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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers now?

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Speaker 2: The research is very clear reward like punishments can only

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Speaker 2: get temporary compliance, and in both cases they retard moral

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Speaker 2: and social and intellectual development.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 3: It's the Happy Famili's podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 3: or parent who just wants answers Now. Hello, I'm doctor

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Speaker 3: Justin Colson here with my wife and co host. I

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Speaker 3: got in trouble for saying that Kylie was my co host.

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Speaker 3: She said, no, no, no, I'm wife and co host. So

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Speaker 3: we're going to get this right. Here with my wife

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Speaker 3: and co host, missus Happy Families, Kylie, thank you for

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Speaker 3: being here.

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Speaker 4: Thank you.

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Speaker 3: We're the parents of six kids. I've written six books

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Speaker 3: about raising happy families and today on the podcast something

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Speaker 3: pretty big.

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Speaker 4: I'm pretty excited about our interview today. We're going to

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Speaker 4: talk to someone who's been on OPRAH. Do you know

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Speaker 4: how big a deal that is?

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Speaker 3: I haven't been on Oprah, so I don't know it's

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Speaker 3: a big deal. I'd love to be on over that

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Speaker 3: would be I would.

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Speaker 4: Love you to be on Oprah too. That means I

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Speaker 4: might actually get to meet her. Time magazine has described

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Speaker 4: him as being perhaps the country's most outspoken critic on

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Speaker 4: education's fixation with grades and test scores, and justin he

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Speaker 4: probably is one of the biggest influences on you of

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Speaker 4: any author I know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know. If I was to put a list

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Speaker 3: together of people that I would love to interview for

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Speaker 3: this podcast, this guy would be very told the list,

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Speaker 3: and we've got him. So I'm crazy exciting. I'm ecstatic.

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Speaker 3: Alfie Kohane is the name of the person we're speaking

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Speaker 3: to in just a sec. He's a very very well

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Speaker 3: known author and writer around parenting and education in those

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Speaker 3: kinds of areas. In nineteen ninety three, Alfie wrote a

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Speaker 3: book that was called Punished by Rewards, and that was

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Speaker 3: pretty much the central reason that I left my radio

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Speaker 3: career and went back to school to study psychology. Alfie

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Speaker 3: is the reason that I am, in many ways who

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Speaker 3: I am today. His influence has been far reaching, and

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Speaker 3: he's affected not just me, but our family and obviously

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Speaker 3: thousands and thousands and tens of thousands, if not millions,

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Speaker 3: of parents around the globe. So so excited to be

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Speaker 3: able to talk to Alfie today.

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Speaker 4: You know, I actually remember when you brought that book

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Speaker 4: home and you wanted me to read it. It's not

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Speaker 4: a book for the faint hearted. It was a really,

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Speaker 4: really intense book. But I remember how excited you were

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Speaker 4: about all of the concepts you were learning, and specifically

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Speaker 4: actually having an opportunity to talk to Alfie on the

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Speaker 4: phone for the first time. I remember that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, not only did I talk to him, but then

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Speaker 3: a few years later he was in Australia and I

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Speaker 3: got to hang out with him. In fact, I drove

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Speaker 3: him from the central coast of New South Wales down

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Speaker 3: to Sydney because he needed transport, and I was the

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Speaker 3: one that contacted the organizers and said, what do you need?

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Speaker 3: How can I help? And they said, oh, we really

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Speaker 3: need someone to take him for a drive. I said

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Speaker 3: I can do that. So that was pretty epic. And Alfie,

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Speaker 3: we've got you here right now, Alfie, can I start Hubert?

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Speaker 4: I'd love to ask you a question when we think

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Speaker 4: about punishment and discipline together, why is punishment such a

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Speaker 4: lousy way to discipline our kids?

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Speaker 2: Because punishment teaches power, it undermines the possibility of moral

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Speaker 2: growth in children. If I say to kids, do this,

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Speaker 2: or here's how I'm going to make you suffer, which

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Speaker 2: is what punishment is. And by the way, you can

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Speaker 2: call it consequences, it's still the same thing. It says

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Speaker 2: to kids, do this or here's what I'm going to

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Speaker 2: do to you. Then kids are first of all thinking

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Speaker 2: only about themselves, how do I avoid the punishment, never

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Speaker 2: about the impact of their actions on others. All use

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Speaker 2: of consequences, punishment focuses kids narrowly on self interest. And secondly,

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Speaker 2: what they have modeled for them is that someone who

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Speaker 2: has more power than they do can coerce them into

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Speaker 2: doing whatever or she wants. And that's the main lesson

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Speaker 2: that kids learn. Sometimes they take it out on others

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Speaker 2: that very same day when they come across peers who

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Speaker 2: have less power than they do. So punishment is a

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Speaker 2: way of doing things to children, and the only way

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Speaker 2: we help kids become good people is by working with them.

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Speaker 2: To put it slightly differently, the only thing you can

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Speaker 2: ever get from any kind of punishment from forcible isolation

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Speaker 2: which is euphemistically called time out, to withdrawal of privileges

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Speaker 2: or yelling, spanking, whatever, it is the only thing you

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Speaker 2: can ever get is temporary compliance at an enormous cost.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that reminds me a story that I love to tell.

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Speaker 3: When I was about fifteen years old, I was I

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Speaker 3: was in the kitchen, my little sister was driving me

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Speaker 3: up the wall, and I said a word that we're

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Speaker 3: not supposed to use in my family. You know, we

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Speaker 3: had some very strict rules around the kind of language

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Speaker 3: we use. And I called my sister a stupid ead.

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Speaker 3: Today I said something like, oh, shut up, your stupid idiot.

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Speaker 3: My mom heard and came dashing into the kid. She said, justin,

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Speaker 3: we don't speak like that in this house. You need

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Speaker 3: to say sorry to your sister right now. And so

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Speaker 3: he's a false apology. So I'm obviously being dishonest when

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Speaker 3: I apologize. But I looked at my sister and I said,

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Speaker 3: to a fine Carena, I'm sorry, you're a stupid idiot,

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Speaker 3: which obviously made a lot of sense to my fifteen

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Speaker 3: year old brain, but it infuriated my mum, who, with

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Speaker 3: the best of intentions, said, you go to your room

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Speaker 3: right now and you think about what you just said.

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Speaker 3: And you know, Alfie, I went, I had.

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Speaker 2: Any child in history ever thought in a constructive way

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Speaker 2: after being forcibly isolated. What you're thinking about in that

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Speaker 2: room is how unfair it is that you're there, how

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Speaker 2: you're misunderstood, and how you're going to get back at

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Speaker 2: your sister when your mother isn't looking. Never can you

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Speaker 2: get a response by simply making kids unhappy by taking

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Speaker 2: things away from them or putting them in their rooms

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Speaker 2: or whatever and forced apologies, Well, that teaches kids to lie. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: what say things that they don't believe.

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Speaker 3: I was going to say is that I went to

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Speaker 3: my room. I sat on my bed, and I thought

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Speaker 3: carefully about how I was an impediment to my family's happiness,

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Speaker 3: and I resolved to be a bit of human. But

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Speaker 3: I didn't really I did exactly yes what you said.

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Speaker 3: I was furious about my mom and how she didn't

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Speaker 3: understand me. It really ruptured my relationship in that moment, right,

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Speaker 3: and boy boy, I couldn't wait to get back at

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Speaker 3: my sister when mom wasn't watching.

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Speaker 2: Right, And the alternative to anticipate maybe where you're going next?

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Speaker 2: Since then, no, we have very limited time. That is

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Speaker 2: offered to many parents is instead of using sticks, use tarrots.

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Speaker 2: Instead of controlling them by making them suffer if they

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Speaker 2: don't do what you want, give them a doggy biscuit

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Speaker 2: if they do do what you want. But rewards are

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Speaker 2: just the flip side of punishment. So if I threatened

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Speaker 2: to punish a kid, I'm saying do this. There, here's

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Speaker 2: what I'm going to do to you. If I reward

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Speaker 2: children or offer to reward them, I'm saying, do this

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Speaker 2: and you'll get that. So in the first case, with punishment,

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Speaker 2: kids come to ask question what do they want me

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Speaker 2: to do and what happens to me if I don't

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Speaker 2: do it? If you offer a reward for good behavior,

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Speaker 2: which typically means mindlessly obedient, not generous or thoughtful, but

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Speaker 2: then the question kids come to ask is what do

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Speaker 2: they want me to do and what do I get

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Speaker 2: for doing it? And so the research is very clear

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Speaker 2: that rewards, like punishments, can only get temporary compliance, and

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Speaker 2: in both cases they retard moral and social and intellectual development,

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Speaker 2: because we have hundreds of studies showing that the more

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Speaker 2: you reward people for doing something, the more they tend

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Speaker 2: to lose interest in whatever they had to do to

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Speaker 2: get the reward. So, on the one hand, if you

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Speaker 2: want to destroy children's interest in reading. For example, you

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Speaker 2: would offer a prize for reading a book because now

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Speaker 2: you've taught them that reading is something you would never

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Speaker 2: want to do, and it becomes devalued. They say, well,

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Speaker 2: you know, if this was so much fun, they wouldn't

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Speaker 2: have to bribe me to do it. But the other

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Speaker 2: reason that it devalues, that that kids lose interest in

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Speaker 2: whatever they're rewarded for doing is because it's control. If

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Speaker 2: I punish a kid for doing something, it's obvious I'm controllingum.

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Speaker 2: But what a lot of parents don't realize is if

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Speaker 2: they reward kids, and that includes verbal rewards like good job,

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Speaker 2: I really like thewau dot dot dot, this is just

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Speaker 2: a verbal doggie biscuit, and all rewards are just sugar

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Speaker 2: coated control, and kids don't like being controlled. So we

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Speaker 2: have research that shows that almost anything that kids are

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Speaker 2: rewarded for doing becomes less appealing to them. They have

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Speaker 2: less commitment to it over the long haul of Several

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Speaker 2: studies have shown a couple of just in the last

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Speaker 2: few years that children who are frequently rewarded or praised

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Speaker 2: by their parents are less generous and helpful than other kids,

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Speaker 2: and the effect is most pronounced if they're rewarded or

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Speaker 2: praised for being helpful. So you are undermining with the

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Speaker 2: use of any kind of reward, including praise, or punishment,

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Speaker 2: including time out. The only alternatives to this are not

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Speaker 2: quite so easy to script or to save a one

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Speaker 2: size fits all when you do this, when your kid

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Speaker 2: does this, you should do that. So it's frustrating because

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Speaker 2: you actually have to think as opposed to being scripted

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Speaker 2: out by a parenting expert. But rewards and punishments are ways,

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Speaker 2: as they say, of doing things to children, forms of control.

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Speaker 2: What helps us to become the best parents we can

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Speaker 2: is to figure out ways of working with them to

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Speaker 2: solve problems.

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Speaker 3: Lots of people say that it's not a big deal.

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Speaker 3: I want to get you a take on.

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Speaker 1: It right after the It's the Happy Families Podcast US

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Speaker 1: Screens Creating Tension at Home, tweens, teens and Screens is

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Speaker 1: a webinar to guide families to healthy, safe superscreen solutions.

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Speaker 3: Bye today at happyfamilies dot com dot au slash shop.

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Speaker 4: It's the Happy Families Podcast. The podcast for the time

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Speaker 4: poor parent who just wants answers? Now, Alvie, what about

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Speaker 4: those parents who would say, but I just can't get

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Speaker 4: my kids to do anything without a reward. You know

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Speaker 4: those parents who are using reward charts or other ways

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Speaker 4: of coercing the children to do the household chores. Some

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Speaker 4: parents would actually say that the kids are more motivated

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Speaker 4: by using them.

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Speaker 2: Right, And the question is not how do we motivate kids?

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Speaker 2: The question is how are kids motivated. For the last

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Speaker 2: few decades, psychologists have helped us understand that there are

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Speaker 2: different kinds of motivation, and the kind matters more than

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Speaker 2: the amount. Specifically, psychologists talk about the difference between intrinsic motivation,

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Speaker 2: which means you do something because you want to do it,

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Speaker 2: because you get a kick out of it, it's satisfying,

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Speaker 2: and extrinsic motivation, which is where you do it to

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Speaker 2: avoid a punishment or to get a reward. And what

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Speaker 2: we know from research as well as experience is that

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Speaker 2: the two tend to be inversely related. So the child

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Speaker 2: who seems quote motivated to do it in order to

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Speaker 2: get the gold star, the ice cream, calm, a good job, whatever,

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Speaker 2: has more extrinsic motivation, and as a direct result, is

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Speaker 2: now less committed to being a helpful person, less interested

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Speaker 2: in whether his actions around the house are making other

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Speaker 2: people feel good. So I guess when I see the

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Speaker 2: When parents say you know they work, I always ask

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Speaker 2: work to do what what's your goal? You can get

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Speaker 2: mindless obedience in the short run if the reward is

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Speaker 2: juicy enough or the punishment is awful enough. What you

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Speaker 2: can never get is a child who is happy, more ethical,

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Speaker 2: more compassionate, or caring, more of an independent thinker, all

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Speaker 2: of the things we parents want in the long run

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Speaker 2: for our goal. Rewards like star charts and stickers in

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Speaker 2: the life actually get in the way of those more ambitious, meaningful,

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Speaker 2: long term goals.

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Speaker 3: If I'm not going to use punishments and I'm not

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Speaker 3: going to use rewards, what does Alfie Cone and the

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Speaker 3: research suggest would be the best way to respond to

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Speaker 3: this child who is just driving me.

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Speaker 2: Up the wall? Talk less, ask more. There's no one

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Speaker 2: size fits all solution. As I indicated before, everything will

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Speaker 2: depend on what's going on in this child's environment and

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Speaker 2: in this child's head. Five different kids who are seen

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Speaker 2: as difficult or troubling or making us go crazy and

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Speaker 2: pushing our buttons, maybe doing it for five completely different reasons,

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Speaker 2: and each of those and calls for a different course

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Speaker 2: of action. I mean, this is the thing when I

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Speaker 2: wrote my book Unconditional Parenting, which is get specifically to

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Speaker 2: looking at parenting punished by rewards, also looks at schools

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Speaker 2: and workplaces as well as families. But I had to

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Speaker 2: in the working with section be what do we do instead,

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Speaker 2: you know, break the bad news that I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to give you a magic formula. If a child is

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Speaker 2: acting this way rolling the eyes, because frankly we're saying

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Speaker 2: stuff that deserves an eye rolling, then the problem is

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Speaker 2: not the kid. The problem is with what we have

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Speaker 2: been doing that we need to rethink, and we need

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Speaker 2: to come to the child and say, I'm really frustrated

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Speaker 2: sometimes by your attitude here, and I want to hear

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Speaker 2: where it's coming from. And then you have to listen

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Speaker 2: for the answer without getting defensive or huffy. And then

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Speaker 2: when there's a particular problem, like we want to get

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Speaker 2: the house clean, I don't know about using a different

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Speaker 2: technique to get the kid's room clean. I mean, it's

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Speaker 2: the kid's room, and why would the kid have to

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Speaker 2: keep it up to our standards? In other words, the

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Speaker 2: premise of the question here ought to be called into question.

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Speaker 2: Don't ask how do I get the kid to do X?

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Speaker 2: If I can't use punishments and rewards, begin by asking

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Speaker 2: whether X really needs to be done. But if we're

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Speaker 2: convinced it does, like everybody should pitch in with stuff

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Speaker 2: around dinner, then I would be asking the child, you

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Speaker 2: know what's the problem here? What can be done? What

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Speaker 2: do you think you can do in order to help

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Speaker 2: help things go smoothly whenever possible. Kids learn to make

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Speaker 2: good decisions by making decisions, not by following directions, and

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Speaker 2: so we end up getting kids who are happier to

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Speaker 2: participate because they feel trusted and respected as a result

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Speaker 2: of our asking about their experience and responding appropriately rather

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Speaker 2: than mindlessly and unilaterally try to impose our demands and

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Speaker 2: agenda on them.

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Speaker 3: It sounds like something that I share with parents is

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Speaker 3: what I call the three ease of effective discipline. And

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Speaker 3: when I say discipline, I mean discipline is teaching and

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Speaker 3: guiding and instructing. It's helping our children to internalize those

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Speaker 3: things that matter most. So I talk about how we

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Speaker 3: need to explore their world, explore why they're struggling with

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Speaker 3: this question that we've asked, which helps us to understand

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Speaker 3: whether it was a good question or a good behavior

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Speaker 3: or requested in the first place, and then we explain

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Speaker 3: what our rationale is so that they can at least

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Speaker 3: see what our perspective is, and then we empower them

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Speaker 3: to work together with us to find a solution that's

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Speaker 3: mutually agreeable. It sounds to me like that's the kind

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Speaker 3: of process that you're describing.

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Speaker 2: Uh yes, but with not to throw away, but to

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Speaker 2: really linger on the problem. On that one aspect that

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Speaker 2: a lot of times when kids don't do what we've

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Speaker 2: told them, the problem is with what we've told them,

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Speaker 2: and so we have to begin by being willing to

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Speaker 2: question the premise, whether it's what we're asking of them

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Speaker 2: is reasonable, whether it's developmentally appropriate, and so on, and

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Speaker 2: then to keep checking back with them if let them

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Speaker 2: propose a solution, and then let's talk about it later

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Speaker 2: to see how it's going.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it sounds like effective exploration is the central pillar there, Alfie.

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Speaker 3: This has just been such an awesome conversation. Thank you

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Speaker 3: so much for your time. It's been an absolute pleasure

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Speaker 3: speaking about the problems of punishment and rewards being used

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Speaker 3: as a way to get our kids to do what

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Speaker 3: we want them to do. Thanks so much for listening

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Speaker 3: to the podcast. I want to just Kylie, I'm going

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Speaker 3: to get you to share a review rub th me

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Speaker 3: because I always share these reviews. But we've had another

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Speaker 3: five star review coming in the last day or so.

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Speaker 4: We sure have. Mookie wat said, my friend recommended this

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Speaker 4: podcast channel and I'm so glad I gave it a go.

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Speaker 4: It was great content and very relatable. My daughter is

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Speaker 4: still quite young, but I think it's great as a

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Speaker 4: parent to get in a good mindset when it comes

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Speaker 4: to parenting and start working on those techniques that have

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Speaker 4: been discussed.

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Speaker 3: Five stars that thank you so much for the five

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Speaker 3: star reviews. It's your reviews that help people to find

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Speaker 3: the podcast as the five star reviews that bump it

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Speaker 3: up along the Apple Let's take notice of this podcast

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Speaker 3: sort of ratings thing, So please jump onto either Apple

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Speaker 3: or wherever you get your podcasts and leave a rating

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Speaker 3: and a review. It just makes so much of a difference.

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Speaker 3: The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from

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Speaker 3: Bridge Media. Our executive producer is Craig Bruce. If you'd

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Speaker 3: like more information about how to make your family happier,

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Speaker 3: visit happyfamilies dot com. Dot au