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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Family Podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, one of the things that I would always ask

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Speaker 2: is is your child taking responsibility for the choices?

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Speaker 3: And now here is the stars of our show, my

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Speaker 3: mom and dad.

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Speaker 1: Hello, this is doctor Justin Colson.

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Speaker 4: I'm here with my wife highly mishappy Families with the

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Speaker 4: parents of six kids. I've written six books about raising

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Speaker 4: happy families, and last week on the podcast, we had

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Speaker 4: a chat with Todd Rose about standardization in education.

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Speaker 2: Whether or not you can succeed or not is as

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Speaker 2: much about finding that fit between who you are and

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Speaker 2: the environment.

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Speaker 3: Todd is a professor at the Harvard Graduate School of Education.

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Speaker 3: He's also the author of two best selling books, Dark

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Speaker 3: Horse and The End of Average.

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Speaker 1: Love those books.

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Speaker 3: Today we're talking about those Dark Horses.

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Speaker 4: If you missed the episode, by the way, you can

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Speaker 4: just go back and have listen to it. It was

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Speaker 4: one week ago. It was a great conversation all around

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Speaker 4: Todd's journey from being a high school drop out to

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Speaker 4: Harvard professor and just amazing stuff. Thanks again for joining us, Todd, Thanks.

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Speaker 2: For having me. I'm really excited.

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Speaker 3: There was a quote Todd. That jumped out at me

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Speaker 3: because we've seen it personally in our own lives with

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Speaker 3: our children. You say that a twenty and sixteen Gallup

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Speaker 3: study found that while only twenty six percent of fifth

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Speaker 3: graders are disengaged from school, fifty five percent of the

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Speaker 3: eighth graders are disengaged, rising to sixty six percent of

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Speaker 3: our high school seniors. You know, and this concept that

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Speaker 3: while our peak for learning actually you know, kind of

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Speaker 3: starts in kindergarten, it actually starts diminishing at that point

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Speaker 3: as well, because we go into this standardized system.

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Speaker 2: It's all downhill from there.

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Speaker 3: That's so depressing, and we've seen it with our children.

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Speaker 3: One of I was actually our eldest daughter. She was

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Speaker 3: she was in first grade, and she had been reading

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Speaker 3: since she was four US. So she was an avid reader,

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Speaker 3: loved reading. Her comprehension was a little bit low, and

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Speaker 3: so she was coming home with these books that says,

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Speaker 3: I am Sam, Sam, I am you know, three words

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Speaker 3: to a page, and she was getting so frustrated and

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Speaker 3: angry and her teacher. I would say to her teacher,

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Speaker 3: she's reading books that you know, have got three and

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Speaker 3: four lines on a page. Can you not send her

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Speaker 3: home something that's more appropriate. And her response to me

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Speaker 3: was when I asked, you know, her the questions about

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Speaker 3: what she's reading, she can't give me an answer. Even

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Speaker 3: at that stage, I recognized that my child had a

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Speaker 3: little bit of kick back there because she was like,

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Speaker 3: I've just read it to you, you know, why do

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Speaker 3: I have to tell you that Sam is you know,

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Speaker 3: a cat or whatever? Because I can see it on

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Speaker 3: the page. Wasn't until she actually went to the next

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Speaker 3: grade that her teacher came to me and she said, Kylie,

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Speaker 3: I've recognized that Chanelle has a massive aptitude for reading.

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Speaker 3: She is doing amazing, but her comprehension.

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Speaker 5: Is a little bit low.

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Speaker 3: So the way we're going to kind of deal with

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Speaker 3: this is I'm going to send two books home with

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Speaker 3: her each night. One book is going to you know,

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Speaker 3: help her with the reading level that she's at, and

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Speaker 3: the other one you're going to read a little bit differently.

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Speaker 3: We want to kind of work on her comprehensions, so

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Speaker 3: it's not testing her reading skills so much, but we're

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Speaker 3: going to give her information books that she's interested in

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Speaker 3: that we can help to just you know, kind of

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Speaker 3: draw out that comprehension from her, and that was such

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Speaker 3: a lifeline for us at that point.

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Speaker 2: That's amazing. That's I mean, you think about, like whether

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Speaker 2: it's education or the workplace. It is one of the

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Speaker 2: most drop dead simple insights from research that the more

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Speaker 2: engaged a person is, the better they learn, the more

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Speaker 2: productive they are, more creative they are, right, Like, that's

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Speaker 2: a very simple insight, and yet like these basic things

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Speaker 2: like this where like, fortunately, you've got another human being

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Speaker 2: who's caring about your kid and trying to understand them

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Speaker 2: and meet them where they're at. But the difference between

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Speaker 2: her experience there and if she doesn't have that experience, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: you could imagine where that goes, where every time she's

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Speaker 2: interacting it's something that's terribly boring, it's not at all

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Speaker 2: relevant to her, and so she starts to disengage, and

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Speaker 2: then it suddenly becomes I'm not very good at reading,

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Speaker 2: becomes I'm not very good at school, becomes I don't

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Speaker 2: like school at all, right, and so like this kind

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Speaker 2: of disengagement I think is unbelievably sad, particularly in societies

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Speaker 2: in democracies where we feel like it's okay to compel

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Speaker 2: parents to turn their kid over to a school, right

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Speaker 2: that we have some obligation to make that compulsion worth it.

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Speaker 4: I hear that story and I think to myself about

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Speaker 4: a mom who contacted me just recently, and she sounded

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Speaker 4: so desperate, Todd. She said, I've got a fourteen year

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Speaker 4: old son. He's been diagnosed with ADHD. He has really

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Speaker 4: significant anxiety. He is just struggling so much, doesn't have

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Speaker 4: any friends, and he's refusing to go to school. He

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Speaker 4: just hates being at school and we cannot get him

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Speaker 4: out the door anymore. It's gotten awful. And what she

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Speaker 4: was really saying is he doesn't fit. There's this standardized

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Speaker 4: mold and for whatever reason, our son doesn't quite fit.

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Speaker 4: And she said to me, what can we do? What

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Speaker 4: are we supposed to do? Like do we force him

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Speaker 4: to go to school? He won't see a psychologist. We're

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Speaker 4: really stark. And as I hear, Kylie shared that statistic

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Speaker 4: from Gallop that you've cited about engagement dropping, and this

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Speaker 4: is not new. We've known this for decades that kids

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Speaker 4: switch off more and more and more as they go

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Speaker 4: through their school experience. The standardized, cookie cutter approach to

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Speaker 4: education doesn't serve them. Well, And then I think about

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Speaker 4: this kid here who's got some psychological challenges and some

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Speaker 4: social issues.

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Speaker 1: He just doesn't want to be there.

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Speaker 4: What do you say to parents when they come to

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Speaker 4: you with those kinds of challenges.

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Speaker 2: So you know, first of all, the two of you

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Speaker 2: are the parenting experts. You know, I pretend to be

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Speaker 2: once in a while, but I have two kids. Luckily

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Speaker 2: you know they're a little older now. But for me,

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Speaker 2: like I think the most important thing, and I think

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Speaker 2: all of us as parents can lose sight of what

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Speaker 2: matters most right, Like, yes, look, in a perfect world,

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Speaker 2: it's important that they do well in school. But let's

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Speaker 2: just be clear, I think every parent on the planet

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Speaker 2: would trade that in to make sure the kid is happy,

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Speaker 2: to make sure they are like a good person, right,

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Speaker 2: that they are a productive citizen, you know what I mean. Like,

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Speaker 2: so you you don't have to choose. But sometimes we

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Speaker 2: get our priorities out of whack that we think somehow

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Speaker 2: take this kid, because I can tell you I had

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Speaker 2: a heck of a time in school. I was bullied,

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Speaker 2: I didn't have a lot of friends early on. And

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Speaker 2: I'm telling you, the only people that think academics matter

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Speaker 2: more than friends are people that have friends? Right, and

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Speaker 2: so like, could you imagine what it's like to wake

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Speaker 2: up every day? Like I know from the research, So

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Speaker 2: kids that struggle and kids that are bullied, they wake

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Speaker 2: up their cortisol levels, stress hormone spikes, like they're experiencing

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Speaker 2: trauma even in the anticipation of going to school, Like

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Speaker 2: how do you learn like that?

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Speaker 4: It's the Happy Families Podcast. We'll continue our discussion with

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Speaker 4: Todd Rose in just a moment.

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Speaker 5: Our Screens Creating Tension at Home tweens, Teens and Screens

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Speaker 5: is a webinar to guide families to healthy, safe superscreen

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Speaker 5: solutions by today at happy families dot com, dot au

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Speaker 5: slash shop.

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Speaker 3: It's the Happy Families Podcast, and today we're speaking to

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Speaker 3: Harvard professor Todd Rose, author of best selling books A

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Speaker 3: Dark Horse and The End of Average.

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Speaker 4: Do you think that it's right that we've decided that

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Speaker 4: every student is supposed to go through thirteen years of

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Speaker 4: school and then go to university.

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Speaker 2: I think that school should go Like, let's be clear

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Speaker 2: about what it is we're trying to accomplish, right, the

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Speaker 2: amount of time you should be in school should be

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Speaker 2: Like listen, we are taking part of their life away

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Speaker 2: from them, right, Like you know, John Dewey used to

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Speaker 2: talk about the purpose of school was not to prepare

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Speaker 2: them for some other life, right, this is their life. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: they are living right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I say this all the time.

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Speaker 4: It's not about getting your kids through school or getting

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Speaker 4: your kids through UNI.

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Speaker 1: It's about getting school or UNI through them.

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Speaker 4: It's about It's about the learning, It's not about the outcome.

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Speaker 2: Right. And the thing is is like they are learning

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Speaker 2: to be look, learning to be a good person, learning

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Speaker 2: to be a citizen in a democracy. What does that mean? Right?

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Speaker 2: What are my responsibilities? You know, what are my rights?

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Speaker 5: Like?

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Speaker 2: And yes, figuring out who you are and what you

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Speaker 2: have to contribute and developing the knowledge and skills to

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Speaker 2: be able to do that. Right. This is not when

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Speaker 2: I think about more personalized environments. I don't mean selfishness,

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Speaker 2: I don't mean like coddling. I mean we are going

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Speaker 2: to work really hard to help you be the best

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Speaker 2: version of yourself. And the idea is that a society

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Speaker 2: full of people who are able to strive towards fulfilling

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Speaker 2: life like that makes us all better off.

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Speaker 3: So how do you deal with your child wanting to

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Speaker 3: make a life choice that doesn't seem like the right

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Speaker 3: idea at the time.

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Speaker 2: Some things are just bad choices, right, Let's be clear, right,

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Speaker 2: not every path is a fulfilling path. But one of

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Speaker 2: the things that especially with older kids, and I think

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Speaker 2: for younger kids, I have different advice about some of

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Speaker 2: the things that I think parents.

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Speaker 1: Should focus on.

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Speaker 2: But for older kids, like in a SATEI system, whatever

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Speaker 2: it is, at least we know the mile markers, right,

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Speaker 2: We kind of know how to tell whether we're making progress.

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Speaker 2: When you choose to pursue a path of fulfillment, it's

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Speaker 2: a unique path, so it's not as easy to know

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Speaker 2: am I am I on path? Or am I just

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Speaker 2: like literally a dead end? So this is the thing

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Speaker 2: that I think, like one of the things that I

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Speaker 2: would always ask is is your child taking responsibility for

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Speaker 2: the choices? Right? So, like if you have a kid

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Speaker 2: who wants to be an actress and they're like, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to Hollywood, right, and it's like they're living with

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Speaker 2: six roommates, they're waiting tables to pay the bills and

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Speaker 2: they're doing it. That's not bad. That is a really

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Speaker 2: good sign. It may not turn out that she's going

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Speaker 2: to be a celebrity actress. But it is a good path, right.

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Speaker 2: But if she's like, hey, listen, I expect you to

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Speaker 2: pay for my rent and oh I need a car,

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Speaker 2: and you're not taking like, without fail, not a single

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Speaker 2: successful dark Horse that we studied ever shirk responsibility, right,

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Speaker 2: Because if it is a path of meaning and fulfillment,

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Speaker 2: you will take responsibility. You will do what it takes. Right.

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Speaker 2: So if you see your kid being willing to lean

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Speaker 2: into it and on the responsibility, man, lean into it

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Speaker 2: with them because it may not be their long term

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Speaker 2: life outcome, but it will be a great learning experience

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Speaker 2: and you never know what comes next.

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Speaker 4: The book is called dark Horse. The author is Todd Rose.

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Speaker 4: Todd loving this conversation. It's so grateful for your generosity

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Speaker 4: and sharing these ideas. The take home message that I'm

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Speaker 4: hearing is the standardized path that we put our kids

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Speaker 4: on is not always going to be in the best interest.

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Speaker 4: In fact, most of the time it's probably not. But

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Speaker 4: if we can help them to find something that fulfills

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Speaker 4: them and let them lean into that, and if we

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Speaker 4: can support them in it without actually doing it for them,

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Speaker 4: then chances they'll make plain mistakes they'll be he cups

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Speaker 4: along the road, but they may end up finding that

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Speaker 4: thing that just lights them up.

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Speaker 2: Yep. And I say that the takeaway for me, and

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Speaker 2: this was in this sort of subtitle of the book,

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Speaker 2: is that we've got the relationship between fulfillment and excellence backwards, right.

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Speaker 2: We sort of think if you just pursue that excellence

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Speaker 2: as it's been defined for you, you'll be happy on

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Speaker 2: the back end. But we all know plenty of people

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Speaker 2: who are very good at what they do and absolutely miserable. Right,

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Speaker 2: So the important thing is, and what we learned from

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Speaker 2: all these stark horses is that they know certain things

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Speaker 2: that make the pursuit of fulfillment a reliable path to

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Speaker 2: excellence as well.

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Speaker 3: Well, I would love it, Todd if we could be

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Speaker 3: a little bit cheeky and get you back a one

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Speaker 3: more time, because I'd really like to unpack that for

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Speaker 3: the moms, for the moms and dads out there.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so there's an agenda here.

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Speaker 4: Caylee's thinking about doing something different now that he's in

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Speaker 4: the mid forties, and I think that there's actually a

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Speaker 4: bit of a personal agenda.

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Speaker 1: Maybe all right, let's do it.

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Speaker 2: Great.

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Speaker 4: I just love this Thanks so much great talking to

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Speaker 4: Todd Rose once again on the Happy Families Podcast and

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Speaker 4: looking forward to having him back on the show next week.

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Speaker 1: To wrap things up, Hey, if.

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Speaker 4: You've enjoyed the podcast, we would love it if you'd

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Speaker 4: go to Apple Podcasts and leave a rating and review

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Speaker 4: so that more people can find out about the podcast

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Speaker 4: make their family happier. The Happy Families Podcast is produced

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Speaker 4: by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media, and our executive producer

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Speaker 4: is Craig Bruce. If you'd like Mari and fo about

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Speaker 4: how to make your family flourish, particularly if you'd like

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Speaker 4: to have ongoing monthly support via our amazing Happy Families memberships,

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Speaker 4: all you've got to do is visit Happyfamilies dot com

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Speaker 4: dot au