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Speaker 1: Now, in a report published by The Australian Today, written

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Speaker 1: by Matt Cunningham from Sky News, it's been reported that

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Speaker 1: Northern Territory teachers could soon be told not to call

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Speaker 1: students girls and boys to avoid offending children who might

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Speaker 1: be questioning their gender. Schools would also be encouraged to

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Speaker 1: organize non gendered sporting teams, physical education activities and sports

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Speaker 1: days under the plan being developed by the Northern Territory

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Speaker 1: Education Department. Now joining me on the line is the

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Speaker 1: Education Minister here in the Northern Territory, Lauren Moss. Good

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Speaker 1: morning to.

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Speaker 2: You, Good morning Katie, and good morning to your listeners.

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Speaker 1: Minister, why are you making these changes?

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Speaker 2: I just want to say from the outset that we're

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Speaker 2: actually not banning the youth of boys and girls in

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Speaker 2: Territory schools, and we're not telling schools to change the

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Speaker 2: way that they do their sports carnivals. What we are

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Speaker 2: doing is creating a set of guidelines that's actually in

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Speaker 2: line with our efforts to be more inclusive schools, that

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Speaker 2: focus on the well being and safety of all students,

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Speaker 2: and something that's very much in line with our education

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Speaker 2: engagement strategy as well. So it's about providing support teachers

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Speaker 2: and schools to make sure that all kids are feeling included.

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Speaker 1: But Minister, does this plan and do these guidelines in

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Speaker 1: their draft form include the plan to have non gendered

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Speaker 1: sporting days.

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Speaker 2: So, in terms of the document that's being discussed, this

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Speaker 2: was a very early draft of the guidelines from about

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Speaker 2: April last year which was shared with a very very

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Speaker 2: small group of stakeholders to start some discussions about things

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Speaker 2: like how we can how we can think more about

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Speaker 2: the language that we use in our schools to make

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Speaker 2: sure that all students are feeling included, or how we

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Speaker 2: might add to our sporting activities to make sure that

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Speaker 2: all kids are included. Because of course all of our

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Speaker 2: LGBTQIA students also need to be taught the sports curricular

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Speaker 2: and have those opportunities to participate, But.

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Speaker 1: Are they currently not being taught the sport's curriculum?

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Speaker 2: So of course those the curriculum is being delivered across

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Speaker 2: all our schools. This is about making sure that teachers

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Speaker 2: and schools are supported to do better for all of

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Speaker 2: our kids.

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Speaker 1: So do you feel also our teachers and schools are

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Speaker 1: our teachers and schools failing in this space? Currently no I.

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Speaker 2: Think our teachers in our schools do an absolutely tremendous job,

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Speaker 2: but I think in terms of supporting some of our students,

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Speaker 2: we need to make sure that as a system, we're

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Speaker 2: always providing those opportunities to learn about how we can

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Speaker 2: do better. And I know that students talk to me

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Speaker 2: about these issues all the time. Caterie, you know how

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Speaker 2: we can better support LGBTQI students across the Northern Territory

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Speaker 2: and how we can better support the well being of

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Speaker 2: all students. These are things that we need to make

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Speaker 2: sure we continuously improve.

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Speaker 1: Look, I want to say from the outset, I think

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Speaker 1: that absolutely everybody wants to make sure that every single

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Speaker 1: child feels included at school. I've got kids that are

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Speaker 1: both of school age and I would hate for them

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Speaker 1: to have anybody in their class, or anybody that participates

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Speaker 1: in any sport that they're involved in where they're not

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Speaker 1: included in any way, shape or form. But Minister, you've

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Speaker 1: said that this is an outdated draft. Where is the

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Speaker 1: most up to date draft.

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Speaker 2: So the most up to date draft is currently being

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Speaker 2: worked on by the department and there will be further

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Speaker 2: consultation on that into term two. So what I'm saying

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Speaker 2: is that that want that draft that's being discussed is

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Speaker 2: probably about a year old and was used to have

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Speaker 2: a conversation with some stakeholders.

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Speaker 1: So we're able to get a copy of the updated draft.

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Speaker 1: Are we able to see a copy of that updated draft?

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Speaker 2: So when that's finalized for consultation, Katie, I'll absolutely make

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Speaker 2: sure that you're aware of that, because I think it

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Speaker 2: is important that we're having conversations, respectful conversations about how

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Speaker 2: we're including all of our kids.

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Speaker 1: But so the draft that is currently being circular is

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Speaker 1: the draft that says that that teachers won't use the

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Speaker 1: words girl and boy in schools.

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Speaker 2: So in terms of that particular draft, there is a

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Speaker 2: section in that around language and how those people in

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Speaker 2: schools might want to think about using different language that's

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Speaker 2: more inclusive, and it gives some examples of that.

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Speaker 1: But that Minister, do you think that teachers Do you

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Speaker 1: think that teachers should be able to use the words

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Speaker 1: girl and boy at school?

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Speaker 2: As I said from the outset, we are not banning

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Speaker 2: the use of girls and boys in territory schools.

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Speaker 1: So do you think that they should be able to

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Speaker 1: use those words?

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Speaker 2: Of course, I do of course I do, but I

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Speaker 2: think it's important for us all to make sure that

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Speaker 2: we're learning about how we think about our language and

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Speaker 2: how we are using more inclusive language in our school.

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Speaker 1: Does the plan does the current does the current draft

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Speaker 1: plan include a plan to have non gendered sporting days?

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Speaker 2: So again, we're not telling schools to do anything differently

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Speaker 2: around their school carnivals. And yet there are a number

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Speaker 2: of schools that will already do mixed teams in a

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Speaker 2: range of different sports. And it's about just making sure

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Speaker 2: that people, but schools are thinking about those opportunities. Again,

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Speaker 2: to make sure that all students have opportunities to participate,

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Speaker 2: don't withdraw from you often see with something.

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Speaker 1: So let me just ask you again, does the plan

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Speaker 1: have does it actually have a plan to have non

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Speaker 1: gendered sporting days?

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Speaker 2: And again, Katie, I'll say, no, we're not telling schools

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Speaker 2: how to run.

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Speaker 1: Through but are the guidelines suggesting that they should the.

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Speaker 2: Guidelines is suggesting or at the Again, it's a very

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Speaker 2: it was a very early draft, I know.

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Speaker 1: But for a parent like me, and I know that

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of other parents that listen to this

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Speaker 1: show who've got children that are probably the same age

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Speaker 1: as my kids or older or younger that feel really

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Speaker 1: passionately that every single child should feel included at school,

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Speaker 1: but also feel very passionately that little girls should be

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Speaker 1: given the opportunity that if they want to play AFL,

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Speaker 1: that they're allowed to continue down that pathway that the

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Speaker 1: AFL has created.

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Speaker 2: Katie, absolutely agree with you, And as you know, because

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Speaker 2: I've been on your show previously when I was a

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Speaker 2: previous sports minister, I've been a passionate advocate for making

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Speaker 2: sure that we're investing in women's sport, and I don't

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Speaker 2: want to compound those two issues. I think it's incredibly

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Speaker 2: important that we note that these are guidelines and these

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Speaker 2: are around providing.

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Speaker 1: But Minister, if a school has got guidelines, if a minister,

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Speaker 1: if a school has got guidelines, that's suggesting that there

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Speaker 1: should be non gendered sporting days by the minister, and

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Speaker 1: it's coming from the top down, it's going to make

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Speaker 1: it quite difficult for them, Like it's going to be

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Speaker 1: quite a difficult thing then for the school to go. No,

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Speaker 1: we're going down the path where girls and boys are

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Speaker 1: going to have separate races.

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Speaker 2: Katie. Again, we're not suggesting that schools change the way

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Speaker 2: that they do sports carnivals. I've said that from the outset,

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Speaker 2: and the department is developing a set of guidelines that

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Speaker 2: has very much been in draft, so it's not final.

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Speaker 2: It was not final in April twenty twenty one. It

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Speaker 2: was far from final, and there will be further consultation

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Speaker 2: and discussion about it. But we're not suggesting that girls

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Speaker 2: won't have the opportunity to participate and compete in sport

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Speaker 2: and with other girls at all. I think elements of

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Speaker 2: a very very draft set of guidelines have been pulled

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Speaker 2: out and are being discussed in isolation.

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Speaker 1: So are we able to see a copy of the

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Speaker 1: updated draft? Because if there is a copy of the

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Speaker 1: updated draft, and this is a really old draft that

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Speaker 1: we're talking about a year old, then presumably there'd be

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Speaker 1: an updated copy that we're able to see.

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Speaker 2: So again, that's in development, and when that is finalized,

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Speaker 2: that will be released for consultation. And I'll definitely make

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Speaker 2: sure that you have a copy of Bat Katie and

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Speaker 2: you can see that. But obviously the department wants to

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Speaker 2: make sure that we get this right. We want to

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Speaker 2: make sure that we're having respectful conversations in the community.

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Speaker 2: And so we want to make sure that those guidelines

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Speaker 2: are out, that we are sharing them for a good,

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Speaker 2: respectful conversation about these issues.

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Speaker 1: Does a copy exist, Minister? Is there an updated copy

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Speaker 1: or is it a situation here where the Department and

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Speaker 1: yourself are backtracking after that press conference yesterday, Because I

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Speaker 1: know that you got asked a lot of these questions

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Speaker 1: yesterday at that press conference as well.

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Speaker 2: So again there's a working copy, Katie. I did get

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Speaker 2: asked some questions yesterday in a press conference about a

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Speaker 2: draft copy from April twenty twenty one. Now, obviously some

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Speaker 2: of the timelines around consultation for that were pushed back

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Speaker 2: because the department's been dealing with getting our schools back

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Speaker 2: in turn one in the middle of heightened COVID cases,

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Speaker 2: and that's absolutely where their focus should be. So they

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Speaker 2: are having a look at the moment, they're seeking further

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Speaker 2: advice and we will finalize those guidelines or finalize that

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Speaker 2: draft in a form that can be taken to the

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Speaker 2: public for consultation. But I don't want to run a

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Speaker 2: public commentary. Well, Minister, I think it's a document from

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Speaker 2: April twenty two.

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Speaker 1: But if that's a consultation document, and if this is

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Speaker 1: something that we're wanting to have meaningful consultation with the

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Speaker 1: community about, then there is going to be running commentary

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Speaker 1: because there's going to be people that you know that

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Speaker 1: feel quite passionately on every area of the spectrum.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and that's why I'm saying consultation will be incredibly

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Speaker 2: important to this. We've had ongoing conversations, but we're not

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Speaker 2: we're not consultating. Sorry, we're not consulting on the document

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Speaker 2: from April twenty twenty one. We will be taking a

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Speaker 2: document that has had a lot more work on it,

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Speaker 2: where we have looked at other jurisdictions and what they're doing,

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Speaker 2: and where we have had more consultation with students, with families,

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Speaker 2: with educational leaders and relevant stakeholders. We can take that

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Speaker 2: to the community in a form that is much better

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Speaker 2: than the original draft that came out in April twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty one.

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Speaker 1: So, Minister, will the updated plan or will the updated

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Speaker 1: copy include the plan to have children use the toilet

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Speaker 1: showers and sleep in the same quarters as their affirm

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Speaker 1: gender or all you know, boys and girls if they're

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Speaker 1: on school camp, for example.

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Speaker 2: So the version that we will consult on obviously with

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Speaker 2: more work on it will be have a much broader

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Speaker 2: inclusion focus. And so again you know when that's ready,

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Speaker 2: I'll make sure that there is a copy and that

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Speaker 2: you're aware of that, Katie and able to talk about

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Speaker 2: what's in that. But we are one of the last

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Speaker 2: jurisdictions I understand to be doing this work. We're not

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Speaker 2: the only ones who have done it. Obviously, we need

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Speaker 2: to make sure that we have a sthetic guidelines and

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Speaker 2: that we're supporting schools to best support all of.

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Speaker 1: Our well, we know that. Anthony Albanezi was asked about

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Speaker 1: this a little bit earlier this morning at a press

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Speaker 1: conference nationally. He says that this matter is covered by

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Speaker 1: the Sex Discrimination Act. He was pushed on his personal

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Speaker 1: views by journalists about whether you know whether girls should

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Speaker 1: be able to play sport separately to boys. He said

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Speaker 1: that girls should be able to play sport against girls

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Speaker 1: and boys should be able to play sport against boys.

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Speaker 1: It's covered by the Sex Discrimination Act and sports currently

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Speaker 1: are in control of this issue. The question was indeed

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Speaker 1: asked after that article that was published in The Australian

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Speaker 1: Today reporting that teachers in the Northern Territory would be

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Speaker 1: encouraged to organize non gendered sports teams. Minister, I think

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Speaker 1: the question that a lot of people will be asking

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Speaker 1: themselves this morning is why is the Education Department drafting

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Speaker 1: this document, if indeed it is currently things like sports

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Speaker 1: are currently covered by the Sex Discrimination Act.

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Speaker 2: Well, I just want to again from the outsets, I'm

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Speaker 2: not talking about competitive or elite sport here, and we're not.

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Speaker 1: But neither am I talking about about standing girls and boys.

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Speaker 1: Neither am I I'm talking about sport in school as well.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about school sports. Minister.

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Speaker 2: Well, yes, so we're talking about school sports, but we're

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Speaker 2: also talking about a whole range of other areas of

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Speaker 2: inclusion for students who can be vulnerable on a whole

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Speaker 2: range of different measures. And it's I guess for me

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Speaker 2: in terms of why is the Department of Education doing this?

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Speaker 2: Probably for the same reason that we also provide guidelines

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Speaker 2: and support for supporting students with additional needs, disability, or

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Speaker 2: you know, we have to make sure that we are

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Speaker 2: supporting teachers and schools to support the individual needs of students.

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Speaker 2: Our LGBTQI students in some cases may need additional support.

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Speaker 2: They might need additional health support, they might need additional

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Speaker 2: counseling support, and it is really important that we are

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Speaker 2: thinking through what supports we need at a school level

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Speaker 2: and how we're providing that. And so while I know

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Speaker 2: that there's particular elements of these kind of you very

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Speaker 2: old draft document that are of particular interest to the community,

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Speaker 2: it's actually much broader than that. It is about making

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Speaker 2: sure we've got the right well being support in schools

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Speaker 2: for these students in the same way that we do

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Speaker 2: for many other cohorts of students across the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 1: All right, let me ask you again very quickly, because

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Speaker 1: you've said that there is an updated draft document. Does

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Speaker 1: that draft document include guidelines discouraging teachers from using the

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Speaker 1: term skirls and boys?

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Speaker 2: So I understand that when that when that document is finalized,

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Speaker 2: that it takes a much broader view around inclusion. So

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Speaker 2: while I know it will refer to language and thinking

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Speaker 2: about the language that we use, again, we are not

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Speaker 2: banning the words boys and girls. We would not do that.

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Speaker 2: We are not doing that, and I want to be

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Speaker 2: very very clear about that fact. So we will always

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Speaker 2: have conversations about how we can have respectful conversations across

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Speaker 2: our schools. We're going into a period of time where

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Speaker 2: we'll be also doing respectful relationships and consent education and

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Speaker 2: all of those boots difficult.

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Speaker 1: Well, I guess things like that are going to be

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Speaker 1: really difficult to do if teachers aren't able to use

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Speaker 1: the term girl and boy specifically when you're talking about

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Speaker 1: something like sex education. Well, yeah, I mean, this is

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Speaker 1: the worry though that I guess people have, And I

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Speaker 1: know that Europe pains to say that it is a

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Speaker 1: draft document, but then nobody's seen the updated documents. So

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Speaker 1: can you understand why people are feeling as though maybe

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Speaker 1: you've actually, you know, been caught on the hop here

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Speaker 1: and you're backflipping.

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Speaker 2: Oh look there's again. This is a document that was

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Speaker 2: provided to a number of stakeholders in April twenty twenty one, Katie.

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Speaker 2: So you know, in terms of I'm pleased at the

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Speaker 2: Department's actually in a place where they have developed this

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Speaker 2: work substantially since that point in time, and we haven't

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Speaker 2: put out, you know, different versions of the draft every

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Speaker 2: time we have one. We want to get that to

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Speaker 2: a point where we think it's in a position to

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Speaker 2: take out for further discussion. That's actually standard government procedure

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Speaker 2: to be honest. So you know, I think again we've

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Speaker 2: gone out to some targeted consultation. It's really important that

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Speaker 2: we can do that and that we can have those

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Speaker 2: conversations with our stakeholders.

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Speaker 1: But so there is still consultation on this take it

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Speaker 1: out to the public, and so there is still consultation

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Speaker 1: though on this very draft document from from April twenty one, there.

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Speaker 2: Was consultation at the time, but there will be further

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Speaker 2: consultation on where that document has landed, on where those

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Speaker 2: guidelines have landed. Yeah, absolutely they will be all.

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Speaker 1: Right, Minister. There's a lot of people questioning on the

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Speaker 1: tech line and in various other forums, why the Education

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Speaker 1: Department is spending such a huge amount of time, as

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Speaker 1: you've just it's about a year in the making so far.

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Speaker 1: Why there is so much time being spent on this

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Speaker 1: and not making sure that our kids are going to

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Speaker 1: school in much higher volume.

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Speaker 2: Well, again, I think in terms of why aren't kids

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Speaker 2: going to school, inclusion and well beings are really important

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Speaker 2: part of getting kids to school and engaging them there.

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Speaker 2: So it's actually an important part of that work in

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Speaker 2: terms of how much time the Department's spending. Again, I

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Speaker 2: know that this has got a lot of attention. And

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Speaker 2: obviously there is a very old the Guidelines that has

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Speaker 2: made its way into the public and that's getting a

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Speaker 2: lot of the attention. There is an awful lot of

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Speaker 2: work that happens in the Department of Education, Kadie and

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Speaker 2: we talk about that often, and you know that that's

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Speaker 2: the case. We're doing work on secondary provision in remote areas.

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Speaker 2: I was just down in Alice Springs last week announcing

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Speaker 2: a Sunset School for in the afternoons to engage kids

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Speaker 2: down there and teaching culture and language. You know, we're

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Speaker 2: having national conversations about how we are improving the entire career.

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Speaker 2: This is one piece of work being run by one

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Speaker 2: part of our department, and I know that it's got

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Speaker 2: a lot of attention. But that doesn't mean that it's

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Speaker 2: the only thing that the Department of Education is focusing on.

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Speaker 2: But well being, inclusion is important, and I will make

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Speaker 2: that very very clear that I think it is a

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Speaker 2: vital part of engagement in our school. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Look, I don't think anybody is disputing that in any way,

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Speaker 1: shape or form. I think that what people are quite

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Speaker 1: sort of you know, they're they're a bit perplexed about

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Speaker 1: at this point is how we can reach a point

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Speaker 1: in school where a teacher's being discouraged from you know,

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Speaker 1: from calling a child a girl or a boy, or

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Speaker 1: or saying good morning children, good morning, you know, good

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Speaker 1: morning girls and boys. And you know that we don't

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Speaker 1: as a society actually believe that a lot of our

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Speaker 1: wonderful teachers and the you know, everybody that works in

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Speaker 1: those schools you know already really in a lot of

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Speaker 1: cases does so much to make sure that every everybody

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Speaker 1: feels included.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, they do an amazing job. I know that

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Speaker 2: I'm the daughter of teachers myself, so I see it

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Speaker 2: day in day out, and I have for pretty much

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Speaker 2: my entire life. So this is not This about providing

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Speaker 2: teachers and schools with additional support. And again I'll say

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Speaker 2: as I did at the top, and I have all

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Speaker 2: the way through. This is not about telling anybody that

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Speaker 2: they can't use boys and girls in schools. But language

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Speaker 2: does matter, and making sure that we are listening to

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Speaker 2: what students are telling us they need.

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Speaker 1: Matners, Minister, just before I let you go, I know

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Speaker 1: that we're fast running out of time, but just before

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Speaker 1: I let you go, have we got a situation here

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Speaker 1: with this consultation paper. When it does go out, are

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Speaker 1: we going to be are you going to be consulting

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Speaker 1: with who exactly to make sure that we get this right?

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Speaker 2: So I understand that there's a plan to get that

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Speaker 2: on the Have Your Say website. I don't know the

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Speaker 2: exact date and timing of that. Obviously COVID's push a

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Speaker 2: few things out, but I'll certainly be having that conversation

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Speaker 2: with my department. We've obviously been having ongoing conversations with

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Speaker 2: Anti cogso who are Parent rep Body, the Education Union,

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Speaker 2: the Anti Principles Association for example, Headspace I think have

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Speaker 2: been on our list of people that we've been talking

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Speaker 2: to all the way through, and obviously having conversations with

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Speaker 2: the Office of Gender Equality and those sorts of bodies

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Speaker 2: within government as well, So it will be a heavily

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Speaker 2: consulted piece of work. They're talking to other jurisdictions about

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Speaker 2: what they're doing as well, and you know, I think

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Speaker 2: it's really important.

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Speaker 1: Well, Minister for Education, we always appreciate your time. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for speaking with us this morning.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Thanks Katie, bye bye now