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Speaker 1: Olympians said about their parents. And we have this idea

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Speaker 1: that Olympians would have really pressuring control and pushing parents,

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Speaker 1: and some of them do. And those are the ones

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Speaker 1: that we hear some stories about where things don't go well.

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Speaker 1: Most of them said, my parents were just right behind me.

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Speaker 1: They were not pushing me. They saw my passion and

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Speaker 1: they were there to give me what I needed to

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Speaker 1: pursue it. But they stood behind me, right behind me,

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Speaker 1: not in front of me, pushing me.

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Speaker 2: This is the Parenting in Perspective podcast. It's a Happy

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Speaker 2: Families podcast. My name is doctor Justin Colson. Thank you

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Speaker 2: so much for joining in. Well, we're doing things a

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Speaker 2: little differently for the next little while. As you've probably

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Speaker 2: noticed with our last podcast, we're in the middle of

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Speaker 2: a series or we've just commenced a series of in

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Speaker 2: depth interviews where I speak to guests, we learn, we

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Speaker 2: have some fun, and we get into the nitty gritty

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Speaker 2: of what can make parenting absolutely incredible and make families flourish.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 2: Today's guest is Professor Wendy Rolnick, a mother, an author,

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Speaker 2: and we're kind of kindred spirits and that we both

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Speaker 2: work to help build happy families. And our area of

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Speaker 2: research is very very closely aligned. Professor Rolnick's book The

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Speaker 2: Psychology of Parental Control is one of my favorites, and

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Speaker 2: Wendy is based out of the psychology department of Clark

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Speaker 2: University in Massachusetts.

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Speaker 3: She's taught there for nearly three decades.

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Speaker 2: So I began by asking her about what she loves

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Speaker 2: about her university and what family life.

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Speaker 3: Looks like for her.

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Speaker 1: It's a great little university because it is a research university,

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Speaker 1: but it's small and it has a very petent community.

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Speaker 1: It also has a big social justice component to it,

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Speaker 1: and our motto is Challenge convention, Change our world, so

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Speaker 1: it encourages people to think outside the box, which is

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Speaker 1: which a really nice thing. Family wise. I have two

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Speaker 1: almost grown children, two daughters, one twenty seven and one thirty,

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Speaker 1: and actually have one of my daughters with me now

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Speaker 1: during the pandemic who's between things and so patter here

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Speaker 1: for a while, which has been which has been very

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Speaker 1: nice and kind of a silver lining to all of this. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've been married for thirty five years and parenting for

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Speaker 1: thirty And you said.

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Speaker 2: You've got two almost grown children, but then you said

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Speaker 2: they're twenty seven and thirty.

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Speaker 3: So when are they actually grown?

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Speaker 1: That's a good question. They'll always be my children and

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Speaker 1: so they'll never be grown in my eyes, and I

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Speaker 1: guess in a certain way both they're forging their own paths.

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Speaker 2: Wendy, we met at a conference. I think it was

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Speaker 2: about three or four years ago. It was in British Columbia.

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Speaker 2: We were saying at this gorgeous hotel on the water

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Speaker 2: in Victoria, and I think it was about twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 2: You and I had a great conversation about our mutual

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Speaker 2: interest in raising happy families, and we both have a

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Speaker 2: very strong interest in a theory in psychology known as

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Speaker 2: self determination theory, and it's something that I've really built

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Speaker 2: much of what I share with parents around. You've done

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Speaker 2: a recent study built on self determination theory, and you

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Speaker 2: found that parents who were really doing well with their families,

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Speaker 2: And in fact, you looked at families across the board,

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Speaker 2: so you weren't sort of saying, well, these ones are

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Speaker 2: doing well and these ones aren't. You just got random

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Speaker 2: families to come into the lab and fill in some

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Speaker 2: surveys and then go away and do some things. You

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Speaker 2: got them to do a handful of things, and in particularly,

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Speaker 2: you found that when they did three things successfully, their

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Speaker 2: families were happier and their children are more likely to thrive.

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Speaker 2: So I wonder if you can step me through what

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Speaker 2: those three things were and what they actually look like

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Speaker 2: in practice from an applied you know, this is what

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Speaker 2: parents need to do to do these three things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we've actually entered into the world of intervention, so

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Speaker 1: we can tell you about how we've tried to help

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Speaker 1: people move toward these three things. But yes, the three

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Speaker 1: things are. One is and I know you know a

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Speaker 1: lot about this, is support for autonomy. That is helping

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Speaker 1: children to feel that they are kind of like behind

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Speaker 1: their actions, they're the owner of their actions. They're not

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Speaker 1: being pushed and coerced. Because we know that when people

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Speaker 1: feel like they're being pushed and coerced that they are

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Speaker 1: less happy and they're less likely to persevere in what

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Speaker 1: they're doing and be motivated and follow their passions. So

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Speaker 1: when you support autonomy and help children feel this way,

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Speaker 1: you can do a number of things. And we've looked

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Speaker 1: at different strategies that parents can use. So one is

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Speaker 1: that you It all kind of starts with taking children's perspectives,

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Speaker 1: thinking about where where are they coming from, how are

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Speaker 1: they thinking about what they're doing, and trying to get

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Speaker 1: into their heads and understand their perspectives.

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Speaker 3: And that's really hot.

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Speaker 2: You get into the morning rush and the morning routine

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Speaker 2: and you've got to get the children out the door,

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Speaker 2: and everything's going a little bit crazy in Haywire, and

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Speaker 2: the children are non compliant, they don't want to get

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Speaker 2: up and go to school, and they're feeling miserable or

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Speaker 2: a bit lousy. And we don't tend to take that

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Speaker 2: perspective in that moment because we're also running light. And

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Speaker 2: if we don't get out the door on tom we're

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Speaker 2: we're going to miss the lots at the bottom of

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Speaker 2: the street. And if we don't get through those lots

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Speaker 2: at exactly seven fourteen, that means that we're going to

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Speaker 2: be stuck until seven twenty and then we're going to

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Speaker 2: get the peak how traffic that's six minutes is, you know,

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Speaker 2: it makes all the difference. And so we have we

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Speaker 2: feel a lot of pressure ourselves, and we tend to

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Speaker 2: transfer that into the family environment, right, and then we

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Speaker 2: take away their autonomy and start to control them absolutely.

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Speaker 1: And we've done some studies exactly on this stress makes

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Speaker 1: it really hard to be autonomy supportive. But when you

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Speaker 1: think about it, if you can take the perspective of

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Speaker 1: the child and just give them the sense that you

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Speaker 1: understand where they're coming from, they're going to be much

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Speaker 1: more open to all the other things that you want

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Speaker 1: them to do. So if you can just say, I

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Speaker 1: understand that you'd much rather be listening to your iPad

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Speaker 1: and playing on it and not getting ready and it

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Speaker 1: feels really pushy to for have me start do this,

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Speaker 1: you telling you to do it now, they'll be much

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Speaker 1: more open to hearing well, but here's what we need

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Speaker 1: to do. They hear you better when they know that

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Speaker 1: you ta can take their perspective, understand them and providing

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Speaker 1: them a little bit of empathy for where they're coming from.

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Speaker 3: I say this to parents all the time.

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Speaker 2: When you listen to a podcast or when you're sitting

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Speaker 2: in a room with somebody like you or I and

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Speaker 2: we're talking to you about that kind of thing, it

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Speaker 2: all makes sense, right. We think, oh, yeah, I'm supposed

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Speaker 2: to take a breath and just connect with their emotion

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Speaker 2: and say, well, you're really struggling and you just wish

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Speaker 2: that this didn't have to be this way, don't you

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Speaker 2: Like that makes sense when we're having this conversation, But

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Speaker 2: tomorrow morning, when somebody's going through it, that's the last

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Speaker 2: thing you want to do. Like, it's exactly the opposite

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Speaker 2: of what you want to do, because you're feeling the

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Speaker 2: stress and pressure and you want to get that forward momentum.

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Speaker 2: You don't want to sort of put the brakes on

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Speaker 2: and sit down and hold the hand and look into

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Speaker 2: their eyes and say you're having a tough time this morning,

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Speaker 2: aren't you right?

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Speaker 1: Right? And so there are things you can do when

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Speaker 1: you're not in those very stressful moments that might make

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Speaker 1: a difference for those stressful moments. So, for example, if

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Speaker 1: you're having you know this is if you're had this

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Speaker 1: problem every morning, when there isn't a problem going on

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Speaker 1: and when it's a quiet time, you can sit down

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Speaker 1: together and talk this out. So part of autonomy support

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Speaker 1: is taking kids perspectives. Part of it is giving them choices,

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Speaker 1: Part of it is problem solving together. And so you

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Speaker 1: want to sit down and problem solve together and say,

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Speaker 1: you know, mornings have been really rough. I know they're

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Speaker 1: hard on you, I know it. It stinks when you

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Speaker 1: have to hear me nag you in the morning, you

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Speaker 1: just got up. Let's put our heads together to figure

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Speaker 1: out what we can do. What are your thoughts. So

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Speaker 1: a ton of support means getting kids input into problems

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Speaker 1: that you're having and problem solving together. So yes, it's

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Speaker 1: true at that moment that might not work. But if

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Speaker 1: the child comes up with some great idea as well,

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Speaker 1: you could wake me up five minutes earlier, or you

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Speaker 1: could just knock at my door really quietly and let

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Speaker 1: me know it's time. So you come up with this together.

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Speaker 1: There Again, when you don't feel like somebody's yelling at

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Speaker 1: you and nagging at you and coming and imposing themselves

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Speaker 1: upon you, you're much more likely to understand, you know

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Speaker 1: why you're doing it, and be in this together and

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Speaker 1: problem solve together.

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Speaker 3: I love it.

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Speaker 2: We've got this. First thing is autonomy support. But there

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Speaker 2: are three of these. And by the way, I think

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Speaker 2: that at least for me, as I've watched how my

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Speaker 2: parenting has changed over the last couple of decades raising

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Speaker 2: my six kids, this for me is the lynchpin like

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Speaker 2: stepping away from control and stepping towards supporting autonomy or

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Speaker 2: empowering our children to find the solutions that are inside

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Speaker 2: themselves to do well.

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Speaker 3: That seems to be it.

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Speaker 2: But there's two other things that you highlight that families

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Speaker 2: that do best also emphasize, and those two things are

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Speaker 2: structure and involvement. And in your research you found that

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Speaker 2: this leads to the best outcomes comparatively compared to families

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Speaker 2: that aren't doing this. So autonomy support, we've sort of

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Speaker 2: talked about that briefly, But what a structure and involvement.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So structure is really connected to having kids have

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Speaker 1: a sense of competence. So we put it into place

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Speaker 1: to help kids feel like they know how to succeed

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Speaker 1: in what you're asking them to do, or they know

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Speaker 1: how to succeed in the world. And so structure is

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Speaker 1: really the information you need to be successful. And what

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Speaker 1: you do is you set up the environment to increase

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Speaker 1: the probability that kids are going to feel competent. And

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Speaker 1: you can do that by having just really clear expectations

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Speaker 1: this is what we need to be doing, this is

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Speaker 1: what I expect, and guidelines for how to do that,

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Speaker 1: feedback about how you're doing. So if the you know

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Speaker 1: the job is to to clean your room, you know

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Speaker 1: what's expected how often what it means to clean your room.

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Speaker 1: You know what to do, so that then you can

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Speaker 1: children can plan their behavior and say, oh, I know,

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Speaker 1: I know how to be successful here. So that's that's

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Speaker 1: really important. The trick is you want to connect that

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Speaker 1: with autonomy support. You don't want just to impose structure

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Speaker 1: on kids and say this is how we're doing it.

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Speaker 1: These are the rules, this is the schedule. Yeah, we've

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Speaker 1: heard a lot during the pandemic about you have to

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Speaker 1: have a schedule, but kids can have input into that

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Speaker 1: schedule and feel like you together you own some of

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Speaker 1: these guidelines and rules, and that's when it's they're going

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Speaker 1: to be both feeling competent, like this is what I

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Speaker 1: need to do, but also feeling I mean you use

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Speaker 1: the word empowered, which is a good word, that you

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Speaker 1: have some ownership of this and it's not just something

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Speaker 1: that's coming from above.

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Speaker 2: And so the oddea here from what I've written in

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Speaker 2: your research and other researchers who have played in this

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Speaker 2: area is ideally, as we create a sense of structure,

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Speaker 2: it's not just about the routine and the schedule. It's

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Speaker 2: actually it's about the way we have small winds in

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Speaker 2: our lives doing all of the things that matter. But

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Speaker 2: the way that we create the structure ideally will be

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Speaker 2: in an autonomy supportive way.

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Speaker 3: So we'll sit down with that. You want to say,

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Speaker 3: we have a little bit of a problem.

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Speaker 2: You've probably noticed this is happening in our evenings, this

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Speaker 2: is happening on ours Saturday mornings or our sundays are

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Speaker 2: just not working. They're not getting the quality family time

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Speaker 2: that we want. What can we do together to make

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Speaker 2: this work? And then in a supportive, non controlling way,

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Speaker 2: you develop a sort of a sense of structure. Or

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Speaker 2: you know, we're paying all this money for piano lessons,

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Speaker 2: but it seems like you just don't really get excited

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Speaker 2: about practicing until twenty minutes before we have to run

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Speaker 2: out the door to see the teacher.

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Speaker 3: And this is not working.

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Speaker 2: So it's really about having these conversations and bringing the

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Speaker 2: children in so that they can solve their own problems

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Speaker 2: and create those structures and supports.

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Speaker 3: Is that how you're describing it.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it's really well said. Sometimes when we describe

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Speaker 1: this to parents, they say, oh, well, what if they

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Speaker 1: want to get up at twelve twelve in the afternoon,

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Speaker 1: that's not acceptable. It's okay for you as a parent

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Speaker 1: to sort of have your guidelines within which you are working,

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Speaker 1: and you're able to say, well that you came up

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Speaker 1: where this isn't quite going to work because blah blah blah,

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Speaker 1: but here's some guidelines within which we can choose. You know,

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Speaker 1: any time between eight and ten is okay to walk

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Speaker 1: the dog. So what do you choose? And you give

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Speaker 1: a reason for why twelve o'clock's not going to work.

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Speaker 1: So it doesn't mean that you're relinquishing your role as

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Speaker 1: an authority. There are some things that need to be

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Speaker 1: decided within certain limits, but you can still have a

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Speaker 1: sense of input and problem solving together within those guidelines.

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Speaker 2: And I found that work regardless of whether a child

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Speaker 2: is two or twenty two. In fact, my wife, I'm

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Speaker 2: not going to give away her age, but you know

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Speaker 2: she's in her forties now, and we just had a

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Speaker 2: recent conversation about the potential of a renovation at home,

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Speaker 2: and it was the same conversation, so what do you

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Speaker 2: want to do? Ah, that sounds like it would be

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Speaker 2: really great. I wish we could do that, but we

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Speaker 2: need to look at the budget and not not that

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Speaker 2: I'm the person that makes the decisions. It's a joint thing.

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Speaker 2: But ultimately it was still a conversation where what she

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Speaker 2: wanted to do with this renovation was well beyond what

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Speaker 2: was within what the bank was allowing us to go

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Speaker 2: and do. And so I had to say to her,

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Speaker 2: how do you think that's going to go if we

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Speaker 2: go to the bank and we say we want that

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Speaker 2: much rather than this munch and the bank's providing the limits.

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Speaker 2: But it's about that conversation, and then Kylie was able

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Speaker 2: to say, oh, well, I guess I guess I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to have this accessory, and I'm not going to

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Speaker 2: have this extension, and I'm not going to have this

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Speaker 2: do dad. Whether we're talking to children or adults, it

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Speaker 2: seems like that process is very much let me listen.

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Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, you still get

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Speaker 2: to be the parent, right you're not raising the white

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Speaker 2: flag and surrendering and saying, well, whatever you want, kids,

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Speaker 2: I'm just going to let you create your own structures

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Speaker 2: and do it all yourself. It's very much a partnership

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Speaker 2: and it has to work for the family exactly.

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Speaker 1: And one other benefit that maybe Kylie doesn't need but

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Speaker 1: children need, is that the art of negotiation is a

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Speaker 1: wonderful thing for children to learn. I think we've had

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Speaker 1: this idea that you should be like, once you say something,

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Speaker 1: that's it and it can't change and you don't get

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Speaker 1: children's input. You have to be consistent. Well, you can

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Speaker 1: have a negotiation within these guidelines, and that's a skill

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Speaker 1: that kids really need. It turns out from research shows

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Speaker 1: that they don't learn it from their peers. Their peers

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Speaker 1: have no investment in making sure that they are good negotiators.

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Speaker 1: You learn it from your parents, where they say, oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to give a little and you're going to

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Speaker 1: give a literal and here we can meet somewhere in

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Speaker 1: the middle. So that's an added benefit of taking this

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Speaker 1: approach as well.

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Speaker 2: So we've got autonomy support, where we're really saying to

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Speaker 2: the children, I want to work with you as you

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Speaker 2: become volitional and control your own life, with me just

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Speaker 2: providing some gentle guidance to keep you inter propriate boundaries.

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Speaker 2: We've got structure, which means we're going to set things

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Speaker 2: up so that our children can feel competent. I feel

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Speaker 2: like they're having small wins and have a sense that

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Speaker 2: they're in control of their environment, they're able to develop

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Speaker 2: a sense of mastery. And the third one was involvement.

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Speaker 2: You found that families that are doing really well have

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Speaker 2: high levels of involvement compared to families that aren't doing

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Speaker 2: so well.

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Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, whether it's involvement in school, or it's involvement

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Speaker 1: in more generally, in asking about what's going on and

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Speaker 1: doing things together as a family, doing family routines, all

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Speaker 1: of that really makes the difference in terms of kids

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Speaker 1: feelings secure and connected.

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Speaker 2: I want to go back to autonomy support for a minute.

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Speaker 2: This is I think, as I said before, this is

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Speaker 2: to me the lynchpin of what parents who are really

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Speaker 2: getting it right really focus on. They step away from control.

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Speaker 2: So when I talk to parents about autonomy support, because

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Speaker 2: I have stepped out of the research thing and I

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Speaker 2: don't have to use all the academic woods, I tend

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Speaker 2: to use woods that are maybe a little bit more

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Speaker 2: practical for parents to say, oh, I've just got to

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Speaker 2: do A, B and C. So I talk about it

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Speaker 2: in terms of the three ease of effective discipline. I

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Speaker 2: talk about exploring, explaining, and empowering.

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Speaker 3: So when we.

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Speaker 2: Explore, we do that first step that you said where

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Speaker 2: we try to see the world through their eyes. We say, why,

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Speaker 2: you're really struggling with this. This is a really hard thing.

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Speaker 2: You don't like what I've asked you to do, or

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Speaker 2: whatever it might be, and then we spend a little

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Speaker 2: bit of time explaining so, well, it's important that you

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Speaker 2: understand why this matters. You know, we have screen time

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Speaker 2: limits because if you spend too much time on screens,

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Speaker 2: then A B and C it will occur.

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Speaker 3: You know, we don't have enough time to be together.

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Speaker 2: There's an opportunity cost where you're not doing the other

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Speaker 2: things that matter are so much in your life, like

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Speaker 2: getting your school work done, or being physically fit, or

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Speaker 2: doing your music practice, or being a part of our family.

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Speaker 3: And then we empower them.

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Speaker 2: We say, so, if I'm getting it right, this is

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Speaker 2: really important to you because of A, B and C,

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Speaker 2: but de E and F for the reasons that I'm struggling.

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Speaker 2: So what are we going to do together? That's kind

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Speaker 2: of the autonomy support process the way I describe it.

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Speaker 2: What do you think is the hardest part of actually

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Speaker 2: doing this without children? So when I was looking at

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Speaker 2: your research, you talked about parents becoming stuck in unhelpful

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Speaker 2: patents that kind of lead to pressure and control and

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Speaker 2: palace struggles. So what are those patents that lead those

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Speaker 2: palace struggles and how do parents get better at autonomy support?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question, and I

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Speaker 1: would just add to autonomies before we sometimes forget that

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Speaker 1: autonis are just isn't just about the discipline and about

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Speaker 1: the way we deal with problems, but it's also supporting kids' initiations,

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Speaker 1: you know, for things that they're interested in and passionate about,

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Speaker 1: so of being kind of right behind them rather than

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Speaker 1: in front of them, and sort of supporting what is

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Speaker 1: fun and exciting for kids. My answer to your question

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Speaker 1: about what gets in the way was very much based

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Speaker 1: on my own experience with my kids. So I'm someone

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Speaker 1: who's been studying this since well before I had children,

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Speaker 1: and I would watch parents in our studies, you know,

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Speaker 1: we had My my first studies were with babies. We

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Speaker 1: were with twelve month olds and moms interacting with their

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Speaker 1: babies and the moms taking the hands, the kid's hands

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Speaker 1: and putting them, you know, moving them, and you know,

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Speaker 1: saying do it like this, and they were so invested

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Speaker 1: in their kids doing well that they were very Some

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Speaker 1: of them were very controlling, and I looked at them.

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Speaker 1: I would never I would never do that. But when

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Speaker 1: you had your own kids, you realize this investment in

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Speaker 1: them doing well is so strong. You don't want them

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Speaker 1: to fail you You love them, You want them to succeed.

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Speaker 1: You want them to be the best that they can be.

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Speaker 1: They want to want to have every opportunity, And that feeling,

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Speaker 1: it for me was so visceral. It would be like

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Speaker 1: I would feel it in my in my in my

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Speaker 1: heart and in my stomach, and it would make you

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Speaker 1: want to impose your your what you you know is

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Speaker 1: going to be the best thing. You know, don't wear

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Speaker 1: that dress, nobody's going to like it, you know, or

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Speaker 1: do your homework this way or whatever it was. You

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Speaker 1: just really want them to succeed. And so I realized,

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Speaker 1: you know, I started to do a bunch of research

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Speaker 1: on just this issue that we get. We're really invested it.

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Speaker 1: Not because we're bad people or we're parents get such

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Speaker 1: a bad rap sometimes that they're egotistical and narcissistic. No,

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Speaker 1: all parents have this feeling that they want their kids

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Speaker 1: to succeed because they love them. Nature gave that to us.

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Speaker 1: So that we could do all this sacrificing for our kids.

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Speaker 1: It's and we feel it as love. And so when

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Speaker 1: we get into this place where we get hooked into

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Speaker 1: I know the best thing, and I can't afford to

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Speaker 1: have my child fail because of our own biology, but

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Speaker 1: also because of the competition that's all around us. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the kids are just competing all the time, and that

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Speaker 1: hooks us in. And I think that's when we get

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Speaker 1: really controlling and pushy and pressuring our kids to do

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Speaker 1: things when in our hearts maybe we know that that's

403
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Speaker 1: not the best thing to do. So people who who

404
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,240
Speaker 1: really like this theory and would love your three e'es

405
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Speaker 1: find themselves being really pushy and controlling. So and then

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Speaker 1: you're in this power struggle because our natural tendency when

407
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Speaker 1: we're controlled is to push back. We're trying to get

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Speaker 1: our autonomy back, and sometimes we do the opposite, doesn't

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Speaker 1: get our autonomy back, But when we feel controlled, we

410
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Speaker 1: push back. So then you get into these power struggles

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Speaker 1: where I don't want to wear that dress, but that

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Speaker 1: dress is kids are going to like you if you

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Speaker 1: wear that dress, and that's going to be the best dress.

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Speaker 1: And you're back and forth, and you're thinking, how did

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Speaker 1: I get How did I get in this place in

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Speaker 1: the first place.

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Speaker 3: I'm really interested.

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Speaker 2: I'd love to go through the developmental progression just briefly

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Speaker 2: on this. So you talked about parents who are controlling

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Speaker 2: with the infants, you know, the twelve month or right

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Speaker 2: a month old children, and with the toddlers. And it's

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Speaker 2: not because the child is now necessarily doing the wrong

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Speaker 2: thing quote unquote wrong thing, you know, being challenging, because

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Speaker 2: at twelve months old they're not going to be particularly

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Speaker 2: challenging or eighteen months. Like you said, this well intentioned

426
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Speaker 2: desire for them to do well. But what did you

427
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Speaker 2: find in terms of outcomes when you compare the children

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Speaker 2: who are being controlled even as infants and toddlers by

429
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Speaker 2: well intentioned parents who just want their children to be

430
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Speaker 2: really good because you know, you're in the psychology department

431
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Speaker 2: and you're being observed by this researcher, and you want

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Speaker 2: your children to be in front of the curve, be

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Speaker 2: better than all the other kids. You want them to excel,

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Speaker 2: and so you dive in and start showing them how

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Speaker 2: to do it. I mean, it makes sense that parents

436
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Speaker 2: would be controlling, especially in that situation. But obviously there

437
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,000
Speaker 2: were some parents who were and some who weren't. What

438
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,880
Speaker 2: were the outcomes for the children in terms of their

439
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,400
Speaker 2: motivation to participate in the activity or the curiosity about

440
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 2: the activity?

441
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,120
Speaker 3: You know, how far did you study them? What did

442
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 3: you find?

443
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 2: Just as a general summary of all of those various

444
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,120
Speaker 2: studies that you've done in that area.

445
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:58,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, in those first studies where we actually just gave

446
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,480
Speaker 1: the parents it a task with their children and we said,

447
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:04,199
Speaker 1: just sit next to him while he plays with it,

448
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:08,720
Speaker 1: we didn't. We weren't even pushing them to do something. Uh.

449
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,199
Speaker 1: And some parents, like you said solve the problem for

450
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,719
Speaker 1: the child and move their arms and were very directive,

451
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,360
Speaker 1: and other parents were sort of waiting, you know, stepping

452
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 1: back and waiting to be needed and allowing their children

453
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,920
Speaker 1: to explore a little bit and things like that. And

454
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:30,200
Speaker 1: then what we did was we had the children introduced

455
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 1: the children to a kind of problem solving toy working

456
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:37,040
Speaker 1: with an experimenter, and mom was sitting on the side

457
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:42,280
Speaker 1: and just asked, sort of said make this work. So

458
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 1: and we looked at how persistent the kids were at

459
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,239
Speaker 1: trying to solve the problems, and we found that the

460
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 1: ones who the children of the parents who were more

461
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,560
Speaker 1: controlling and more solving problems for them were less motivated

462
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:56,880
Speaker 1: when they were kind of on their own to try

463
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 1: to solve this problem. So that was a really important finding.

464
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 1: And even at twelve months. Then we followed those kids

465
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 1: up at twenty months, and the kids, again, the kids

466
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,399
Speaker 1: are the more controlling parents were not only less motivated

467
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 1: to work on independent tasks, but they were less competent

468
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,440
Speaker 1: at them in solving those tasks. So it did look

469
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 1: like there are some outcomes of solving problems for kids

470
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:24,879
Speaker 1: and being really controlling.

471
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:25,919
Speaker 3: That's fascinating.

472
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:30,160
Speaker 2: So if we were to bring that into the school years,

473
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 2: Let's say we've got our children who are now in

474
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 2: their last three or four years of high school and

475
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 2: they've got parents who are controlling them and saying, you

476
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 2: need to study harder, you need to do this. These

477
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:41,959
Speaker 2: are the grades that you need, otherwise you're not going

478
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 2: to get into the university degree that's important to us.

479
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,160
Speaker 2: We've decided together, I've decided for you. Maybe you've decided

480
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 2: yourself that you want to be a lawyer, or you

481
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:51,680
Speaker 2: want to be a vet, or you want to be

482
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 2: a dentist, or any of these courses that are very

483
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 2: very very competitive to get into when the child, the

484
00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 2: student is feeling controlled, or maybe it's a ten year

485
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 2: who wants to be on the representative soccer team, or

486
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 2: maybe it's the twelve year old who wants to win

487
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:11,199
Speaker 2: the Aestedford, whatever it might be. And let's argue to

488
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 2: keep it really balanced that the parents are doing the

489
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 2: best that they can. They're not being those really autocratic

490
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 2: parents who are saying you've got to, you've got to.

491
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 2: The children actually have some degree of desire here. The

492
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 2: kids actually do want to get into those university courses

493
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 2: or get onto the team, or play well in Theirtedford.

494
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 2: So the children are balanced and healthy and wanting to

495
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,239
Speaker 2: do well, but there's still a really strong push from

496
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 2: the parents. You haven't done your practice today. You didn't

497
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 2: look like you're tried hard in practice. I haven't seen

498
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 2: you study for the last three days. You're not going

499
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 2: to get the grade. What does that research with toddlers

500
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,199
Speaker 2: and infants tell us about those children when they're fifteen

501
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 2: years down the track or ten years down the track,

502
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 2: and is there other research specifically about those age groups

503
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 2: in those kinds of context, and what does that tell.

504
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 1: Us yes, there is some research following up kids into

505
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,439
Speaker 1: high school and and there is some continuity there in

506
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 1: terms of kids who had very controlling parents not being

507
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 1: less autonomously motivated. And it might come out in things

508
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 1: like choice points where you have the choice to do

509
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,880
Speaker 1: something more challenging or do something easier, you might choose

510
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 1: the easier thing, or it might be you're less likely

511
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 1: to want to go on in school or something like that.

512
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 1: So it may be while you have that pressure on you,

513
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: you are doing some achieving, but when you're left at

514
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 1: the place where you're trying to figure out what it

515
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: really interests, you know, maybe finding more that you're not

516
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 1: sure what you're interested in. You've been sort of on

517
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: this path for so long, going to the next thing.

518
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 1: We're doing it for the next thing. We're doing it

519
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: for the next thing. Do your work so that you

520
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 1: can get into the next thing, but you're not really

521
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: building upon your own interests and passions. And it's kind

522
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 1: of interesting. When I was writing my first book, I

523
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: looked at a lot of the writings, yes.

524
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 2: I'm holding it up right now, The Psychology of Friend

525
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 2: of Control, it's one of my favorite parents books.

526
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,199
Speaker 1: I looked at what Olympians said about their parents. And

527
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 1: we have this idea that Olympians would have really pressuring

528
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 1: control and pushing parents, and some of them do, and

529
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 1: and those are the ones that we hear some stories

530
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 1: about where things don't go well. Most of them said,

531
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,479
Speaker 1: my parents were just right behind me. They were not

532
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 1: pushing me. They saw my passion and they were there

533
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 1: to give me what I needed to pursue it. But

534
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 1: they stood behind me, right behind me, not in front

535
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: of me, pushing me. My daughter says that my daughter

536
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 1: was a tennis player in high school and in college

537
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 1: had a coach who was just very right behind her.

538
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 1: He would say, he would she would call him after

539
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 1: a match. She would and he would say had to

540
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: do and she would say I won or I lost

541
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 1: in either way. And then if she said I lost,

542
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 1: you would say did you have fun? And she would

543
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,120
Speaker 1: she would say yes, and he would say, dyna mate,

544
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 1: and he said that. And I think it's quite clear

545
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 1: that if that had been if we had poshed, If

546
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 1: we had poshed, she never would have pursued it. It was

547
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 1: her passion. And you know, you can get some achievement,

548
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 1: but you don't get a passion unless it's in the person,

549
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: and you can definitely squash a passion by putting a

550
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: lot of extrinsic pushes onto it.

551
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 2: So there's two things that I want to quickly mention

552
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:29,959
Speaker 2: in relation to what you've just highlighted. The first is

553
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 2: a research paper that came out, I think probably about

554
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 2: two or three years ago now that looked at student

555
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,199
Speaker 2: athletes and these were in high school. This was not,

556
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 2: you know, young adults, this was teenagers, and it was

557
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 2: actually looking at the likelihood of cheating drug cheats.

558
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 3: Particularly.

559
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 2: What they found was that it wasn't about the child

560
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 2: and their attitudes, and it wasn't about the coach and

561
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 2: their attitudes. It was about the parent and their attitudes.

562
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 2: And the parents who were highly controlling and really pushing

563
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 2: hard they were the ones that had children who are

564
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 2: much more likely to make unethical choices and unethical decisions.

565
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 2: It's almost like that extrinsic control, specifically from the parent.

566
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,479
Speaker 2: I want to do so well for my parent, seemed

567
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 2: to be some sort of a predictor that led to

568
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 2: less positive choices on the part of the athlete to

569
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 2: excel to do well, Whereas when the parents were less

570
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,199
Speaker 2: pushy and said we're here to support you, not to

571
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 2: control you. The children tended to make better decisions. That's

572
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 2: the first point. The second one was just on your

573
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 2: daughter and her tennis experience. Because we have six children,

574
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 2: and because of my background, I get to experiment a

575
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 2: lot with my children right and everything I get wrong

576
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:37,640
Speaker 2: with the first few, I get to try to get

577
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 2: right with the last ones. We decided we just keep

578
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 2: having kids until we started to get it right.

579
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: That's great.

580
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 2: And when it comes to music, we've always loved music

581
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 2: and wanted our children to have an appreciation and an

582
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 2: ability when it comes to music. What we found with

583
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 2: our first two children was we would tell them to

584
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 2: go and practice the piano, go and practice the guitar,

585
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 2: or go and practice or practice whatever for thirty minutes.

586
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 2: Now off you go, go and do your practice. You've

587
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 2: got thirty minutes going to get it done. We found

588
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 2: that they watched the clock for thirty minutes. We found

589
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 2: that the quality of their practice was poor, and both

590
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 2: of those first two children dropped out of music. They

591
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 2: didn't appreciate, they didn't like it, they didn't have the discipline,

592
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 2: they didn't want it. We thought that there was something

593
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,959
Speaker 2: faulty about their character. We thought, well, they're just faulty children.

594
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 2: We clearly you know it wasn't ours. It was the children,

595
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 2: for sure. But we changed our approach with children three

596
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 2: and four and so on, and our approach with our

597
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 2: subsequent children has been, Gee, I love hearing you play

598
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 2: that guitar. Oh when you sing, the whole house feels different.

599
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 2: It's been a while since I've heard you on the piano.

600
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 2: How are you going with that song? And those gentle,

601
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 2: supportive prompts lead the children back to their instruments, and

602
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 2: they don't look at the clock. They'll sit down and

603
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 2: play for as long as they feel inclined to play.

604
00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 2: And sometimes it will only be three or four minutes.

605
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 2: Sometimes it'll be an hour or an hour and a half.

606
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 2: And their music has become a source of joy because

607
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 2: there's autonomy, support rather than control.

608
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: That's a wonderful, wonderful story. Wonderful story. So many people

609
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: have the stories of the piano lessons that went away,

610
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 1: and so it's really good to hear that story.

611
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the opposite of Tiger Mum.

612
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 2: I remember hearing about the Tiger Mum by Amy Chow

613
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 2: and how she sat on the seat and made her

614
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 2: daughter cry and cry and cry for hours, but she

615
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 2: wasn't getting up until she finished. And yes, her daughter

616
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 2: became you know, the equivalent of the concert pianist or whatever.

617
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 2: But there was no joy in it, and she wanted

618
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 2: to stop. And I just I don't want my kids

619
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 2: to feel like that. I want them to love what

620
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 2: they do. Now, I asked you what sort of leads

621
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 2: to these power struggles? And we've talked about that at length,

622
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 2: and I asked, also, how can parents get out of

623
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 2: those power struggles? It seems like we need to try

624
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 2: to be autonomy supportive by having conversations out of the

625
00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 2: moment and problem solving together.

626
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: Sure. Yeah, I think when a little of it is

627
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: self reflective, for me, it feels visceral when you feel

628
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: that sense that I'm I'm I'm feeling really pressured to push,

629
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: I'm feeling you know. I then to sort of to

630
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: be a little self perfected to say, where is that

631
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 1: coming from? Why am I feeling that way? What? You know,

632
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: what are really the risks of allowing my child to

633
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: uh not play the piano today or this week? Or

634
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: what are the risks of that? What where is that

635
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: coming from? And sort of be interested in it and

636
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 1: realize it's just a feeling. It's a feeling. It's an

637
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: uncomfortable feeling sometimes, but you don't have to necessarily act

638
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 1: on it, and you can sort of take a step

639
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: back and say, you know, what would be what are

640
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 1: the consequences if I allow this or I ask the opinion?

641
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: And of course that's easier said than done when you're

642
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 1: in a stressed moment. But but but sometimes if you're

643
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: you know, you can can think about what really are

644
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 1: the consequences here and how can I make a better

645
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 1: decision or the best decision in terms of the situation.

646
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 1: And I think part of it also lies for me

647
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 1: in having faith in this and a theory of why

648
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 1: people do what they do. And in this case, what

649
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 1: we do when our intervention is is sort of give

650
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: people a theory so that they can have some faith

651
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: in it. If you really believe that people will follow

652
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: their passions, if they are supported in autonomously, then you'll

653
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 1: be able to say, Okay, you know the guitar wasn't

654
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 1: for you, and you'll find something else. But you have

655
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: to have that faith that people will find their interests

656
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: if you allow that to happen, and people really will

657
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: do better if they're supported in their autonomy, because I

658
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 1: think what happens sometimes is you say, oh God, if

659
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: I if I don't make her take that ap horse,

660
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: and if I don't make her study right now. Now

661
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 1: you know it's going to be bad for her, But

662
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: you still have to have faith that if I solve this

663
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: problem for her, if I control exactly what she's doing,

664
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: that it won't be such a good thing in the

665
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: long term, because in the short term it might feel

666
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: like it is. And so having faith in a theory

667
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: of human nature and is for me really important because

668
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 1: you get tested as a parent all the time.

669
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 2: I love what you said there, Wendy, particularly this idea

670
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 2: that controlling parenting actually comes from fear. It's almost like

671
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 2: we're we're fearful that things are not going to be okay.

672
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 2: We're fearful that everything's going to go wrong, and therefore

673
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 2: we step in with control because we feel like it's

674
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 2: our duty.

675
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 3: To fix it and we have the power to do so.

676
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 3: And what I'm.

677
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 2: Hearing you say really clearly is if we step back

678
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 2: and provide the right environment for our children where they

679
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 2: feel safe, we're not raising the white flag and saying, oh, well, fine,

680
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 2: if you don't want to swim, if you don't want

681
00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 2: to play tennis, if you don't want to learn how

682
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 2: to play the musical instrument, We're just not going to

683
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 2: do anything for you anymore.

684
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 3: And you know you're going to end up in your

685
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 3: room and you're going to be staring at a screen

686
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 3: for the.

687
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 2: Rest of your life. That's not going to work out

688
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 2: very well. That's kind of that fear paradigm. But instead

689
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,439
Speaker 2: to look at our children and say, well, I guess

690
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 2: that didn't work out. You let us know what you

691
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 2: think might work out, and we'll support you in that instead,

692
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 2: and then step back with the trust that in the

693
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 2: right environment they actually will exactly.

694
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 1: Trust is a really good word, trust in your kids

695
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,280
Speaker 1: and also trust in the developmental process.

696
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 2: If you created a simple list of outcomes that we

697
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 2: see in children who have parents who are autonomy supportive

698
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 2: and providing structure and building involvement, what would the evidence

699
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 2: point to just that, You know, what does the science

700
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 2: say happens when we do this stuff consistently?

701
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,320
Speaker 3: How do our kids turn out great?

702
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: So kids a time whose parents are more autonomy sort

703
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: of will be more self regulating and their behavior, whether

704
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 1: it's in school, they'll be more likely to be uh,

705
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 1: more spontaneously engaging, and less likely to have to be pushed.

706
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 1: They're going to be they're going to be more self regulating.

707
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 1: People find that autonomy support is associated with better self

708
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 1: esteem because when people are solving problems for you all

709
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:17,919
Speaker 1: the time, you're thinking, well, I must may not very

710
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: good at this, So so building self esteem, being more

711
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: active in their coping. So when they have setbacks, my

712
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: parents are more tiomy supportive, the kids will be more

713
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 1: actively trying to solve the problems and engaging and engaging

714
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 1: them rather than throwing the the bad exam into the

715
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,320
Speaker 1: garbage can and never looking at it again.

716
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,240
Speaker 3: So it's kind of like they're becoming more resilient.

717
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 2: It's it's like it's a resilience booster, it's a it's

718
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 2: a growth strategy exactly.

719
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 1: And also feeling more in control of their successes and

720
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:58,720
Speaker 1: failures that they can have an impact. And finally also

721
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: feeling more secure their attachment. So when parents are trying

722
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 1: to sort of kids feel more like they you know

723
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: that they're they can count on their parents to be

724
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 1: there when they need them, and more secure and that

725
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 1: enables you to then explore your world a little bit

726
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 1: more with this backdrop of support.

727
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 3: I love that.

728
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 2: You know, when I decided to step out of university,

729
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,319
Speaker 2: I've been working as a lecturer, I'd got my postgraduate

730
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 2: qualifications with my doctorate, I've been working as a researcher

731
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 2: and as a lecturer. And I remember, I mean, by

732
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 2: this point, I'm in my mid thirties, right, But I

733
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 2: remember being so nervous as I made this decision that

734
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:42,720
Speaker 2: I wanted to step away from that and start talking

735
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 2: to parents on a full time basis and write books

736
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 2: and that kind of thing. I remember talking with my

737
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 2: wife and I even got in touch with my parents,

738
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 2: and none of the three people that I spoke to

739
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 2: said anything negative or necessarily positive. What they each did

740
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 2: instead was they supported my time, and they gave me

741
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 2: the confidence to back myself, knowing that I just I

742
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 2: had their support. Okay, Well, if that's what you feel

743
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 2: good about, we support you, we encourage you. And that's

744
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 2: what actually gave me the courage to step out and

745
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 2: do it. I think if my parents had been controlling,

746
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 2: or if my wife had said, what are you doing

747
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 2: that's ridiculous, it probably would have had a profound impact

748
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 2: on the outcome in both the short term and the

749
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 2: long term. I know that I'm making this about me

750
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 2: now there's a bit of therapy going on, but I

751
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 2: love the way this works. So, Wendy, you mentioned that

752
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 2: at Clark University, part of the motto is that you

753
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 2: challenge convention, and I feel as though a lot of

754
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,800
Speaker 2: what we've talked about today really does challenge the common

755
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 2: convention of what the standard parenting programs that are out

756
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 2: there about. There's so much control in so many of

757
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 2: the big parenting programs, including the global ones. So when

758
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 2: you think about the research that you've done over the

759
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 2: last thirty plus years into families, what's the most powerful

760
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 2: thing that you've learned, and how has it challenged convention

761
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:03,879
Speaker 2: and helped you to be a bit of a better

762
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 2: Wendy Gronik.

763
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good that's a good question. I think

764
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 1: in terms of parent the work with parents, I'm very

765
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: sensitive to the negative stereotypes and raps about parents, and

766
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,959
Speaker 1: my experience working with parents is that they all want

767
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: the best for their kids there, you know, and they're

768
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 1: doing the things they do with that in mind, and

769
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 1: and so uh so it's really important to not be

770
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: judging of of of how parents are acting and understanding

771
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 1: that behind that is is is wanting the best for

772
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 1: their kids and and and in all the situations that

773
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 1: we have, we can we can find that and be

774
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 1: and really be very supportive and positive ourselves.

775
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 3: I love that. I love that. Yeah.

776
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 2: Well, to conclude our conversation, when and it's been so

777
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 2: wonderful talking to you, I ask five rapid fire questions

778
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 2: and I'm excited to hear your answers. So if we

779
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 2: asked your two children their favorite thing to do with you,

780
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 2: or given that they're in the late twenties now, their

781
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,479
Speaker 2: favorite memories of you because they're older, what would they say?

782
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:17,959
Speaker 3: Favorite thing to do with mom and dad?

783
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny. The other day my daughter, my

784
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: older daughter who's thirty now, said to me, so, when

785
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: we were little, you let us do whatever we wanted.

786
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: And I don't think I let them do whatever they want,

787
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 1: but she gave this example of something so funny. Thing

788
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 1: that my younger daughter wanted to do. She wanted to

789
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 1: every week she had. She wanted to give an award

790
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 1: to one of my older daughters, the friend's parents. It's

791
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 1: the nicest parent of the week something else, and I

792
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: actually and she'd got some flowers and she wanted We

793
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 1: went to the house, we gave the flowers and she said,

794
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: why did you let her do that? That was very strange,

795
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 1: And I said, she was so passionate about it was

796
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 1: out of compassion. Why wouldn't I Why wouldn't I let

797
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 1: her do that? So they do have this sense that

798
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 1: that that I followed them and sometimes and and that's

799
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 1: a really nice thing, and allowed them to follow there

800
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 1: sometimes silly or funny interests and cookie interests. So they

801
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 1: probably say that, so.

802
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:26,479
Speaker 3: What's being you a trickiest parenting miment.

803
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: It's tricky to be a motivation researcher on parenting with

804
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,399
Speaker 1: with children because they actually at a certain point they

805
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 1: read my book and they would say things like they

806
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 1: would use my language and they would say, Mom, you're

807
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 1: being controlling, you can you can't, you're not practicing what

808
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:52,399
Speaker 1: your page. And so sometimes when we were dealing with

809
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,839
Speaker 1: you know, tricky things in teenagerhood about curfew and things

810
00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: like that, they would use use the language against me. I, well,

811
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to provide structure, and I think just

812
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 1: also just trying to stay true to what I believe,

813
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 1: but tested all the time with those moments where I

814
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 1: got hooked into wanting wanting to make sure everything turned

815
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 1: out okay, and couldn't. I couldn't do that all the

816
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 1: time I have.

817
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 3: That happened to me all the time.

818
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 2: First of all, I feel like I'm supposed to be

819
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 2: the perfect parent and I get it wrong. But secondly,

820
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 2: my children, many times, as teenagers particularly, but even even

821
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 2: some of the younger ones, have said, Dad, you're supposed

822
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 2: to be a parenting expert, and they throw it back.

823
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,280
Speaker 3: Out and I'm like, oh my goodness, you got me. Okay.

824
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 3: Question pressure, so much pressure. Question number three.

825
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 2: If you could spend an hour with your kids at

826
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,760
Speaker 2: any age at all, let's say tomorrow afternoon, at three o'clock,

827
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 2: they're going to walk into your living room and they're

828
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 2: going to be that magical age.

829
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:55,839
Speaker 3: What age would you pick? And why I would pick?

830
00:41:55,960 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: How they are exactly now every for me, every stage,

831
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: every time, every time they grow. I'm just wowed by

832
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 1: who they are as you know and so, and the

833
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: way in which we can interact now as friends and

834
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: colleagues and equals and a parent child, but so right now,

835
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: I think would be would be my pick. I just

836
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 1: love interacting with them as adults.

837
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:23,320
Speaker 3: Great.

838
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 2: So question number four of the five, No matter how

839
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 2: good life has been and how glad you are to

840
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 2: be in the moment right now, what are you most

841
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:31,280
Speaker 2: looking forward to as a mom?

842
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: Oh? Gosh, to be honest, grandkids. Of course, it's going

843
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: to be a while when I'm trying not to say anything,

844
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:40,799
Speaker 1: because that's not.

845
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 2: You don't want to no pressure, no control, just let them,

846
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:46,320
Speaker 2: you know, make up their mind when they're ready.

847
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:50,320
Speaker 1: We're just seeing them settled in whatever interests them and happy,

848
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,879
Speaker 1: and so just seeing.

849
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 3: That move along beautiful.

850
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 2: And the last question, which is my favorite, if you

851
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:59,439
Speaker 2: could go back to Wendy Grolnik as a young mom

852
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 2: with no experience at this parenting thing at all, what

853
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 2: one piece of advice would you give yourself and how

854
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 2: did you learn how valuable that was.

855
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 1: It's actually a piece of advice that I give parents,

856
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 1: and I try not to give cho uch of advice,

857
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 1: but when when we work with them, is that to

858
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:22,360
Speaker 1: see every setback that your child has as an opportunity

859
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 1: for them to learn something. And so I and I

860
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 1: wish I had known that at the time for this

861
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 1: is just an example. There was one year that my

862
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 1: daughter at the school that that that my older daughter

863
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: was at. The principal would say, you can't ask for

864
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 1: a particular teacher. That was a rule, but apparently everybody

865
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: did and I just didn't realize it so so so

866
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 1: we always got the new teacher. So one year, I'm

867
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,439
Speaker 1: a rule follower that way. So one year she got

868
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 1: this teacher that was just really not knowledge well it

869
00:43:57,800 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 1: was a friend of a friend or something like that.

870
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 1: She only lasted a year, but she really set the

871
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,320
Speaker 1: kids back in the sense that she really didn't know

872
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 1: what they had learned last year. They were learning old things.

873
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 1: And at the time I was thinking, you know, I

874
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 1: should really do something and change her class, and you know,

875
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: this is terrible and she's going to be behind well

876
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:22,320
Speaker 1: that year because that all the other teachers were giving

877
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:27,319
Speaker 1: were producing plays in their classrooms and this teacher didn't.

878
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 1: My older daughter actually asked the teacher, can I write

879
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 1: a play and that the school can put off? And

880
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 1: she put on this play. She wrote the play, she

881
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 1: put on the play in her class. She developed a

882
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 1: philanthropic project that year, and so growth happens in the

883
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 1: strangest places, and so if I engineered that to get

884
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,399
Speaker 1: her out of it, that never would have happened. And

885
00:44:55,480 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: so the so the opportunities that of helping your kids

886
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 1: deal with whatever is in front of them in an

887
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 1: autonomy supportive way and learn those skills, and you just

888
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: never know what's going to be the growth opportunity. So

889
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 1: when parents come in and say this is happening, and

890
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: I don't think it's good, this is a great opportunity

891
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:19,799
Speaker 1: for you to teach your child that you can get

892
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 1: through this. I don't think I knew that, But if

893
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:25,359
Speaker 1: I had known that, I probably wouldn't have believed it.

894
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:27,800
Speaker 1: So but I wish I wish I had and I

895
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 1: do try to convey that to parents that it's all

896
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 1: just a learning opportunity. Thank goodness, this bad thing happened,

897
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 1: or this challenge happened because your child's still a home

898
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 1: and they're not in college yet where they're not going

899
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 1: to have you there to help them through it.

900
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 2: Wendy, so very grateful for you being so generous with

901
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 2: your time and with your expertise.

902
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:46,959
Speaker 3: Today.

903
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 2: It's beautiful. It's great to have the conversation. So I'm

904
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:51,280
Speaker 2: tremendously thankful it's been.

905
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 1: Oh, I hope it was useful.

906
00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 2: I hope that you've gotten some wonderful insight into Wendy

907
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 2: Ronick as a result of this Parenting in Perspective podcast.

908
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 2: Wendy's a wonderful communicator and has some brilliant thoughts around

909
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 2: how we can support and encourage our kids without pressure

910
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 2: and coercion.

911
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:13,319
Speaker 3: Her books are well.

912
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 2: Worth looking up, and I think they'd be a great

913
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 2: resource for any parent's library. Before I tell you about

914
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:20,760
Speaker 2: my next interview, can I ask you to jump into

915
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts, but preferably Apple podcasts, and

916
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 2: leave a review. Just a five star review will be fine.

917
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 2: If you want to leave a one star review, just

918
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 2: keep that to yourself. We don't need those ones, but

919
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 2: any five star reviews are welcome. Jump into Apple podcasts.

920
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 2: The more you tell people how much you love the podcast,

921
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,840
Speaker 2: the more people will discover it and get to participate

922
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 2: in great conversations.

923
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 3: Like we've just had.

924
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 2: So please feel free to dive in Apple podcasts, leave

925
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 2: a rating and a review, and let people know how

926
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 2: you're enjoying the podcasts and why I hope you'll join

927
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 2: me next time. Episode three of the Parenting in Perspective

928
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 2: podcast is with Jessica Rowe.

929
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 4: I was someone who I'd grown up with a mum

930
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 4: who has mental illness, so I thought I understood mental illness.

931
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:06,800
Speaker 4: Mum and I had been very public about her mental

932
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 4: illness and had advocacy work for Beyond Blue. My mum

933
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 4: has bipolar, so my message up until that point publicly

934
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 4: had been there should be no shame in mental illness.

935
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 4: We need to talk about it like any other physical illness.

936
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,240
Speaker 3: You've probably heard of Jessica Row. She's all over our TVs.

937
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 2: She's been in the media for a long long time,

938
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 2: and she's been a wonderful friend and supporter of the

939
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 2: work that I do to help build happier families. I'll

940
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 2: be talking with jess about her IVF journey, the importance

941
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 2: of our own.

942
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 3: Story, and mental health.

943
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 2: It's a really important conversation and I can't wait to

944
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 2: share it with you. That's Jessica Row on the next

945
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:47,799
Speaker 2: Parenting in Perspective podcast, a Happy Families podcast. If you'd

946
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 2: like more information on how to access more premium content,

947
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 2: visit happyfamilies dot com dou and click on memberships