1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:01,880 Speaker 1: You can give up hope that you're going to sort 2 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: of clear the decks of all the little stuff before 3 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: you get down to the really big important stuff. Because 4 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: in our world today, those the little stuff is infinite, 5 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: you know. I mean, there's just no limit to the 6 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: emails you can get, the articles you ought to read, 7 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,959 Speaker 1: the opportunities you could pursue. And although I sort of, 8 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: you know, make this sound I hope for comic purposes, 9 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: a bit defeatist in the way I'm talking about it, 10 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: it isn't at all. I think it's completely liberating to 11 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: bear this in mind. 12 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the technics 13 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 2: used by the world's most successful people to get so 14 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 2: much out of their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba. 15 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:50,480 Speaker 2: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, 16 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 2: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work day. 17 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 2: My guest today is Oliver Berkman. Oliver is a guardian 18 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 2: ry based in New York in Brooklyn. He writes the 19 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 2: weekly psychology based column This Column Will Change Your Life, 20 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 2: which I reckon is the best name for a column 21 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 2: that I've ever heard of. He's also the author of 22 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 2: the antidote Happiness for people who can't stand positive thinking. 23 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 2: So interestingly, I first had this interview booked with Oliver 24 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,320 Speaker 2: a few weeks ago, back before the world had turned 25 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 2: upside down and we had to postpone due to some 26 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:34,479 Speaker 2: technical difficulties. And my chat with Oliver finally took place 27 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 2: about two weeks ago from the time this episode will 28 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 2: go live. So being based in New York, he was 29 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 2: right in the middle of all the COVID chaos and 30 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 2: well and truly in lockdown. So we start by talking 31 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 2: about that and some of his tips as well for 32 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 2: parenting little people in the age of COVID, through to 33 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 2: looking at time management, and there is a really awesome 34 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 2: time management strategy that we cover in this episode. And 35 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 2: we also talk a bit about writer's block and for 36 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 2: anyone that suffered from procrastination. I think that there are 37 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 2: some really great tips in there. So on that note, 38 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 2: let's go to Oliver to hear about how he works. Oliver, 39 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 2: welcome to the show. 40 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: Thank you very much for inviting me. 41 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 2: So I'm quite excited about the timing of this interview. 42 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 2: So we were originally scheduled to do this a few 43 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 2: weeks ago, but technical difficulties made that impossible. And now 44 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:39,079 Speaker 2: we are right in the middle of Corona chaos, and 45 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 2: you are located in New York, in Brooklyn specifically, where 46 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 2: I think everything is shut down. So I want to 47 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 2: start with just how has the last week in terms 48 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 2: of your approach for work changed things for you? 49 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: It is completely extraordinary. The idea that I'm going to 50 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 1: tell other people, you know, how to deal with the 51 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: situation they find themselves in, seems wild if I am 52 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: going to do that, you know, like one week into 53 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: the situation myself. But it is has been fascinating. I mean, 54 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 1: with the caveat that everything's changing. Every day, Me and 55 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: my partner and our three and a half year old 56 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: son are essentially you know, under lockdown. We do go 57 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: out to the big park here, keeping our distance from 58 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 1: everyone else, and you have to make runs for groceries. 59 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: But other than that, that's pretty much it. I mean, 60 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: the most obvious thing to say was at the moment 61 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: this way of life began pretty much ten days ago. Now, 62 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: I guess for us, you know, suddenly we have no time, 63 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: right because the nursery school closed. So suddenly suddenly there's 64 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: no time because we have two jobs and a child 65 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: to be with who's not at an age where they're 66 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: going to spend many minutes entertaining themselves at the same time. 67 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: You know, I went onto Twitter and people are like, Oh, 68 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: how are we going to fill all these hours now 69 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: that we've got so much extra time to time to 70 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: binge watch your entire criterion collection of house movies or whatever, 71 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: and so there was this kind of radical redistribution of 72 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: the available time that people have. 73 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 2: I think it's interesting what you say about parenting, though, 74 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 2: because that is quite the divide in terms of how 75 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 2: much time you now have. And I'm a parent of 76 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 2: a six year old. I've got her fifty percent of 77 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 2: the time, her dad's got her the other fifty percent. 78 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 2: And for me, today is literally day one of homeschooling 79 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 2: a year one teacher while I run a business as well. 80 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 2: So that is going to be interesting. So I am curious, 81 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 2: what how has your approach to parenting. There are definitely 82 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 2: quite a few parents that listen to the podcast. What 83 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 2: are one of the things that you've been doing to 84 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 2: make that side of things work? And then I think 85 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 2: we're going to delve into maybe you know, just how 86 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,840 Speaker 2: you're approaching your writing in general now. But yeah, how's 87 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 2: the parenting going? 88 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 1: Well, so caveat we're in the early stage of this. 89 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 1: I think that the most important thing I've sort of 90 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: been telling myself is that when there's a big change 91 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: to your lifestyle happening like this, I anyway find it 92 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: very easy to slip into this sort of almost subconscious 93 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: idea that what I've got to now do is instantly 94 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: or what we've got to now do is instantly set 95 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 1: up the sort of ideal situation for the three of 96 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: us given the circumstances. So you know, our son now 97 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: has to have, you know, all the as many of 98 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: the sort of interesting activities to do as he would 99 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,479 Speaker 1: if you were at nursery and et cetera, et cetera, 100 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,359 Speaker 1: et cetera. And I think it's really useful to remember 101 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 1: that in the early stages of probably any massive shift, 102 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: but certainly this one, like the goal should be that 103 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 1: we all stay sane. The goal does not need to 104 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: be that you completely just are up and running in 105 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: a sort of perfect in a perfect way. But I 106 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 1: found myself really really sort of fretting about whether we 107 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: had enough sort of activities for him to deal with 108 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: they were the right ones, and my goodness, like, now 109 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: I don't have to become an expert in them in 110 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: early years education. And maybe I am going to have 111 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 1: to become an expert in earlier as education as the 112 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: months go on. But goodness, that's so weird to say. 113 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: But right now, I've been trying to remind myself. We've 114 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: been trying to remind ourselves that, you know, if this 115 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: household functions just about in terms of work and the child, 116 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: then that is you've got to count that a huge achievement. 117 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 2: I think that's good. I want to know of that, 118 00:06:55,279 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 2: just how how almost your inner standards and expectations have changed, 119 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 2: like even just on the topic of parenting, Like I know, 120 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 2: for me, given this is literally day one of the homeschool, 121 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 2: I like, if you looked at my office desk, I've 122 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 2: literally printed up an hour by hour schedule for Frankie's 123 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 2: homeschool to coincide with my work life. And I'm half 124 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 2: anticipating that I will get to the end of the 125 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 2: day and throw out the entire week schedule. But I'm 126 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 2: curious how you're kind of inner expectations for yourself and 127 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 2: what this new kind of working life and parenting life 128 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 2: looks like is different from the reality in. 129 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: Terms of my standards. I mean, what was very obvious 130 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: in our household was that, like the moment this began, 131 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: we went from being like totally uptight people about screen 132 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 1: time to the worst just yes, as much time as necessary. 133 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: But that after a few days actually that we shifted 134 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: again because of after a few days it was very 135 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: clear that that wasn't making anybody happy. So now it's 136 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: sort of in the second phase of that, which is okay, 137 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: it's definitely going to be a bit more generous than 138 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: it was before, but you kind of don't want and 139 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: also kind of you know, video conferencing with people. It's 140 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: wonderful for us to be able to sort of talk 141 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 1: to extended family and friends and stuff, but very quickly 142 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: even that started to feel like something you didn't want 143 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: to do for hours on end. So I'm kind of 144 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: feeling at the moment like I would like more of 145 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 1: a structure for the for the parenting, and I suspect 146 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: that one is gradually emerging, but I really right now, 147 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: I've just been thinking if everyone has is happy by 148 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 1: the end of the day, that that's amazing and far 149 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: ahead of me on that regard, or maybe you're more 150 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: uptight than me and need to relax. 151 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know. Maybe a bit of 152 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 2: column maybe to column B. Speaking of columns. Actually, so 153 00:08:58,559 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 2: one of the wise that I came across your word 154 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 2: is through the column that you write for The Guardian. 155 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,319 Speaker 2: This column will change your life. And I got to say, 156 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 2: it's my favorite name for a column that I've ever seen. 157 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 2: It's so awesome. You've been writing this for about a decade, 158 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 2: and I want to know you must have sort of 159 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 2: some columns that have really stuck with you, some pieces 160 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 2: of advice that you've written about that have had the 161 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 2: biggest impact. And I want to know what are the 162 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 2: ones that you think back on over the last decade 163 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,599 Speaker 2: of writing this column that you go yes, that fundamentally 164 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 2: changed how I work, how I think about things. I'm 165 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 2: curious as to which ones they might be. 166 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: I don't know about very specific columns, but certain themes 167 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: that i've sort of have turned out to be recurring 168 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 1: themes that have really made a difference to me and 169 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: I hope to readers. And one of these, which is 170 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 1: very relevant I think to work and probably extremely relevant 171 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: to work, right now is just the idea of understanding 172 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: time as a matter of trade offs or of opportunity cost. 173 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 1: If you're a person who knows sort of economics lingo, 174 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: the idea that because we are finite human beings, and 175 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: because the hours in a day of finite, every single 176 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: decision to do anything at all is automatically and unavoidably 177 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: a decision to not do anything else with that period 178 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 1: of time. And a lot of productivity advice I have 179 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:29,319 Speaker 1: found sort of runs on an unspoken implication that if 180 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 1: you follow this method, you won't have to make tough choices. 181 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: You know, you'll basically get to do everything or everything 182 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: that really matters. It's incredibly powerful to understand that you 183 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: can give up hope of the idea that you're going 184 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: to get everything done by most definitions of everything. You 185 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: can give up hope that you're going to sort of 186 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: clear the decks of all the little stuff before you 187 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 1: get down to the really big important stuff. Because in 188 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: our world today, those the little stuff is infinite, you know, 189 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 1: I mean, there's just no limit to the emails you 190 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:05,839 Speaker 1: can get, the articles you want to read, the opportunities 191 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 1: you could pursue. And although I sort of you know, 192 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: make this sound I hope for comic purposes, a bit 193 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: defeatist in the way I'm talking about it. It isn't 194 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: at all. I think it's completely liberating to bear this 195 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: in mind, because it's just about confronting reality in the 196 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 1: way that it really is. And then you just get 197 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: to stop the anxiety and the stress of trying to 198 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: do something that was impossible all along, you know, and 199 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 1: it really frees you up, in my experience, to spend 200 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: your finite time on the stuff that actually matters the most. 201 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: I don't think this shift of viewpoint solves all the 202 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: problems in many people's situations. It really does feel like, 203 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: you know, you've got to do an impossible amount just 204 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 1: to get by. But knowing what realizing when you're trying 205 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 1: to do something that is like logically impossible. I find 206 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: that very I find that very very helpful. 207 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's interesting. I'd love to dig into time. 208 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 2: I heard that your current book project is I think 209 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 2: the working title was Time Management for Mortals. Is that 210 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 2: still correct? 211 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 1: A working subtitle? Yes? Who knows what will happen? 212 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 2: Working subtitle? Okay, Yes, I like that title though. What 213 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 2: are some of the most useful kind of practical tips 214 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 2: that you've been thinking about or have discovered to help 215 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 2: you manage your time better, either BC before Corona or 216 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 2: in the situation we're in now. 217 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 1: It's funny. I don't want to sound like I'm like 218 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: this all proves me right or something, but I have 219 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: found that certain things that I that I had sort 220 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 1: of happened upon in the last couple of years have 221 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: been very useful after as well. So an idea that 222 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 1: I'm that I think very much is a sort of 223 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: practical implementation of the of the thing I was just 224 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: talking about about really seeing the finitude of time and 225 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 1: understanding that it's liberating to see that, not not depressing. 226 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: Is is this idea of limiting your work in progress? 227 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 1: I don't know you. Are you super familiar with the 228 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,079 Speaker 1: Canban systems of working? I mean, I don't know. 229 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 2: I some of your else I certainly am, but maybe 230 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 2: not all listeners are, so if you can, I mean. 231 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: I'm not super super familiar because it's a collaborative working 232 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: tool for teams, and I and I have a rather 233 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: solitary working existence relatively speaking. But this is a whole 234 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: system from Japanese corporate practice basically of tracking the flow 235 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 1: of tasks through a team from things that are ready 236 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 1: to do, things that are in process, things that are 237 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: on hold, things that are how have been completed. And 238 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: there's a very good book called Personal kan Ban which 239 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,839 Speaker 1: is an implementation of this for you know, individual people 240 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: who are not working in big in big corporate teams. 241 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 1: I definitely recommend it. But the principle that I want 242 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: to talk about here, which does not require that you 243 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: that you implement one of these systems, which is a 244 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: huge notice board covered in post its basically, I mean, 245 00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: like like so many things. But the principle is that 246 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: you pick a very small limit for the number of 247 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: tasks that you're going to be sort of working on 248 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 1: at any given time, like three, for example, and you 249 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: don't you don't add any more tasks to that plate 250 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: until you've completed at least one of the three, freeing 251 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: upper thereby freeing up a slot. So obviously, on the 252 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: actual level of minute to minute, you should only work 253 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: on one thing at once, and multitasking is bad and 254 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: we and we and we all know that. But you know, 255 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: if if I'm in the context of a book, for example, 256 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: you wouldn't put right book as one of these tasks, 257 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: because that would sort of clog up the system for 258 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: a very very long time. But you know, I might 259 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: be at a given point researching one chapter and drafting 260 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: the first half of another chapter, say, and you would 261 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: you would put those two things on, and you would not. 262 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: I would not. If I was sticking to this system, 263 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: I would not permit myself to add a third or 264 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: a fourth thing. I'm always aware when I talk about 265 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: this that it sounds rather mundane, but I found it 266 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 1: kind of extraordinarily powerful because, for one thing, it really 267 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: forces you to It forces you into a confrontation with 268 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: your limited capacities, right because what you're doing is you're 269 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: deciding what to use your limited capacities on. And it 270 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: makes you realize how tempting it is the rest of 271 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: the time when you're not doing this to make yourself 272 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: feel productive, just by starting like twenty things and not 273 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: by seeing them through to completion and getting them off 274 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: your plate and off your brain. And it makes you 275 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: realize that so much of the time. In my case, anyway, 276 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: before working in this fashion, I was telling myself that 277 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: I was doing sort of far more than I actually 278 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: was doing, because it feels like I can't just ignore 279 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: my email for the next six hours while I do X. 280 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: But it's like, actually, you're always ignoring a hum amount 281 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: of things for the next six hours while you do anything. 282 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: And it's just so powerful to know it and to 283 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: be able to make the decisions accordingly. Does that make sense? 284 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: If I explained this problem. 285 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 2: Makes complete sense and I'm listening to it, and I'm thinking, oh, 286 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 2: that that sounds so powerful, like simple but really powerful, 287 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 2: And I want to know, Like something that I'm thinking 288 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 2: about is, how do you know what the right size 289 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 2: project is? To be one of those three projects? Obviously, 290 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 2: write a book too big, write a paragraph too small? 291 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 2: So how how do you find that that happy medium? 292 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 2: What are some tips around that that you that have 293 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 2: served you? 294 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: Honestly, I think one of the things that's so amazing 295 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: about this approach is that this becomes intuitive. I don't 296 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: want to make this sound like a get out from 297 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: answering your question, but I mean I do this with 298 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: little post its, right, So I write the tasks usually 299 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: that I'm going to be counting as my three for now, 300 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 1: and it's pretty obvious at that point that I'm not 301 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: going to put right book because then I can't my 302 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: system is not going to flow for the next like 303 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 1: year or two. I'm not going to bother writing out, 304 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: you know, answer one email that's completely ridiculous, waste of handwriting. 305 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: And so it actually has this kind of right sizing effect, 306 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: you know, because you know that you want this system 307 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,439 Speaker 1: to be moving and flowing, and you know that, like 308 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 1: there's things that you can't leave for six days, so 309 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 1: it has to not be something that's going to take 310 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 1: six days. Often. I think you know the way this 311 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: is implemented, and I do this too. As you know, 312 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: you keep a list or a whole set of post 313 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: its of your tasks that are kind of ready to 314 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: be done. So you're selecting from a menu. And when 315 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: you're doing that, really it is a sort of at 316 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: a level of intuition, you will see that if you 317 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 1: can see something that's really important, there can't just be 318 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: forgotten about for weeks, and then you're not going to 319 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 1: pick in a to go ahead of it. Three tasks 320 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: that are going to take lots of weeks, you're gonna 321 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: you're going to figure out how to how to right 322 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: size them. I do take the advice from David Allen. 323 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 1: I think is really very useful to express these express 324 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:19,679 Speaker 1: your to do list with a verb at the beginning 325 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: of a task. If you're writing it out so that 326 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,679 Speaker 1: you are saying, you know, book project or something, you 327 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 1: are saying, like, go online and do the research for 328 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 1: this question or whatever it might be. That's not a 329 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: fool proof thing, because you can certainly still, you know, 330 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 1: you can find cheap ways around it by saying like 331 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: work on this project or something. But but but but 332 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: it's a good little discipline I think for sort of 333 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 1: narrowing it down. But I got to be honest, I think, 334 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 1: really it just it just comes to you. And actually 335 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: I was just going to say, in terms of coronavirus, 336 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 1: if you're in a situation where you're kind of ambiently 337 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: anxious about the world, which I have been on some 338 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: days in recent weeks, if you reduce that limit of 339 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: a number of tasks from three to one, I find 340 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,719 Speaker 1: that a very powerful discipline. It's just like, you know, 341 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,640 Speaker 1: I'm just going to articulate on a little piece of paper, 342 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: but the one thing that I need to do now, 343 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: and then I'm going to do it, and then I'm 344 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: going to move that piece of paper off to the side, 345 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 1: and there's something about that kind of visualized, very very 346 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: narrowly focused thing that I think enables you to plow 347 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 1: through a lot of stuff that needs doing even when 348 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: the moment you stop, you're like back to oh the Apocalypse. 349 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,439 Speaker 2: I've heard you say that there's a phrase that you 350 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 2: repeat to yourself, and that is you don't need to 351 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 2: feel like doing something in order to do it. It 352 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 2: just reminded me of that what you were saying. Can 353 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,199 Speaker 2: you talk to me about that phrase and you know 354 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 2: how that impacts your approach to work? 355 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, This is just a thing that I sort 356 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: of discovered a result of my sort of earliest involvement 357 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,679 Speaker 1: with meditation, back when not literally everybody was doing it, 358 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: though not that long ago. I think it's just a 359 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: very interesting point about motivation and procrastination that we there 360 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 1: is actually a distinction that we usually fail to draw 361 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: that when we say we can't work, we really mean 362 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: that we can't make ourselves feel like working. And it's 363 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: an important distinction because it is possible a lot of 364 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 1: the time to just let go of the need to 365 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: feel like working, and then it's possible to sort of 366 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: just work alongside that feeling I think this really needs. 367 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: In fact, even since I wrote about it in my 368 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: last book, I feel like I want to at a nuance, 369 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 1: which is that it's possible to hear what I'm saying 370 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: and take it as a reason to sort of bear 371 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: down on yourself and be very sort of aggressive towards 372 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 1: yourself and tell yourself that, you know, I'm feeling down 373 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 1: or unmotivated, but I'm just going to you know, I've 374 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 1: got a scream at my internal voice to shut up 375 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: so that I can so that I can plow on, 376 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:10,679 Speaker 1: And I really don't want it to have that implication. 377 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 1: The idea is not that you can always force yourself 378 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: to work no matter your emotional state. I think that's 379 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: just not true. Often, I, you know, back in the day, 380 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 1: found myself in the situation of not wanting to do 381 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: something that I knew actually I sort of in a 382 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 1: higher sense did want to do because it was important 383 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 1: to me, and then sort of looking for ways to 384 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,199 Speaker 1: get motivated to do it to sort of change my 385 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: mindset and feel excited about it, or you know, and 386 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 1: the obviously, the world of self help is full of 387 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: a million dubious techniques for ginning yourself up in that way, 388 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: and yet what I realized was that it actually is 389 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: it's not clearing the path to doing more work. It's 390 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 1: actually putting another obstacle in the way of doing work 391 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: because it is reinforce seek that belief that you need 392 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: to get your feelings in order before you can work. 393 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,959 Speaker 1: And the crazy thing is that you know, your emotions 394 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: are not something that you can easily control at all. 395 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: Your actual behavior is something that a lot of people 396 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: a lot of the time find they can control. You 397 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: can open the laptop and navigate to the file and 398 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: type a sentence or two. And so if you're telling 399 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 1: yourself that you've got to get your emotions sorted out 400 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 1: before you can do that, you're actually just sort of 401 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 1: setting the bar a lot higher. So that's what I 402 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: mean by that I mean, and it really is that 403 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 1: idea of like, it's not like I've got to make 404 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: this feeling of reluctance go away. I also haven't got 405 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 1: to transform this feeling of reluctance into excitement and anticipation. 406 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: It can just literally be okay, yes both. And you know, 407 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 1: I feel I feel like I don't want to this work. 408 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: That's totally legitimate and fair, and I can be friendly 409 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: towards that emotion. Oh and at the same time, I'm 410 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 1: going to be doing this work. 411 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 2: I think it's super helpful advice. Again, very simple, but 412 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 2: quite a different way of looking at things. And I 413 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 2: guess it's like it's a good segue into thinking about 414 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 2: how you overcome writer's block. Obviously, your work is as 415 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 2: a writer, you write books, you write a column that 416 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 2: you have to file every week. What are the strategies 417 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 2: that you've found most effective aside from that one in 418 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 2: terms of overcoming that that horrible feeling of staring at 419 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 2: a blank word document. 420 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: I mean, this has been an issue for me because 421 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 1: I'm definitely like a I'm definitely like a sort of 422 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: recovering perfectionist, and I'm always a pain to say. Like, 423 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: there's a really annoying thing about perfectionism that people kind 424 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: of use it as to be self critical, but secretly 425 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: to big themselves up. You know. It's like the thing 426 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: you're supposed to say a job interviews when they say 427 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: your great flaws, I'm just I'm just too I'm just 428 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: too conscientious about my perfon output. I really don't mean 429 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: it like that, Like I mean, it screws you up, 430 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,360 Speaker 1: and it did for a long time, screw me up. 431 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: The kind of affections I'm talking about, there's there's nothing 432 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 1: to be proud of. I don't think people should be 433 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: ashamed if that's their screw up either. But but it's 434 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 1: not like it's not something that you're secretly, like really 435 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,880 Speaker 1: happy that you have. It is a sort of relentless 436 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: you know, it just makes it impossible to enjoy doing 437 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,679 Speaker 1: any of the work. And and it's it's just not 438 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: a way to produce stuff. It's not a way to 439 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: produce the best stuff. It's just it's just it's just hopeless. So, 440 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 1: I mean, this is why I have, you know, historically 441 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 1: struggled with writer's block, because obviously what's going on there 442 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: for me and I think a lot of people is 443 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: you're worried that what you write it's not going to 444 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 1: be good enough because basically, if you just literally needed 445 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:57,679 Speaker 1: to fill a page with words, like of course you could, uh, 446 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: you know, it's just u it's like Jack Nicholson in 447 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: the Shining or whatever. So you can just type. And 448 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 1: so you know, the advice to sort of just write 449 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 1: and try and let you're in an editor go to 450 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 1: sleep for a while I think is helpful for a 451 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 1: lot of people, but it's usually not quite enough because 452 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 1: of these kind of perfectionist tendencies. You actually want what 453 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: you write to be good, and you can sort of 454 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 1: try to do that non judgmental thing. But if you 455 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: were completely non judgmental, you tell yourself, you know, then 456 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: it wouldn't be any good at all, And what's the point. 457 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: I definitely find that a few pieces of not particularly 458 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 1: original advice, but certain ones that seem useful to me. 459 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: I do find that a quantitative focus over a qualitative 460 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: one helps here. Maybe it's a certain number of words 461 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: a day, maybe it's a certain amount of time. Just 462 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: the idea that you're your quota for the day will 463 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: have been fulfilled if you if you meet of these 464 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: quantitative goals, that sort of helps shift the focus away 465 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: from you know, I've got to write the greatest thing 466 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 1: ever something that this is kind of I have heard 467 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: now various sort of celebrated writers doing this, so I 468 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 1: don't feel quite so sheepish about saying it. Something that 469 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: I have always found very useful is to is to 470 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,119 Speaker 1: write a rough draft, print it out, and then type 471 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 1: it back in to the computer. 472 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,719 Speaker 2: Oh can you tell me about like handwrite a draft. 473 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 2: Do you mean no, No, I do it all but 474 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 2: on the computer, right, So you'd write it on the computer, 475 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 2: then you print it out, and then you retype it. 476 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: Yes, that's right. 477 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 2: Interesting apparently there you go. 478 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:56,360 Speaker 1: For me. What that means is that, well, one way 479 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 1: of putting it, I suppose, is that you can sort 480 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: of be in a flow state good day during the 481 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: editing as well, because what's happening when I'm typing it 482 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: in again is that I'm making all sorts of changes, 483 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 1: but I'm making them almost unconsciously, in the same way 484 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: that on a good writing day you're sort of almost 485 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 1: unconscious of the words flowing out, and you're not doing 486 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: that very conscious kind of edit. You know, obviously a 487 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: book has to have that phase of editing as well, 488 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: when you're very consciously just sort of inspecting every word. 489 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: But I find that it's this kind of wonderful compromise 490 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: because you when you're typing it in again, you don't 491 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: have to start from a blank page, so you're not 492 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: worried about like dredging it out of your soul in 493 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: some sort of terribly melodramatic and stressful fashion. But equally, 494 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: you are kind of in that I don't know how 495 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: to describe it. Really you're in that kind of flowy 496 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:57,959 Speaker 1: place of fresh writing instead of the inner editor criticizing 497 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: every sentence, And the result is that it's usually, I think, 498 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: quite a lot better what you what you type in again, 499 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: and knowing that you're going to do that as well, 500 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: for some weird reason, also makes it easier for me 501 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: to write the first draft, because it's a sort of 502 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: a way of dramatizing to myself. I suppose that nobody's 503 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 1: going to be reading this, and I mean that's always 504 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,400 Speaker 1: true of one's first draft, but it's hard to sort 505 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 1: of remember in some deep level. Whereas when I'm thinking, like, okay, 506 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: you're going to print this out, type it back in 507 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: and like literally tear up the pages that you of 508 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: the first draft, there's something about that that is quite 509 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: conducive to dropping the self censorship. I have one other 510 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: thought about writer's block, if you want to hear it anyway. 511 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 2: Yes, definitely, definitely. 512 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: That was just a very nice point that I think 513 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: I comes from a writer called Paul the Silver who 514 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: wrote a book called How to Write a Lot, which 515 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: is great and is aimed at academics, but I don't 516 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: think it's restricted to academics in its usefulness. His whole 517 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: theme through the whole of that book is just like 518 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: how do you write a lot? You write? You make 519 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: a schedule, you pick a couple of days hours every 520 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: day when you're going to write, and you write those hours. 521 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: I mean, that's all. That's a good strategy. But what 522 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: I really love about the book is this kind of relentless, 523 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: kind of bringing down to earth of the writing process. 524 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:35,959 Speaker 1: I guess now he's writing for social scientists who are 525 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: writing journal articles, so he can say things like, you know, look, 526 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: you're not a poet, you're not a novelist. Get over yourself. 527 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: You're just putting some words down to explain what you 528 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: want to say. But actually, I think that's probably quite 529 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: use sort of vice for poets and novelists, or for 530 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: people like me who are neither of those two things. 531 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: You know, not not novelists. But I hope that I 532 00:29:55,280 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 1: am writing something kind of in a stylish fashion. But 533 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: it's just great to remember that, like I find anyway 534 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: to sort of be like, you're not all that, You're 535 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: just trying to get some words on the page, you know, 536 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: they'll be there'll be a phase later on if you 537 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: want to kind of like, you know, get all fancy 538 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: with your with your sentences. There's something about bringing the 539 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: whole project back down to earth and reminding yourself that 540 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 1: plumbers do not get plumber's block and accountants do not 541 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: get accountants block, and get over yourself. The other point 542 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: that he makes, just to finish off, is like, it's 543 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: very strange writer's block. It's the only it's a very 544 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: strange example of them. It's actually just the description of 545 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: a situation, right, but you're not writing anything. But it's 546 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: but it's sort of rarefied into a diagnosis of a 547 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 1: of a of a cause of that problem. It's like, 548 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: I don't think you really have writer's block, he would say. 549 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: I think, you know, it's just like you haven't written anything, 550 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: and I don't. For some mysterious reason, I find something 551 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: liberating about that. 552 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 2: I think that's great. It's so good to remember. Plumbers 553 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 2: certainly don't have plumber's block. In fact, they remove block. 554 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, so helpful. 555 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: Now. 556 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 2: I normally ask guests right before we start recording, do 557 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 2: you have a hard stop? So I want to ask, 558 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 2: do you have just a few more minutes for me 559 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 2: to ask you a couple more questions. 560 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: Yes, I do amazing. 561 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 2: I did want to ask because you write a weekly column, 562 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 2: which means every idea. Every week, you need to come 563 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 2: up with a new idea, some original content, something that 564 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 2: will be useful to your many many readers. And I 565 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 2: want to know how how are you doing that? Where 566 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 2: are your ideas for your column coming from? 567 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 1: So it's one of those kind of like really great 568 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: questions that I don't know that it has a really 569 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 1: great answer. One of the things about the discipline of 570 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: the weekly column is certainly that again a little bit 571 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: similar to what I was saying about writer's block. It 572 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: does sort of maybe I shouldn't phrase it like this, 573 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: but it does sort of lower your standards in a 574 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: helpful fashion. It does make you realize there's a point 575 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 1: in the week where you have to go with that idea, 576 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 1: the best idea you've got. It doesn't really matter if 577 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: it isn't actually the best idea of all time at 578 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: that point, because you know, the thing just marches on 579 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: the newspaper production schedule. And that, for someone like me anyway, 580 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,719 Speaker 1: is a very helpful discipline that is not a problem 581 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: at all. That's kind of like good to go forward 582 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: with that discomfort of I'm not one hundred percent certain 583 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: that this is brilliant, it's great, and actually, you know, 584 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: I think columns that come out of that are as 585 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: likely to be good when I thought it wasn't a 586 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: good idea as when I was deeply confident that it 587 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: was a good idea. 588 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 2: I'm curious, though, like, where are you kind of getting 589 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 2: stimulus to feed your brain, because I imagine, I mean, 590 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 2: your columns are generally sort of contextual with what's going 591 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 2: on in the world at the moment, and so I'm wondering, 592 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 2: do you have go to sources that you're consuming weekly 593 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 2: daily that are informing your worldview and maybe triggering some 594 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 2: of those ideas. 595 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I have about I think maybe one hundred 596 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: websites bookmarked, from kind of individual academics blogs through to 597 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: major the sort of certain verticals on major news sites 598 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 1: and kind of everything in between. 599 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 2: One hundred websites. Well, what are some of the Yeah, 600 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 2: what are some of them more I guess, you know, 601 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 2: perhaps less mainstream ones that maybe listeners might not know 602 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 2: about that you're finding very useful. 603 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: Well, some of them are some of them are very mainstream, 604 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: but I still think it's worth mentioning, like Tyler Cowan's 605 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: blog Marginal Revolution by the economist Tyler Cowan, who is 606 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: really just one of these extraordinary curatives of intellectual juiciness 607 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: from everywhere I have. I think the British Psychological Society's 608 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 1: Research Digest blog is one that I always find very, 609 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: very stimulating. I always like to follow what Ben Kasnoka 610 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: is doing on his blog. I don't know if you 611 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: know him, n o h a dot com cal Newport. 612 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: I see this is on this list, but so is 613 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: kind of you know, Scientific American and the science pages 614 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 1: of the New York Times. So there you go. I mean, 615 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 1: that's the sort of fantastic bit of a censeer that 616 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 1: in the realm. And another thing that I think is 617 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: interesting about the media environment we're in now when it 618 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 1: comes to generating ideas is like I try really hard 619 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: to be a decent, a sort of citizen of the 620 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 1: media in the sense of, you know, attributing ideas when 621 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 1: I get them from other people and things like that. 622 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,360 Speaker 1: But it is kind of a conversation. So if somebody 623 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: writes an essay in the New York Times that goes 624 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 1: viral across the world, and I have some thoughts in 625 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:53,760 Speaker 1: response to it that I disagree with it or something. 626 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: I think it's completely legitimate to make my column about 627 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,880 Speaker 1: that topic that week. You know, I'm not going to 628 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,319 Speaker 1: be pretending that I was the person who came up 629 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: with the original spark. You don't want to do that 630 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:08,880 Speaker 1: too much, of course, because it's nice to be able 631 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 1: to put sort of lob your own completely kind of 632 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: original or hopefully original things into that conversation. But I 633 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 1: think that just speaks to this general point that you know, 634 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: I know people will be familiar with that, like good 635 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 1: ideas are combinations of existing good ideas and responses to 636 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:30,840 Speaker 1: other people's good ideas, and ways of reframing old good ideas. 637 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 1: I think that, you know, the day someone writes an 638 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,400 Speaker 1: article or a book or anything where the ideas in 639 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: it are literally had never been thought in any form 640 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,439 Speaker 1: by anyone before, will be held down. 641 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,799 Speaker 2: Hell yeah, I think I think that's so useful to remember. Now, 642 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 2: my very last question, Oliver, if people want to consume 643 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 2: more of your work, where should they go? 644 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 1: Well, they're very very welcome to read all this into 645 00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 1: my book The Antidote happiness for people who can't stand 646 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,439 Speaker 1: positive thinking, and they can follow me on Twitter at 647 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 1: Oliver book my O L I V E R b 648 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 1: U r K E M A M. And if you 649 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:10,959 Speaker 1: go to the Guardian's website and type my name into 650 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 1: the search, you can find all the columns twitch we've 651 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: been referring as. 652 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,239 Speaker 2: Well fantastic and I will link to all that in 653 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,359 Speaker 2: the show notes. Oliver, I've so enjoyed this chat with 654 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,279 Speaker 2: no technical difficulties, which has been wonderful. Thank you so 655 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:27,400 Speaker 2: much for your time. 656 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 1: It's been really fun and very interesting to sort of 657 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: chew this stuff over in the present circumstances. Yeah, thank you. 658 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,920 Speaker 2: That is it for today's show. If you are enjoying 659 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 2: how I work, I would love it if you could 660 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,240 Speaker 2: take maybe five or ten seconds out of your day 661 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 2: to leave a review in Apple Podcasts or wherever you 662 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 2: listen to this. All you need to do is click 663 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 2: on the star rating, or you might even choose to 664 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 2: be super generous with your time and write a few words. 665 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 2: I absolutely love getting feedback from listeners, so thank you 666 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 2: so much for everyone that has done that. So that 667 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:08,359 Speaker 2: is it for today and I'll see you next time.