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Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics

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Speaker 1: used by the world's most successful people to get so

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Speaker 1: much out of their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber.

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Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium,

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Speaker 1: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work day.

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Speaker 1: Today's show is a best of episode because I've been

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Speaker 1: taking a few weeks off over summer to recharge, and

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Speaker 1: so I've been going through the last two and a

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Speaker 1: half years of doing How I Work and picking out

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Speaker 1: some of my favorite interviews to re share with you.

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Speaker 1: So very excited about two Day's interview. It was one

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Speaker 1: of my favorites from twenty to twenty. And my guest

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Speaker 1: is Darren Murph as git Lab's head of Remote. That

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Speaker 1: is what Darren does. That is his actual job title.

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Speaker 1: And if you've never heard of GitLab, it's the world's

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Speaker 1: largest all remote company with over thirteen hundred team members

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Speaker 1: across over sixty seven countries with no company owned officers.

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Speaker 1: So Darren has spent his career leading remote teams and

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Speaker 1: charting remote transformations, and he also is the author of

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Speaker 1: git Lab's Remote Playbook, which I definitely highly recommend checking out.

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Speaker 1: Darren also holds a Guinness World Record as the planet's

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Speaker 1: most prolific professional blogger, having published ten million words. Now,

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Speaker 1: before I head to Darren, I just want to say

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Speaker 1: a big thank you to everyone that has been leaving

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Speaker 1: reviews in Apple podcasts orever you listen to this show.

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Speaker 1: It's so appreciated. It's just amazing getting listener feedback. It

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Speaker 1: really is totally wonderful. And if you yet to leave

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Speaker 1: a review, I would be so so so grateful. If

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Speaker 1: maybe today is the day that you might take, you know,

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Speaker 1: five or ten seconds out of your date to leave

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Speaker 1: a star rating or write some words helps other people

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Speaker 1: find the show, and it's really just lovely getting feedback

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Speaker 1: on your own work, to be honest. So on that note,

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Speaker 1: let's head to Darren to his about how he works. Darren,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure

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Speaker 2: to be here.

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited to be talking to you. I was

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Speaker 1: just saying that before we started recording. You've just done

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Speaker 1: so many interesting things, and I feel like I've got

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Speaker 1: a billion questions and I'll probably get through about one percent.

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Speaker 1: But I want to start fortune this mini article about you,

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Speaker 1: And in the article you said, what we're seeing now

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Speaker 1: isn't remote work, it's crisis induced work from home. And

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Speaker 1: I want to know what is the difference.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's accurate. So remote work, when it is intentionally structured,

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Speaker 2: is life's greatest cheat code. It enables you to accomplish

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Speaker 2: your bucket list decades before anyone else would if they

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Speaker 2: were beholden to a rigid commute and they were simply

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Speaker 2: trying to wrap what is their life around the rigidity

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Speaker 2: of a daily commute and a trek into an office.

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Speaker 2: But what we're experiencing right now is not that we

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Speaker 2: have all been thrust into our homes by a tragedy

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Speaker 2: COVID nineteen. And on top of us being in our homes,

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Speaker 2: none of us are adequately prepared even going out for

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Speaker 2: dinner or drinks or going to get groceries. All of

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Speaker 2: this is more complex right now. We're all a lot

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Speaker 2: more isolated. There are a lot of things happening outside

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Speaker 2: of our control that many people are conflating with remote

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Speaker 2: work because it is their first experience with remote work.

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Speaker 2: But I assure you it is not the same. And indeed,

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Speaker 2: I've been encouraged by some people saying even though I'm

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Speaker 2: working remotely during a pandemic, there are some things that

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Speaker 2: are very encouraging, and frankly, I can't imagine going back

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Speaker 2: into the office full time, and that encourages me because

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Speaker 2: if people can find the silver lining in remote work

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Speaker 2: and work from home, now, just imagine how amazing it

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Speaker 2: is once travel restrictions are lifted.

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Speaker 1: It's going to be quite amazing. I must say, I

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Speaker 1: feel like I was thinking about the sea out of

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Speaker 1: the day. I used to travel work probably once a week.

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Speaker 1: I'd be at airport about once a week, and I

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Speaker 1: was thinking, gosh, I barely remember what an airport or

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Speaker 1: a plane feels like. That's just going to be such

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Speaker 1: a novelty whenever restrictions are lifted. And in Melbourne at

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Speaker 1: the moment when we're recording this, we're in stage four lockdown,

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Speaker 1: so things are pretty full on here now. When it

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Speaker 1: comes to remote work, you literally wrote the book on it.

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Speaker 1: So get Lab, where you're head of remote, has a

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Speaker 1: remote working handbook which is such a good read. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to link to it in the show notes, and

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Speaker 1: I want to pull out some of the things that

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Speaker 1: I quite liked that were sort of like some little

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Speaker 1: surprising gems. And then I want to hear from you,

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Speaker 1: what are some of your favorite pieces of advice or

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Speaker 1: tips from the handbook, because there's just so much in there.

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Speaker 1: So some of my favorites were to adopt a self

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Speaker 1: service and self learning mentality, which I really like because

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Speaker 1: I feel like often and I've experienced this myself with Inventium,

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Speaker 1: which I've been my innovation consults here that I've been

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Speaker 1: running for the last fourteen years, where you can sort

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Speaker 1: of sometimes make poor recruitment choices and people come in

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Speaker 1: with that sort of helpless mentality and ask everyone else

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Speaker 1: for advice as opposed to sort of taking things on

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Speaker 1: board themselves, which is critical in a remote environment. I

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Speaker 1: love make documentation everyone's responsibility, and that again I think

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Speaker 1: have a three thousand plus page handbook where I imagine

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Speaker 1: everyone has documented rules and practices and all sorts of

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Speaker 1: things like that there should be no unwritten rules in

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Speaker 1: remote culture. I might even get you to just talk

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Speaker 1: a bit about what you mean there. And also one

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Speaker 1: of my favorites encouraging the use of emojis so that

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Speaker 1: you can communicate emotion, which I thought was really cool.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know if you want to comment on

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Speaker 1: any of those. They were some of my favorites, but

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Speaker 1: I also want to know what some of your favorite

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Speaker 1: things are in that handbook.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love all of those. It is so hardening

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Speaker 2: to hear someone articulate those back. It's incredible. Documentation is

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Speaker 2: the superpower of remote teams, and it's non negotiable. Just

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Speaker 2: to give you an example during the course of this interview,

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Speaker 2: there are dozens, maybe even hundreds of people inside get

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Speaker 2: lab and outside of get lab that are able to

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Speaker 2: move their projects forward based on things that I have

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Speaker 2: written down. So although I am conversing with you, my

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Speaker 2: knowledge is at work with people all around the world

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Speaker 2: able to tap into that and use it to move

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Speaker 2: their projects forward. This is the power of documentation. Instead

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Speaker 2: of someone having to tap me on the virtual shoulder

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Speaker 2: and ask me a question, I'm able to proactively answer

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Speaker 2: everything that they're asking with a link and in the

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Speaker 2: get lab way of working, if someone were to genuinely

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Speaker 2: ask me something that is net new and is not documented,

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Speaker 2: I would of course get them that answer, but then

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Speaker 2: I would immediately document it so that anyone else who

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Speaker 2: has this question going forward would simply be able to

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Speaker 2: find it online. This is a much more inclusive way

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Speaker 2: to communicate and to scale knowledge, But it definitely takes

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Speaker 2: a special type of person who thinks this way, because

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Speaker 2: the human default is that is to default to synchronicity

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Speaker 2: and to default to async feels a little bit awkward

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Speaker 2: at first. Oftentimes it feels a bit cold until you

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Speaker 2: realize that by doing so, you're making everyone else's day

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Speaker 2: much more efficient, and you're giving them more time back

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Speaker 2: to spend with their family, with neighbors, with community members,

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Speaker 2: all of which is a much more useful way to

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Speaker 2: spend time when you're talking about the net impact to

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Speaker 2: society versus asking someone a question for the five hundredth time,

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Speaker 2: I was going to highlight a few of the favorites

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Speaker 2: of mine, you listed a few favorites of yours. The

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Speaker 2: get Lab values page is an absolute treasure trove. If

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Speaker 2: you google get lab values, you'll find six core values.

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Speaker 2: Probably words you've heard before, things like iteration, collaboration, results,

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Speaker 2: but all of those terms in a vacuum can mean

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Speaker 2: something different to each individual. Underneath each value are thousands

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Speaker 2: of words called sub values, which substantiate and explain how

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Speaker 2: each of these values are lived with no physical building

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Speaker 2: that we commute into each day. There are a couple

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Speaker 2: of these that, when strung together, are incredibly powerful. So

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Speaker 2: a few of these in a row that I love

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Speaker 2: are kindness, assume positive intent, no ego. No ego is

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Speaker 2: a huge one. Don't let each other fail. Blameless problem solving.

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Speaker 2: This is amazing because it enables you to solve every

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Speaker 2: problem knowing that there's not going to be blamed. There

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Speaker 2: is no agenda. We are simply trying to solve the problem.

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Speaker 2: And although this sounds extremely simple, this is very much

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Speaker 2: against the grain in most corporate structures. And the last

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Speaker 2: one that I'll share right now is short toes. This

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Speaker 2: is the one that caught my attention when I first

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Speaker 2: came to get LAB. I saw short toes and thought,

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Speaker 2: what in the world could that mean? Well, I get lab.

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Speaker 2: It's not possible for you to step on anyone's toes

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Speaker 2: or contribute to someone else's domain because everyone has short toes,

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Speaker 2: and that creates a welcome atmosphere for all of us

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Speaker 2: to put forth our best knowledge, regardless of what department

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Speaker 2: of the company we're in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I read that short toes one myself. And I'm like,

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Speaker 1: hang on, what's that because the rest are kind of

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Speaker 1: like you assume that you know what they mean. I

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Speaker 1: do like that short toes one too. Now, you mentioned

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Speaker 1: the idea of synchronous versus asynchronous communication, and I know

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Speaker 1: you've spoken about what companies that truly want to do

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Speaker 1: remote work well need to do is replace the default

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Speaker 1: of synchronous communication. Can you explain what you mean by that,

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Speaker 1: like how companies do default to synchronous communication and what

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Speaker 1: are the steps that a company needs to take to

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Speaker 1: not do that because it's so well entrenched into most

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Speaker 1: company cultures.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, to better understand this, you really have to go

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Speaker 2: all the way back to grade school. If you think

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Speaker 2: about it. Early on. In our classical education, children are

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Speaker 2: contained within four walls and a roof. We are conditioned

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Speaker 2: from birth to operate in a synchronous manner in what

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Speaker 2: is essentially an office for children. We are taught no

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Speaker 2: other way, and so it's quite unusual to move projects

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Speaker 2: forward or to build relationships when you aren't in the

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Speaker 2: same place at the same time. You may hear things like, oh,

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Speaker 2: but I prefer synchronicity, I prefer to be together, and

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Speaker 2: most of that is because people don't have a solid

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Speaker 2: baseline of how this could work well in any other fashion.

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Speaker 2: So synchronicity is the default for a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: They feel like reaching out and having conversations with people

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Speaker 2: or tapping someone on the shoulder. It feels very productive.

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Speaker 2: It makes you feel like you're contributing meaningfully to the organization.

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Speaker 2: But in truth, these types of meetings and ad hoc

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Speaker 2: interruptions are massively disruptive to the bottom line. They're massively

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Speaker 2: disruptive to people's mental health. It's very difficult to get

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Speaker 2: into a state of flow and make meaningful progress on

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Speaker 2: any line of work if you're continuously being interrupted. There

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Speaker 2: is a reason that Google is a machine and not

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Speaker 2: a person, because if someone just essentially taps you as

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Speaker 2: Google all day, you're going to get tired of answering

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Speaker 2: those queries at some point. So it's a fundamentally more

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Speaker 2: inclusive way to communicate your knowledge and to scale your

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Speaker 2: knowledge by writing it down once so that it can

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Speaker 2: be interpreted and used a limitless amount of times. But

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Speaker 2: it takes a culture that is understanding of that. And indeed,

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Speaker 2: if you look at the get lab onboarding process, we

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Speaker 2: lay out guides that explain exactly how to adopt a

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Speaker 2: self service mentality. We even have a handbook guide on

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Speaker 2: how to use the handbook. We have another guide on

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Speaker 2: how to search the handbook. We are very prescriptive and

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Speaker 2: articulate about the information infrastructure that we have set up.

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Speaker 2: We essentially see the handbook as yet another product or tool.

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Speaker 2: And so if you were coming into any company, you

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Speaker 2: would expect an onboarding to get used to a key

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Speaker 2: tool to do work, and we see the handbook as

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Speaker 2: a key tool to do work.

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Speaker 1: That's really cool. I want to talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: more about meetings, and obviously at git lab you default

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Speaker 1: to documentation instead of meetings, which I think is such

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Speaker 1: a key like such a key point for listeners who

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Speaker 1: are thinking how do we truly go remote to really

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Speaker 1: think about because we are so conditioned to defaulting to meetings,

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Speaker 1: it's the easiest thing to do. And I want to

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Speaker 1: know when you do have meetings at get lab, what

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Speaker 1: are the different rules that you have in place, because

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Speaker 1: I know there are some rules and guidelines for having

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Speaker 1: meetings at get lab. Imagine that it is quite a

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Speaker 1: significant thing if you're invited to a meeting it get lab,

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Speaker 1: given it's not the default. Is that fair to say?

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Speaker 2: It is fair to say, and there is some context

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Speaker 2: you need to understand here. It is easier for us

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Speaker 2: to get away with this at get lab because people

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Speaker 2: self select into get lab. You opt into get lab

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Speaker 2: even in the interview process. You know what you're getting into.

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Speaker 2: Everyone can read our handbook before they even apply here,

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Speaker 2: and so people come here because they want to work

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Speaker 2: this way. It is their default. And so we have

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Speaker 2: a like minded group of people that want to have

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Speaker 2: a bias towards a synchronous. In fact, bias towards a

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Speaker 2: synchronous is one of the sub values of our diversity,

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Speaker 2: inclusion and belonging value because it allows for a more

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Speaker 2: inclusive course of voices to contribute to a project. So

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Speaker 2: there's a five step process that, of course we have

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Speaker 2: documented on questioning every meeting. The first is what is

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Speaker 2: the outcome I am trying to achieve that has led

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Speaker 2: me to a desire to schedule a meeting. You need

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Speaker 2: to write that down and articulate that. Number two is

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Speaker 2: can the desired outcome be broken down into smaller tasks?

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Speaker 2: If you can break things down to more incremental pieces,

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Speaker 2: it's more likely that you can accomplish each individual element

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Speaker 2: of that through an asynchronous means. Number three is can

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Speaker 2: the desired outcome be achieved or work towards by dog

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Speaker 2: fooding and using a get lab issue or merge request. Now,

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Speaker 2: this is where it's important for me to point out

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Speaker 2: that all of get lab uses get lab the product

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Speaker 2: to collaborate. It is the heartbeat of our asynchronous workflow.

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Speaker 2: So if you don't have a tool like this, you

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Speaker 2: will need one. It is extremely hard to lean fully

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Speaker 2: into a synchronous using a hodgepodge of phone calls, carrier pigeons,

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Speaker 2: and email. You're going to need a tool at the

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Speaker 2: heart of it. The fourth one is am I trying

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Speaker 2: to gather consensus? If you are consensus gathering can be

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Speaker 2: done asynchronously. Anyone can open up a get lab issue

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Speaker 2: or a mural board or a Figma board and gather

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Speaker 2: input and consensus, and then you can save the meeting

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Speaker 2: until the decision making needs to occur. And even that

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Speaker 2: decision making, which is step five, we ask people to

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Speaker 2: consider can the decision be made asynchronously? And if it cannot,

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Speaker 2: then we default to a synchronous meeting, but we will

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Speaker 2: reserve that for the very end, and then if we

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Speaker 2: have to have a meeting, we make it quite difficult

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Speaker 2: for this to happen. Every meeting has to have an

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Speaker 2: agenda attached to the calendar invite, so that temporal documentation

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Speaker 2: takes place live during the meeting, and then the meeting

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Speaker 2: organizer is responsible for transcribing and contextualizing any takeaways from

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Speaker 2: that meeting into the get lab handbook, so that the

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Speaker 2: most amount of people can benefit from the knowledge that

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Speaker 2: was gained in that meeting. It takes a cultural mindset

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Speaker 2: company wide for this to actually work and be meaningful,

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Speaker 2: but our people fundamentally believe that synchronous time is very

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Speaker 2: precious and we would rather reserve that for informal communication,

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Speaker 2: for coffee chats, for team wide trivia sessions and scavenger hunts,

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Speaker 2: things that help us build bonds as a team, than

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Speaker 2: just another work meeting. Now, of course we still have

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Speaker 2: work meetings, but if we're rigorous enough to cut our

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Speaker 2: meetings down by even fifty percent, most people listening to

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Speaker 2: this would think, Wow, if I could have fifty percent

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Speaker 2: fewer meetings, I think my zoom fatigue would go away.

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Speaker 2: So we're not trying to eliminate meetings We're just trying

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Speaker 2: to have a thorough process so that you question it

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Speaker 2: because if you're going to have to write down the

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Speaker 2: takeaway anyway, we would love for you to start by

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Speaker 2: writing it down instead of doing double work with a

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Speaker 2: meeting first and then writing it down.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this has so many good tips in there. I

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Speaker 1: must say something that we've tried at INVENTINGUM, which I

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Speaker 1: got from a guest I had on the show maybe

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Speaker 1: a year ago. Brian Scutemore from one eight hundred got

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Speaker 1: chunk over in the States, and he says that he

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Speaker 1: won't accept a meeting unless it's got a PAYO, which

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Speaker 1: stands for purpose, agenda and outcomes. So a little bit

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Speaker 1: of crossover with what you've described there and something we're

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Speaker 1: kind of experimenting with at the moment at invent Him.

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Speaker 1: I mean, granted we don't have that many meetings, but

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Speaker 1: if someone sets a meeting, they need to have a

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Speaker 1: payout otherwise they can't put the meeting in the diary,

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Speaker 1: which just acts as a nice little barrier for people

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Speaker 1: to think, do I actually need this meeting or could

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Speaker 1: this be done some other way. I want to pick

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Speaker 1: up on a couple of things that you said there

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Speaker 1: when you were describing that process, and you said you'll

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Speaker 1: deliberately recruit people who have a bias towards a synchronicity

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Speaker 1: or a synchronous communication. How do you assess that in

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Speaker 1: a recruitment process.

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Speaker 2: We hire for managers of one, and if you google that,

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Speaker 2: as you would expect, you'll find a leadership page that

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Speaker 2: lays out what a manager of one looks like. We

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Speaker 2: hire for that, and we tell people straight up that

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Speaker 2: you're going to be writing a lot. And it's pretty

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Speaker 2: obvious early on whether someone is going to thrive in

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Speaker 2: an environment like that, so we're just open about it,

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Speaker 2: and we say, do you love communicating this way? Is

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Speaker 2: this how you prefer to work, because this is how

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Speaker 2: we work work. All of our interviews are done over zoom.

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Speaker 2: There is no in person element, so again, you're not

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Speaker 2: going to accidentally end up here. You're going to be

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Speaker 2: pretty sure of what you're walking into. But mostly we

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Speaker 2: look for great storytellers, people that love to think through

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Speaker 2: problems and communicate with high detail and low precision. We

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Speaker 2: can do writing exercises, but a lot of this just

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Speaker 2: comes through in storytelling. We love to ask questions of

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Speaker 2: tell me a time when you worked remotely, when you

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Speaker 2: moved a project forward, when you were in one place

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Speaker 2: and your cohorts were in another. And for some people

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Speaker 2: they answer, I've never been able to work remotely, That's

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Speaker 2: why I want a job here. But you can actually

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Speaker 2: dig a little deeper and say, well, have you ever

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Speaker 2: worked on let's say, a presentation while you were on

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Speaker 2: an airplane, or while you were in a hotel conference

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Speaker 2: center and the rest of your team was at work,

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Speaker 2: or the rest of your colleagues at university were in

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Speaker 2: the library. And then they'll usually say, oh, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: actually do have an example of that. It's like, well,

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Speaker 2: that's remote working. You might not have considered it remote working.

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Speaker 2: Indeed it was remote working. And we also like to

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Speaker 2: pull up our values page and in there you'll notice

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Speaker 2: a subvalue that says culture fit is a bad excuse.

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Speaker 2: What that means is we try to hire for values fit,

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Speaker 2: which is to say, we want to make sure the

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Speaker 2: get Lab values resonate with anyone joining the company, and

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Speaker 2: then we invite them to bring one hundred percent of

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Speaker 2: their full culture to make our culture better. So we

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Speaker 2: don't want to hire for culture fit, we want to

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Speaker 2: hire for values fit. And then increase the diversity of

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Speaker 2: the culture that comes along with that.

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Speaker 1: I like that distinction. Now, something else that you mentioned

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Speaker 1: is that if you're a completely remote company, it's really

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Speaker 1: important that you've got the right kind of software or

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Speaker 1: technology at the heart of that. Can you talk about

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Speaker 1: what sort of features does this key piece of software

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Speaker 1: need to make it work.

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Speaker 2: To do this right. It's roughly fifty percent tools and

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Speaker 2: technology and fifty percent culture, so you have to have both.

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Speaker 2: You can have all of the right tools, but the

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Speaker 2: leadership doesn't really embrace it, and it will probably falter.

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Speaker 2: You could have the best intentions of the world, but

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Speaker 2: as I mentioned earlier, if you're trying to do it

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Speaker 2: all over email and phone, you'll probably struggle. I generally

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Speaker 2: recommend to minimize your tool stack if you're transitioning into remote.

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Speaker 2: Get Lab really only uses four key products across the company. Now,

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Speaker 2: some of our departments use certain things like MARKETO and

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Speaker 2: Marketing Operations and Salesforce and things like that, but for

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Speaker 2: all of our team to collaborate as a team, we

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Speaker 2: use g Suite, we use Zoom, we use get lab

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Speaker 2: the product, and Slack for informal communication. So that goes

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Speaker 2: to show we really don't use Slack for work. We

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Speaker 2: expire our Slack messages after ninety days so that it's

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Speaker 2: only useful for informal communication. We want the work to

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Speaker 2: happen and get lab so the key piece there is

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Speaker 2: make sure you have a project management and collaboration tool

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Speaker 2: that strongly supports asynchronous inputs and workflows. Get Lab is

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Speaker 2: what we use. There are a host of others, but

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Speaker 2: it's on your IT and operations team to thoroughly vet this.

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Speaker 2: And I would say do a tools audit and make

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Speaker 2: sure that you have something there. And then of course

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Speaker 2: you have to document how you want people to work

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Speaker 2: in it. It has to be a user guide on

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Speaker 2: how to get work done so that everyone is leaning

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Speaker 2: into that same product instead of fracturing work and splintering

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Speaker 2: it here, there and everywhere. It really is key to

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Speaker 2: get universal buy in, and it takes time. For transitioning companies,

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Speaker 2: it takes time. It is a very jarring thing if

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Speaker 2: you are used to working one way and now you're

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Speaker 2: working another. But for those companies that want to put

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Speaker 2: in the effort now, in six to twelve months, you'll

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Speaker 2: be so thankful that you did, and you'll only wonder

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Speaker 2: why you didn't start this earlier. The truth is, everything

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Speaker 2: I'm saying is not remote exclusive. It is required in

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Speaker 2: a remote setting, but even if you go back to

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Speaker 2: being a co located company or a hybrid remote company,

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Speaker 2: all of this will make your company more cohesive and

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Speaker 2: more disciplined.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Now you mentioned culture, and I imagine this is

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Speaker 1: probably one of the questions you get asked the most.

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Speaker 1: How do you create a corporate culture without a physical office?

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Speaker 1: You know, especially for people that have never met their

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Speaker 1: coworkers face to face, which I imagine for a lot

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Speaker 1: of listeners would kind of blow their minds, even though

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Speaker 1: for you, this is your world. So what are some

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Speaker 1: of the key steps to building that corporate culture.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's two things I want to mention here. One

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Speaker 2: is paradoxical and one not so much, So I'll start

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Speaker 2: with the latter. In person matters. A lot a lot

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Speaker 2: of people assume that because get lab is all remote,

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Speaker 2: we never ever get together in person, and that's not

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Speaker 2: actually true. We get the entire company together for a

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Speaker 2: week long retreat, We go on excursions together, we build

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Speaker 2: bonds together. It's such an important week people will mark

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Speaker 2: it off as if nothing can touch this, and when

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Speaker 2: we hire new people, we proactively give them the next

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Speaker 2: available contribute and they they love it. They look forward

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Speaker 2: to it. I know when I joined the company, it

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Speaker 2: was one of the first things that I wanted to know, Hey,

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Speaker 2: when is the next get Lab contribute? I can't wait

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Speaker 2: to meet everyone. So forecasting in a post COVID world

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Speaker 2: where travel restrictions are lists lifted and we can do this,

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Speaker 2: I would say for leaders, make in person a core

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Speaker 2: part of how you build strategy. But with a hybrid

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Speaker 2: or all remote company, you're going to need to be

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Speaker 2: more intentional about when and where travel happens and how

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Speaker 2: you facilitate those very important in person interactions. So bottom

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Speaker 2: line there is don't try to do this without ever

435
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,639
Speaker 2: seeing anyone. We are relational, communal beings and in person

436
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 2: matters a lot. So here's the paradoxical one. The further

437
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 2: away you are as a team, the more you need

438
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,159
Speaker 2: to let go as a manager and allow people to

439
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 2: simply be where they are. So instead of having lots

440
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 2: of virtual happy hours and things of that nature, which

441
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 2: by the way, we do it get Lab, we prefer

442
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 2: to structure and atmosphere where people can do their work

443
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,120
Speaker 2: very efficiently and then leave war as soon as possible.

444
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 2: We want people to be able to go back home,

445
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 2: engage with their family, engage with their neighbors, engage with

446
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,679
Speaker 2: their community. That is what matters to them. They have

447
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 2: specifically chosen to work here so that they can be

448
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 2: in a place that matters to them, So we want

449
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 2: to empower them to be in that place as much

450
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 2: as humanly possible. So how that pours back into culture

451
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 2: is that I see a NonStop photo role on our company,

452
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 2: slack of pictures and stories and videos of people that

453
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,439
Speaker 2: are making meaningful impacts in societies all over the world.

454
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 2: We have people in over sixty five countries. It is

455
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 2: so fascinating to see how each person chooses to engage

456
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,719
Speaker 2: and interact in each of their communities. And when I

457
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 2: see that that builds culture, that tells me this is

458
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 2: exactly who this person is. The more curious and the

459
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,680
Speaker 2: more interesting the person is on your team for us,

460
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 2: the more it builds culture. So it is paradoxical that

461
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 2: we would encourage you to spend more time outside of

462
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 2: work to actually pour back into company culture. But when

463
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,879
Speaker 2: you hire a team that is specifically looking for that,

464
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:08,360
Speaker 2: that is indeed what happens.

465
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,680
Speaker 1: I find that quite interesting because I can imagine that

466
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 1: what you've described would make you feel very connected to

467
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 1: people that you're not seeing face to face on a

468
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 1: daily basis, and you know, maybe just seeing once a

469
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:23,679
Speaker 1: year or once a quarter face to face or something

470
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,199
Speaker 1: like that. And I'm kind of thinking about how you

471
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: say you recruit for values as opposed to do they

472
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 1: fit with the culture, And I imagine what happens. I

473
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 1: mean when I think about culture as a psychologist, I

474
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,120
Speaker 1: think about, well, it's a set of norms and behaviors

475
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 1: and so forth. It's almost through And can I correct

476
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 1: me if I'm getting this wrong, But because you're recruiting

477
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 1: people that have these really core values that get lab ofspouses,

478
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 1: then that's where the behavioral norms are coming in, because

479
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 1: you know, they do prefer this way of working. They

480
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: value things like kindness and humility and things like that,

481
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 1: and they then become the culture. Almost Does that make sense?

482
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's accurate. It's culture. Really in a remote setting,

483
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 2: culture is essentially equal to the values, because in most

484
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 2: co located spaces, culture is roughly defined by the paint

485
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 2: on the wall, the color of the lights, and the

486
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 2: brand of the coffee. That flavor of culture has always

487
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 2: been at risk of coming undone, and now in a

488
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 2: remote setting, it's glaringly obvious that that was never a

489
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 2: great way to define culture. It's really about how people

490
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 2: treat each other and how we see the world. And

491
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 2: when you write that down, you can interview for it,

492
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 2: and you can ask people does this work for you?

493
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,199
Speaker 2: And so culturally it ends up working out that we

494
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 2: have people that generally we love and get along with

495
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:56,120
Speaker 2: because they share our values, and values and culture are

496
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 2: very tightly connected, especially in a remote company.

497
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: And how would that work then if we've got listeners

498
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 1: that largely office space but at the moment are working

499
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 1: from home and they want to shift towards more of

500
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 1: at least a hybrid remote way of working, but they're

501
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:21,120
Speaker 1: worried about, well, how do they maintain the corporate culture

502
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 1: when they don't have the benefit of actually going back

503
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: to square one with everybody and recruiting for people that

504
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: genuinely have the same values. What do you recommend that

505
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 1: people do in that scenario.

506
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 2: It's a lot to unpack. I would start by acknowledging

507
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 2: that we're in a pandemic. So culture even in a

508
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:46,400
Speaker 2: well fine tuned remote setting looks different in a pandemic.

509
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 2: It is much less about company wide rah rah right

510
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 2: now and more about let's make sure each other are okay,

511
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 2: that we have the time, the space, whatever it is,

512
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 2: we need to just be okay. The bar is different

513
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 2: right now. Being okay and bonded as a team is

514
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 2: a fine bar. You don't necessarily need thousands of raw,

515
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 2: raw champions for your culture right now, So we'll start there,

516
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 2: but forecasting in a different space when we can get

517
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 2: back to that. It really comes down to leadership. Thriving

518
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 2: as a remote worker. You can only get so far

519
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 2: as an individual, and then there's a certain point where

520
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 2: the gate has to be lifted up and the rest

521
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 2: of that liberation in that atmosphere it has to be

522
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 2: enabled by leadership. It has to be enabled and modeled

523
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 2: by leadership. And frankly, now is as good a time

524
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 2: as any for leaders to question their values. To open

525
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 2: their website, look at what the values say and ask

526
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 2: themselves are these still relevant for the post COVID universe.

527
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 2: This is a massive sea change. This is a complete

528
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 2: re architecting of how many digital firms are going to

529
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 2: look and do work. Going forward, things might be different.

530
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 2: I encourage leaders to write down what's it like to

531
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 2: work here at my company, and if you're not thrilled

532
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 2: with the answer, you might need to change some things

533
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 2: coming out of this now. For individuals who might not

534
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 2: be in that leadership perspective, this is now a very

535
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 2: important time to get introspective and make sure that the

536
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 2: go forward plan at your company aligns with what you

537
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 2: want culturally. I do expect globally some short term attrition

538
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 2: as these shifting sands happen. People are going to take

539
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 2: a look at what the go forward plan is for

540
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 2: their company. And some people are going to say, you know,

541
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 2: I opted into a more rigid culture, a more co

542
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 2: located culture. This isn't going to work for me. I

543
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 2: may need to find a different place that is more

544
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 2: aligned with the current season of life that I'm in.

545
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 2: Some people are going to see this as an incredibly

546
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 2: progressive thing. They're going to celebrate it, and they're going

547
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 2: to be grateful that we're finally ushering ourselves into the

548
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 2: future of work. It's a strange and unfortunate way to

549
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 2: get here, but we're here nevertheless. So I wouldn't say

550
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 2: you have to satisfy one hundred percent of your workforce,

551
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 2: you just need to be extremely articulate on what the

552
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 2: go forward plan is and then help people that are

553
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 2: going to be on board with it, and then for

554
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 2: those that don't want to be there, maybe even look

555
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 2: to how the airlines have done voluntary exit packages. This

556
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 2: is an amazing time. These are not usual times. There

557
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 2: are not there's not a playbook for how this is

558
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 2: going to work out, So some extreme circumstances could see

559
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 2: their way to fruition.

560
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 1: Something I hear from a lot of clients that I'm

561
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: speaking to is, well, you know what about those serendipitous conversations,

562
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 1: Like they talk about the example of Steve Jobs, you know,

563
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 1: having the central kitchen and bathrooms. It picks hard to

564
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: create those serendipitous moments where ideas spring from from like

565
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: what do you say to that? And how like what's

566
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: the remote work equivalent of doing that?

567
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 2: So the funny thing about this story is that's not

568
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 2: serendipitous at all. It was literally planned. This is the

569
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: definition of planned innovation. The lobbies, the hallways, the restrooms,

570
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 2: the physical architecture of this building was specifically planned so

571
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 2: that people would talk to each other. That's the exact

572
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 2: opposite of serendipity. So in a remote setting you also

573
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 2: have to plan for engagements and interactions. Now this becomes

574
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 2: a lot more obvious if you have a tool like

575
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 2: get lab at the heart of your workflows, because anyone

576
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 2: can put down just a one sentence idea and then

577
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 2: share it company wide with a single link, and the

578
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 2: amount of feedback and incubation that can happen on that

579
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 2: is far more than you would get from just one

580
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 2: or two people randomly in a hallway. It is a

581
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 2: far more inclusive and expansive way to incubate this type

582
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 2: of innovation. You simply need a tool at the heart

583
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 2: of it to make it possible. So it sounds a

584
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 2: bit paradoxical, but you really do have to work to

585
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 2: plan innovation. And if you take a hard look at

586
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 2: any office that's ever been invented, office lobbies, office cafeterias,

587
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 2: these were intentionally designed structures for informal communication. So in

588
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,719
Speaker 2: a remote setting you have to recreate that. We use Slack.

589
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 2: We have topical channels where people can talk about specific things,

590
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 2: whether it's mental health or hiking, or a certain product

591
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 2: that kind of thing, or you can put meetings on

592
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 2: optional meetings with agendas that people can contribute to asynchronously,

593
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 2: so you have to plan for it. Remote makes you

594
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 2: be intentional about a lot of things that you're able

595
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 2: to take for granted in a physical space. But I

596
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 2: assure you, somewhere before you showed up at the office

597
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 2: there was some planning done to help encourage that type

598
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 2: of thing.

599
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 1: I love that answer. I think that's so good, and

600
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: it just makes it like it like for me, I

601
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: imagine you know all is get Lab employees commenting on

602
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: things that if it were just like a conversation in

603
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: some kitchen somewhere, they wouldn't have had the opportunity. So

604
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 1: it's almost like it just sounds like a more sensible

605
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: and better way of doing these conversations.

606
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 2: It is. It's well, it's the opportunity and abundance versus

607
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 2: scarcity mindset. And so for years people have thought two

608
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 2: or three people that happened to run into each other

609
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 2: in a hallway and have this amazing idea, Well that's

610
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 2: the new baseline. That is the gold standard. But when

611
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 2: you think about it, well, number one, it was only

612
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 2: three people, So what if that idea could be made

613
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 2: even better if three thousand people had access to contribute

614
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 2: to it without negatively impacting the schedule of any one person.

615
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 2: And then the other thing is you're not requiring people

616
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 2: to be available and online at the exact same time.

617
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 2: So running into each other in in a hallway, I

618
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 2: get it. I've been there. It is a pretty cool

619
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 2: moment when it happens, but it's an even cooler moment

620
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 2: when it happens in a remote setting, and you can

621
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 2: get a ton more feedback. You just have to create

622
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 2: the atmosphere where it works hundred percent.

623
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: And you mentioned that you use slack, but just for

624
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: social purposes, not for work purposes. Can you talk a

625
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 1: bit about how you have gone about creating the equivalent

626
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 1: of water coolored conversation and just those social connections when

627
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,760
Speaker 1: a lot of people would never have met in person.

628
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, the water cooler is yet another thing that is

629
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 2: intentionally designed in a physical space, and so if you

630
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 2: want that in a remote space, you have to intentionally

631
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,839
Speaker 2: design it. There are a certain set of forcing functions

632
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,280
Speaker 2: that we enlist to ensure that we remain remote first.

633
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:56,239
Speaker 2: And the reason the word forcing is there for a

634
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 2: reason because these are not natural. Necessarily, they are not

635
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 2: the default. Sometimes they feel a bit awkward at first,

636
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 2: but nevertheless they ensure that we retain and remain in

637
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 2: our remote first workflows, so inspiring our Slack messages after

638
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 2: ninety days is one of those. If you know that

639
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 2: your work is going to vanish after ninety days, then

640
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 2: it's a pretty great forcing function to start the work

641
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 2: where it's going to end up, which is in a

642
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 2: get lab issue or a get lab merge request. So

643
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 2: if we don't do long, lengthy work in Slack, the

644
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 2: only thing it's useful for is quick pings to usually

645
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 2: direct people's attention to a get lab issue or informal communication.

646
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 2: And this solves another major issue for remote teams, which

647
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 2: is where do we just converse as humans, not as colleagues,

648
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 2: but as humans. Well, if you aren't using Slack or

649
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 2: teams for work, now you can just converse as humans.

650
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 2: The great example I have of that is we have

651
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 2: a parenting channel, and now that so many parents have

652
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 2: children at home, they're dealing with remote learning for the

653
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:02,720
Speaker 2: first time ever. A lot of our parents are doubling

654
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 2: as teachers aids at the moment. This is an amazing

655
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,839
Speaker 2: medium where all of our parents can come together and

656
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 2: share tips all around the world of how they're doing it,

657
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 2: and they can trade shifts and work across teams. It's amazing.

658
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 2: I don't think this would exist if Slack was primarily

659
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 2: for work. People might not feel ass comfortable being themselves

660
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 2: and bringing things up, like hey, I'm a parent and

661
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 2: I need some help. But because we don't really do

662
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 2: work in there, it's a perfect place for that. This

663
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 2: is yet another example of not really reinventing the wheel.

664
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 2: A lot of companies use Slack and Microsoft teams, but

665
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 2: if you just use it slightly differently, now it becomes

666
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 2: this amazing enabler for remote work.

667
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 1: I think that's really interesting, and I think a lot

668
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,240
Speaker 1: of listeners will have Slack that they use for work

669
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,240
Speaker 1: and for social But I really do like the idea

670
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: of just kind of segmenting that out and just kind

671
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: of keeping it clean what it's used for. Something you

672
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 1: have said, I think I read it in I can't

673
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 1: remember whether it was your read me page, which I

674
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 1: do want to talk about. You said that being booked

675
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,760
Speaker 1: at one hundred percent is a risk. Can you explain

676
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: what you mean by this and how you avoid you

677
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: avoid that?

678
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 2: Yes, so that was on my read me page. So

679
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 2: being booked at one hundred percent is a risk, and

680
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 2: I've always thought this. It has always driven me mad

681
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:30,800
Speaker 2: to have a booked, a fully booked calendar, because most

682
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 2: the work that I'm most proud of has always come

683
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 2: during long, uninterrupted blocks of time. And there are a

684
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,399
Speaker 2: bunch of Ted talks and Simon Sinek and why work

685
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 2: doesn't happen at work. There's a bunch of supporting evidence

686
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 2: of why this is. But about a year ago, someone

687
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 2: asked me if I had heard of Kingman's formula, to

688
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,320
Speaker 2: which I replied, no, I have not, So I googled

689
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,800
Speaker 2: it and it's the mathematics behind this notion. And I

690
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 2: was so excited to finally find someone that is intelligent

691
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,320
Speaker 2: about math, that put actual data in numbers behind something

692
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 2: that I've long since known was true in my heart

693
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 2: of hearts. The crux of this is if you have

694
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 2: your entire day pre booked with meetings, it leaves no

695
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 2: room whatsoever for real life to happen. So if anything

696
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 2: at all happens, if your child stubs their toe and

697
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 2: you need to go address that, even for eight minutes

698
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 2: of your day, it has a massive oftentimes catastrophically negative

699
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 2: impact on your mental health, on the schedules of many

700
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 2: other people, and there's this cascading set of effects that

701
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 2: could go well beyond the day for a simple eight

702
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 2: minute ordeal at home. So I view that is a

703
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 2: massive risk. And if you extrapolate that over an entire company,

704
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,479
Speaker 2: if you have everyone booked at one hundred percent, where

705
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,399
Speaker 2: is the room for ingenuity? Teams are worried about serendipitous conversations.

706
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 2: Let me tell you, being booked at one hundred percent

707
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 2: is a guarantee that your company is going to have

708
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:07,479
Speaker 2: no innovation and no serendipitous conversations because there's no time

709
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 2: for that. So we actively block our schedules. At get lab,

710
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,919
Speaker 2: everyone has a public calendar by default. We encourage people

711
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 2: to go in there right as they're onboarding and block

712
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 2: out things like hours that you want to take your

713
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 2: kid to and from school, or hours that you prefer

714
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 2: to exercise, or hours that you prefer to be away

715
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 2: for lunch. Anything you can think of, feel free to

716
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,439
Speaker 2: block it. And when people book meetings and you see

717
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 2: something like hey, I'm exercising, you really do think twice

718
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 2: about booking over that. Because the golden rule, would you

719
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 2: really want someone to book a meeting time with you

720
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:43,799
Speaker 2: if you were doing something that was important to your

721
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 2: personal life.

722
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: I love that. It's funny. Like I myself, when I'm

723
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 1: looking at my calendar, I have my work calendar and

724
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: my personal calendar in GCL, and I sort of never

725
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: know whether to kind of merge the trees so that

726
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: people kind of know what I'm up to and maybe

727
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: not to book over. Yeah. I think that's really interesting, and.

728
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a common issue. And I will say one

729
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 2: thing that can help with that is a tool called clockwise.

730
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 2: They allow you essentially it merges the two calendars, but

731
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:19,760
Speaker 2: whenever you have a personal stop, it will just say

732
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,320
Speaker 2: busy on your work calendar. So not everyone is comfortable

733
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 2: being completely transparent about what is blocking, but at least

734
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 2: it automates the blocking process. So, look, your personal life

735
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:33,959
Speaker 2: is a big deal. I've there's a book called Time

736
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 2: Off by John Fitch, and in it he says that

737
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 2: your rest ethic is just as important as your work ethic.

738
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 2: And this is for the core of it. For me,

739
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 2: it is just as important for you to put meaningful

740
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 2: attention on when you're going to rest as it is

741
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 2: when you're going to work. It's just think of it

742
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 2: as inhaling and exhaling. If you only do one or

743
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 2: the other and never do the opposite, at some point

744
00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 2: this becomes a problem, and working and resting follows the same.

745
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 2: For Jaggery.

746
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: I like that a lot. Now, I do want to

747
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 1: talk about your read me page, which I'm going to

748
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: link to in the show notes. What it reminds me

749
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: of is I've heard Adam Grant talk about the idea

750
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: of creating a one page operating manual which answers a

751
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 1: few different questions around I think you know what your

752
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 1: strengths and weaknesses are, what your pet peeves are, how

753
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 1: to get the best out of me, how to respond

754
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 1: to feedback those sorts of things, and it's something that

755
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 1: you can then share with your teammates so that you

756
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,919
Speaker 1: can work more effectively together. I think that I'm sort

757
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:41,359
Speaker 1: of paraphrasing that somewhat accurately, and I feel like your

758
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,720
Speaker 1: read me page is kind of like an operating manual

759
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 1: to knowing how to work with you, or be it

760
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 1: one that is very, very detailed, which I love. Can

761
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 1: you talk me through well, I guess for people that

762
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 1: you know, I'm assuming that people will probably follow that

763
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,919
Speaker 1: link after hearing us talk about it. But for those

764
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: that haven't been to your read me page, what does

765
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,280
Speaker 1: it look like and how did it come about?

766
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,840
Speaker 2: That is a very accurate description. Essentially, my read me

767
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,720
Speaker 2: page is an operating manual of how you can quickly

768
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 2: get up to speed about working with me. It explains

769
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 2: how I like to be communicated with, what I hope

770
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 2: to earn in working with you, and what you need

771
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,240
Speaker 2: to know about me, things like personality type, my working style,

772
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 2: when I generally prefer to work, and there are some

773
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 2: videos and links that have been written about me so

774
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 2: you can find some additional context. This is useful for

775
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 2: many reasons, but it goes back to scaling knowledge. If

776
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 2: you're working with me for the first time, we've never

777
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 2: met in person. We might not even know what each

778
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 2: other looks like. It's probably going to take quite a

779
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 2: few hours at best to build some sort of rapport,

780
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 2: and there will be a lot of answering questions back

781
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 2: and forth for each other to get an understanding of

782
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 2: each other. This allows for a much more efficient process.

783
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,720
Speaker 2: You can read this entire page in roughly two minutes

784
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 2: and you'll learn more about me than it would take

785
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 2: you two weeks to learn this in person. I've been

786
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 2: around enough and heard enough feedback that I feel like

787
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 2: I can write this down and just get straight to

788
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,839
Speaker 2: the point. And an operating manual about people, if you're

789
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 2: willing to put it out there, is super beneficial because

790
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 2: other people then come to you and they know exactly

791
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 2: how to make your day more efficient, and then conversely,

792
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 2: they have a better understanding of how you're reacting to them.

793
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 2: So where did this come from? Two places? One the

794
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,720
Speaker 2: get Lab ceo. If you look up the Getlab ceo page,

795
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 2: he lists out very similar things, even talking about his

796
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 2: common flaws, things that he has received feedback on time

797
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,320
Speaker 2: and time again that he's still actively working to improve

798
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 2: upon as a human being. And I thought, well, if

799
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 2: our CEO could model that type of thing, maybe I

800
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 2: should write something like that as well. There's also a

801
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 2: gentleman named Jeremy on our team who created or read

802
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 2: me about himself that I used as a template and

803
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 2: I built on that. So kudos to Jeremy for writing

804
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:11,319
Speaker 2: that down first. Read me's for people aren't necessarily new,

805
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,359
Speaker 2: but I think read me as an operating manual within

806
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 2: a remote setting is incredibly powerful, especially for people that

807
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 2: aren't drafting on in person relationships. When you're genuinely working

808
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 2: with someone that's net new, it's a big deal.

809
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 1: I want to know for people that are thinking, oh,

810
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 1: that sounds like a great idea, I'm going to create

811
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 1: my own operating manual, what are some of the key

812
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 1: questions that people should be answering about themselves to make

813
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:39,720
Speaker 1: it really useful.

814
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 2: So the cool thing about anything in the get lab

815
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 2: handbook my read me included it's all creative commons and

816
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 2: all open source, so you literally can copy and paste

817
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 2: it and change it up and use it as a

818
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 2: template without even asking for permission. But the core areas

819
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:54,839
Speaker 2: that need to be in there are about you, what

820
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 2: you think you are, what matters to you, what makes

821
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 2: you a person, And then another second on how you

822
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 2: can help me, and then another section on your working style,

823
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,879
Speaker 2: one more section on what you assume about others, one

824
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 2: on what you want to earn, and then communicating with me.

825
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:16,720
Speaker 2: This is a really important one, especially in a remote setting.

826
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 2: I really like a synchronous communication. I really like written communication.

827
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 2: If you can engage with me over text instead of

828
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 2: jumping straight into a voice or video call. I generally

829
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 2: prefer that that is not the case for everyone, and

830
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 2: this is why it is very useful to have that

831
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 2: written down so so that there are as few misinterpretations

832
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 2: as possible.

833
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: Now, I have a couple of final questions for you

834
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 1: in the time that we have. My first one is

835
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:51,720
Speaker 1: what companies do you look to for inspiration on remote work?

836
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 1: Because I think before I discovered you and get Lab

837
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 1: via one of my teammates, Charlotte Rash, I got a

838
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,320
Speaker 1: lot of my inspiration definitely from the guys at base

839
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,240
Speaker 1: Camp and also Matt Mullenwig at Automatic and I'm wondering

840
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 1: where where do you look who else is doing it well?

841
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 2: Those two for sure. Shopify is another one that I've

842
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 2: been very encouraged by. They have made a move what

843
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 2: they're calling digital by default, and it is really hard

844
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 2: to transition to remote first or all remote, especially if

845
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 2: you had a co located culture. And they're doing it

846
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:28,760
Speaker 2: as well as any company I've seen at that size.

847
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 2: The being very open about it, very transparent about it,

848
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 2: and they're putting wellness front and center. I'm very encouraged

849
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 2: by that. The folks that doist have also open sourced

850
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,760
Speaker 2: a lot of their knowledge, which I think is amazing.

851
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 2: And there's another startup called Almanac. They're essentially building a

852
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 2: knowledge base and they're going to have version control in

853
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 2: this as well, so that you can use this to

854
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 2: build your own company handbook if you're a bit overwhelmed

855
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 2: thinking how can I replicate the get lab handbook for

856
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 2: my company? Almanac allows you to pull from open source

857
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:04,839
Speaker 2: templates from the world's best knowledge, so you don't have

858
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:06,959
Speaker 2: to start from scratch. So I think what they're doing

859
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 2: is incredibly powerful and it could not come at a

860
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 2: better time now that so many companies are suddenly remote.

861
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 2: So go to Almanac, and they have done the legwork

862
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 2: of finding the world's best open source knowledge on all

863
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 2: of this. And I'll close with one other thing, and

864
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 2: that's a ton of small companies you've never heard of,

865
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 2: but will in five years. I think what will happen

866
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 2: is in five to eight years, it's going to seem

867
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 2: like an overnight phenomenon that the percentage of all remote

868
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 2: companies is going to skyrocket. It's going to seem like

869
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 2: it happened overnight. But indeed what is happening is they're

870
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 2: all being born as startups in twenty twenty, when you

871
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 2: can't go to an office. They have no other choice.

872
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,720
Speaker 2: So they're simply building and scaling their team all remote,

873
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 2: and they're never going to know anything different. And then,

874
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:54,879
Speaker 2: of course some of them are going to grow and grow,

875
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 2: and then there will be a few massive exits and IPOs,

876
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 2: and it will seem to the mainstream that overnight this

877
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 2: became some amazing phenomenon. But pay close attention to the

878
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 2: small companies, the five, ten, fifteen, fifty person companies that

879
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 2: are doing this all remote. What they are writing down,

880
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 2: what they are building right now is a model for

881
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 2: how to do it, and a lot of that actually

882
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 2: can be scaled up and extrapolated even into larger legacy organizations.

883
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's such a good point. Now, something about your

884
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:27,719
Speaker 1: background that I learned when I was researching you is

885
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:31,479
Speaker 1: that you were managing editor for n Gadget for part

886
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 1: of your seven and a half years working there, and

887
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:36,360
Speaker 1: you were the global editor in Shape a tech radar.

888
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,240
Speaker 1: So I feel like I'm a bit of a geek

889
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:41,759
Speaker 1: when it comes to gadgets, but you're clearly at a

890
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 1: whole other level. I want to know what are some

891
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 1: of your favorite gadgets that you're loving right now, you

892
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 1: know that help you be better at remote work, or

893
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,760
Speaker 1: more productive, or just happier in general.

894
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 2: I love this question. So right now, the more monitors

895
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 2: the better. I have this immense workstation. It looks like

896
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:08,840
Speaker 2: something out of NASA, like I could launch rockets to

897
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 2: space from here. The more screen real estate the better

898
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,959
Speaker 2: it allows me to space things out, and it gives

899
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 2: me the way I look at it as mental space

900
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 2: and screen real estate space are very closely correlated, So

901
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 2: the more space I can have, the better. I also

902
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 2: love my sony mirrorless camera if you go to my

903
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:29,800
Speaker 2: read me. In fact, I have my entire videocam setup

904
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 2: and I love it. It's much better than a webcam.

905
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:34,799
Speaker 2: I do a lot of interviews and it's fun to

906
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 2: tinker with this. Yob, the CEO of remote dot Com,

907
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 2: has an even more amazing setup. Be sure to check

908
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 2: out the remote dot com blog for a look at

909
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 2: what he uses. I think this is a fun new

910
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 2: space all time. My favorite gadget is the MacBook Air.

911
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 2: It fundamentally reshaped computing. It's still one of my favorite computers. Ever,

912
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 2: I still keep one around as a secondary. I think

913
00:49:57,160 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 2: it's like ten years old now or something. It is

914
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:03,240
Speaker 2: amazing how productive it still is. My all time favorite

915
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 2: moment from covering technology for almost a decade is being

916
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 2: at what became Steve Jobs's final product keynote. So I

917
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 2: was fortunate to be in the auditorium for many of

918
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 2: the iPhone launches and the Mac launches, and it was special.

919
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 2: They didn't invite very many editors to those events and

920
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,239
Speaker 2: I was able to be there in person with what

921
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 2: became the final keynote from Steve Jobs and still have

922
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 2: the lanyard from that event, So very cool. Lots of

923
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:32,359
Speaker 2: great memories from that era.

924
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 1: Wow, that's quite amazing. And I did say that on

925
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:40,240
Speaker 1: your red me page there is literally list of your

926
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:45,359
Speaker 1: whole remote office setup, which was really cool. Is there

927
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 1: are there any gadgets that I guess sort of sit

928
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 1: outside of the office or things that just you enjoy

929
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 1: using for life, Like something I got recently is a

930
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,239
Speaker 1: smart skipping rope and I can't remember the name of

931
00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 1: the brand. I got it on the Apple Store, speaking

932
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 1: of Apple, and it basically counts the number of skips

933
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 1: that you do, which I'm currently getting a lot of

934
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 1: joy out of every morning. I'm going to do two

935
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 1: hundred skips and that will kind of warm me up

936
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 1: to do my home gym. I'm really loving that at

937
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 1: the moment. Is there anything in your life, maybe outside

938
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 1: of your office, that you're liking from a gadget point

939
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 1: of view, that's.

940
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:26,400
Speaker 2: A great question. I'm going to bend the answer to

941
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 2: this somewhat, and I realize that this is sort of

942
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 2: a North American centric answer, But I have a few

943
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:34,880
Speaker 2: credit cards that give me amazing perks at hotels and

944
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 2: airlines around the world. So for me, wanderlust is in

945
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 2: my DNA, and so when I'm not working at home

946
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 2: in a workspace that I've defined, I want to be

947
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 2: somewhere else. I want to be on the road. I

948
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 2: want to be exploring a new place, exploring a new culture,

949
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 2: and I want to travel as efficiently and as luxuriously

950
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,319
Speaker 2: as possible. And there are some fun credit cards that

951
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:57,799
Speaker 2: allow you to earn points and buy free travel. It's

952
00:51:57,800 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 2: amazing what you can do if you start digging down

953
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:02,839
Speaker 2: that rabbit hole. I actually spent a stint at the

954
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:05,399
Speaker 2: Points Guy. They are the go to resource on all

955
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 2: of this. So my fun out of office gadgets would

956
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 2: all be related to airline travel. I have a backpack

957
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 2: that I think is very efficient that we could nerd

958
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 2: out on for a while. But most of it comes

959
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 2: back to committing to an airline, sticking with them, and

960
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 2: then enjoying the perks that come from that.

961
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 1: Okay, but tell me about this backpack. I want to

962
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 1: nerd out on this backpack. Phase.

963
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:30,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a mountain hardware. It's mostly designed for mountaineering.

964
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:35,279
Speaker 2: It's designed for actually climbing mountains, but I have repurposed it.

965
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 2: It has great accessibility at the very top. And when

966
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 2: you think about conventional air travel, when you slide your

967
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:48,399
Speaker 2: backpack underneath the seat, a conventional backpack, the zippers don't

968
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 2: really open up in the right way. You have to

969
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:52,400
Speaker 2: pull it all the way out and then unzip it

970
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 2: around the front and then you can get to what

971
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 2: you want. But this backpack is expressly designed to be

972
00:52:57,320 --> 00:52:59,319
Speaker 2: accessed from the top, and so I just love the

973
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 2: organization and the compartmentalization because it works really well when

974
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 2: you have one shoved in the overhead and you don't

975
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 2: want to pull the whole thing down, or you have

976
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:10,319
Speaker 2: one shoved under the seat in front of you. You

977
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 2: might can tell that I'm a million mile around Delta,

978
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 2: and I really do spend a ton of time in planes,

979
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 2: and so something is nuanced in that really does improve

980
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 2: my quality of life.

981
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 1: I can totally understand that I do not have the

982
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:27,359
Speaker 1: ideal back for flying with Darren. My final question if

983
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:30,720
Speaker 1: people want to learn more about what you are doing

984
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 1: and connect in some way, what is the best way

985
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:33,920
Speaker 1: to do that.

986
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 2: You can find me on Twitter and LinkedIn. I'm at

987
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 2: Darren Murph on both of those. If you google get

988
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 2: Lab Remote Playbook. I authored that. I also authored Living

989
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,280
Speaker 2: the Remote Dream. This was a guy that I wrote

990
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:49,239
Speaker 2: after I set my world record at ngadget and had

991
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:52,239
Speaker 2: about a month off to travel between roles. So check

992
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 2: that out on Amazon and if you don't love it,

993
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 2: send me a note and the next round of ice

994
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 2: cream is on me.

995
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 1: That's awesome. I'll link to all of that in the

996
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 1: show notes. Darren, it has just been fascinating talking with you.

997
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 1: I've loved chat. Thank you so much for your time.

998
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 2: Absolutely, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate

999
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 2: the time.

1000
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 1: That is it for today's show. If you enjoyed my

1001
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 1: chat with Darren and know someone else that you think

1002
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 1: would find it, really useful, why not share the episode

1003
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:24,360
Speaker 1: with them? Just hit the share icon in wherever you

1004
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 1: listen to this podcast from and it's as easy as that.

1005
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:30,479
Speaker 1: So that's it for today's show, and I will see

1006
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:31,479
Speaker 1: you next time.