1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:01,600 Speaker 1: Hello there. 2 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 2: I am taking a little break over Christmas, so I've 3 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 2: handpicked a bunch of my favorite interviews from twenty twenty 4 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 2: two to play while I'm away. And if there are 5 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 2: any people you'd like to hear from in twenty twenty 6 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:17,639 Speaker 2: three on how I work, drop me a note via 7 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 2: the socials. You can find me on LinkedIn under Amantha 8 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 2: Imba and on Instagram at Amantha I. It's nineteen eighty seven. 9 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 2: An American university student is helping to organize a protest 10 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 2: rally at school and it's told to visit a little 11 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 2: coffeehouse called Cappuccino. He does, and as the crowd falls 12 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 2: silent in wait, and as yet undiscovered protest songwriter named 13 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 2: Tracy Chapman takes the stage. That student was Brian Koppleman, 14 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 2: who would go on to executive produce Chapman's first album, Yes, 15 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 2: the One with Fast Car on it. For being an 16 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 2: exec even in the music business, wasn't Brian's dream. He 17 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 2: wanted to be a writer, and so with his best 18 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 2: friend and co writer David Levine, Brian holdaway in the 19 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 2: basement to write his first screenplay, Rounders, and has since written, produced, 20 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 2: and directed a number of critically acclaimed films. He's now 21 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,320 Speaker 2: one of the showrunners of the hit TV show Billions. 22 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 2: Brian's also obsessed with how creatives do their work. He 23 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 2: hosts the Moment of podcast about what makes creative people 24 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 2: tick and how they turn their inspiration into art. But 25 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 2: what about the working life of Brian, the creator of 26 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 2: so many shows and movies that millions of people all 27 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 2: over the world have loved. We dig into what makes 28 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 2: Brian tick at work, covering everything from his morning pages richel, 29 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 2: to his writing routines to becoming a producer and a showrunner. 30 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 2: My name is doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an organizational psychologist 31 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 2: and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Invent Him And 32 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 2: This is How I Work, a show about how to 33 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 2: help you do your best work. Brian has held a 34 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 2: number of job titles in the movie and TV business. 35 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 2: At any one time, he's been a showrunner, a screenwriter, 36 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 2: a director, and a producer. But it started with writing, 37 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 2: writing in a basement with nobody but his co writer, 38 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 2: working on a movie called Rounders. So what did that 39 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 2: very first screenwriting process look like? 40 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:51,959 Speaker 1: It was so hard one because I was a blocked 41 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: writer for so long and what that really means is 42 00:02:54,560 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: I wasn't being a writer, and something in me was 43 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 1: quite dissatisfied with myself really, And so I will tell 44 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: you that when I finally broke through and found a 45 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:15,239 Speaker 1: way to produce work, it meant so much to me. 46 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: You know, I'll just back up and tell you. You know, 47 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: I was thirty years old, twenty nine thirty. I'd I was, 48 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,079 Speaker 1: you know, moving along in a career that was going well, 49 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: but something inside me felt like it was dying. And 50 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: this really came to a head when Amy and I 51 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: had our first child, and I wanted to be the 52 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: kind of person who would tell his kid to chase 53 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: their dreams. And somewhere in me I knew I wasn't. 54 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: And it wasn't a commercial dream, it wasn't a market 55 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: center dream. It was about creating something. It was about 56 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: taking the risk to be some kind of an artist. 57 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: And I had this thought that if you allow a 58 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: creative death is like any other kind of death. If 59 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: I allowed that creative spark to die, it would become 60 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: toxic and it would ooze onto the people I loved, 61 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: and it would become I might become bitter. I might 62 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: become exactly the kind of person I didn't want to be, 63 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:17,359 Speaker 1: and that's sort of what drove me to do this. 64 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: And so to answer question, when I was finally doing 65 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: the work, Amy cleared out a storage space underneath our apartment, 66 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: a basement in New York City. The storage space was 67 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 1: a tiny little It had a slop sink in it, 68 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: a basically room for one chair at a half a desk, 69 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: and I would sit on the floor. My partner, Dave, 70 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: who I would do all this stuff you just named with, 71 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 1: he would type in that first one mostly and in 72 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: two hours every morning we met and we wrote that script. 73 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: And those two hours I felt so alive during those 74 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: two hours of the day that it actually allowed me 75 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: to be much better the rest of the day. Those 76 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 1: two hours, and they were hard, right, learning to really 77 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: be a writer and really write a screenplay and sort 78 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: of approached that with an incredible rigor. It was really challenging, 79 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: but I felt so much like I was becoming the 80 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 1: person I wanted to be that when I would leave 81 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: there and then have to go to my job and 82 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 1: go to meetings, I was so much better because I 83 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: was able to engage, almost like you'd gone to the gym, 84 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: and once you put in a really rigorous and ritualistic 85 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: kind of a workout routine, it kind of like sets 86 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: you up for the rest of the day, and that 87 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: set me up for the rest of the day. 88 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 2: I'm wondering, how much do you remember about what happened 89 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 2: in those two hours every day? Like, how would you start? 90 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 2: How would those first five minutes work? 91 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 1: One thing we did that turned out to be lucky. 92 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: I think that I would say it was a smart 93 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: thing to do, but really we were feeling our way 94 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: through it, So I don't know how much of it 95 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: was that we were smart about it. But we outlined 96 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: the script and what that looked like was before we 97 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 1: got there in that room, we were meeting, and maybe 98 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 1: we'd meet at a diner when I got off work 99 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: or something like that, or in a morning before I 100 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: went to work, when Dave got off bartending shift, and 101 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: we would kind of talk through what this story might be. 102 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: And you know, I had walked into a poker club 103 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 1: late one night and played cards and realized that was 104 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: this Dave and I've been talking writing a movie, and 105 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: that that's probably where we set it around. But we 106 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 1: would really talk about, you know what how do we 107 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: want to tell this story about the New York poker underground. 108 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 1: Who were the characters. So we did a lot of 109 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: work ahead of time on thinking about who these characters were, 110 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 1: what they wanted, and what kind of obstacles would be 111 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: in their way. And so we did that work for 112 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: a long while, and then the first day we went 113 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 1: and began turning that outline into a screenplay. We had 114 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: weren't meeting that very first day. We didn't meet in 115 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: the storage space. Then Amy Klean and out. That first 116 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 1: day it was Columbus Day, which is a holiday in America, 117 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: and we so my office was closed that day, so 118 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: we met in my office and that day we had 119 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: a yellow legal pad and we were the only people 120 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: in the It was big office, and we were the 121 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: only people there that in the whole place. And we 122 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: spent that day probably three hours, and we wrote the 123 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: first eight nine ten pages of Rounders, fairly close to 124 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: what it ended up being. And so then when we 125 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: would go into the room, we were adding on to 126 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: that and we would try to write a scene or 127 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: two scenes a day. We would talk through. We had 128 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: an outline, so we knew, well, this scene's supposed to 129 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: sort of be like this, and then we would talk 130 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: to each other about what the spark in the scene 131 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: might be, what the conflict in the scene might be. 132 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: I might tell Dave some story about something that happened 133 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: in a poker room I was at once. He would 134 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: maybe tell me about in ourment he witnessed, and then 135 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: we would set to writing. And on the first one 136 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: he typed. Most of the time I would I would 137 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: I would sit on that thing, but most mostly then 138 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: I would stand when we were actually writing, I would 139 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: be standing up kind of behind them, leaning forward, and 140 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: we would just kind of talk out the scenes to 141 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:18,559 Speaker 1: each other. And I'd say we did that for four 142 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: months and then had the script, and then I would 143 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: then that and then the other part of it is 144 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: at night. You know, we would take it home on 145 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: floppy discs. Back then, this is nineteen ninety six, ninety seven. 146 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: You know, we're writing on a little computer with floppies, 147 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: and I would take the floppy disk home and put 148 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:38,079 Speaker 1: in my computer at home, my desktop computer at home. 149 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: I would print out those pages and I would read 150 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: through what we did and make little notes. And then 151 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: the next day, maybe perhaps we would start with oh, 152 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: these little shifts and then we would we would move forward. 153 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: And I remember David had written a manuscript before and 154 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: us screenplay before, so he understood better than I did 155 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: that the pain was worth fighting through. Like maybe we'd 156 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: get to an hour in and if a scene wasn't coming, 157 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: I would be like, well, let's pick up here tomorrow. 158 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: And he sort of taught me in a way that 159 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 1: I've kept to this day, which is, no, you get 160 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: to the end of the scene, you can fix it tomorrow, 161 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: but we're going to get to the end of the 162 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:16,679 Speaker 1: scene now. 163 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 2: When Rounders went into production, your screenwrinning career again in Arnest, 164 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 2: and you've said that it also served as a crash 165 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 2: course in film school. Can you tell me what you 166 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 2: mean by that. 167 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 1: We were invited to be on set every day of 168 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: the making of the film, and that was because we 169 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: had kind of taken it upon ourselves to find the 170 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: right director for the movie, which was not in our 171 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: job so portfolio at all, that's the purview of the producer, 172 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: but we didn't want to leave it to the fates. 173 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: And we were just young enough but not too young, 174 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 1: just young enough really to underst try to do it ourselves. 175 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: Through a series of things we were able to so 176 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: in a way, since we brought the director to the party, 177 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: he then extended back to us the invitation. And because 178 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 1: we were expert in the story, we were expert in 179 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: poker in a way that nobody else was. And we 180 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: were around the same age as the lead actors, and 181 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: so we realized we had the opportunity to be on 182 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 1: set every day. We consciously decided to treat it like 183 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: film school, meaning we decided we were going to ask questions, 184 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: not willing nilly and not sort of while people were 185 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: trying to do their jobs. But if I wanted to 186 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 1: understand what the cinematographer was thinking about, I would ask 187 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: at lunchtime, or I would ask at the end of 188 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: the day, or I would say, can we have dinner. 189 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: The director, John Dall, who's someone we work very closely 190 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: with to this day. He directs on both of our shows, 191 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 1: and he's a dear friend to this day. John was 192 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: really great about explaining stuff to us. I'm staging the 193 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: scene this way because it's from this point of view, 194 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: and if we stage it from here and the cameras 195 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: are here, it sort of demonstrates that. And he would 196 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: kind of walk us through that and walk us through 197 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: first principles of how to think about staging and shooting 198 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: a scene. And because it was happening in front of 199 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: us and we were a part of it, and questions 200 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,199 Speaker 1: would come to us about the intention of a scene 201 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: or about a line, we were really a part of 202 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: making that movie. But we were also getting our education. 203 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 2: That's quite unusual to be writers on a set. Like, 204 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 2: what sort of other insights do you feel like you 205 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 2: got as a writer at that stage in your career 206 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 2: that you just wouldn't have got had you not been 207 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 2: on set every day? 208 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 1: Well, a huge one. I mean really learning how to 209 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: talk to actors. 210 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 2: Now. 211 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:53,599 Speaker 1: I had acted in college, I had directed plays. I 212 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: knew a bit about that, but the time pressure of 213 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: a film or a television show, the stakes because of 214 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: how much money everybody's spending, the various egos, So learning 215 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: how to manage that relationship with the artists who's going 216 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: to translate your work is really important. Then some of 217 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 1: that is watching. Some of that is engaging and having 218 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,839 Speaker 1: it go well, or engaging and realizing you didn't really 219 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: know exactly what to say or you didn't know how 220 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: to listen correctly, and also learning how not to hold 221 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: on too tight, how to if you know what the 222 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: scene needs to do and an actor has another way 223 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: to get there, knowing that you can hear the actor out, 224 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: and if you're willing to listen in a posture of calm, 225 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 1: genuinely not just a part, If you're genuinely willing to 226 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: listen for the better idea. Actors are so highly attuned 227 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 1: emotionally that they can feel that, they can feel you're 228 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 1: not defensive. And then if the better idea is to 229 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: steer them back to the original idea, they're very willing 230 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: to go there. And those are all things that someone 231 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: can tell you, but until you're there doing it. And 232 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: also you realize how much stuff you can cut out, 233 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: because how much stuff can just get accomplished by the 234 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: way an actor looks in another actor you know on 235 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: the page for your first screenplay. Everybody, I think wants 236 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 1: to make sure nothing is missed. I want to make 237 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: sure I communicate everything, and so you might put too 238 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:26,439 Speaker 1: much in the scene. But when you're standing there and 239 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: you're looking on the monitor through the camera you're watching, 240 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,959 Speaker 1: and you see two actors meet eyes, it can almost 241 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: be wordless sometimes and that's a great look. I love 242 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: for both characters. I love characters who speak in bursts 243 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: of dialogue, but I also know what the limits of 244 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 1: that are. And that can only happen if you've been 245 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: part of shooting and editing something that's. 246 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 2: Been about twenty five years since you and David write Rounders, 247 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 2: And I'm curious, what does your writing process look like now, 248 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 2: Like what have you kept from those original days in 249 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 2: the basement to now that you know, you guys, I 250 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 2: guess are working most actively on Billions. 251 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:17,559 Speaker 1: What we've kept is that the story itself is still 252 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: something that we like to work out together with a 253 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: bigger group of people. You know, we have someone who's 254 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: come in and helped on both Super Pumped and Billions. 255 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: Beth Shackter is a woman who's become a partner helping 256 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: us show run both shows, and so she'll sit with us, 257 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: and we have a writer's staff as well. But if 258 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: it's an episode that David and I are writing ourselves, 259 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: we'll take some input from people and talk stuff through, 260 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: and then the two of us will talk about the 261 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: story a lot, and then we'll start passing documents back 262 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: and forth. We don't write over the screen together anymore 263 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: rotating who's typing. We write separately, but together. We'll sometimes 264 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: be in the same room, but I'll be at my 265 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: desk and he'll be at his. So we'll outline an 266 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: episode together. We know what the story is, and then 267 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: we will break up the scenes in half, and you know, 268 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: just kind of rotating them. We'll put our initials throughout, 269 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: like one of us will just put DLBK dlbk, and 270 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: then we'll write our scenes and then we kind of rotate. 271 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: We'll put them into a master document, and one of 272 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: us will go first and rewrite the whole document, and 273 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: then the other person will go and rewrite the whole document, 274 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: and then we'll send notes back to one another. I mean, 275 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: you know, David's been my best friend since we're fourteen 276 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: fifteen years old, so we're like brothers, but without any 277 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: of the baggage of having been raised by the same 278 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: people in the same home. So it's a very easy 279 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: relationship in terms of our ability to communicate about these matters. 280 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 2: So when you're going off to write your own pages, 281 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 2: your own parts of the scripts, can you talk me 282 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 2: through what that process looks like. 283 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, and it's a bit different pre and post 284 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: pandemic took me through so pre pandemic. I guess are 285 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: two main ways. One is I love to write on 286 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: a couch. If I can be on a couch or 287 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: a laptop in my lap and my big head and 288 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: at home, if I'm on a couch, I don't need 289 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: headphones necessarily. I can have music playing on the stereo. 290 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: I always have to have music playing, or ninety nine 291 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: percent of the time I have music playing when I'm writing, 292 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: and I try to. I have to pair the music 293 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: with the scene I'm writing in some way. It has 294 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: to it has to relate to what I'm writing, either 295 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: in counterpoint to it or supporting it. 296 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 2: Oh, can you give me a couple of examples of that, 297 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 2: Like how you pay music to sing? 298 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: Well, it's all throughout the show. I mean, it's all 299 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: throughout everything that we do. Like when you hear the 300 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: music on the show, A lot of the time that's 301 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: music that was written into the script because I was 302 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: writing to that music. Wow, and those things are you know. 303 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: I guess a key example would be Tom Petty's even 304 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: the Losers Guy was Writing, which is a central song 305 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: to episode eleven of the second season of billions, and 306 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,679 Speaker 1: I mean I just remember writing and writing to that 307 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,200 Speaker 1: song and then realizing that song would take us through 308 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: the whole episode and it had thematic unity with the episode. 309 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 1: And I would say that's constantly happening. Again, not every 310 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: episode or every scene, but very very often. That's the 311 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,679 Speaker 1: way that that happens. And for David as well, he 312 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: doesn't write with music as much, but he's thinking about 313 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: it too, and the other way that I'll write, So 314 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: it's a couch. But I also really like there's a 315 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: restaurant in my neighborhood in New York called Red Farm, 316 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: and it's a Chinese restaurant and the owner just passed away, 317 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: but he was a dear friend and I would go 318 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: into the restaurant many weekends. So during the week I 319 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 1: might be on a couch on set somewhere. I always 320 00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:58,719 Speaker 1: have a couch at my offices so that I can 321 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:00,959 Speaker 1: write on it. And we have a bunch of offices 322 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: depending on what stages we're on to shoot the shows. 323 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 1: But on weekends, which is when I do a lot 324 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: of the writing, especially if we're in season, I would 325 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: go to the Red Farm, this restaurant. I would get 326 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: at small booth I would get a big pot of 327 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: oolong tea and I would just sit there and put 328 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: my headphones on and write. And you know, I write 329 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: in about two hour bursts, usually still, and then take 330 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: a walk, and you know, if it's there's a deadline, 331 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: perhaps I'll go to Red Farm right for a couple hours. 332 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: You know, I probably start at home, right on the couch, 333 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: then feel like, okay, change the scenery, go walk over 334 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 1: to Red Farm, which is just a five minute walk, 335 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: sit there for a couple hours, and then you know, 336 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: perhaps by then that would be it for the day, 337 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: or I'd come back into another hour at home. And 338 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 1: the best part of it is when you're kind of 339 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: not aware of any of that when you're working. And 340 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:03,679 Speaker 1: when I'm working and I feel hyper present and at 341 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: the same time barely tethered to the ground. I'm just 342 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: somehow existing in this ether that's betwixt and between, and 343 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: I'm hardly aware of what's happening between the music and 344 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: the tea and the you know, spices of the food 345 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 1: or whatever. I'm just in a different place. And obviously 346 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 1: I can do that without tea or without you know, spices, 347 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 1: and that's you know, that's the that's the joy. That's 348 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: the kind of the the pleasure of doing this. Because 349 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 1: the story part is very hard. 350 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:38,120 Speaker 2: Uh. 351 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 1: The part of outlining and breaking story and and and 352 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:43,440 Speaker 1: for me anyway is hard. 353 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 2: Uh. 354 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: But the writing of scenes once that work has been done, 355 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,400 Speaker 1: meaning the actual writing of the dialogue and figuring it out, 356 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: and that may mean changing story too as you're going. 357 00:19:54,119 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: That part is the part that is what may to 358 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 1: be willing to do all the other work. That's the 359 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 1: part that's the kind of even when it's very difficult, 360 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 1: it's kind of pure joy. 361 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 2: What makes the story part so difficult, I think. 362 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: I'm working from different parts of my brain when I'm 363 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: breaking the story parts really analytical and like math, and 364 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: I hate math. Writing the dialogue is like painting or 365 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 1: something you know, or like playing the guitar and writing 366 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 1: a song. It's a it's for me, that's the part 367 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: that feels like I'm unleashed, whereas the other part feels 368 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: like if I'm doing it right, it just requires so 369 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: much rigor and focus. 370 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 2: That's really interesting. And so like with the I guess 371 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,479 Speaker 2: with that flow state that you described, when you're writing 372 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 2: dialogue working on scenes, do you find it easy to 373 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 2: just switch into that gear. Like when you've got your 374 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 2: music and you're at the restaurant or you're on a couch, 375 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 2: does that flow state come to you quite quickly? 376 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: Yes, I mean I don't want to really say that, 377 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: but yes, I mean, like getting to sit down. I 378 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 1: have bad ADHD, you know, really diagnosed bad ADHD, and 379 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: so getting to this sitting down is fucking hard for me. 380 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: But once I'm doing it, then that part of it. 381 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: If that part of it isn't going, then the other 382 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 1: parts weren't done right, then the story's fucked up, or 383 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 1: then the actual project isn't what I should be working 384 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: on because I'm not connected to it. But yeah, the 385 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:43,880 Speaker 1: part of it where making making characters talk, moving them 386 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: around a setting, imagining what's going to all that stuff 387 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:52,199 Speaker 1: is pleasurable to me. It's hard, but it's pleasurable. And 388 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: it's you don't always I mean, I would say, you know, 389 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 1: you don't always get into that level of flow state 390 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: that I'm describing. That's the part that that's the part 391 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 1: that makes it all worth doing. But it is relative. 392 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: The more I've done this, the more that it happens, 393 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 1: and it is relatively easy to fall into that space. 394 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you said getting to the couch though, that's 395 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 2: the challenging part. So what tricks have you found to 396 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 2: get yourself to the couch to start writing. 397 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 1: I mean, the morning pages are the best trick in 398 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: the world, right, Julia Cameron describes them in the artist's way, 399 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 1: and that's the life changer for me. I mean, that's 400 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: the thing I did at thirty to figure it out, 401 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 1: and it's still the thing. I mean, I still do 402 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: that every morning. Yeah. 403 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 2: For those that are not familiar with morning pages, and 404 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 2: I must say I've experimented with them myself, can you 405 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 2: talk about what your process for doing morning pages is. 406 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:50,880 Speaker 2: I find some people sort of tweak it a little bit. 407 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: I do not. I do it exactly as Julia Cameron describes. 408 00:22:55,040 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: The only tweak, sorry, the only tweak is I meditate first. 409 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: And I asked Julia when she was on my podcast, 410 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 1: and she'd prefer if I did the pages first and 411 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: then meditated. But so I do meditate first. But then 412 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 1: the next thing I do in my day is I 413 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: open a journal and I write three Longhand pages and 414 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,159 Speaker 1: I just do not stop my pen from moving. I 415 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 1: don't race through it. But I'm I'm keeping my so 416 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: I take a breath and I'm in it. I'm aware 417 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: of what I'm doing, but I am just allowing myself 418 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: to write any thought that comes down, and I will 419 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: not stop moving the pen, and I don't read it over. 420 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 1: You know, if an idea comes up during it that 421 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 1: I think is useful for something, some creative project or something, 422 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: I'll immediately transfer it. But then I do not go 423 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 1: back to those pages, as she says, don't go back 424 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,199 Speaker 1: for five years, or maybe never go back. And it 425 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: is a way to get your subconscious going. It kind 426 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,160 Speaker 1: of I think of it as tipping my subconscious out 427 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 1: onto the page. It also gets rid of the detra itis. Man, 428 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: it's like the I think it's like the mental equivalent 429 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,920 Speaker 1: of drinking the water first thing in the morning and rehydrating. 430 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: I somehow just feel better having done it. So that 431 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 1: and meditation and also walks, like walking helps, exercising helps 432 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: all that stuff that just gets rid of the wanderlust 433 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: or whatever it is that keeps me from doing the work. 434 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: Books sometimes, I mean, sometimes I'm picking up the guitar 435 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: and noodling around and putting on music and reading a book. 436 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, straightening up there looking No, I 437 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 1: don't want to paint a picture that's impossible to attain. Like, 438 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 1: it's hard to get yourself to do the work when 439 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: you're someone with ADHD and your job is to produce 440 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 1: pages and television. It's like a hard for me. You know, 441 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 1: it's not hard work compared to like real backbreaking work 442 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:47,919 Speaker 1: that a lot of people do, But for me, that 443 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: stuff's hard. But I've gotten better and better at it 444 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 1: and it's something I continue to work at. And I 445 00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: think also having a partner where I have to deliver 446 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: for him helps because Dave can't hand in the script 447 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 1: until my part's done right, so I can't be the 448 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,199 Speaker 1: person that's making our team suffer. And like when I 449 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: wrote the one movie that I wrote alone that we made, 450 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: Solitary Men with Michael Douglas. I wrote that by myself, 451 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: and it was a much harder process. It was before 452 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,679 Speaker 1: I meditated. That was twenty two thousand and nine. I 453 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,440 Speaker 1: think that we made that movie and I started meditating 454 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 1: in twenty eleven, so maybe that would have helped. But 455 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: that took me years to write that movie, and partially, 456 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: partially I think because it wasn't like well, Dave's going 457 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 1: to have his pages done Sunday, so we agreed on that, 458 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 1: so I have to get mine done Sunday too. 459 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 2: It's interesting that, yeah, using that like almost like an 460 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,479 Speaker 2: accountability buddy, which which I really something that is a 461 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 2: lot of quite common amongst guests that I've spoken to. 462 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 2: We will be back again with Brian soon where we'll 463 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 2: be talking about where his best ideas come from and 464 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 2: how he knows whether he has an idea that's even 465 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,439 Speaker 2: worth pursuing. And if you're looking for more tips to 466 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 2: improve the way you work, I write a short fortnightly 467 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 2: newsletter that contains three cool things that I've discovered that 468 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 2: helped me work better. You can sign up for that 469 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:28,640 Speaker 2: at Howiwork dot co. That's how I Work dot COO. Now, 470 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,719 Speaker 2: the thing that listeners would probably be most familiar with 471 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 2: in terms of your work is the show Billions, and 472 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,199 Speaker 2: you are what is called a showrunner. And I imagine 473 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 2: that there are a lot of listeners that have no 474 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 2: idea what a showrunner is, So could you explain what 475 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 2: that is? What that involves? 476 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: The showrunner on a television series. The closest equivalent would 477 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 1: be if someone were a director and producer on a movie. 478 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: So the showrunner is responsible for or overseeing the shooting, 479 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:09,479 Speaker 1: the creating, so the writing and the shooting and the 480 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: casting and the editing and the post production of the show. 481 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: And the showrunner is involved in overseeing the marketing, you know, 482 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: dealing with the marketing department and approving all their great ideas. 483 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: Now we work with incredible professionals who run the departments 484 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 1: that actually do all those jobs or many of those 485 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 1: jobs that we don't do personally. But we are responsible 486 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 1: for delivering the show. We're responsible for every aspect of 487 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: delivering the show. And that is so we hire the 488 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: directors and then it's our job to talk to the 489 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: directors about what the show should be like and answer 490 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 1: their questions and help them. And we have the final 491 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: cut on the episode, so the director doesn't cut, and 492 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: then we do with our editors. And so the showrunner 493 00:27:54,760 --> 00:28:00,880 Speaker 1: is really the person or people charged with safeguard the tone, 494 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 1: spirit of the show and the physical shooting of the show. 495 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 2: Now, you mentioned research before when you were talking about 496 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 2: rounders and how you know you'd spend a lot of 497 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,679 Speaker 2: time in poker clubs, and I think I've heard for 498 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 2: billions you hang out with real life billionaires. I'd love 499 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 2: to know. I like, do you have a kind of 500 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 2: a specific approach that you take when you're researching to 501 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 2: try to get inside a world? 502 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,919 Speaker 1: Well, an immersive approach for sure. Yeah. I mean it's 503 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: funny when someone writes about it it's hanging out with billionaires. 504 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: I mean, it's interviewing them and embedding with them the 505 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: way a journalist might. At times, I'm not hanging out 506 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: with them, like certainly in the beginning, by seven years 507 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: into making the TV show, there are a couple of 508 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: people who have achieved that kind of success who I've 509 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: become friendly with and I might go play sports with 510 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: or something like that. That said, even when I'm doing that, 511 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: they know and I know that I'm paying attention. I'm 512 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: not fully losing myself because I'm I'm not them, I'm 513 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 1: not of them. I'm a different thing. I'm the artist. 514 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: I'm a writer, I'm an observer. We're spending time, but 515 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: with a very clear purpose, and that purpose is to understand. 516 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 1: I mean, all this goes back to curiosity, which is 517 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: a cornerstone of anybody who wants to write or tell 518 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: stories or be any kind of an artist. I think, 519 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 1: which is to have tremendous men of curiosity about your subject. 520 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 1: And so in the poker clubs, I love poker. I 521 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 1: was pretty obsessed with poker. And as soon as I 522 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: heard these people speak though that other people are there, 523 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 1: they're just thinking about poker. I'm there and I'm like 524 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: listening to their language, you know, and I'm why do 525 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: you talk that way? What does that mean? How did 526 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,239 Speaker 1: you become you? What got you here? I mean, I'm 527 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: immediately just thinking of all those things, like how's this 528 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: person in this basement playing in this game now? Like 529 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: what does he do when he leaves here? Like how 530 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: does he make peace with what? Just ha, I'm just 531 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: That's the way that I go through life. You know. 532 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: That's probably why I became a writer, right, And so 533 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: that's when you're doing the research. I mean, that's the process. 534 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: It's books and conversations and going to places and keeping 535 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: your eyes and ears open. It's basic. I think I 536 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: never took a journalism class, but I imagine a lot 537 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: of it is stuff that's taught in a journalism. 538 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 2: Now you've been working on Billions for seven years and 539 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 2: you're also working on Super Pumped. I want to know like, 540 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 2: where's the space for new ideas? And I guess, like, 541 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 2: what I'm curious about is like, I'm sure that you 542 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 2: would get ideas all the time, but how do you 543 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 2: know when it's an idea that is worth pursuing given 544 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 2: that your schedule sounds quite busy. 545 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: Curiosity? It comes back to that, right, what keeps me 546 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 1: engaged and curious and wanting to know more. It's super 547 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,479 Speaker 1: pumped happen because we know we read this manuscript, this 548 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: book that Mike Isaac wrote, and it spoke to us. 549 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 1: It was like, we want to know every thing about 550 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 1: this world, and we want to and it seemed fascinating. 551 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 1: We wanted to tell it. So much of this is 552 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 1: not intellectual. You eventually have to apply your intellect to 553 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: the problem at hand, like to prosecute the questions. But 554 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: the the falling in to it is not an intellectual 555 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: process for me anyway. It's an instinctive process. It's a 556 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: tactile process. It's a you know, it's it's about something 557 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 1: that kind of makes me stay up late and think 558 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: about it or wake up first thing in the morning, 559 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: and I find myself journaling about it, and I find 560 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: myself sending texts to Dave and you know, first thing 561 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: in the morning or uh, it's not. I think from 562 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 1: the beginning it wasn't like I walked into a poker 563 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 1: club and thought the market to see this. I thought, 564 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: I want to immerse myself in this. I want to 565 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: know everything about this. I want to understand these people. 566 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: Oh fuck, this could be a movie. That's the method 567 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: by which I can gain an understanding of this. And 568 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: if I love it and I'm fascinated by maybe other 569 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 1: people will be too. I think we can make this 570 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: fucking great. If we make it great, maybe this is 571 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: the way we become screenwriters. Like it's very much that's 572 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: the order of If I had to reduce it to thoughts. 573 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: I mean, it's all I can say instinctive, But if 574 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: I had to break into thoughts, that's probably the way 575 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 1: I would order those thoughts. 576 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 2: Now, because of everything you've done, I imagine that a 577 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 2: lot of people approach you for feedback on their work, 578 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 2: and I'd love to know why. When someone asks you 579 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 2: for feedback, you respond with what kind of feedback do 580 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 2: you want? 581 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: Well, that's only really like fellow professionals. Most of the time, 582 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:56,480 Speaker 1: all I can say is no, I can't hear I 583 00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: can't read because like the lawyers, truly don't let me, 584 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 1: and the lawyers basically explain the risk and I then say, no, 585 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: I won't. But let's say somebody who is a fellow 586 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: professional who is represented. I know she won't sue me 587 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: if I read her thing. And then someday she thinks, oh, 588 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: there's a project. You know I wrote about a bowling alley. Hey, 589 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: this thing is about darts. I think they stole my idea. 590 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: But yes, if a fellow professional says, will you read, 591 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: I will say, what kind of feedback do you want? 592 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 1: Because sometimes what somebody wants is just encouragement. That's mostly 593 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: a waste of time. But if they want real feedback, 594 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: if they want me to really get in there, I 595 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: will give them full, detailed notes. And that won't always 596 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: be a pleasant conversation, but the hope is it will 597 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 1: lead somewhere good. And I'll tell you my friend, our 598 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: friend Craig Mason did that for us on the Bills 599 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 1: pilot script and it was invaluable. Our friend El would 600 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:08,320 Speaker 1: Read did that too. They read the script and Craig 601 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: is one of the best green writers in the business, 602 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: gave us two hours of conversation because he noticed some things. Hey, 603 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,359 Speaker 1: the way you get into this scene is confusing. Let's 604 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,399 Speaker 1: talk about what else you could do to get into it. Hey, 605 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:23,800 Speaker 1: here's a moment. It would be good to be alone 606 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,279 Speaker 1: with the character and bond and you don't take all 607 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 1: those ideas, but as the questions get raised, it forces 608 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 1: you to reevaluate the work. And I try to do 609 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 1: that for my friends. We do that for each other. 610 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: But civilians can't really take that kind of feedback. They 611 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: don't really want it now. 612 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 2: Feedback, of course, is a request on your time, and 613 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 2: I would imagine you would get all sorts of people 614 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,720 Speaker 2: reaching out to you to ask you to do things, 615 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 2: like me asking you to be on how I work. 616 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 2: And I'm curious as to how you make those decisions, 617 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 2: like what you say yes to and what you say 618 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 2: no to. 619 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,879 Speaker 1: I mostly say no no. I like this podcast, That's why, 620 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: and I think it's a fascinating subject matter and maybe useful. 621 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,360 Speaker 1: So like maybe someone who wants to be a showrunner 622 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 1: a screenwriter, maybe this is useful. I think about this 623 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: all the time. A couple of things. One, my kids 624 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:17,319 Speaker 1: are older now, so in some ways it's easier when 625 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: my kids were younger, and I had to really take 626 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,840 Speaker 1: that into account and wanted to take that into account. 627 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,280 Speaker 1: But if I can be playing guitar and writing songs, 628 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 1: that's what I want to do. So I want to 629 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: protect that time in reading, you know, reading. I would 630 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,280 Speaker 1: say the other thing, like, if we go back slightly, 631 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: the thing that made me want to do this to 632 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 1: begin with is how much I love reading, how much 633 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 1: books have given me, and I still try to protect 634 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,479 Speaker 1: enough time to read. I still read like a couple 635 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 1: books a week, and that's really, really, really important to me. 636 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 1: So everything gets fit in around time I spend with 637 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: my wife Amy, who is also a great filmmaker, writer, novelist, 638 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: you know, and my work responsibilities exercise and you know, 639 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: do that and within that, then I try to just 640 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: pick a few things that I'm willing to do. 641 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,760 Speaker 2: What's your approach to saying no, because I imagine, having 642 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,799 Speaker 2: said it so many times, I imagine you probably have 643 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 2: some different strategies that make saying no easier or quicker 644 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 2: for you. 645 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,839 Speaker 1: I try to say no very quickly. What you said 646 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: is exactly right. I try to say no very quickly 647 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: and very directly. I can't do this. I try not 648 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: to say, check back with me in six months. If 649 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 1: I say that, I mean it at the time. I 650 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 1: try not to say that. I try to really think 651 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 1: about whether I'll ever do the thing, but I just 652 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 1: say a quick no, it's not going to I can't 653 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,320 Speaker 1: do that now. I don't really give a huge explanation 654 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: usually because they want the yes or the no really, 655 00:36:55,920 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 1: so I try to be definitive and I try to 656 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 1: be quickly responsive. I this just happened the other day. 657 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: Someone asked me, and I just said, they asked me 658 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:11,879 Speaker 1: for a blurb. I had just read read a book 659 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 1: and given a blurb to somebody, an older writer I 660 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 1: read this who wrote an incredible His work had meant 661 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: a lot to me. He asked me to read the book. 662 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 1: I won't give a blurb if I don't read the book. 663 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 1: I read the book, and then so happened. I finished that, 664 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:25,280 Speaker 1: and I got a request from somebody to do a blurb. 665 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 1: And at first maybe they wrote me a few months ago, 666 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:29,239 Speaker 1: and I said, I'm just not sure. I don't think 667 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 1: I have the time, and they wrote me again, and 668 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:32,400 Speaker 1: I just wrote back and I said, I can't do 669 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,880 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I wish you well, and I meant to. 670 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:36,959 Speaker 1: I said, I said, a real accomplishment to write a book. 671 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:38,919 Speaker 1: I just don't have the time to read your book, 672 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 1: and that you know, that's true. 673 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,279 Speaker 2: So I'm impressed that you're reading two books a week. 674 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 2: I think I heard a statistic that the average person, 675 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 2: or maybe the average American reads one book a year. 676 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,120 Speaker 1: Which, come on, that can't be true. That can't be true. 677 00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:00,839 Speaker 2: I know right like that. That gave me a heart attack, 678 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,160 Speaker 2: that statistic, And he's very depressing. As someone that does 679 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:07,400 Speaker 2: write books, like I'd love to know maybe, like in 680 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 2: the last six months, given you know, that's a sample 681 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,360 Speaker 2: of about fifty books, what's one of the books that 682 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:15,239 Speaker 2: has had the biggest impact on you. 683 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 1: I am in I will tell you. I'm reading a 684 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: book right now that is so fucking good and it's 685 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:26,759 Speaker 1: not what I normally read, and it is just incredible. 686 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:30,240 Speaker 1: And I'm just going to get the exact title books. 687 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: I don't want to get it wrong. Here, Burning Boy, 688 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 1: The Life and Work of Stephen Crane by Paul Auster, 689 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 1: And this book is a biography of Stephen Crane, great 690 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: American writer from the late eighteen hundreds. Paul Auster, though, 691 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,400 Speaker 1: is I think the writer I read most closely in 692 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:58,400 Speaker 1: my twenties, and he is an incredible fiction writer. He 693 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,359 Speaker 1: has written some of my favorite Boo books. I haven't 694 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 1: read him as closely over the last ten or fifteen 695 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 1: years for whatever reason. Things go in seasons. But I 696 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: saw this book in the bookstore and it's it's, you know, 697 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:13,839 Speaker 1: like six hundred page biography of a writer that I've 698 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 1: read read Badge of Courage like everybody else, but I 699 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 1: haven't read anything else by Crane. I don't think though 700 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:20,759 Speaker 1: I'm going to now read all of it. I haven't 701 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,440 Speaker 1: read anything else by Crane except Red Badge of Courage. 702 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 1: So I left it in the bookstore one day and 703 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:28,719 Speaker 1: then I went I love bookstores, my favorite place to go. 704 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,360 Speaker 1: I went back two weeks later. I started staring it 705 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,719 Speaker 1: again and I was like, you know what, something's calling me. 706 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,719 Speaker 1: This book's calling me. And I started reading it, and 707 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 1: I just have to tell you it is the most 708 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: magnificently written book about America and this guy and capitalism 709 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:52,919 Speaker 1: and war, and it's amazing halfway through and it's slow going, 710 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 1: like I read. I do read two books at the 711 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:57,960 Speaker 1: same time, like Off and On have a fiction nonfiction 712 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:01,360 Speaker 1: book going and I say two books a week. It 713 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:03,480 Speaker 1: might be two books in ten days and then three 714 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:07,320 Speaker 1: books over the next whatever. But I do have two books, 715 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 1: usually have two books going at the same time. And 716 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:14,560 Speaker 1: I'm reading this Paul Oster book slowly, but I'm just 717 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,440 Speaker 1: blown away by how much I how much I love it. 718 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,960 Speaker 1: So that's a full that's just a full recommend from 719 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:22,640 Speaker 1: me to anybody listening to this. 720 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:25,360 Speaker 2: I'm so good to check that out. I'm exactly the 721 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 2: same with my reading habits. I've always got a fiction 722 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 2: at a nonfiction going at the same time. 723 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 1: Oh I love that. 724 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so good. I'm reading The Power of Regret, 725 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,960 Speaker 2: Dan Pink's new book at the moment, you know, interviewing 726 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:39,680 Speaker 2: him in a couple of weeks, and I got to say, 727 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 2: I'm just loving it. It's I who would have thought 728 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 2: reading a book about regret would be just captivating and 729 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 2: it is. So that is my recommendation for the listeners 730 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:54,319 Speaker 2: wanting another book to read. 731 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,239 Speaker 1: I'll give you one more though, and you should have this. 732 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 1: This would be a great guest for you. And do 733 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:05,279 Speaker 1: you know if I say little Steven Stephen van Zant, 734 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 1: do you know who that is? 735 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:06,400 Speaker 2: No? 736 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:12,799 Speaker 1: I din't Little Stephen van Zandt is best known as 737 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 1: being like Bruce Springsteen's creative partner guitar player since the beginning, 738 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,920 Speaker 1: produced some of the albums with Bruce. But he's also 739 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 1: was one of the leads on the Sopranos. He was 740 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 1: Silvio on the Sopranos, and he said this incredible life 741 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,279 Speaker 1: of and so he was Tony. Basically he served the 742 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 1: same role for Tony soprano that he served in real 743 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,320 Speaker 1: life for Bruce Springsteen. And he was Silvio on the Sopranos. 744 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 1: And he wrote this book called Unrequited Infatuations. That's all 745 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,759 Speaker 1: about the work. It's completely about process. It is a 746 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:53,600 Speaker 1: full on primer about the process of being a rock star, writer, producer. 747 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,279 Speaker 1: He would be a magnificent guest for you. He's a 748 00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,960 Speaker 1: great talker and an incredibly well read person. And the book, 749 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,680 Speaker 1: it's great Unrequired Infatuations. It reads like a novel, but 750 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:04,400 Speaker 1: it's a memoir. 751 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,759 Speaker 2: Wow, Okay, I'm going to check you out and I'm 752 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:12,439 Speaker 2: going to check that book ash. Now, Brian, for people 753 00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,040 Speaker 2: that want to connect with you in some way, consume 754 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 2: more of what you're doing. What is the best way 755 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,000 Speaker 2: for people to do that? The two. 756 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm on Twitter and I'm active on Twitter 757 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,799 Speaker 1: at Brian Koppleman. I'm also on Instagram. I'm slightly less 758 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,960 Speaker 1: active there, and on TikTok, I'm slightly less active even 759 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,600 Speaker 1: than I am on Instagram, but always oh, I think 760 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,640 Speaker 1: on TikTok, maybe I'm Brian W. Kopliment, but I'm verified 761 00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:37,799 Speaker 1: there so you'll know it's really me, and you can 762 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,440 Speaker 1: find me on Twitter or Instagram too. There are some 763 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,240 Speaker 1: impersonation accounts, but if the blue check is there, then it's. 764 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,160 Speaker 2: Me awesome, and I'll link to the correct accounts in 765 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,640 Speaker 2: the show notes. Brian, It's just been such a treat, 766 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,280 Speaker 2: like this hour has flown by, and I'm so grateful 767 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:56,840 Speaker 2: that you did say yes. So thank you, thank you, 768 00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,359 Speaker 2: thank you. It's just been such a pleasure. 769 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,239 Speaker 1: Pleasure, great questions, great talking to you. Can't wait to 770 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 1: hear it. 771 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,879 Speaker 2: I just loved this chat with Brian, and I think 772 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:11,879 Speaker 2: the thing that still sticks with me weeks after doing 773 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 2: the interview is the idea of how he writes to 774 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 2: music and how that creates the emotion and the vibe 775 00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 2: that he wants to create and communicate in the scene 776 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 2: that he's working on I just love that image. Thank 777 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:29,960 Speaker 2: you for sharing part of your day with me by 778 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,799 Speaker 2: listening to How I Work. If you're keen for more 779 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,520 Speaker 2: tips on how to work better, connect with me via 780 00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:39,560 Speaker 2: LinkedIn or Instagram. I'm very easy to find. Just search 781 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:44,320 Speaker 2: for Amantha Imba. How I Work was recorded on the 782 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:48,359 Speaker 2: traditional land of the Warrangery people, part of the cool 783 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,719 Speaker 2: And Nation. I am so grateful for being able to 784 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,640 Speaker 2: work and live on this beautiful land, and I want 785 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 2: to pay my respects to elder's past, present and emerging. 786 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,280 Speaker 2: How I Work is produced by Inventium with production support 787 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,480 Speaker 2: from Dead Set Studios. The producer for this episode was 788 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,279 Speaker 2: Liam Riordan, and thank you to Martin Nimba who did 789 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:10,680 Speaker 2: the audio mix and makes everything sound better than it 790 00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:11,920 Speaker 2: would have otherwise.