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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for.

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Speaker 1: The time poor parent who just wants answers Now Gooday.

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Speaker 2: This is doctor Justin Colson, the founder of Happy Families

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Speaker 2: dot com dot au and dad to six daughters, one

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Speaker 2: no two, oh my goodness. Two of them are in

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Speaker 2: their twenties, one's about to be and then I have

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Speaker 2: a twelve ye I have a teenager, and I have

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Speaker 2: a soon to be tween she's about to turn nine.

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Speaker 2: So to help me to navigate these last three kids

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Speaker 2: moving into adolescents and getting on with their lives, I

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Speaker 2: brought in a friend, somebody who I really love to

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Speaker 2: talk to and learn from, somebody who has wisdom just

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Speaker 2: burgeoning outside of her ears. Her name is Michelle Mitchell.

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Speaker 2: If you follow me on Facebook, you will have noticed

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Speaker 2: Michelle's name come up fairly frequently. Michelle's worked with me

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Speaker 2: on summits, She's been on the podcast before, and Michelle

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Speaker 2: has a brand new book out. It's called Tweens What

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Speaker 2: Kids Need Now Before the teenage Years, Navigating friendships, moods, technology, boundaries,

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Speaker 2: body image, and the road Ahead. Hey, Michelle, thanks for

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Speaker 2: being on a Happy Families podcast again.

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Speaker 1: It's great to see you, doctor, Justin Colson. Good to

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Speaker 1: see you too. Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: So tell me about tweens because a lot of people

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Speaker 2: lump tweens and teens together, but developmentally we're talking about

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Speaker 2: a completely different experience when it comes to raising these kids.

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Speaker 2: What's the age group for a tween, what's going on

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Speaker 2: developmentally for them? And why do we need to distinguish

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Speaker 2: between tweens and teens.

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Speaker 1: I started writing this book for parents of tweens and

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Speaker 1: teens together because that's a typical narrative. We sort of

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Speaker 1: follow the transition. But the more I dug into the

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Speaker 1: research and really listen to what families were telling me,

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Speaker 1: I just had to narrow my message down. And so

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Speaker 1: a big message of this book is that tweens are

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Speaker 1: not the new teenagers. Despite the teen like issues they

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Speaker 1: might be facing, they actually experienced them in a completely

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Speaker 1: different way than our teenagers do. So even if it

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Speaker 1: is the big issues like vaping and self harm, they're

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Speaker 1: approaching them with childlike cognition and greater trust with adults,

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Speaker 1: And there's so much togetherness in those tween years, those

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Speaker 1: nine to twelve years, parents are like feel like they

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Speaker 1: have a little shadow around them. All the time, and

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Speaker 1: it's that beautiful togetherness that we really want to tap into.

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Speaker 2: Michelle, I love what you're saying here. I want to

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Speaker 2: ask you an unexpected question. As you're talking about that,

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Speaker 2: the thought popped into my mind. I've said it myself,

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Speaker 2: and I've heard so many parents say it. Oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: they're nine going on nineteen.

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Speaker 1: That's it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, But my sense from what you're describing about this

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Speaker 2: developmental period is that they're not They're nine going on ten,

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Speaker 2: they're not ready to be a teenager. They are actually,

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Speaker 2: even though it feels like we're not ready for it.

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Speaker 2: They're just developing normally and healthy if we're setting up

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Speaker 2: the environment right and.

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Speaker 1: The best way to support them is to be present

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Speaker 1: right now and understand what's going on in there brains

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Speaker 1: right now. And this is something that's really been lost

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Speaker 1: in research. Our kids have sort of been a bit

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Speaker 1: neglected because we've focused on the early years and then

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Speaker 1: we focused on them when they become the troubled teenagers.

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Speaker 1: But there hasn't been a lot of research around that

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Speaker 1: nine to twelve age. The Murdoch Children's Research Institute have

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Speaker 1: some some fantastic work in this area, and what's starting

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Speaker 1: to come to lie is that kids' brains are on

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Speaker 1: high speed. They're like a tree that's branches are reaching

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Speaker 1: far and wide, and the experiences and the environments that

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Speaker 1: we put around them actually help that growth. During this stage.

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Speaker 1: It's the most rapid stage of growth since toddlehood. And

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Speaker 1: if you think about that, that's pretty impressive. Like they're moldable,

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Speaker 1: they're responsive to their environments, they're adaptive, and there's this

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Speaker 1: really significant restructuring and reorganizing of their brain in preparation

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Speaker 1: for the teenage years. So they sometimes feel quite overwhelmed,

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Speaker 1: they feel exhausted. They get this accelerated growth in gusts.

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Speaker 1: And it's not just about their physical and biological changes.

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Speaker 1: Their emotional, social, sexual, cognitive changes are happening at the

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Speaker 1: same life altering pace. So this is a big time

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Speaker 1: in their life. They need us beside them.

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Speaker 2: So let me hit you with a quick lightning round

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Speaker 2: on those changes. I'm talking one or two sentence answers

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Speaker 2: for each of these domains. Let's start with social. When

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Speaker 2: you're atween, what's happening socially that's different to what had

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Speaker 2: happened prior to the age of nine.

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Speaker 1: Perspective taking They're starting to understand that other people have

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Speaker 1: their own mind and can think differently than they do.

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Speaker 1: The first time they realize that someone might not like them,

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Speaker 1: like it's a light bulb moment for them. This is

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Speaker 1: a big shock to their system. There's a huge amount

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Speaker 1: of comparisons. There's a huge amount of transitions. We've got

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Speaker 1: our kids developing at different rates, which makes for all

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Speaker 1: sorts of movement in friendships, which can be really hard

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Speaker 1: for them to handle.

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Speaker 2: You've used the word movement. So let's go to the

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Speaker 2: physical domain next. When it comes to twins, what are

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Speaker 2: the biggest physical changes bearing in mind that they're still

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Speaker 2: not quite adolescents.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's look at it as there's so many under

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Speaker 1: the bonnet changes that happen, Like the roots in the

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Speaker 1: tree that we talk about, it's expanding behind the scenes

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Speaker 1: before we see that first pubic here. So we can't

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Speaker 1: think of puberty and their growth like this unitary event

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Speaker 1: like they've hit puberty because you know, they're starting to

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Speaker 1: get their periods or whatever. The hormones start rising in

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Speaker 1: their body between eighty nine, So they've got these changes

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Speaker 1: happening internally. And what I think we've missed with this

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Speaker 1: age group is we don't always correlate behavior to that development.

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Speaker 1: We miss it so I think that we're being naughty

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Speaker 1: or bad, and we're very easy correlate it with teenagers,

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Speaker 1: but not with tweens.

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Speaker 2: Fascinating last one, No, I've got two more Cognitively in

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Speaker 2: terms of brain development. You've touched on this already, but

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Speaker 2: if you were to lightning around one or two sentences,

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Speaker 2: what's actually going on from a cognitive The ability to

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Speaker 2: think about things point.

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Speaker 1: Of view so important twins. If they're rigid, they're very concrete.

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Speaker 1: They try and understand new information by linking it to

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Speaker 1: their parents' ideas or things they really have a solid

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Speaker 1: grasp on. As they get older, they're going to try

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Speaker 1: and join those dots to all sorts of things beyond

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Speaker 1: our family, beyond our ideas, and they're going to be

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Speaker 1: freeer thinkers. What happens in this stage of growth is

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Speaker 1: they look to us as the source, and if we

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Speaker 1: don't be the source, someone else is going to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, usually Google or a friend in the playground that

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Speaker 2: doesn't know nearly as much as or nearly as healthy

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Speaker 2: things as we might. The last one for the Lightning

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Speaker 2: round in fact, you probably want to go a little

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Speaker 2: bit deeper on this one. So let's go there. Self esteem.

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Speaker 2: What happens with kids and the way they view themselves,

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Speaker 2: their identity development. I guess as they go through these

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Speaker 2: tween years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay. I surveyed sixteen hundred parents, and one hundred percent, justin,

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Speaker 1: one hundred percent said to me that self esteem and

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Speaker 1: confidence was their most pressing concern. And when I really

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Speaker 1: dug into the comments and started to really listen to

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Speaker 1: what they were saying, they were telling me that kids

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Speaker 1: were starting to pull back rather than advance, and they

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Speaker 1: were starting to get very self conscious because they were

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Speaker 1: aware of other people's perspective of them. Isn't this interesting?

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Speaker 1: So taking a present into a party became a very

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Speaker 1: big deal. Wearing a collared shirt to a wedding caused

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Speaker 1: a massive meltdown. And so parents are watching on thinking

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Speaker 1: what's going on with my kid? And if I can

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Speaker 1: say anythink up front as reassurance, self esteem follows a

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Speaker 1: very clear trajectory. When they're younger, they have this sort

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Speaker 1: of over the top and inflated view of themselves. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they're going to be a pilot and an Olympian before Sunday.

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Speaker 1: But as they get older, they start to realize that

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Speaker 1: that it's not realistic and their flaws in comparison to

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Speaker 1: other people become a lot stronger. So that is comparison's kicking.

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Speaker 1: And I always say to kids, you are what you

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Speaker 1: are looking for. This is going to take some time,

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Speaker 1: but there's that innate blueprint inside of you that you

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Speaker 1: are searching for right now, and I think a big

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Speaker 1: part of the tween is is helping them explore that blueprint.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what I'm hearing is this is the time where

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Speaker 2: the foundations of what their future identity development will become.

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Speaker 2: This is this is such a pivotal time. I'm speaking

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Speaker 2: with Michelle Mitchell. She is the author of Twins What

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Speaker 2: Kids Need Now Before the Teenage Years. It's the Happy

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Speaker 2: Families podcast, the podcast for the type of parent who

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Speaker 2: just wants answers now. Loving our conversation Michelle Mitchell, the

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Speaker 2: author of Tweens What Kids Need Now Before the Teenage Years.

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Speaker 2: This is a time nine to twelve where kids suddenly

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Speaker 2: become i'm going to say, immersed in technology and they

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Speaker 2: start pushing boundaries. Technically, we know that kids aren't supposed

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Speaker 2: to be on social media and all that sort of

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Speaker 2: thing until they're thirteen. But anyone who works in and

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Speaker 2: around schools talks to kids often knows that a vast proportion,

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Speaker 2: far too high a proportion of these kids aged between

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Speaker 2: nine and twelve are on Instagram and TikTok and snapchat

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Speaker 2: and everything else as well. Can you talk to me

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Speaker 2: a bit about what you discovered in your research about

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Speaker 2: the exposure that our nine to twelve year old tweens

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Speaker 2: are having to technology and how it's affecting them.

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Speaker 1: When I surveyed betweens themselves, they gave me five key messages,

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Speaker 1: and one of those messages was you are missing stuff.

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Speaker 1: So what they're saying to us as parents is we're

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Speaker 1: growing up quicker than you realize. You're a step behind

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Speaker 1: what's happening. And when I speak in schools around staying

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Speaker 1: safe online and anything around unsafe people, pedophiles, pornography comes

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Speaker 1: into the discussion. I will always have kids come to

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Speaker 1: me afterwards to have conversations with me that they haven't

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Speaker 1: felt comfortable having with their parents, and that breaks my

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Speaker 1: heart really to think that they're coming to me as

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Speaker 1: a complete stranger in their life, thinking that I'll understand

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Speaker 1: what's going on in their world more than their parents do.

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Speaker 1: And when they're tweens, they have this innate curiosity that

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Speaker 1: starts to surface, and we need to match that with

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Speaker 1: I guess, safeguarding their journey. But also there are conversations

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Speaker 1: if we are not prepared to talk to them about

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Speaker 1: pedophiles and pornography. Are they old enough to be online?

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Speaker 1: That would be my very very big challenged parents. And yes,

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Speaker 1: we need to bring the conversation in an age appropriate

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Speaker 1: way to our kids. But we need to be having

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Speaker 1: this conversation because they certainly are in the playground.

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Speaker 2: And that's a provocative and important idea. They're online, they're

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Speaker 2: doing it, and like you said, no parent wants to

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Speaker 2: be told that they're a step behind they're nine year old.

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Speaker 2: But I think that that visual is absolutely spot on.

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Speaker 2: The other thought that I had as you were saying

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Speaker 2: that is with my daughter about to turn nine, we're

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Speaker 2: just a few weeks off now. We were walking along

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Speaker 2: the beach the other day, Michelle, and she was walking

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Speaker 2: behind me and she said this thing that really struck me,

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Speaker 2: and I think that it will resonate with you, especially

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Speaker 2: based on what we've been talking about she's walking behind me,

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Speaker 2: and I hear this beautiful little voice pipe up and

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Speaker 2: she says, Hey, Dad. I said, ah, huh, I'm walking

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Speaker 2: in your footsteps. And I just went, oh. I mean

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Speaker 2: she's not meaning it at all in the way that

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Speaker 2: I'm hearing it, but as a parent right at this age,

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Speaker 2: like you said, if we kind of bring this conversation

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Speaker 2: full circle, we are right in this special time where

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Speaker 2: they still really, really they're not embarrassed to say that

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Speaker 2: they want to be close to us. They're not trying

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Speaker 2: to walk in front or behind because they don't want

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Speaker 2: to be seen with us. They're not intentionally trying to

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Speaker 2: differentiate and individuate from us like they will in the

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Speaker 2: teen years. If there was one final thing that you

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Speaker 2: could share with parents to help them to build that connection,

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Speaker 2: to establish that foundation, to set things up now before

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Speaker 2: the teenage years, what's your real take home message from

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Speaker 2: the book, tweins, I hope I.

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Speaker 1: Can explain this. As much as it hits my heart,

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Speaker 1: I think we need to learn to flip it. As

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Speaker 1: much as we don't want our children to grow up,

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Speaker 1: I think there's something in our children that oftentimes doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to grow up. And the number one reason is

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Speaker 1: they're scared of losing our connection with us. And it

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Speaker 1: came through all of the survey comments that kids were

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Speaker 1: not wanting to be a pain to their parents and

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Speaker 1: not wanting to be argumentative like their older brothers and sisters.

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Speaker 1: They don't want to lose their mum and dad's love

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Speaker 1: by growing up. And sometimes our kids, you know, they

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Speaker 1: make mistakes, they start to become almost teenagers and they

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Speaker 1: push the boundaries, and I feel like how we respond

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Speaker 1: in that moment either ushes in the next season well

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Speaker 1: and sets the tone or where it kind of squashes

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Speaker 1: our kids and makes them feel like being a teenager

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Speaker 1: is a bad thing.

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Speaker 2: Michelle Mitchell's new book is called Tweens What Kids Need

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Speaker 2: Now Before the Teenage Years. It's in store, it's online,

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Speaker 2: It's available right now wherever you buy your books. Michelle,

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Speaker 2: what a great conversation. Thanks so much for sharing what

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Speaker 2: you've shared.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. Always love it.

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Speaker 2: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland for

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Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. And if

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Speaker 2: you like more info about making your family happier, especially

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Speaker 2: if you're raising tweens, check out Michelle's book Twins. Will

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Speaker 2: link to it in the show notes, or you can

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Speaker 2: find it online and visit happy families dot com, dot

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Speaker 2: a