Speaker 1: Ordinarily Speaking.
Speaker 2: I bought into the stereotypes of what a drug addict
Speaker 2: was like, but then I became one. Takes time.
Speaker 3: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Ordinarily Speaking.
Speaker 3: Dane Beams is a former Aussie rule star who won
Speaker 3: a premiership with Collingwood and captained Brisbane. In twenty eighteen,
Speaker 3: Dane's dad died after a battle with cancer. It sent
Speaker 3: Dane down a painful and dangerous path. His mental health deteriorated,
Speaker 3: culminating in drug and gambling addictions that almost cost him
Speaker 3: his marriage and even his life. For the first time,
Speaker 3: Dane reveals the extent of those addictions and the person
Speaker 3: he turned into. We also from his wife, Kelly, who
Speaker 3: has stood by him. She offers an honest account of
Speaker 3: just how challenging it is to support an addict. I
Speaker 3: hope this episode is helpful and insightful, but please know
Speaker 3: the discussion is not designed to be medical or professional advice,
Speaker 3: rather the lived experience of two people who have a
Speaker 3: story to share. If this chat is triggering for you,
Speaker 3: please know there is help out there. Beyond blue dot org,
Speaker 3: dot AU or Lifeline one three double one one four
Speaker 3: are just a couple of places you can go. Dane
Speaker 3: knows he's hurt a lot of people along the way,
Speaker 3: but he hopes he can also help a few too.
Speaker 3: We caught up in Dana Kelly's home in Melbourne. All beansy,
Speaker 3: thanks so much for spending some time with me. I'll
Speaker 3: flag with everyone listening that we're in your new house
Speaker 3: and there are kids running around all over the place,
Speaker 3: so if you hear screams, don't worry. Everyone is okay.
Speaker 2: We could get interrupted a few times.
Speaker 3: The best podcasts are always interrupted by a few kids.
Speaker 3: You and I first did an in depth interview back
Speaker 3: in twenty eighteen back in Brisbane, and you were very
Speaker 3: much in the midst of grieving your dad at the time,
Speaker 3: and we're very open on some mental health issues. You've
Speaker 3: been through a lot since then as well. I want
Speaker 3: to start by asking you, how are you doing now.
Speaker 2: It's an interesting question because life's always full of ups
Speaker 2: and downs, but right at that, in this specific moment
Speaker 2: of time, I'm doing really, really well. I don't think
Speaker 2: too far ahead, and I also try not to think
Speaker 2: too far back. Always try and remember, and I learned
Speaker 2: from my mistakes, but I try and just live in
Speaker 2: the now. If I can just worry about what's going
Speaker 2: on in this particular time. I feel like I don't
Speaker 2: get any sort of anxiety thinking about the future or
Speaker 2: any guilt thinking about the past. Like it's just, you know,
Speaker 2: it's it's just a simple way to live, and I
Speaker 2: find that keeps me relatively grounded and happy.
Speaker 3: So is it very much still a day to day
Speaker 3: proposition for you and how you cope with everything?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess not so much the you know, the
Speaker 2: addiction side of things. I feel like i'm you know,
Speaker 2: well and truly on top of that. And there's you know, days, weeks,
Speaker 2: months where I go without thinking gambling or drugs. Like
Speaker 2: I feel like that's you know, well and truly in
Speaker 2: the past, it's just sort of you know, staying staying
Speaker 2: in the moment, like just enjoying my kids and my wife.
Speaker 2: My daughter's going to go to school next year, like
Speaker 2: you know, I feel like the first sort of two
Speaker 2: years in her life in particular, you know, I was
Speaker 2: relatively emotionless.
Speaker 1: So I am you know, since being you know, off.
Speaker 2: Substance, it's you actually feel emotion and like so it's
Speaker 2: it's just good to you feel that, you know that
Speaker 2: love and joy for your kids, like, and it's something
Speaker 2: that for her first two years of her life anyway,
Speaker 2: my son was born later on, you know, I feel like,
Speaker 2: you know, I didn't have that.
Speaker 3: That's a hard thing to admit in retrospect, I imagine, like,
Speaker 3: do you have a bit of guilt over that?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it also I try not to think of
Speaker 2: it that way. I try and just think of, you know,
Speaker 2: how good it is to actually feel that love for
Speaker 2: her now. And it's good. It's a bloody good feeling,
Speaker 2: and it's it's something you don't really actually realize you're
Speaker 2: you're numbing at the time when you're when you're doing
Speaker 2: the things that you're doing, like you don't actually think
Speaker 2: about the fact that you're numbing any emotions. Like obviously
Speaker 2: I was taking a lot of those drugs to just
Speaker 2: you know, not have.
Speaker 1: To deal with what I needed to deal.
Speaker 3: With the sad emotions.
Speaker 2: I guess, Yeah, you don't really realize that it's actually
Speaker 2: compressing a lot of your just your your emotions day
Speaker 2: to day.
Speaker 3: All your positive stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So well, I can't tell you how good it feels
Speaker 2: to be able to just get out of bed without
Speaker 2: any guilt of a life you know, and I live
Speaker 2: a real simple life, like literally, I just try not
Speaker 2: to lie.
Speaker 1: That's literally like my number one rule.
Speaker 2: And that's bloody yard for a lot of people, but
Speaker 2: I feel like, yeah, it's just what got me in
Speaker 2: a lot of trouble.
Speaker 1: So it's just just try and stay away from it.
Speaker 3: So how do you describe yourself as far as addiction goes? Now?
Speaker 2: I would say that, you know, I'm a recovering addict
Speaker 2: that loves helping other people. Addiction is something that I
Speaker 2: knew nothing about until experiencing it myself. I was I
Speaker 2: was one of those people that would drive down you know,
Speaker 2: Victoria Street and look at all the heroin addicts and
Speaker 2: judge them. And you don't ever know what someone's past
Speaker 2: is or what they're going through at the time. It's
Speaker 2: a really difficult thing to break, like and you know,
Speaker 2: fortunately I was lucky to have access to some really
Speaker 2: good professionals and that's sort of a benefit of you know,
Speaker 2: the career that I was in at the time.
Speaker 1: But there's a lot of people that don't get.
Speaker 2: That help, and you know, they'll essentially live with this
Speaker 2: for the rest of my life or die from it.
Speaker 2: So it's a real challenging thing. Particularly, I went through
Speaker 2: two different addictions. You know, I had the gambling and
Speaker 2: then I had the drugs. And I got to say
Speaker 2: that the drugs was only a relatively short period of time,
Speaker 2: like two years, compared to you know, I gambled really
Speaker 2: from when I was sixteen years old, But the drugs
Speaker 2: was just ten times harder to get off than the
Speaker 2: gambling was. And it's just that physical addiction, Like I
Speaker 2: feel like gambling is more of an emotional sort of attachment. Yes,
Speaker 2: you still get cravings and you know, you still get
Speaker 2: the urges to do it, but you don't get the
Speaker 2: physical withdrawals that you do when you're trying to get
Speaker 2: off drugs.
Speaker 1: And that's ultimately lie A lot.
Speaker 2: Of people will just keep taking them because the feelings
Speaker 2: you get when you're not taking them are just that
Speaker 2: strong that you just you just got to take them,
Speaker 2: like you just can't go through that. You know, we're
Speaker 2: going through your physical withdrawal stage of a detox. Is
Speaker 2: you know that first seventy two hours is the most painful.
Speaker 3: Tell me about that.
Speaker 2: I actually remember it was one stage where you know,
Speaker 2: I was I was still taking the drugs and I'm
Speaker 2: going to get a little bit medical here, like talking
Speaker 2: about the drugs.
Speaker 3: But I never thought you would be.
Speaker 2: I was still so I was still taking the drugs,
Speaker 2: and I said that I think I said to Kelly.
Speaker 2: This was once of many times I said no, I'm
Speaker 2: not going to I'm going to stop taking them.
Speaker 1: I'm just going to get off from now.
Speaker 2: And I actually said, Kelly, there was a drug that
Speaker 2: I had. It was called nel trexone, and it's a
Speaker 2: drug that basically blocks any feeling you get from taking opioids.
Speaker 2: And I said to her, I said, I want you
Speaker 2: to start administering me this every day. But what actually
Speaker 2: happened was it actually, if you still have opioids in
Speaker 2: your system and you take that drug, it actually brings
Speaker 2: on like physical withdraw real hard and instantly. And this
Speaker 2: was something I had no idea about. So I'd taken
Speaker 2: the drugs in the night before and I said to Kelly,
Speaker 2: I said, I want you to start giving me these
Speaker 2: blockers the next day.
Speaker 1: So she did and she gave it to me.
Speaker 2: But we had no idea that it was going to
Speaker 2: look like literally bring on withdrawal straight away.
Speaker 1: And God, that.
Speaker 2: Was painful, Like I remember, like within I think I
Speaker 2: was in bed and she had just left and she
Speaker 2: gave it to me, and then like literally within thirty minutes,
Speaker 2: I just started feeling like real bad, just getting real
Speaker 2: fidgety and then sweating.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of vomit. Like it's it's pretty intense.
Speaker 2: I'd been through it once before, but this time was
Speaker 2: like much worse because it was brought on really fast.
Speaker 1: So he took I took myself off to the emergency.
Speaker 2: Actually, someone had leaked it to the media as well,
Speaker 2: so the media actually got a hold of the fact
Speaker 2: that I was in the emergency section of the hospital. Yeah,
Speaker 2: basically they were able to get it under control with
Speaker 2: you know, some other drugs that helped sort of ease
Speaker 2: the intense physical withdrawals, and then I was transferred from there.
Speaker 2: I was transferred over to another rehab where I stayed
Speaker 2: for like I think seven or eight days. Like once
Speaker 2: you're in like rehab facilities, they're able to assist you
Speaker 2: with medications and stuff, so they sort of so it's
Speaker 2: not as intense that that's.
Speaker 1: First seventy two hours.
Speaker 2: So but I guess to answer your question, physical withdrawal is.
Speaker 1: It's hell, it's not.
Speaker 2: And that's that's literally why people continue to take the
Speaker 2: drugs because their brains, like you know, obviously the chemistry
Speaker 2: and the pathways and their brain have now changed, and
Speaker 2: they need that drug to function day to day because
Speaker 2: literally if they don't have it, their brains telling them
Speaker 2: that they're going to die. So they continue to take it.
Speaker 2: And it's not even about the feeling. It's about just functioning,
Speaker 2: Like you can't function without it. So for me, that
Speaker 2: was exactly the same. Like at the start, I like
Speaker 2: the way it made me feel, like, you know, it
Speaker 2: numbed a lot of the pain and a lot of
Speaker 2: the grief that I was going through, and I liked
Speaker 2: that feeling. But in the end, like it was literally
Speaker 2: just about it became like, you know, I have any
Speaker 2: depressants now, so it's the first thing that I take
Speaker 2: in the morning.
Speaker 1: It was literally just like that.
Speaker 2: It became like that, it was like part of my
Speaker 2: routine that I'd take these drugs. You still I could function.
Speaker 2: It wasn't even about the feeling that it gave me,
Speaker 2: because that sort of wears off over time and then
Speaker 2: your tolerance.
Speaker 1: Just builds up.
Speaker 3: So when you're when you say drugs, what were you taking.
Speaker 2: Really anything that was there's sort of downers, which are
Speaker 2: your benzo diazepines, which you're like you're sleeping tablets the
Speaker 2: class of drugs. And then you've got your opioids, which
Speaker 2: are you're like your pain relief medications, like you know,
Speaker 2: really strong pain relief.
Speaker 3: Were you in any physical from footy or anything, or
Speaker 3: is this just you're abusing those I.
Speaker 1: Was abusing them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's you know, look, I'd had a fair few
Speaker 2: surgeries in the last four years of my career. I
Speaker 2: think I had seven rounds of surgery in the last
Speaker 2: sort of four years that I played, So obviously, you know,
Speaker 2: I'd had access to them, and I knew the feeling
Speaker 2: that they gave me, so but no, I would literally
Speaker 2: just abuse them.
Speaker 3: So these were just leftovers from those surgeries essentially. Or
Speaker 3: how did you actually access.
Speaker 2: Oh, I could tell you some of the ways that
Speaker 2: I accessed them. You know, look, I reckon, I've been
Speaker 2: to probably thirty or forty different gps around Melbourne. There
Speaker 2: was actually stages where this is you know, how badly
Speaker 2: you actually need these things? I was actually I would
Speaker 2: actually google There was one instance and I won't name
Speaker 2: this doctor or or the clinic that it was at,
Speaker 2: because look, I abused him and I took advantage of him,
Speaker 2: but I'd found his profile, like he had a profile
Speaker 2: on their GP page and he had that he was
Speaker 2: a Collingwood supporter. So literally I rang this doctor's clinic.
Speaker 2: It was over the other side of town. There was
Speaker 2: no one even near me, and I don't know how.
Speaker 2: I basically just bullshitted and shit talked my way to
Speaker 2: seeing him. And then basically, yeah, you just find ways.
Speaker 2: You just find ways to get this stuff.
Speaker 3: But you use your profile essentially.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I would use you know, you manipulate people.
Speaker 1: That's what you do.
Speaker 2: You become a full time manipulator, liar. You just do
Speaker 2: whatever you need to do to get what you need.
Speaker 2: And that's look, that's the that's the ship thing about addicts.
Speaker 2: Like a lot of the time addicts will you know,
Speaker 2: steal like I never stole. That was one thing I
Speaker 2: never did, Like, I never stole from anyone. I certainly borrowed,
Speaker 2: you know, particularly with the gambling, Like I borrowed money,
Speaker 2: but that was you know, people, I think people knew
Speaker 2: what I was doing, but you know, I never actually
Speaker 2: took anything without asking for it or I know there
Speaker 2: was rumors at one stage that you know, I was
Speaker 2: stealing other players credit cards and stuff like that, and
Speaker 2: that never happened. So you know, I never stole or
Speaker 2: did anything like that, but I certainly lied to a
Speaker 2: lot of people. That's the sort of thing that it
Speaker 2: does to like, it just turns you into this shit
Speaker 2: person and a completely different person to who you are,
Speaker 2: and that's like, you know, you lose a lot of
Speaker 2: friends over that, and you also gain people in your
Speaker 2: life as well that you don't think, you know, we're
Speaker 2: maybe that you were that close with. So certain people
Speaker 2: step up and then certain people fall off. But I
Speaker 2: guess that's just the evolution of it. And you certainly
Speaker 2: don't hold anything over people for that because at the
Speaker 2: end of the day, you've got to take responsibility for actions.
Speaker 2: And I made those choices and I got myself into
Speaker 2: that mess. So it is what it is, and I
Speaker 2: guess you just have to move on with life.
Speaker 3: How much were you taking at the worst at the
Speaker 3: peak of the addiction.
Speaker 2: God, I think the most I ever you know, to
Speaker 2: give you a bit of I guess contexts.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Have you ever had surgery.
Speaker 3: I've had surgery, Yeah, I haven't.
Speaker 2: Have you ever had the oxycote and the end don't?
Speaker 3: No, I don't actually think I know. I had a
Speaker 3: morphine shot once heading into a appendicitis, and it turned
Speaker 3: me paranoid. The first one I went real paranoid, real quick,
Speaker 3: and the second one knocked me out. But I realized
Speaker 3: there's probably a reason why I've never been a drug taker.
Speaker 3: It doesn't agree with me. There's something in my brain
Speaker 3: that tells me that.
Speaker 2: Well, most people, most people have different reactions to drugs,
Speaker 2: And like I tell people now like open how much
Speaker 2: I took, and they're like, holy shit, you know one
Speaker 2: of them and it just puts me to sleep. But
Speaker 2: like the end Dome and the opioids, they never put
Speaker 2: me to sleep. Actually made me sort of more like
Speaker 2: I had a numbing feeling, but it never made me
Speaker 2: drowsy or anything like that. The most I overtook were
Speaker 2: talking in milligrams, So basically, one End Dome tablet is
Speaker 2: five milligrams of oxycodone. The most I ever took, I
Speaker 2: think was about one hundred and twenty milligrams, So to
Speaker 2: give you a context, that's twenty four tablets in one day.
Speaker 1: In one hit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in one hit, so you get a pack. So
Speaker 2: when you get out of surgery, you have you get
Speaker 2: a pack of twenty. So I would have that pack
Speaker 2: and four more.
Speaker 3: I'm showing my navity there. Are you lucky to be
Speaker 3: alive taking that amount?
Speaker 2: Well, you don't, you don't certainly don't take that amount
Speaker 2: straight away, like you know, I started, I think at two,
Speaker 2: so two tablets, and this.
Speaker 1: Is how bad it can get real us.
Speaker 2: This drug is really really potent, and that's it's an
Speaker 2: epidemic over in the States.
Speaker 3: Well, I was going to bring that up because there
Speaker 3: are so many documentaries about this and the way that
Speaker 3: it wasn't They don't have the same laws here over
Speaker 3: there as we do here. It is actually, despite the
Speaker 3: stories that you've just told, it is actually pretty good
Speaker 3: here from a medical point of view. When you see
Speaker 3: those stories from the States, because a lot of them
Speaker 3: end up turning to heroin and things like that. Did
Speaker 3: that get that bad for you?
Speaker 2: No? I don't think I would have, and I can't
Speaker 2: ever say I guess that I wouldn't have. But the
Speaker 2: thought I certainly, the thought of putting a needle inside
Speaker 2: me was never something that I always thought, like even
Speaker 2: at my worst, like when I was highly addicted, I
Speaker 2: never contemplated that, and the thought of that made me
Speaker 2: like want to just like but I wanted to get
Speaker 2: off them, Like so no, I don't. I don't think
Speaker 2: I would have ever gotten that bad. But look, you
Speaker 2: never know, like two more years of taking that and
Speaker 2: building up a tolerance. I was already out of high tolerance.
Speaker 2: But you know, I've heard stories of people taking well
Speaker 2: over two hundred milligrams. So you just build a tolerance.
Speaker 2: So you know, like I said, I started taking two
Speaker 2: tablets and within two years, I was taking twenty four
Speaker 2: of them. You know, you just take more. It's like
Speaker 2: you go to the gym. You started eighty kilos bench PRIs.
Speaker 2: You know, you keep going to the gym, you aout
Speaker 2: to lift more. Sort of same sort of concept, you know,
Speaker 2: you basically the more you do it, the more you
Speaker 2: can take. And everyone has that reaction when I tell them,
Speaker 2: they're like they nearly fall over, Like, but like, it's
Speaker 2: a lot. There's no doubting that it's a lot of drugs.
Speaker 2: But I understand how I got to that point.
Speaker 3: Did anyone else know that you? Like, did was kel
Speaker 3: aware of how much you were taking.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't think she was aware of how much I
Speaker 2: was taking. But she's been with me, We've been together
Speaker 2: twelve years now. She knew every time that I was
Speaker 2: on them, because you lose color in your face, like
Speaker 2: you know, there's certain characteristics, and I'm sure she'd be
Speaker 2: able to answer this more than I can. But she
Speaker 2: just knew, like she would always know. And in the end,
Speaker 2: she got to the point where she would, you know,
Speaker 2: she just worried about the kids. She'd like, literally, just
Speaker 2: I'll just continue lying. She just had two kids to
Speaker 2: look after him. She got to the point where she
Speaker 2: stopped trying to control me, like she just let me
Speaker 2: do it basically. That obviously had its consequences after I
Speaker 2: got cleaned and started to rebuild my life again. But yeah,
Speaker 2: at that point in time, I think she'd just had enough.
Speaker 3: How bad did things get? What were some of the
Speaker 3: things that you did whilst high? Do you say high
Speaker 3: when it's painkillers terminal?
Speaker 2: I mean you are you are high intoxicated? Like I
Speaker 2: don't know you Like for me, it was just about living.
Speaker 2: Like I would never say that I'm getting high today
Speaker 2: or anything like that. It was just like I said,
Speaker 2: it just became part of my routine.
Speaker 1: You know. The hardest thing for me was I.
Speaker 2: Wanted together, Like I just hated what I was doing,
Speaker 2: Like I genuinely hated it, and it caused me so
Speaker 2: much guilt ultimately, like you know, like I tried to
Speaker 2: harm myself. You know, I crashed myself in, crushed my
Speaker 2: car into a pole deliberately, and.
Speaker 1: It was just because I had I had enough.
Speaker 2: I didn't want to do what I was doing anymore,
Speaker 2: Like I couldn't keep doing it, but I couldn't stop.
Speaker 2: Like so it's like that conflicting you know, like my
Speaker 2: brain Like inside me, I was like, this is not
Speaker 2: who I am, this is not the person I want
Speaker 2: to be. But at the same time, it's like I
Speaker 2: just can't stop doing this, like I can't, Like it
Speaker 2: was just like it was part of me, and I
Speaker 2: was like I'd just never seen any sort of life
Speaker 2: without it. Whilst you're in the grips of it, you
Speaker 2: can't see a life without it. That's the beauty about
Speaker 2: being able to help people now is because you actually
Speaker 2: know what they're feeling. Like I literally can put myself
Speaker 2: in their shoes and literally I know what they're thinking,
Speaker 2: but I also now know that it's possible, like I'm
Speaker 2: living proof.
Speaker 3: Of it, And that's why you speak up, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the only reason why I do. I know
Speaker 2: for myself. I know myself, like being able.
Speaker 3: To relate to lived experience.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like being able to talk to someone who'd actually
Speaker 2: been through it was like so much better than talking
Speaker 2: to it. And this is no disrespect to psychologists and
Speaker 2: psychiatrists because they've certainly helped me, but in another way.
Speaker 2: But just being able to talk about your problems, like
Speaker 2: the actual feelings that you're having, like with someone else
Speaker 2: that's been through it or is going through it, is
Speaker 2: just like it's comforting and it does help.
Speaker 3: So less judgment I imagine as well, even if they're
Speaker 3: not judging you, just within your own mind.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost like you can do it together.
Speaker 2: Like I don't know, it's just it's like some of
Speaker 2: the people that I met in rehab, you know, I
Speaker 2: still stay in contact with it, like a few of
Speaker 2: them now, and it's just like you feel like you
Speaker 2: have some like this sort of bond with them, like
Speaker 2: and it's like you feel like you're obliged to make
Speaker 2: sure that they're still doing well and like they're still
Speaker 2: on top of things and community.
Speaker 3: Yeah, tell me about the night you tried to drive
Speaker 3: to Sydney.
Speaker 2: That was my first rehab, so I've been to rehab
Speaker 2: three times. The first time I went was I think
Speaker 2: halfway through the first year. I got back to Collingwood
Speaker 2: and I think the club at the stage announced that
Speaker 2: I was having a couple of weeks off to deal
Speaker 2: with mental health issues, which essentially I was the day
Speaker 2: that I announced that. The next day I was actually
Speaker 2: flying out to Sydney with Jeff Walsh at the time,
Speaker 2: he was the footy manager. And yeah, I couldn't sleep
Speaker 2: that night. I think Kelly and I had some had
Speaker 2: an argument. I was just like, you know, I felt
Speaker 2: like really wide, I couldn't get asleep. Obviously had plenty
Speaker 2: of volume and shit like that like that. You know
Speaker 2: that stuff used to be everywhere. So I think it
Speaker 2: was around four am, might have been a little bit earlier.
Speaker 2: I decided that I was going to drive to Sydney
Speaker 2: instead of getting a plane the next day, and at
Speaker 2: that stage, I think I'd had ten vallium over the
Speaker 2: course of the night. So I jumped in my car
Speaker 2: drove to Sydney, I think two hours in.
Speaker 3: Think Kell had tried to stop me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Kelly had tried to stop me, but there was
Speaker 2: no stuff for me, to be honest, like, yeah, I
Speaker 2: was getting through that front.
Speaker 1: Door, no matter.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I remember basically falling asleep. Well I don't
Speaker 2: remember it because I fell asleep, but I remember fishing
Speaker 2: down the highway. Yeah, I was driving along. I think
Speaker 2: I had cruised at one hundred and ten and yeah,
Speaker 2: just I always thought to myself, you know, how do
Speaker 2: people just fall asleep like in a second, like and
Speaker 2: it happened to him, and then I understand and now how.
Speaker 1: People fall asleep at the wheel.
Speaker 2: But I literally just remember I hit the barrier and
Speaker 2: then yeah, fishy down the highway literally one hundred and
Speaker 2: ten kilometers an hour. So like really lucky to be alive,
Speaker 2: to be honest.
Speaker 3: And that you didn't hit someone else.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, if it had been at a different time,
Speaker 2: you know, like because it was so early in the morning,
Speaker 2: there was not a lot of cars on the road,
Speaker 2: but yeah, you're right, if it had been a busier time, like, yeah,
Speaker 2: it could have easily caused a lot of carnage.
Speaker 1: But again that just you don't think straight, like you
Speaker 1: just you live in another world.
Speaker 3: How do you when you think back to that, how
Speaker 3: do you feel about that and the decisions you were making,
Speaker 3: you know, knowing you had a wife and kids at
Speaker 3: home and things like that.
Speaker 1: Oh it's terrible.
Speaker 2: But again, like you don't you just don't think about
Speaker 2: and this is what these things do to you. You
Speaker 2: don't think about anyone else other than yourself. Literally just
Speaker 2: all about you and what you want to do and
Speaker 2: how you're going to get your next fixed. Like it
Speaker 2: doesn't you know, everything else is just you know, you
Speaker 2: tell you end up telling yourself like that you're doing.
Speaker 2: You know, you've been the best dad, You've been the
Speaker 2: best husband that you can be. And look, maybe you
Speaker 2: are in the circumstances, but you certainly like I certainly
Speaker 2: wasn't being the best dad and the best husband like
Speaker 2: I knew.
Speaker 1: I could be.
Speaker 2: But like when you're full of drugs that stop you
Speaker 2: from feeling any sort of emotion, Like it's not that
Speaker 2: you don't care, it's just like those feelings just don't
Speaker 2: come into your mind, like in hindsight and thinking about
Speaker 2: it now, yeah, that's literally the way I should have
Speaker 2: been thinking, But yeah, you just literally become the most selfish,
Speaker 2: self centered person that steps foot on the earth. Like
Speaker 2: it's just that's just what sort of happens, and that's
Speaker 2: why it's such a shit thing. And you know a
Speaker 2: lot of people might have their perceptions of me, different.
Speaker 1: Thoughts about me, but.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're literally not the person that And that's the thing.
Speaker 2: Because people had known me from when I was first
Speaker 2: at Collingwood to when I came back. It was like,
Speaker 2: you know, people were seeing a different person, and I
Speaker 2: was like I was someone.
Speaker 1: That was really just lost, like no idea what I
Speaker 1: was doing.
Speaker 2: And it's unfortunate because some of those people will never
Speaker 2: see it like that. They'll just hold on to that
Speaker 2: sort of stuff and won't really want to understand it.
Speaker 2: And that's okay, that's their prerogative, but you know, you do,
Speaker 2: you just become someone that you're not like, and it
Speaker 2: turns you into a different person.
Speaker 3: Yours you're listening to. Ordinarily, speaking with Dame Beams, you
Speaker 3: mentioned it before the day that you got in your
Speaker 3: car and you wanted to hurt yourself. Tell me about
Speaker 3: the mental space that you were in at that time.
Speaker 2: It was not something I planned and I didn't, Like
Speaker 2: I must say that I didn't want to kill myself,
Speaker 2: but I just had enough of everything I was doing.
Speaker 2: And it was literally a split decision, like I was
Speaker 2: literally I was driving around meaninglessly, like I had no idea,
Speaker 2: Like it happened in Donvale. I don't think I've ever
Speaker 2: been to don Val in my life. Literally, I have
Speaker 2: no reason to be in Donvale. So I don't even
Speaker 2: know why I was in don Val. I know i'd
Speaker 2: been to I'd been to a doctor the day before.
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure the night and Kelly will probably be
Speaker 2: out to into this better than I can, but I'm
Speaker 2: pretty sure I slept at my factory that night before,
Speaker 2: and then the next day is basically you know, when
Speaker 2: it happened, Like I just was d Like I said,
Speaker 2: I was just driving around without any reason, like I
Speaker 2: was just literally driving. And I remember I've seen I
Speaker 2: seen a poll like at the corner of my eye,
Speaker 2: and I literally I drove past it, and then I
Speaker 2: turned around, I drove a little bit further past the poll,
Speaker 2: and I did a U turn and came back and
Speaker 2: then did another U turn and then just drove straight
Speaker 2: into it. And I didn't do it like I could
Speaker 2: have droven driven a lot faster into it, so I
Speaker 2: only hit it, I think at sixty k but sixty
Speaker 2: k is still enough to give you a bit of
Speaker 2: a shock. I just remember the airbags just smacking me
Speaker 2: in the face. And yeah, there was people that came obviously,
Speaker 2: Like I think it was around three o'clock in the afternoon,
Speaker 2: so I think school had just finished as well, So
Speaker 2: it must have been close to a school, because I
Speaker 2: know there was a fair bit of you know, fair
Speaker 2: few people that came to my aid. And then from there,
Speaker 2: I remember being taken to hospital just for like sort
Speaker 2: of a general check up, where I spent the night,
Speaker 2: and then the next day that was when I went
Speaker 2: to rehab for the third time. And yeah, that was
Speaker 2: the last time I ever went to rehab. And it
Speaker 2: was also the last time I ever took drug so
Speaker 2: that was. Yeah, the day I crashed my car was
Speaker 2: literally the day, like the day I'd stopped taking drugs.
Speaker 3: Do you remember the first time you saw cal were
Speaker 3: your kids? After that?
Speaker 2: I remember the first time I was seeing Kelly, Yeah,
Speaker 2: because I was in the I was in the hospital,
Speaker 2: and yeah, she just came in and she was understandably
Speaker 2: quite upset, and she just I remember, I remember the words,
Speaker 2: she said, what are you doing? And she was crying,
Speaker 2: and yeah, I couldn't tell you what I was doing.
Speaker 2: I don't know what I was doing, but yeah, I
Speaker 2: know that i'd had enough of like everything that I
Speaker 2: was doing. I just didn't know how to get the
Speaker 2: help that I needed. You know, there's been lots of
Speaker 2: people trying, and you helped me and do different things
Speaker 2: and try different things and see different specialists.
Speaker 1: But none of them seemed to work.
Speaker 2: So I just felt like things started to become different,
Speaker 2: like I had a different treatment plan. Not that they
Speaker 2: weren't taking it seriously, but I just felt like it
Speaker 2: became like, hey, this is really serious now. And I
Speaker 2: think that, yeah, they started started putting some different steps
Speaker 2: in place, and you know, I still see an addiction
Speaker 2: specialist now, so I still see that particular person that
Speaker 2: I met that time in READI had where I just
Speaker 2: after I'd crashed the car. The other thing I think
Speaker 2: that happened was I decided in my own head that
Speaker 2: I was never going to go back to football. I
Speaker 2: genuinely think that like seriously helped me be able to
Speaker 2: move forward as well, and it's not that foot he
Speaker 2: was holding me back. But I think I just felt
Speaker 2: so much judgment in a football environment. I don't feel
Speaker 2: like anyone really wanted to understand what I was going through.
Speaker 2: And I don't feel like really and even really wanted.
Speaker 1: To help either. And that's sad.
Speaker 2: Because, like I feel like I gave a lot to
Speaker 2: that club, and there was some you know, there was
Speaker 2: some players there that I thought I had really good
Speaker 2: friendships with, and it was like they didn't really want
Speaker 2: to know me or understand what I was going through,
Speaker 2: and this was a time where I needed someone like that.
Speaker 1: I needed a friend.
Speaker 2: But you know, like I said, I don't hold grudges
Speaker 2: over people. I just struggle to understand sometimes how you know,
Speaker 2: other people can act certain ways, you know that I
Speaker 2: know there was a stage there where that, you know,
Speaker 2: some of the players that were closer to me were
Speaker 2: told not to talk to me, which I just found baffling,
Speaker 2: Like I just don't know how that makes any sense.
Speaker 1: Like I if the shooter were on the other foot
Speaker 1: and one.
Speaker 2: Of those particular players were in trouble or dealing with
Speaker 2: some really serious stuff. And then someone came to me
Speaker 2: and said that you can't talk to them. I'd tell
Speaker 2: them to go and get stuff like because that's my
Speaker 2: friend and I'm not going to leave them behind. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I just there's some things that I don't understand. But
Speaker 2: I still haven't really spoken to those people.
Speaker 3: But that's all right, Devil's Advocate. It is part of it, though,
Speaker 3: that when you're in the midst of something you don't
Speaker 3: necessarily know, like you've spoken about, right, that you didn't
Speaker 3: know the hurt that you were doing to Kel or
Speaker 3: the other people. Is it that you don't necessarily recollect
Speaker 3: those times as well and how they lived through that
Speaker 3: when you weren't present.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I don't like not trying to justify it. No, No,
Speaker 2: I don't disregard that, Like I certainly understand that, you know,
Speaker 2: they would have felt an element of hurt as well,
Speaker 2: because I liked all of them, and that's I like
Speaker 2: to everyone. But what I wanted, and this is the
Speaker 2: thing I've never got a chance to do. I feel
Speaker 2: like I'd be able to accept it a lot more
Speaker 2: if I just got the chance to be able to
Speaker 2: be able to speak to them and just try and
Speaker 2: articulate what I was actually sort of going through and
Speaker 2: try and explain to them what addiction does to you
Speaker 2: and how you actually start to think. You know, maybe
Speaker 2: that would just help them understand why I made some
Speaker 2: of the decisions that I made or why I did
Speaker 2: what I did. But that's the thing that hurt. I
Speaker 2: never got a chance to do that, Like it was
Speaker 2: just like you know, white hands that I don't want
Speaker 2: to really even I don't really even.
Speaker 1: Want to know.
Speaker 2: And again, like that's that's their choice, but you know,
Speaker 2: I just think there's other ways to sort of particularly
Speaker 2: when you've valued those friendships, like they weren't just you know,
Speaker 2: friendships that i'd made over two years, like you know,
Speaker 2: these were you know, long long term friends, and just
Speaker 2: didn't want to hear I guess my side of the story,
Speaker 2: and or not even the story, but just what I
Speaker 2: was going through, because you know, I don't downplay what
Speaker 2: I was going through at all.
Speaker 1: It was you know, it was very very serious, Like.
Speaker 2: It wasn't something that you know, it just happened overnight
Speaker 2: where I woke up and I didn't feel well, Like
Speaker 2: you know, this is a very complex and serious situation,
Speaker 2: and I just feel like that, you know, I was
Speaker 2: never really given the chance to be able to just
Speaker 2: share what I was actually going through and vice versa.
Speaker 1: They you know, they.
Speaker 2: Could have exactly told me what they were feeling as well,
Speaker 2: Like you know, there was just no dialogue. Like it
Speaker 2: was just sort of disappointing. And it's the old cliche,
Speaker 2: like you know, you find out who your true friends are,
Speaker 2: and it's like it's so true, like you just do
Speaker 2: like people, like I said, people that I didn't think
Speaker 2: were really close, and now some of my closest friends.
Speaker 2: So it's it's interesting.
Speaker 3: I hope that you find some peace with some of
Speaker 3: those friendships because I know I know how much a
Speaker 3: few of them mean to you, and I hope that
Speaker 3: time is a great healer and maybe that those things
Speaker 3: can get better. You speak about the two addictions, the
Speaker 3: drugs and the gambling. How bad was the gambling?
Speaker 2: Ok, in terms of figures, Like I couldn't give you
Speaker 2: an exact figure, but I think it would have been,
Speaker 2: if not close, it would have been over a million
Speaker 2: dollars that I've lost, so a lot of money, and
Speaker 2: that that was probably the hardest thing.
Speaker 1: To swallow.
Speaker 2: I reckon like because this like now having kids, you know,
Speaker 2: I could have set them up, you know, big time,
Speaker 2: with particularly some of the money that I was earning,
Speaker 2: you know, when I particularly when I went to Brisbane.
Speaker 2: You know, I was earning some really good money and
Speaker 2: essentially I just pissed it up against the wall.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I was lucky that I had some assets as well,
Speaker 2: so I didn't you know, completely blowed a lot, but
Speaker 2: it didn't give me really any ability to be able
Speaker 2: to save, you know, to put it this way, like
Speaker 2: I went to Brisbane, I'm just under eight hundred grand
Speaker 2: a year and really don't have much to show for it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: like I said, I was lucky that I had you know,
Speaker 2: I already had a house in Melbourne. But yeah, I
Speaker 2: certainly could have set myself up a lot better than
Speaker 2: what I did. But yeah, I mean, these things happen
Speaker 2: and you just got to learn from them. Like I said,
Speaker 2: I try not to get caught up and dwell on
Speaker 2: it too much, like because it just it does.
Speaker 1: It just puts you in a negative frame of mind
Speaker 1: and it makes you feel shit.
Speaker 2: It's just it's important, though, not to sweep it under
Speaker 2: the carpet. Like you do have to face it and
Speaker 2: you acknowledge the fact that you did stuff up, and
Speaker 2: you did lose a lot of money, but I think,
Speaker 2: I think that I'm much better placed for that now.
Speaker 2: I know it's weird saying that, but I think, you know,
Speaker 2: the way I basically manage money now is completely different
Speaker 2: the way I did manage my money. So and look,
Speaker 2: it's not all doom and gloom like, you know, like
Speaker 2: I'm running a pretty successful business now and you know,
Speaker 2: think I've been able to rebuild a lot of things.
Speaker 3: And are you in debt to anyone now? No?
Speaker 1: No, no.
Speaker 2: So I was only in debt to a couple of
Speaker 2: people when I was at my worst, and that was
Speaker 2: wiped pretty quickly. That wasn't something that I didn't get
Speaker 2: into too much trouble with. Like the debts that I
Speaker 2: had weren't you know, catastrophic, like I could pay them back,
Speaker 2: So I was. I guess I was lucky in that regard,
Speaker 2: Like I didn't have to sell my house or do
Speaker 2: anything like that to you know, cover my gambling debts.
Speaker 2: Basically just everything that I had i'd spent. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I haven't. I haven't been in debt to anyone now
Speaker 2: for a good good part of two years.
Speaker 1: So yeah, been able to you know from that.
Speaker 2: We sold our place in Q but we bought a
Speaker 2: bigger family house and it's beautiful.
Speaker 3: We're sitting in it right now, nice high ceilings, trees
Speaker 3: all around.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was just it was also important, I think,
Speaker 2: to get away from that house that had a lot
Speaker 2: of shit memories as well, Like there's a real thing
Speaker 2: guilt by association.
Speaker 1: Every time I was in that house, I felt like.
Speaker 2: It had a lot of bad sort of memories, even
Speaker 2: like little things like the couch, Like sitting on that
Speaker 2: couch where I always used to gamble, the remote that
Speaker 2: you use, like just you know.
Speaker 1: A lot of habits that start to form.
Speaker 2: And I actually share this a lot with a lot
Speaker 2: of hopeful recovering gamble addicts.
Speaker 1: Now it will help me for a bit.
Speaker 2: I felt getting rid of a lot of the things
Speaker 2: that you know, were associated with gambling. Like we're just
Speaker 2: getting new things. Yeah, like even a phone, like getting
Speaker 2: a new phone, like it's just amazing the psyche, Like
Speaker 2: you think with a new phone, it's like, okay, I
Speaker 2: don't have to gamble on this phone. The same thing
Speaker 2: with the couch, Like we got a new couch because
Speaker 2: you know, sitting on the couch flicking the TV on.
Speaker 2: Gambling was like sort of what I did, so like
Speaker 2: just being able to change I feel those things was
Speaker 2: funnily enough, like it actually helped. So like I say
Speaker 2: to people and if you can afford it, like yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: maybe have a crack at doing something like that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: there's certainly other alternatives, but it was just one thing
Speaker 2: that helped me.
Speaker 3: What do you think it was with the gambling, because
Speaker 3: I find it fascinating and I think it's it's a
Speaker 3: massive issue, and particularly with young men, particularly in sport.
Speaker 3: I'm super concerned about, you know, friends and where that's going.
Speaker 3: But what was it for you?
Speaker 2: Do you think I think it was a social Well
Speaker 2: it's sort of funny because when I first started gambling,
Speaker 2: it was about the social aspect, Like I loved going
Speaker 2: to the races and putting a suit on and just
Speaker 2: being amongst like that sort of atmosphere and.
Speaker 3: That I've seen you there. We had good fun together.
Speaker 1: It's just a.
Speaker 2: Good time, like that time of year, like spring, like
Speaker 2: you wake up and it just you know, the air
Speaker 2: smells good, like it's just like I don't know, there's
Speaker 2: something about that time of year that I used to love,
Speaker 2: Like just.
Speaker 3: Off season as well let your hair down.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think, like, really, up until I went
Speaker 2: to Brisbane, I don't think I never felt like I
Speaker 2: had an issue, like I deep down, Like I think
Speaker 2: most people will know when they're developing an issue or
Speaker 2: if they think they've got an issue within themselves, and
Speaker 2: I don't feel like I.
Speaker 1: Ever had that before I left to go to Brisbane.
Speaker 2: So I don't know, maybe it was it's hard to pinpoint,
Speaker 2: but I feel like once I got to Brisbane and
Speaker 2: I was earning more money, it was almost like I
Speaker 2: had a lot of money and I was like I
Speaker 2: didn't know what to do with it. And you know,
Speaker 2: I obviously gambled before, like you know, I got to Brisbane,
Speaker 2: so it was like I just started gambling more and
Speaker 2: then obviously you lose more, and then it started to
Speaker 2: just become a thing that was ingrained in me, Like.
Speaker 1: It was like goal was obsessed with.
Speaker 2: So it's just hard to explain, Like it wasn't even
Speaker 2: about winning, like it just became part of part of
Speaker 2: me and what I did, and it kept me like
Speaker 2: it was almost like my hobby. Like you know, people
Speaker 2: go out and their spare time and play golf it
Speaker 2: was like I gambled, like it was weird, Like it
Speaker 2: soon became not a social thing, like it actually became
Speaker 2: something that I like to do by myself away from people.
Speaker 2: And actually I started to isolate myself doing it.
Speaker 3: Because you were trying to cover it up from people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think once it got bad, definitely.
Speaker 3: What sort of bets were you putting on?
Speaker 1: How hard this is?
Speaker 2: Like, see, I never used to bet, Like a lot
Speaker 2: of gambling addicts that I that I try and help.
Speaker 2: Now they gamble like literally on everything, like so it's sport,
Speaker 2: it's bad minton, like it's just yeah, whatever they can
Speaker 2: gamble on, they will gamble on. Where it was a
Speaker 2: bit different for me, like I only have a gamble
Speaker 2: on horse racing, like I was. I never used to
Speaker 2: bet on sport. I didn't get into anything like that.
Speaker 2: So I don't know what it was about the horses,
Speaker 2: Like I just loved watching them race. It's interesting now
Speaker 2: even now, like I'll see, you know, the horse racing
Speaker 2: will come on and I find myself actually interested in it,
Speaker 2: But I don't feel the urge to gamble at all now.
Speaker 2: So it's I kind of feel like I've always just
Speaker 2: liked horse racing, and then you know, the gambling was
Speaker 2: just sort of always associated with horse racing, so I
Speaker 2: engaged in it. And then, yeah, before I knew it,
Speaker 2: like it got bad when Dad died because I started
Speaker 2: using it as a bit of a you know, like
Speaker 2: I was by myself. I literally couldn't give a shit
Speaker 2: about anything at that stage because you know, you know,
Speaker 2: I was feeling really sorry for myself and there was
Speaker 2: a lot of grief and you know, money, I didn't care,
Speaker 2: Like I didn't think about it, Like I just used
Speaker 2: to gamble, just bet and didn't ever worry about it
Speaker 2: or didn't care if I lost, didn't care if I won.
Speaker 2: And then it just became a real big issue, like
Speaker 2: it just manifested itself and it just became out of control. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it was like it was just something that was now
Speaker 2: ingrained in me, and like it was the thing that
Speaker 2: I did every day. I woke up, you know, I
Speaker 2: opened it, like, rolled over, checked my phone, had a
Speaker 2: look at what was racing today, and yeah, I'd never
Speaker 2: used to do form or anything.
Speaker 1: I'd just sit there and I'm just some races. I'd
Speaker 1: pick out four.
Speaker 2: Or five horses and I'd outlay a thousand bucks over
Speaker 2: you know, five different horses, Like there was no method
Speaker 2: or anything.
Speaker 1: It was just stupid, really, it was.
Speaker 2: You know, I used to like chasing a rough y
Speaker 2: as well, Like I used to love chasing like you know,
Speaker 2: something at big odds and like having two or three
Speaker 2: hundred bucks on it, like you know, I always I
Speaker 2: always now say to people, I said, nothing your wind
Speaker 2: is going to ever change your life, like unless you
Speaker 2: win a million two million dollars like which you're not
Speaker 2: going to do, like because you obviously have to outlay
Speaker 2: a lot to even win that. It's nothing to do
Speaker 2: now is going to change your life, Like it's literally not.
Speaker 2: But if you stop gambling, it will change life, like
Speaker 2: you will live a better life. So it's like a
Speaker 2: simple way to look at it, like they always, like
Speaker 2: I think they think about it and go, you're right, like.
Speaker 3: You know, actually makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like if you nothing, you do like having your
Speaker 2: ten bucks on you know, because there's different gamblers out there, like,
Speaker 2: and it's all in perspective to what people earn. So
Speaker 2: like you know, I was earning a lot of money,
Speaker 2: so I was able to bet more, but some people
Speaker 2: don't earn as much, but they're spending their whole paycheck
Speaker 2: on it.
Speaker 1: And it's just.
Speaker 2: Like having your ten dollars bet on something that's going
Speaker 2: to pay you thirty dollars. Like that's not going to
Speaker 2: change your life, Like nothing that you do now is
Speaker 2: going to change your life.
Speaker 1: But literally, if.
Speaker 2: You stop doing this, I guarantee you change your life,
Speaker 2: Like you will live a better life for it. It'll
Speaker 2: improve everything, It'll prove your own happiness, it'll improve your relationships.
Speaker 2: Like it just yeah, it's just a toxic thing. And unfortunately,
Speaker 2: like you sort of touched on briefly, like it's a
Speaker 2: big issue in footy, Like I was around and exposed
Speaker 2: to a lot of particularly the younger guys, that I
Speaker 2: could just see that they're in trouble. I don't think
Speaker 2: the AFL or clubs do anywhere near enough for it.
Speaker 2: They I mean, they try and educate people, but there's
Speaker 2: been now a few people that have had gambling issues.
Speaker 2: How many clubs have I haven't had a club bring
Speaker 2: me and asked me to come and talk to their
Speaker 2: younger players about the potential dangers and you know what,
Speaker 2: I what I went through. I haven't had the AFL
Speaker 2: approached me to do it, like, why wouldn't you engage
Speaker 2: in some of you know, David Schwartz has been the
Speaker 2: most publicized XAFL footballer that's been through.
Speaker 1: Some gambling issues.
Speaker 2: I don't know how many times he's been out to
Speaker 2: football clubs and spoken to players about, you know, how
Speaker 2: easily you can lose everything, Like, I just think there's
Speaker 2: a there's a real opportunity there for ex AFL players
Speaker 2: to come and talk to people because they've done it.
Speaker 2: I've done it like, I've literally been through it like
Speaker 2: and I can give some of those kids some real advice.
Speaker 2: I do it for nothing I don't need. It's not
Speaker 2: even about the money. It's literally just about helping people
Speaker 2: not make the same mistakes that I did. Because you can.
Speaker 1: Really like football.
Speaker 2: They're in a really privileged situation. You earn money, you
Speaker 2: can really set yourself up if you do it smartly.
Speaker 2: And there's there's players out there that have done it
Speaker 2: and that's great, but there's a lot out there that
Speaker 2: just piss it up against the wall, and you know,
Speaker 2: I think there's more that can be done so that
Speaker 2: doesn't happen.
Speaker 3: Did you have a day or a loss where you
Speaker 3: went a ship. I've just lost a lot of money there. Like,
Speaker 3: did you have a day where it's smashing the face
Speaker 3: that you were doing some damage?
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, there was, you know there was days.
Speaker 2: You know, the race is usually finish around five or six,
Speaker 2: but I sometimes yeah, going even into the trots and
Speaker 2: stuff like that, that that went on at night. But yeah,
Speaker 2: there was there were some days where I just would
Speaker 2: go and have a shower and just just cry in
Speaker 2: the shower, like I just Yeah, there was some days
Speaker 2: where you lose a lot of money. I think the
Speaker 2: most I ever lost in a day was about fifty zer.
Speaker 2: So yeah, you can really start getting in a big hole.
Speaker 2: But the thing that was, I guess shit for me
Speaker 2: was it was like I never never really like ran
Speaker 2: out of money, like so I could always do it
Speaker 2: the next day, like and it just kept going and
Speaker 2: going and going to the point where like you do
Speaker 2: run out of money then you know, that's basically when
Speaker 2: I stopped.
Speaker 1: It was like I just couldn't keep.
Speaker 2: You know, once you start borrowing money from other people,
Speaker 2: that's when like you can start to get yourself into
Speaker 2: some real trouble.
Speaker 3: How does that feel within yourself when you have to
Speaker 3: go and ask made, I don't know who who you
Speaker 3: are borrowing money from? How does that feels?
Speaker 2: It's the worst hobnestly, it still makes me feel shit.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: It's like you've been poisoned and you just can't stop,
Speaker 2: like and you'll do anything to keep going.
Speaker 3: Were you honest or did you lie to people?
Speaker 1: When I lied to people flat out? Yeah?
Speaker 3: What sort of laws would you make up?
Speaker 1: Just?
Speaker 2: You know, there would be times where I'd say that,
Speaker 2: you know, I wanted to buy Kelly your present, I
Speaker 2: didn't want it to see you on the bank card
Speaker 2: or like, you know, you just think of shit like
Speaker 2: absolutely crap. You just make it up and it's terrible. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I feel absolutely shit about it. But again it's just
Speaker 2: like I actually understand why I made those decisions, Like
Speaker 2: I understand how addiction changes the pathways in your brain, like,
Speaker 2: and I understand how people start to think.
Speaker 3: I suppose at some point you have to forgive yourself
Speaker 3: if you're ever going to move.
Speaker 2: Like you can't, like I can't just keep sitting here
Speaker 2: and dwelling on the things that I've done. All I
Speaker 2: can focus on is you know what I'm doing now,
Speaker 2: and that's building a future for our family. That's literally
Speaker 2: all you can do. You can't go and change anything,
Speaker 2: like that's not possible.
Speaker 1: You just can't.
Speaker 2: Like, so it's about, Okay, how do I learn from that? Like,
Speaker 2: how do I get better from it? I think I'm
Speaker 2: a firm believe there's always a positive to come out
Speaker 2: of any bad situation, and in many ways, Like, and
Speaker 2: this is going to sound really weird, but I'm sort
Speaker 2: of like I'm glad that it's happened because I feel
Speaker 2: like it's made me a much much better person. Whether
Speaker 2: or not I would have become the person that I
Speaker 2: am now without it, I don't know, but I feel
Speaker 2: like it's definitely I've definitely learned to shitload from the
Speaker 2: amount of mistakes and the things that I've done, It's
Speaker 2: made me a much more trustworthy, honest person.
Speaker 3: Like because isn't that ironic?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just so weird because I guess some of
Speaker 2: the people you know that did forgive me and have
Speaker 2: stuck by me, it's like now they're sort of like
Speaker 2: it's like they're reaping the rewards of the person that
Speaker 2: I am now, Like you know that, Like and like
Speaker 2: I'd hope that I'm a good person to be around,
Speaker 2: and I feel like, you know, the relationships that mean
Speaker 2: the most to me have not. I wouldn't say like
Speaker 2: they've benefited because of all of it, because I certainly
Speaker 2: wish that none of it happened, because I'd obviously put
Speaker 2: them through a lot of shit, and I've put myself
Speaker 2: through a lot of ship. But fortunately for me, like
Speaker 2: I didn't lose my wife, Like.
Speaker 3: Are you surprised? I know that sounds like a horrible question.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like no one deserves to be put through that.
Speaker 1: No one does, and.
Speaker 2: Particularly you know Kelly, who's you know, she's a great person,
Speaker 2: and she's an awesome mother, and you know she was
Speaker 2: pretty much won out for most of that first two
Speaker 2: years of Ruby's life. You know, we went through some challenges,
Speaker 2: like you know, I'd moved out for a little bit,
Speaker 2: and you know, we both needed to sort of figure
Speaker 2: out what we wanted to do moving forward. And you know,
Speaker 2: it certainly wasn't all roses. There's a lot of trust
Speaker 2: that was lost, Like that's the biggest thing.
Speaker 1: And she'll she'll tell you that.
Speaker 3: Because did she know when did she know the extent
Speaker 3: of your gambling?
Speaker 2: Probably when she was started to see the accounts, And
Speaker 2: it's funny, we haven't really spoken in depth about like
Speaker 2: any of I guess when she knew and like, yeah,
Speaker 2: like it's it's not something that we've really ever spoken about.
Speaker 2: It's just you know, it's like she just she just knew,
Speaker 2: and she knew she had to step in and just
Speaker 2: make sure that it was stopped.
Speaker 3: Like because she took control, didn't she the finance wasn't everything?
Speaker 2: Yeah, she pretty much when I stopped. Yeah, she basically
Speaker 2: like I basically lived on an allowance really like I
Speaker 2: had a key card that she'd put money on. I
Speaker 2: had no access to funds.
Speaker 1: I had had zero.
Speaker 3: I couldn't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I couldn't get anything.
Speaker 2: So there was times there where I'd get it a
Speaker 2: petrol station to fill up my car on my bank
Speaker 2: would my car would decline and I'd have to call Kelli,
Speaker 2: like Kelly, can you out put some money.
Speaker 1: I'm like the little kid to give that look.
Speaker 2: I put myself in that situation and you have to
Speaker 2: I say it to yeah, like I say it to
Speaker 2: people now that reach out. I'm like, you have to
Speaker 2: hand over control, Like you can't. You cannot have control over.
Speaker 3: Any money at the moment, and let go of the ego.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, literally just treat it as if like you're
Speaker 2: a little kid again getting pocket money. But I mean, yeah,
Speaker 2: it sounds stupid, and it sounds stupid.
Speaker 3: It's just it's not humbling nature. It is just I
Speaker 3: respect it. I think I respect that. I mean, I
Speaker 3: guess you had to do.
Speaker 2: But it's happening because you've put yourself in this situation,
Speaker 2: like you need to take responsibility for this, and you
Speaker 2: know it's not forever, Like you know, I have access
Speaker 2: to money now, it's not forever. It's just the best
Speaker 2: thing for you right now is to not have any
Speaker 2: access to money. Don't don't even tempt yourself with it.
Speaker 2: If you want to go and spend that one hundred
Speaker 2: dollars that you've got for the week on gambling, go
Speaker 2: for it. You're not getting another hundred, So yeah, you
Speaker 2: have some you have to start really actually thinking about
Speaker 2: how you're going to live. You've proven you've proven it
Speaker 2: to yourself, you've proven other people you can't control money,
Speaker 2: so you need to just remove yourself from it. And
Speaker 2: I think it's important to also set goals, like even
Speaker 2: if you just can still see the accounts every now
Speaker 2: and then we can't access them, just so you can
Speaker 2: see money is growing. It's also like positive reinforcement as well,
Speaker 2: like to see it's almost like that high of seeing,
Speaker 2: you know, your bank account growing. It's like potentially that
Speaker 2: high that people get when they gamble, like because you
Speaker 2: need you need some financial goals and you need a
Speaker 2: different way of thinking about your finances.
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's a good way of putting it. Just
Speaker 3: you need to see the bank account ticking over and
Speaker 3: see that you're you know, you are building something that
Speaker 3: you're physically seeing with your own eyes otherwise.
Speaker 1: And like you build trust as well.
Speaker 2: That's the biggest thing that you build, Like you start
Speaker 2: building trust back up, and that takes a lot, Like
Speaker 2: it's easy to lose, but it takes a long time
Speaker 2: to rebuild.
Speaker 3: It takes some time. You're listening to ordinarily speaking with
Speaker 3: Dame Beams, keep listening for part two of this episode,
Speaker 3: when we hear from his wife Kelly, who gives an
Speaker 3: incredibly honest account of what it's like to live with
Speaker 3: an addict. It definitely takes its tolling you, like it's
Speaker 3: so heavy, like you can't actually explain explain it. You
Speaker 3: feel like you're being betrayed every single day, every minute,
Speaker 3: you know, and then it causes a resentment, and you know,
Speaker 3: all this underlying contempt and stuff that you're left to
Speaker 3: deal with after