to do with your at your podcast and the

493
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:50,959
Speaker 2: start of your podcast is run us through what was

494
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,880
Speaker 2: going through your head in regards to when you did

495
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 2: start the podcast. And you know it wasn't almost like

496
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 2: main string thing to do. It's very outside the box,

497
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 2: so you're very much kind of paving your own way

498
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 2: and doing your own thing. And I think personally I

499
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 2: am someone who in the sort of when I was younger,

500
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,879
Speaker 2: I guess more like I liked sticking to what was

501
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 2: known and what everyone else did, and you guys have

502
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,159
Speaker 2: very much kind of blown that concept up. Can you

503
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 2: talk about starting a business in regards to it being

504
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 2: so new and it being so not done, if that

505
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 2: makes sense.

506
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 1: I mean I personally really loved that element of it.

507
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,400
Speaker 1: I know that podcasting a few years ago was quite

508
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,959
Speaker 1: a niche, a very very different space in Australia compared

509
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 1: to what it is now. But Zara and I were

510
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,159
Speaker 1: avid podcast fans. We came from a media company that

511
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 1: had a podcast network, and we were seeing how popular

512
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 1: podcasts were even then, and we were watching what was

513
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: happening in the US and the UK, and we knew

514
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 1: that podcast was a huge mainstream platform over there. I

515
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,160
Speaker 1: think podcasting really came into its own in the US

516
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 1: and about twenty sixteen twenty seventeen, and so Zara and

517
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:10,959
Speaker 1: I just thought, we like this is We love it.

518
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,439
Speaker 1: We listen to podcasts all the time. They're perfect for

519
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 1: when we're busy, which is always if we're cooking, or

520
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 1: we're driving somewhere or where I don't know, doing errands

521
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,920
Speaker 1: around the house or at the supermarket. We can listen

522
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 1: to a podcast, whereas we can't watch a video or

523
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 1: read something. So we just thought, okay, well eventually it's

524
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 1: going to come here. Like Australia tends to be a

525
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 1: little bit behind with technology, trends.

526
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 3: We know that we're any tread.

527
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: To catch up any trend any basically, and the one

528
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: call we saw we saw in the Australian podcasting space

529
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 1: there was so much content for women over thirty, There

530
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 1: was so much content for men across the board. There

531
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: really wasn't any content for women in their twenties who

532
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 1: care about stereotypically young woman things like we do. Like

533
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 1: we love reality TV, we love talking about Instagram trends

534
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 1: and influencer culture and celebrity news. So for us, we're like, well,

535
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: there's a whole let's just fill that hole.

536
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 4: And I think the other element to this is that

537
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 4: we kind of felt like the content that was being

538
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 4: aimed at women like all of us was being decided

539
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 4: by boardrooms of people who didn't who weren't like us.

540
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 4: So often they were men and middle aged men or

541
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 4: middle aged women, and we were kind of like, well,

542
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 4: what if we just created the content for people like us?

543
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 4: And when you ask about, like what's it like to

544
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 4: create a business in this kind of like a new sphere,

545
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 4: it was really interesting because we kind of just looked

546
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 4: at what was happening and we're kind of like, let's

547
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 4: just do the opposite of that, like, let's deliberately do

548
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 4: the opposite of that and see how it works. And

549
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 4: it started to work. And then once it started to work,

550
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 4: we found ourselves in conversations with bigger media companies and

551
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,120
Speaker 4: people in those boardrooms who were like asking us occasionally

552
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 4: to come onto their network or kind of wanting to

553
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 4: work alongside us. And every single time we entered those meetings,

554
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 4: we kind of always left because they were still trying

555
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 4: to apply their model to what we were doing, and

556
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,439
Speaker 4: we would always leave and be like, are we the

557
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 4: crazy ones here? Because I don't think what they're doing

558
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 4: is going to work. And we would always leave these

559
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 4: meetings and be like, I still feel like it's our track.

560
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,200
Speaker 4: I want to I want to pursue, and I think

561
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 4: that's what's worked for us the entire time is kind

562
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 4: of like creating this new path, and it's been kind

563
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 4: of beautiful because even people who have been in the

564
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 4: media industry for decades are kind of all at ale

565
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 4: level playing field now when it comes to podcasting because

566
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,719
Speaker 4: it is relatively new, and so you can kind of

567
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 4: create your own adventure. So that's what we've been doing,

568
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 4: creating our own adventure because we feel like traditional traditional

569
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 4: forms of media just can't really you can't really apply

570
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 4: that model to what the new podcasting space is doing.

571
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 2: M I could not agree more. And can I just

572
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 2: quickly say, guys, before your podcast and I've probably been

573
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 2: listening for like just I found it just over a

574
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 2: year ago. Wow, And before that, I am like, I'm

575
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 2: a big self development person. That's what my whole podcast

576
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 2: is about, so very much self development chunky. So any

577
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 2: podcast I would listen to it wasn't kind of for fun.

578
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 2: It was almost like I was constantly like learning. And

579
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,400
Speaker 2: how I found your podcast was I actually had some

580
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 2: sort of health issues with just being exhausted and I've

581
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 2: recently been diagnosed with like a thiraid condition and stuff.

582
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 2: So my my natural path was like, you know, listen

583
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 2: to podcasts and have that time, but don't be like,

584
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 2: you know, constantly like learning and doing. And so someone

585
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,919
Speaker 2: recommended your podcast and I was like, oh, I'm you know,

586
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 2: I'm not interested in news. I'm not interested in journalism,

587
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,479
Speaker 2: like I'm very much in this other realm. And then

588
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 2: I was listening to your podcast and I was like,

589
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 2: I've never heard this sort of form of its still

590
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 2: being like news and relevant topics, but like articulated and

591
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 2: spoken it in a way where it was so easy

592
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 2: to absorb and like it felt like I was talking

593
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 2: with a friend and like the ideas, if that makes sense,

594
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 2: And so one hundred percent what you guys said in

595
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 2: regards to feeling something that was not there, and especially

596
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 2: like with pop culture, and like you said in regards

597
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 2: it's not like it was a you know, a board

598
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 2: sort of deciding these issues. You can tell that you

599
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 2: guys do that together, and I think that's huge.

600
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 1: Thank you, that's so sweet, and that I think that

601
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: comment you made about feeling like you're tuning into a

602
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 1: chat with friends, that is literally what Zara and I

603
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 1: have built the podcast around. We always want our listeners

604
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: to feel like they are part of the conversation and

605
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: they're having like a cup of tea with their girlfriends,

606
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: because that's important to us. Every week we go into

607
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 1: the podcast, we think, what are our friends talking about

608
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: right now, what's in our group chats? Where are the

609
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: conversations happening, And we just try to emulate that. So

610
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: like that's the biggest compliment in the world to us

611
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 1: with Shameless.

612
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 2: And I think but I think that's really important because

613
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 2: I think that's what makes the huge difference of in

614
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 2: regards to you know, talking to friends. It's that connection

615
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 2: of you when you feel like the person gets you.

616
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 2: And I think because you have the same you know, experiences,

617
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 2: and you know, there's so many times where I'm sitting

618
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 2: there and you're talking about of really deep issues and

619
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 2: I'm like, yes, she gets me. I agree. But then

620
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 2: we can talk about really and I just said we like,

621
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 2: I'm sitting there with you guys, but that's how it

622
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 2: feels like. But then you know, you guys can talk

623
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 2: about really sort of fun, lighthearted things. I think it's

624
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 2: such a good mix.

625
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 4: Well.

626
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 3: I think also.

627
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,479
Speaker 5: I've said this a little bit, but I don't think

628
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 5: that we would have able to create that kind of

629
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 5: content or that kind of tone if we were under

630
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 5: the banner of a bigger media company or you know,

631
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 5: as part of those bigger structures, because we were able

632
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 5: to create this by speaking about whatever the hell we

633
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 5: wanted to speak about, Like no one was telling us

634
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 5: not to say certain things.

635
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 3: And I think that in itself was very free.

636
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. And I think that's exactly what you

637
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 2: get from the podcast, which is the bit the big

638
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 2: difference or I'm stumbling on my words. Yeah, all right, guys,

639
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 2: So let's switch gears because I really want to get

640
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 2: into this book kind of picking up, but again, so

641
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 2: the space between, can you before we get into the

642
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 2: actual content of the book, can you tell us a

643
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 2: little bit about the process of writing it, just because

644
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 2: I just I couldn't imagine. It just seems like such

645
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 2: a huge project and I know you guys have chatted

646
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 2: about on your podcast it is, But just very quickly,

647
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 2: can you tell us about what that experience has been like,

648
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 2: because I'm sure it's sure.

649
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,479
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, this has been almost a year

650
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 1: and a half in the making. We signed the contract

651
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: to write this book with Penguin Random House in April

652
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: of last year. We began writing it then and kind

653
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: of thinking of ideas then. And we know that some

654
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: other duos and some other co hosts and co authors

655
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: have written books together in that they've literally contributed to

656
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 1: every single essay together, and they've kind of pasted to

657
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 1: laptop back and forth and written line by line. We

658
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: didn't want to do that, Like, that's just not Zia

659
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 1: and I I feel like, as much as we are

660
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 1: similar we have quite distinct writing voices, and we write

661
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: in quite different ways, so for us it was more important.

662
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: We wanted this book first of all, to be fun

663
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: and engaging, Like we wanted people to be able to

664
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: go through the book and feel like they weren't being

665
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: drained or bogged down by the content. And that's a

666
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: tricky thing to do, given there's some really quite emotional, deep,

667
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 1: sometimes dark content in this book, Like there are stories

668
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: of trauma, there are stories of anxiety and enomy, triosis

669
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: and painful sex, toxic workplaces, toxic friends. But there are

670
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: a bunch of like really light and funny stuff intersperse throughout.

671
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: So the way we wrote it was we kind of

672
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 1: sat down, we thought, Okay, what are the major topics

673
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: from our own lives that we want to write separately.

674
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 1: We will write like longer form pieces three to five

675
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 1: thousand words on those different topics. Zara brought up things

676
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: from her life, like experiencing both of her parents having cancer.

677
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: I brought up things from my life. We put them

678
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: all in a Google doc and we're like, okay, how

679
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: is this mapping out? And then we thought, what are

680
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 1: the funny things that we want to do together, Like

681
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: let's write lists, and let's write email chains, and let's

682
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: write creative pieces and just random experiences of your twenties,

683
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 1: and let's collaborate on them. And those pieces, while they

684
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 1: they're not the hero pieces of the book, Like when

685
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 1: I'm looking at it now, I know that the standout

686
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 1: pieces of the essays that really delve into deep topics.

687
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 1: I'm so glad we put those funny, silly, stupid listicals

688
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: and funny things throughout the book because they make the

689
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: whole experience kind of feel far more balanced and more

690
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: indicative of what your twenties are really like.

691
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,959
Speaker 2: To me, Yes, I love that, and I can I

692
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 2: just say that, I really. I think my favorite parts

693
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 2: in the books were the email chains, really, and it's

694
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 2: so interesting because I am way more of like I

695
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:58,479
Speaker 2: thought it would be, more of the essays, and they

696
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 2: were really great and I did love the li but

697
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 2: I don't know the email chains. I think it's because

698
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 2: I've never read that format in a book. It was

699
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 2: really engaged.

700
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 4: Right, Well, we kind of wanted to emulate how we

701
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 4: would have a conversation on the podcast. I guess because

702
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 4: we were so many podcast listeners.

703
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 3: We're going to come to this book, and we.

704
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,839
Speaker 4: Thought, well, let's actually hash out an issue that we're

705
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 4: both kind of interested and invested in, but show our

706
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 4: sides of the coin and kind of flesh it out

707
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 4: together in a really long form way. And that really

708
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 4: was the case of us opening the Google doc miss

709
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 4: writing her answer, picking the message, being like, all right,

710
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,439
Speaker 4: I've emailed you said can you reply? And I'd reply

711
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 4: and we would literally just go back and forth, and

712
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 4: it would be interesting because we'd kind of get halfway

713
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 4: through and be like, where the fuck is this.

714
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,320
Speaker 3: Chain going, Like there's no structure here, We're just writing

715
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 3: to each other. But that was kind of the best part,

716
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 3: and then you kind of refine it later. But I

717
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 3: really loved doing those. I really really loved them.

718
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 4: They were like the fastest pieces that came together because

719
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 4: you're not stressing so much over the structure of every sentence.

720
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 4: It's very much about the conversation and how it flows.

721
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 1: And those are probably the least edited parts of the

722
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 1: book as well. I think while we went through and

723
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 1: we really edited and revised and redrafted the essays to

724
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,959
Speaker 1: get like to really hone in on what our point

725
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 1: was or what the lesson was. The email chains I

726
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: think we practically wrote them and we didn't really touch them.

727
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 1: I don't even remember reading some of those essays that

728
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: went into some of those email chains that went into

729
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 1: the book. So it's interesting to hear that's your favorite

730
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 1: part because I think a lot of people probably be

731
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 1: the same. They're the most representative of what the podcast is.

732
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 2: Like, I think that's what it is, and that it

733
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 2: was just a bit fun, if that makes sense. Like

734
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:40,879
Speaker 2: it was good to get into the deep stuff, and

735
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 2: like you said, like there was obviously issues there that

736
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 2: were super dark and super important, but then sort of

737
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 2: to break it up in this format where you guys

738
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 2: were going back and forth and you could see both

739
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 2: the sides, it was really cool. So I know the

740
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 2: book is broken down into four parts, so we have love, Mind,

741
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 2: and Body, ambition and voice. Personally, the last two were

742
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 2: my favorite because I think I fascinated with a lot

743
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 2: of things that you guys have gone through, as you know, female,

744
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:10,799
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know if we want to call

745
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 2: ourselves like entrepreneurs and having wanting to have opinions and

746
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 2: wanting to have a voice, and I really want to

747
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 2: get into something because personally, I grew up in a

748
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 2: family of three older brothers and a very kind of

749
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 2: you know, like normal household where my mom was a

750
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 2: stay at home mom and my dad you know, went

751
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 2: out and earned the money. And to be honest, for

752
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 2: a long time, I felt like, because I was this

753
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,720
Speaker 2: girl who was super like dominant and I had opinions

754
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 2: and I, you know, had this voice, I felt almost

755
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,320
Speaker 2: a bit ashamed a lot growing up because it didn't

756
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 2: feel I was very much told that that wasn't you know,

757
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 2: what a woman was supposed to be. And so I

758
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:03,959
Speaker 2: really resonated the voice section of the book. And I've

759
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,359
Speaker 2: got a chapter name here. I hope it's okay read

760
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,320
Speaker 2: it out, But it was called the space between finding

761
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 2: your voice and feeling self conscious about having one. I

762
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 2: think you wrote that, Sarah, Yeah, I did, and so

763
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 2: I would love for you to expand on this. And

764
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 2: I think a lot of you know, twenty somethink women

765
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 2: are almost in this sort of space where it's like, yeah,

766
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 2: I do have opinions and I do have this voice,

767
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 2: but I also don't know when I should assert them

768
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 2: and be this dominant person. And I just resonated with

769
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 2: it so much. I think when I was reading it,

770
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 2: I was just like, Oh my god, this is it

771
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 2: felt like I was reading my life. So I'd love

772
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 2: if you could kind of expand on that.

773
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:48,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. I mean I think that was one

774
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:49,479
Speaker 3: of I think that was an I say.

775
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 4: That came a bit later actually in the Peace, But

776
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 4: I'm so glad I wrote it because I think it's

777
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 4: probably gets the crux of how I like, fundamentally feel

778
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 4: about having a voice and having a public voice, and

779
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 4: it is that I like having a voice and I

780
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 4: like having opinions that they are often wrapped in self

781
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 4: consciousness even now, even today, like this is not me

782
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 4: talking about four or five years ago, this is me

783
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 4: talking about me right now. And I think there's a

784
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 4: line in the first sort of part of it where

785
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 4: I just say, like, why the fuck would anyone listen

786
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 4: to what I have to say anyway?

787
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 3: And it's true.

788
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 4: I think that's that and niggling thought that I've had

789
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:25,439
Speaker 4: in the back of my mind that I grew up

790
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 4: in a household where I was encouraged to be incredibly

791
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 4: opinionated and to question everything, and probably I think my

792
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 4: parents probably thought they like birthed monsters because they encouraged

793
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:36,839
Speaker 4: us to have these voices, and then suddenly we were

794
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 4: like questioning them on their politics and their religion and

795
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 4: making every conversation me and my sister like almost irrationally

796
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 4: like feminist. And it wasn't until I kind of left

797
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 4: the walls of my home, my family home, and kind

798
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 4: of entered into the real world that I started to

799
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,359
Speaker 4: feel shame for that voice. Where I'd be sitting out

800
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 4: for drinks and with friends and being really loud and opinionated,

801
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,280
Speaker 4: and then catching myself almost looking at myself from above

802
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 4: being like shut up, like shut up, you're being so

803
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 4: loud right now, or you're being so over the top

804
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 4: right now. And I still feel myself doing that a

805
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 4: little bit. I think a lot of women kind of

806
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 4: have these two competing forces, this idea that you have

807
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 4: a lot to say, and then this niggling thought in

808
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 4: the back of your mind that you should sort of

809
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 4: articulate those thoughts palatably and gently in order to be liked.

810
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 3: And it's a really really.

811
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,240
Speaker 4: Hard thing to grapple with for young women, young women anywhere.

812
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 4: But I think the more the more I speak and

813
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 4: the more I do this job, the better I get

814
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 4: at it.

815
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 3: But it's still a process.

816
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 1: I think it's a really interesting one because personally, I've

817
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 1: never felt self conscious about my voice around women. I

818
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,280
Speaker 1: do still sometimes feel self conscious about using my voice

819
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,800
Speaker 1: and sharing my opinions when I'm around a group of men,

820
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: and it's something that I still need to work through.

821
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 1: And I think it just it's helpful for women to

822
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 1: point to that and be like, why do I feel

823
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:58,959
Speaker 1: like that when I'm around guys? And I don't feel

824
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 1: like that when I'm around my go my girlfriends, and

825
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 1: I are all super opinionated, and I love that about us.

826
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,320
Speaker 1: I think it's a really healthy thing to have opinions

827
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 1: on the world and to think critically about your life

828
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: and critically about your place in society. But yet, when

829
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 1: I'm in a group of guys, I do want to

830
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 1: be liked, and I do want to be seen as

831
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: this like feminine, easy friendly, easy going, doesn't take.

832
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 3: Her color girl.

833
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 1: And it's so funny because I'm sure so many of

834
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: my guy friends would still be like, you're the most

835
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: opinion advision.

836
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 3: Is this the tone down version of you?

837
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 1: Yeah? But I think we're trying to wrangle with and

838
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: I think it's important that we raise young women. I mean,

839
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:42,879
Speaker 1: there's a piece in the voice section that I wrote

840
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: to my future daughter. I'm not pregnant yet. I'm so

841
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 1: terrified I've slip through the book yesterday. I'm like, I

842
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 1: people could read this that I'm like announcing some pregnancy

843
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: or something that I'm pregnant with the girl. But I

844
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 1: wrote that because I'm like, I want to raise my

845
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: daughter to feel like she can say whatever she wants

846
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 1: in whatever context she wants, and that her voice is

847
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: needed and necessary for her to live the life she

848
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: wants to live. Because it's not just important to raise

849
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 1: your opinion about the world in social scenarios, it's so

850
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 1: important for women to do it in the workplace, Like

851
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 1: if you're being mistreated, if you are upset about something

852
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 1: going on at work, if you feel like something needs

853
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 1: to change, you should be able to voice that. And

854
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 1: I would really hope that the next generation of young

855
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: girls will feel more emboldened to speak up when something's

856
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: not right.

857
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 2: It's so funny, miss, because my next question was to

858
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 2: talk about that letter to your daughter. And I think

859
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 2: I must have been like super hormonal when I read it,

860
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:39,799
Speaker 2: because I literally started tearing up. But I was like,

861
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 2: it is just so true, and I think it was

862
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 2: kind of even though I had such an amazing childhood

863
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 2: and you know that sort of thing, I still very

864
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 2: much was like I wish someone had told me this

865
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 2: when I was younger, and so I absolutely love that,

866
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 2: and I think, like you said, it is so important.

867
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 2: There has been so many cumstances, especially in my career,

868
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 2: like you said, Mish, in regards to you know, stuff

869
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,359
Speaker 2: happening and me going that is actually quite fucked and

870
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 2: I should have, you know, spoken up, and I should

871
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 2: have been that person. And now looking back, you know,

872
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 2: like who I am now, Like I guess I will

873
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 2: never know, but I think it's important to make sure

874
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 2: we're telling women to Yes, you should have a voice

875
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 2: and you should feel empowered, you know, to tell your

876
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 2: opinions and to have those conversations. So I love that

877
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 2: you touched on that.

878
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 1: Thank you.

879
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 2: Another huge part of the book that I loved was

880
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 2: in the mind and Body part. And I know that

881
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 2: as Zara, you got into some very personal stuff with

882
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,720
Speaker 2: your endo, and I know, Mish you also got into

883
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:49,280
Speaker 2: very personal stuff with your anxiety, which, like I said

884
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:51,839
Speaker 2: priefily to you, guys, I think off air as I

885
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,919
Speaker 2: suffer with anxiety. So I really resonated with that part

886
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 2: of the book. But my question to you guys is

887
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 2: it is, you know, super personal and you're getting really

888
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 2: into that sort of you know, the dark times and

889
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 2: the not so pretty times. What was that like writing

890
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,879
Speaker 2: that And did you have any sort of moments where

891
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 2: you're like, I don't know if I want to share this,

892
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 2: or did you just go, yeah, we need to put

893
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 2: this out there.

894
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 4: A lot of people have wondered, like, what's it like

895
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 4: depend down something so personal and wait for it to

896
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 4: kind of be read by everybody else. And I think

897
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 4: my honest answer is, well, I just didn't really think

898
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,240
Speaker 4: about it so that I was able to get it done,

899
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 4: And that is my honest answer. But I also think

900
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:46,320
Speaker 4: that writing this stuff, writing about maybe my worry about

901
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:51,320
Speaker 4: fertility or worrying or kind of exploring how a condition

902
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 4: called vaginismus really messed with my mind for so many years,

903
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 4: felt like a really beautifully cathartic thing to be able

904
00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 4: to do. Like I genuinely felt like one of the

905
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 4: luckiest people in the world to be able to kind

906
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:06,240
Speaker 4: of have time and space through my job to write

907
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 4: out my thoughts and write out my feelings and actually

908
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:10,919
Speaker 4: make sense of them all because I don't think many

909
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 4: people have that opportunity. It was incredibly therapeutic, and so

910
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 4: I kind of just wrote this stuff. And I think

911
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,279
Speaker 4: Mish was quite similar, just as if it was the

912
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 4: two of us reading it, like if it was just

913
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:23,800
Speaker 4: for my eyes only, because I think if you're writing

914
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 4: this stuff thinking about every other person in the world

915
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,320
Speaker 4: reading it, you wouldn't get it out. And the first

916
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 4: version of my Vaginisma's essay was completely different to what

917
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 4: is in the book. I submitted it in the first

918
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 4: draft of the book. We got the first draft back

919
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 4: and I read it back and I was like, I

920
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 4: hate this essay, like I hate it. And I remember

921
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 4: sending it to Michelle and I was like, I don't

922
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 4: know what's wrong with it, but I think everything's wrong

923
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 4: with it. And she said to me, I think your

924
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 4: issue here is that you're trying to tell this story

925
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 4: without giving up much of yourself. Like you are trying

926
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,400
Speaker 4: to tell this story without telling much of the story

927
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 4: because you're trying to protect yourself. But if you're going

928
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 4: to tell the story, you kind of I have to

929
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,720
Speaker 4: tell the story properly. You have to tell people exactly

930
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,399
Speaker 4: how you felt. And so I just rewrote the whole

931
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,240
Speaker 4: thing and I finished it. Really, I wrote it really quickly,

932
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,319
Speaker 4: and I punched it out and I finished it, and

933
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 4: I was like, this is much better because they actually

934
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 4: gave parts of myself over to the story, and for

935
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,400
Speaker 4: that reason, it's a better story now.

936
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 3: So I would I would.

937
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 4: I wish I had a better answer for you when

938
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 4: it comes to like, well, what's it like to share

939
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,840
Speaker 4: this personal stuff? But I think I think the survival

940
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:29,439
Speaker 4: mechanism in me means that I haven't really thought about

941
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 4: other people reading it yet.

942
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:35,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think the anxiety of thinking about people reading

943
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 1: it really only hit me in probably the two or

944
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 1: three weeks leading up to publication. I think when we're

945
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 1: in the editing process and the only people who knew

946
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 1: about the stuff in the book was myself, Zara, and

947
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:49,439
Speaker 1: our wonderful team of editors, it felt very different. And

948
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 1: the lead up has been really hard mentally on me.

949
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 1: I do have an anxiety disorder. I wasn't anxious about

950
00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,840
Speaker 1: the anxiety essay in the book. There's an essay at

951
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:01,279
Speaker 1: the very very end of the book that I was

952
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 1: very nervous to share because it was about an experience

953
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,359
Speaker 1: of when I was eighteen that I really hadn't told

954
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 1: many people at all, and I had a full blown

955
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 1: panic attack the night before launch. So Monday night, I

956
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 1: had full blown panic attack, was uncontrollably sobbing, didn't know

957
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 1: what to do with myself. Felt like I had made

958
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 1: a huge mistake. And I don't think I have made

959
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 1: a mistake at all. I want to be really clear

960
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:22,880
Speaker 1: with that. I'm really happy that essays in the book.

961
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:27,319
Speaker 1: But I think the waiting process is quite agonizing. When

962
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 1: you've shared this much of yourself, and you've written some

963
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 1: of this stuff over a year ago, and then you

964
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 1: just have to sit and wait and hope that it's

965
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: received in the way you want it to be received.

966
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 1: That is fucking hard. And I think the night before launch,

967
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:45,240
Speaker 1: it was just this build up, like this complete buildup

968
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 1: of emotion and worry and stress about this one particular essay.

969
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 1: I just hope, like my one goal with this book

970
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 1: is for people to think that it's a generous book.

971
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot to gain from people talking

972
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 1: about the really difficult experience of their lives. And it

973
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: was really important for Zara and I, even with her

974
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:09,360
Speaker 1: vaginismus essay or her fertility essay and the essay on

975
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 1: her parents both having cancer. All my essays that were

976
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 1: really traumatic and upsetting that we didn't give unnecessary gory detail,

977
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 1: Like we did not want to approach these essays and

978
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:21,279
Speaker 1: be like, here's my trauma and he's like a blow

979
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 1: by blow account of exactly how it unfurled and how

980
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:28,360
Speaker 1: it unraveled. We wanted to use those experiences as a

981
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 1: platform to be helpful, and I'm just hoping that our

982
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 1: words can kind of help our readers map out how

983
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: they feel about their same trauma. So it's good that

984
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 1: we had so much time because the last essay in

985
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:47,799
Speaker 1: the book I wrote it probably five different times. The

986
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 1: first essay that went into the first draft is almost

987
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 1: an entirely different essay to what went into the book.

988
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 1: And I'm happy I had that process because I think

989
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: mentally and spiritually I need to needed to get out

990
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: those details. I needed to write them on paper and

991
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 1: feel that cathartic release and feel like I was retracing

992
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 1: my steps and like the scars that that kind of

993
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 1: experience leaves you with. But then I had the time

994
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 1: to be like, Okay, why am I writing this? I'm

995
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 1: not writing this for myself. I'm not writing this to

996
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 1: tell everyone every single thing that happened. I'm writing this

997
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 1: so that someone who has gone through the same thing

998
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 1: can feel comfort and feel seen and feel heard and

999
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 1: feel a tiny little bit less alone. So the end,

1000
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: the final essay that goes in is like very very

1001
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 1: much about my feelings and my thoughts and the journey

1002
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 1: after that experience, not the experience of itself. And that

1003
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 1: was super important to boat Zara and I that we

1004
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 1: could kind of find some kind of comfort and hope

1005
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:49,000
Speaker 1: and lesson to come out of each experience.

1006
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 2: And I think you can, like I definitely when you

1007
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 2: were talking about like this not being heavy experience, you

1008
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 2: can definitely feel like it doesn't feel like you are

1009
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 2: just like letting out your trauma. It definitely does feel

1010
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 2: comforting and helpful. And that's even like I there was

1011
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:12,319
Speaker 2: a couple of sort of important issues that you talk

1012
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 2: about in the book that I personally haven't been for

1013
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 2: you been through, sorry, But I have friends you know,

1014
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 2: who have end doing different stuff like that, and it

1015
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 2: was super insightful for me to be like, oh, wow,

1016
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 2: this you know, this is how they are feeling, and

1017
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 2: so I completely agree with that, and I think also

1018
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:36,319
Speaker 2: that's what makes you two so special is because you

1019
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:41,840
Speaker 2: are vulnerable, but it doesn't feel, you know, like heavy

1020
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 2: on me. If that makes sense. I think that does.

1021
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:50,240
Speaker 2: So I think that's awesome. So last question about the book,

1022
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:53,799
Speaker 2: and this is another favorite part, and it's when you

1023
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 2: guys spoke about I'll read the chapter Dame again. So

1024
00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 2: it's the rough and tumble on rejection. So you guys

1025
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 2: talked about when you pitched your podcast to a very

1026
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 2: well known media company and they considered it and you

1027
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 2: almost thought it was going to happen, but then it

1028
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:15,759
Speaker 2: got pulled, and you really talk about this concept of rejection.

1029
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:19,399
Speaker 2: But you know, in hindsight, this is what started this

1030
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:22,879
Speaker 2: huge journey and inventor of what Shameless is. Can you

1031
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:27,320
Speaker 2: guys chat to us about rejection because I think twenty

1032
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 2: twenty for most of us has been a year with

1033
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 2: a lot of rejection at a lot of loss, where

1034
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 2: things have not gone the way we thought they would go.

1035
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:39,880
Speaker 2: So I thought this was a really cool sort of

1036
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 2: section to end on. So you know, if someone has

1037
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 2: kind of had something and they've got rejection, can you

1038
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:49,320
Speaker 2: chat them about what that was like for you guys?

1039
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:51,719
Speaker 2: Give us a bit of a pep talk, you can

1040
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 2: do that.

1041
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 3: I mean.

1042
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 4: The thing is, when we had the idea for Shameless

1043
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 4: mich And I thought it was a good idea, like

1044
00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 4: I said to you at the start, because we were like,

1045
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,919
Speaker 4: here's this gap in the market that if we don't feel,

1046
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 4: somebody else will. So we did pitch it to the

1047
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 4: media company we were working out at the time. They

1048
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 4: said yes, and then they said no. And then after

1049
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 4: that we said, okay, well can we do this ourselves,

1050
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 4: like are we able to kind of launch this independently

1051
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:19,760
Speaker 4: on our weekends because we think it's a good idea,

1052
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,720
Speaker 4: And they said yes, and then we kind of kept

1053
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 4: creating the podcast. But because we were completely self taught,

1054
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 4: like we had no idea how podcasting functioned. We did

1055
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:31,399
Speaker 4: not know what equipment to use, We didn't know how

1056
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:33,919
Speaker 4: do we even host properly? We didn't we just didn't

1057
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 4: know the fundamentals. We kept pitching it to podcast networks too,

1058
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 4: Like we kept going to the big networks and being like,

1059
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:43,600
Speaker 4: here's our idea, here's what we've got already, do you

1060
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:46,720
Speaker 4: want it? And nobody took it on. And so after

1061
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 4: about a year of us making it we realized that

1062
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:53,719
Speaker 4: that was the biggest blessing of all that nobody took

1063
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:56,800
Speaker 4: it on, Like nobody saw this is a good idea.

1064
00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:59,800
Speaker 3: Nobody did because nobody took it on board their network.

1065
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 4: And I think and that's been the luckiest thing for

1066
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 4: our business because it means that now we work for ourselves.

1067
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:06,319
Speaker 4: We have nobody else telling us what to do, what

1068
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 4: we should say. And I think, if there's someone out

1069
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:11,919
Speaker 4: there who has an idea that feels like nobody's taking

1070
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 4: it on, but you still think that's a good idea,

1071
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 4: and you still think there's a gap in the market,

1072
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 4: pursue it. Just because other people don't see your idea

1073
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 4: doesn't mean it's wrong. No albready saw our idea and

1074
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 4: that was why we were able to create it in

1075
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 4: the way that we did, and it was the best

1076
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 4: thing that happened for either of us.

1077
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 3: So we get pictures.

1078
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:31,359
Speaker 4: All the time, all day, every day, and we don't

1079
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:35,880
Speaker 4: take any external pictures outside of the company. But I imagine

1080
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:37,719
Speaker 4: that there are women who email us who see that

1081
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:39,840
Speaker 4: we don't reply and assume that means we think that

1082
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 4: their idea is bad. But the reality is we will

1083
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 4: probably pass on a million good ideas because we don't

1084
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:46,839
Speaker 4: have the time to think about it. So I would

1085
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 4: just say, if you think you're sitting on something good,

1086
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:49,839
Speaker 4: keep pursuing it.

1087
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 1: I think that's the important thing to realize. There is

1088
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:55,359
Speaker 1: no one person, or one group of people, or one

1089
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 1: boardroom that knows what's going to work and what doesn't.

1090
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 1: Everyone is guessing. Yes. Of course, experience can come into it,

1091
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 1: and some people will have a better hunch as to

1092
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:07,319
Speaker 1: what's a good idea and what's a bad one than

1093
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 1: other people. However, nobody, not the best, most brilliant entrepreneur

1094
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:17,840
Speaker 1: or investor in the world, knows every single time what

1095
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:20,400
Speaker 1: idea is going to work. And I think it's important

1096
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:23,839
Speaker 1: for women, particularly young women, who generally do not take

1097
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:26,840
Speaker 1: the same risks that young men do in business and

1098
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 1: in career, know that know that your opinion on your

1099
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 1: idea is worth just as much as anyone else is.

1100
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:36,840
Speaker 1: If you think it's a good idea, please please, please

1101
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 1: at least give yourself the opportunity to pursue it. Who's

1102
00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 1: to say that that boardroom of people who aren't your age,

1103
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 1: aren't your demographic, are not your target customer. Know more

1104
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:48,279
Speaker 1: about your idea and whether or not all work than

1105
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 1: you do. I think it's important to look at your circle,

1106
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:53,399
Speaker 1: and we did look at our circle in those early

1107
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:56,720
Speaker 1: days of our sisters, who are basically the shameless brain trust.

1108
00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 1: That's how much we trust them with every single thing

1109
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 1: we do. We also our best friends, and we thought,

1110
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 1: would they like our idea? Fuck the people in the

1111
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:06,279
Speaker 1: boardroom who said no to us, they're all in their

1112
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 1: forties and they're not our target demo. Our target demo

1113
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 1: are our friends and our sisters, and the people like us.

1114
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 1: Would they listen? Would they like what we're doing, or

1115
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:16,279
Speaker 1: would they buy our product or whatever your business is.

1116
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:19,319
Speaker 1: If your answer is yes, then do not listen to

1117
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:21,759
Speaker 1: people who are outside your demo trying to tell you

1118
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 1: how to do what you want to do. Like, just

1119
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 1: give yourself a shot, because it's the best thing we

1120
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:29,959
Speaker 1: ever did. And even if it failed, the amount of things,

1121
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 1: and even if it does fail one day, who's to

1122
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:34,240
Speaker 1: say that next year everyone leaves our podcast and doesn't

1123
00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:36,399
Speaker 1: listen to it anymore because Zara and I become shit

1124
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 1: at our jobs or we're not on the.

1125
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:39,879
Speaker 3: And what people are complete narcissists.

1126
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:43,840
Speaker 1: Even if that happens, it is worth it. The amount

1127
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 1: you learn and the amount you grow from pursuing your

1128
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:51,399
Speaker 1: goal and pursuing your dream is so insane, Like we

1129
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:55,840
Speaker 1: have grown so much as people and as media professionals,

1130
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 1: so there's no loss here, Like, even if it doesn't work,

1131
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 1: you're to gain so much from it individually. So just

1132
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 1: give yourself a shot, guys.

1133
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:10,880
Speaker 2: I was just like nodding my that a whole time.

1134
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:14,880
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for something summing that up, I

1135
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 2: could not agree more. And you know, what is that quote?

1136
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 2: It's like, rejection is just redirection. Yes, I love that

1137
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:23,719
Speaker 2: I heard it.

1138
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:24,360
Speaker 3: That's awesome.

1139
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 2: Oh really yeah, And I think that is that is

1140
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:30,959
Speaker 2: so true. And I think also that's such a great

1141
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:35,920
Speaker 2: reminder because just imagine if you guys got that rejection

1142
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 2: and then that was it and you just left it

1143
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:42,240
Speaker 2: and you didn't pursue this, like you know, Shameless wouldn't

1144
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 2: be here. And I think that's so important for the listeners,

1145
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:50,239
Speaker 2: you know, to realize that if you've got something and

1146
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:52,719
Speaker 2: it feels right to you and you have that motivation

1147
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 2: and that passion, keep going for sure. Amazing. So God,

1148
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:04,280
Speaker 2: a podcast, a book, what is next for shameless?

1149
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 4: Asleep?

1150
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 1: Asleep? And you know, what like out of the holiday

1151
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 1: and be like, oh my god, We've got all these

1152
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 1: projects that we're lining up and we're so excited. And

1153
00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 1: we do have some like we're doing season three of

1154
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:17,319
Speaker 1: Love et cetera, our podcast with Bumble, which is really

1155
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:20,600
Speaker 1: exciting that'll come out later this year. But apart from that,

1156
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 1: you know what we want a holiday. We want to

1157
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:25,719
Speaker 1: be able to travel when that's allowed, travel with our

1158
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 1: partners and experience things and take a breath. Because as

1159
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:32,920
Speaker 1: much as we adore work and as much as we

1160
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 1: love what we do and it brings us so much fulfillment,

1161
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:39,360
Speaker 1: we are hugely socially oriented and we adore our partners,

1162
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:41,080
Speaker 1: and we adore our families and our friends, and we

1163
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 1: want to spend time with them. We really miss them

1164
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:46,000
Speaker 1: right now in lockdown, So that is the utmost priority

1165
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:46,799
Speaker 1: for both of us.

1166
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:49,800
Speaker 3: And I wonder if you're the same as our storagey.

1167
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 4: But next year, I don't think we have anything on

1168
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:55,360
Speaker 4: right like, in terms of work, we have no project

1169
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:58,359
Speaker 4: locked in and that excites me to no end because

1170
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:00,600
Speaker 4: what that means is that it's a complete life canvas

1171
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 4: that we can kind of make whatever we want when

1172
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 4: we feel like it, when we're in this headspace.

1173
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:06,759
Speaker 3: We've got ideas, We've got a blank canvas to work with.

1174
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:09,839
Speaker 4: So I'm so excited about that that we can kind

1175
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 4: of use the next few months to kind of lie

1176
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 4: low and then over summer come up with some ideas

1177
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 4: and then just smash them out next year.

1178
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:16,920
Speaker 3: Like that excites me too.

1179
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. I am in the exact same b

1180
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 2: I because we were meant to go to Europe this year.

1181
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 2: I didn't take any leg Christmas holidays or anything at

1182
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 2: the end of last year, so I feel exhausted. I

1183
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:33,800
Speaker 2: feel exhausted, and I've just yeah, I had one thing

1184
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 2: after the other. So I am the exact same boat,

1185
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:38,760
Speaker 2: and I absolutely love that. It's honestly a kind of

1186
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 2: like a breath of fresh air. Makes me feel less

1187
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:47,360
Speaker 2: guilty for wanting to do the exact same I'm glad. Well,

1188
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:50,840
Speaker 2: thank you so much, miss and Zara. You guys have

1189
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:54,280
Speaker 2: just been bloody amazing and I cannot thank you enough

1190
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:59,280
Speaker 2: for your time for coming on the show. Before we leave, you, guys,

1191
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:03,160
Speaker 2: can you let the audience know where they can find

1192
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:07,040
Speaker 2: the book holding our hands and where to find you guys.

1193
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:09,080
Speaker 1: Okay, well, first of all, I know that a lot

1194
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:12,280
Speaker 1: of people listening to podcasts will have a preference for audiobooks.

1195
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 1: There is an audiobook for the space between. It was

1196
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 1: really important for us to do that, So I've just

1197
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:20,760
Speaker 1: literally knocked out my headphones as I say that. So

1198
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:25,040
Speaker 1: you can buy our audiobook on Audible or Google Books

1199
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:27,360
Speaker 1: or whatever it's called. Wherever you get your audiobooks, it'll be.

1200
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:31,080
Speaker 1: As for the paperback version, you can get it on

1201
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 1: book topio if you want to have it delivered if

1202
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 1: you're in lockdown, or you can go to any good

1203
00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:38,760
Speaker 1: bookstore like Dimmis. You can go to Big W Target, Kmart.

1204
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 2: It is there amazing. And also where do they find

1205
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:43,920
Speaker 2: Shameless Like, I'm sure.

1206
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:47,680
Speaker 4: Shame find us on Instagram. I think Instagram is the best.

1207
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:50,320
Speaker 4: But you can find us on Instagram at Shameless Podcast.

1208
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:52,480
Speaker 4: And we also have a book club community on Facebook

1209
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:54,520
Speaker 4: which is Shameless Podcast book Club, which we love.

1210
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:55,720
Speaker 3: We just talked about books set.

1211
00:58:56,800 --> 00:58:59,800
Speaker 2: I love it and I so I had already got

1212
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:03,919
Speaker 2: the Audible version like in pre launch, so I used

1213
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 2: my credit and got that and then I got the

1214
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 2: physical copy. So I'm excited to listen to audio. So

1215
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 2: is it just you guys?

1216
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:13,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like one big long podcast.

1217
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:16,880
Speaker 2: Can't wait. Well, thank you so much.

1218
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:18,640
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Georgie.

1219
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:21,240
Speaker 1: You're huge fans of yours and you're doing an awesome job.

1220
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:24,040
Speaker 1: And it's so good to see other women in this

1221
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:27,320
Speaker 1: industry kind of take the microphone for themselves and share

1222
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:30,120
Speaker 1: their thoughts and take up space. I think more women

1223
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 1: need to take up space in the media. And we're

1224
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:33,680
Speaker 1: such big fans of yours and it's so great to

1225
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:36,000
Speaker 1: see all the success you're achieving. So well done.

1226
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:40,640
Speaker 2: I really appreciate that. And yes, let's take up some

1227
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:51,120
Speaker 2: more space. And that is it for today's episode. Thank

1228
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:54,640
Speaker 2: you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this chat.

1229
00:59:54,920 --> 01:00:00,720
Speaker 2: I absolutely loved interviewing Mish and Zara from Shameless and guys,

1230
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 2: if you did love this episode, if you love the podcast,

1231
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:07,960
Speaker 2: please give us a review or make sure you're subscribed.

1232
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:11,360
Speaker 2: It really helps out the Rise and Conquer podcast. And

1233
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:14,000
Speaker 2: if you do love the podcast and you love the

1234
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:17,240
Speaker 2: conversations that we have, I think that you would love

1235
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:20,440
Speaker 2: our Facebook group, So come and join us. It's just

1236
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:25,320
Speaker 2: Rise and Conquer podcast community and yeah, it's a private

1237
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:28,040
Speaker 2: group where we chat all things we do on the podcast,

1238
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 2: but thank you so much for listening. I'll chat to

1239
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 2: you in our next step