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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just answers. Now,

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Speaker 2: it seems that the ways that we can get ourselves

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Speaker 2: in trouble on screens never ends, especially when it comes

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Speaker 2: to our children. Children screens and something called capping is

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Speaker 2: the conversation today before we go any further, and I

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Speaker 2: introduced my guest just to remind it that some of the

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Speaker 2: things that we'll be talking about today are for mature audiences.

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Speaker 2: With all of these things with online dangers, there is

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Speaker 2: the risk that some little is might be a little

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Speaker 2: bit too curious too soon. However, I don't think that's

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Speaker 2: a big deal when it comes to these conversations because

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Speaker 2: we need to be having them, so I'll leave it

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Speaker 2: to your discretion. Certainly, if the kids aren't listening to

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Speaker 2: this conversation, we do want you to have a conversation

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Speaker 2: with your kids about this conversation, because, like I said,

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Speaker 2: there's no end to the different ways that kids can

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Speaker 2: find themselves in trouble online. Joining me today as always

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Speaker 2: to talk about these topics is Detective Superintendent Jane Crossling

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Speaker 2: from the Australian Center to Counter Child Exploitation or ace AS.

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Speaker 2: It's better known. You can find out more about ACE

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Speaker 2: at ACCCE. That's a triple CE dot gov dot au. Jane,

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Speaker 2: thanks for being with me on the podcast today. What

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Speaker 2: is capping?

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Speaker 1: In its most simple terms, capping is where a young

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Speaker 1: person is tricked or coerced or threatened into creating sexual acts, including.

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Speaker 3: Video and images, and then.

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Speaker 1: Those sorts of images are then screenshoted or capped, hence

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Speaker 1: the name. And it could be that the young person

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Speaker 1: doesn't know that that's actually happened, so they think that

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Speaker 1: they're sharing material with somebody online that they have maybe

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Speaker 1: been tricked into thinking they're actually sharing with someone they

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Speaker 1: know or someone of a similar age. They don't realize

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Speaker 1: that that's all being screenshotted.

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Speaker 3: Then that material is.

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Speaker 1: Frequently shared with other people, and so in some instances,

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Speaker 1: the young person doesn't even know that they're actually a

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Speaker 1: victim of a few different types of crimes.

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Speaker 2: So I want to drill into how this works. You're

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Speaker 2: talking about kids thinking that they're talking to somebody that

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Speaker 2: they know, but it turns out to either not be

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Speaker 2: that personal or they've been deceived in some way. What's

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Speaker 2: going on here, Like, who's doing this to our children?

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Speaker 2: And why.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately, there are online offenders out there that have an

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Speaker 1: appetite for this type of material where they are doing

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Speaker 1: it because they have a sexual interest in children, and

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Speaker 1: in many instances they are actually connected to other offenders

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Speaker 1: who also like sharing this material. So once they're able

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Speaker 1: to receive this material, they're allowed to share with their

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Speaker 1: friends and they get coudos and must they're online network

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Speaker 1: for sharing this particular material.

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Speaker 2: So last time we talked, we spoke about the sextortion

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Speaker 2: or sexual exploitation of children. That is that there are

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Speaker 2: people working in call centers literally as paid employees overseas

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Speaker 2: who are pretending to be an attractive young female, for example,

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Speaker 2: and approaching a teenage boy and saying, hey, here's an

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Speaker 2: intimate picture of me, and will you send me one

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Speaker 2: of you now, Like they'll spend a little bit of

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Speaker 2: time developing the relationship over maybe five or ten minutes

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Speaker 2: or maybe five or ten days. Then they get that

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Speaker 2: image in front of the boy. The boy goes, oh

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Speaker 2: my goodness, that was astounding, and now I'm emotionally a

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Speaker 2: little bit hot, I guess you might say. And then

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Speaker 2: the request comes through from this quote unquote girl saying

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Speaker 2: now send me one. He does that, and then she says, actually,

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Speaker 2: I'm not who you think I am. Send me some

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Speaker 2: bitcoin otherwise I'm going to share this with your entire list.

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Speaker 2: It sounds to me like what you're describing as capping

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Speaker 2: is quite different. That is, this isn't done for financial gain.

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Speaker 2: This is actually done simply for personal satisfaction. I don't

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Speaker 2: like using that word in this context, but it sounds

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Speaker 2: like this is a thing that there are predators who

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Speaker 2: are literally trying to have children expose themselves online so

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Speaker 2: that they can get access to that content and then

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Speaker 2: share it within their dark web groups so that they

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Speaker 2: can become more powerful in those circles.

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Speaker 1: Correct or it's entirely for their own personal consumption as well,

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Speaker 1: because they, as I said, they do have a sexual

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Speaker 1: interest in children. So it can be stand alone offending,

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Speaker 1: it can be syndicated offending as well. We're seeing a

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Speaker 1: range of different offending play out, and it unfortunately is

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Speaker 1: a global network at times. And this is where the

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Speaker 1: power of this range center account a child the expectation

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Speaker 1: when it comes in because we've.

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Speaker 3: Got those connections with law enforcement.

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Speaker 1: So this is giving us a really strong sense of

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Speaker 1: how it's playing out.

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Speaker 3: Around the globe.

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Speaker 1: So what typically is happening is that children are being

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Speaker 1: actively targeted in a very similar way as you describe

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Speaker 1: to sexual extortion.

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Speaker 2: Jane, who's most likely to be affected here? Is there

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Speaker 2: a particular age group who is the target of these

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Speaker 2: I'm going to use the word predators. I don't know

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Speaker 2: that there's a better word for it.

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Speaker 1: So they are young people generally, and the ACE certainly

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Speaker 1: only focuses in on under ageens, but we are most

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Speaker 1: commonly seeing teenage children being affected by this.

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Speaker 2: Okay. Would it be reasonable to say, though, that there

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Speaker 2: are some bad actors out there who are very active

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Speaker 2: in children's games as well games for kids that are

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Speaker 2: under twelve.

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Speaker 1: That might be a way that they're initially friending the

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Speaker 1: children through in game chat functionality, but frequently they're taking

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Speaker 1: them out of that space so that they can actually

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Speaker 1: have direct message capability with them.

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Speaker 3: Frequently that's in an encrypted.

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Speaker 1: Environment, but then they need to get into a video

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Speaker 1: chat particular app. So that's where they're lured into whichever

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Speaker 1: particular video chat app that the offender chooses, and is

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Speaker 1: their preference.

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Speaker 2: Let me ask a really concrete question. I know it's

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Speaker 2: hard to give a simple answer to this question, but

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Speaker 2: how long do most offenders most predators take to develop

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Speaker 2: a relationship, make the requests, get the child, the teenager,

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Speaker 2: the young person off the platform that they're on, into

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Speaker 2: the encrypted chat or video service and obtain exploitative material.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately, it's getting shorter and shorter the amount of time

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Speaker 1: that it takes for these offenders. In you've gone by,

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Speaker 1: this type of offending would have taken quite some time

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Speaker 1: to convince a young person a to friend someone that

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Speaker 1: they don't know and be to actually then respond to

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Speaker 1: the sharing of sexualized images. So this is a huge

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Speaker 1: cause for concern for us. And it would appear that

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Speaker 1: some of those red flags are being ignored by the

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Speaker 1: young people or they're just not tuning into them. And

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Speaker 1: this is why we certainly need to appeal to parents

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Speaker 1: and carers because they play a critical role.

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Speaker 2: Can we please get really clear on what those red

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Speaker 2: flags are that are being ignored by the kids, because

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Speaker 2: obviously parents need to talk about this with their kids. Therefore,

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Speaker 2: they need to get the high lighter out and circle

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Speaker 2: where the red flags are and say, hang, this is

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Speaker 2: a line, like don't cross this line. This is not

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Speaker 2: safe behavior, this is not healthy behavior. What are the

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Speaker 2: red flags that parents want to be talking to their

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Speaker 2: kids about.

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Speaker 1: So the thing, the very key one that starts off

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Speaker 1: is that you are friended by someone you don't know.

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Speaker 1: So what a young person might call it random, or

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Speaker 1: maybe we're calling them randoms, but they're random, and much

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Speaker 1: like sexual extortion, the conversation can become sexualized, and that

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Speaker 1: can happen quite rapidly. They may or may not share

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Speaker 1: images of purporting to be themselves, but perhaps not, and

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Speaker 1: then they will al most definitely push them into a

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Speaker 1: different platform so that they can get onto the platform

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Speaker 1: of their choice, so that they can actually create the video.

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Speaker 2: I keep on thinking of Madonna King's advice in her

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Speaker 2: book Saving Our Kids, the book that she wrote about

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Speaker 2: Task Force Argos and the work that the ACE has

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Speaker 2: been doing over the years, and this advice that she

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Speaker 2: was just screaming through a megaphone throughout the book, and

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Speaker 2: that is, don't let your kids have their devices in

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Speaker 2: the bedroom or the bathroom. Just don't let them do that,

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Speaker 2: because if they're in a public area, they're not going

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Speaker 2: to take their gear off and send it to some

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Speaker 2: random on the internet. Whereas bathrooms and bedrooms this is

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Speaker 2: where the exploitation happens. You're nodding your head as I'm

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Speaker 2: looking at you on zoom. Can you just extrapolate on

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Speaker 2: that briefly.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, And this goes for children of all ages as well.

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Speaker 1: We particularly recommend supervision for younger children because unfortunately, we

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Speaker 1: have instances where young children themselves have been able to

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Speaker 1: take unclad images of themselves or video and themselves load

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Speaker 1: them into social media services, and sometimes the parents are

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Speaker 1: completely unaware.

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Speaker 2: So I want to ask you a question about that, Jane,

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Speaker 2: And it's a really hard question to ask in so

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Speaker 2: many ways, I don't want the answer, but I think

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Speaker 2: that every parent who's listening needs to know the answer

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Speaker 2: so they know that this is serious. What's the youngest

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Speaker 2: age of a child that you know who has been

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Speaker 2: involved in a capping incident.

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Speaker 1: I believe that there would be children as young as

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Speaker 1: ten from what I understand, but as I said, it's

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Speaker 1: predominantly the teenage years that we are most concerned about.

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Speaker 2: Okay, but I think that it's worth pausing on this

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Speaker 2: and just highlighting. So my youngest is nine, right, and

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Speaker 2: by be too long till she's ten. She's such a tiny,

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Speaker 2: tiny kid. And it's just I think it's that reminder

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Speaker 2: a lot of parents say, oh, my kids aren't doing this,

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Speaker 2: or they're not doing that, or they're safe because I've

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Speaker 2: had this conversation and I keep coming back to this

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Speaker 2: idea that they're just not safe for they're kids. It's

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Speaker 2: like when we were doing parental guidance together, Jane, and

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Speaker 2: we've got these kids that are accepting invitations from strangers

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Speaker 2: to disclose personal details, even though the parents are sitting

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Speaker 2: there saying, but we've had the conversation in terms of

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Speaker 2: keeping our kids safe. I don't think we can be

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Speaker 2: strong enough on this. Keep the phones out of the

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Speaker 2: bedroom bathroom, and recognize that kids as young as ten,

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Speaker 2: maybe even younger, are going to be approached and they

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Speaker 2: need to know how to respond. It just seems to

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Speaker 2: me like it's a massive parental responsibility. I want to

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Speaker 2: talk about the practical stuff from parents for just a sec,

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Speaker 2: but I have two questions that are really, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: raging inside of me. One of them is just what's

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Speaker 2: the law on this? I mean, it's obviously illegal, but

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Speaker 2: what are we really talking about from a lawful perspective here?

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Speaker 2: And is it the same Industrala as it is elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: So the laws very unfortunately state by state in Australia

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Speaker 1: and then also differ internationally as well, and the police

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Speaker 1: response also differentiates as well across state and territories in Australia.

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Speaker 1: So in relation to self generated content, what the ACE

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Speaker 1: is very strong on is that we generally don't want

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Speaker 1: to criminalize that behavior for a young person, and we

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Speaker 1: want to look at the circumstances in which self generated

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Speaker 1: material was actually created. So were they tricked, were they coerced?

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Speaker 1: Where they led to believe that they were sharing with

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Speaker 1: somebody that they knew or that they trusted. What happened

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Speaker 1: in relation to having that self generated material created? Then

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Speaker 1: for those matters to be investigated by police. If that

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Speaker 1: was just a standalone matter of self generated material, police

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Speaker 1: in each state and territory would need to take into

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Speaker 1: account what are the motivations of those involved? Was it mutual,

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Speaker 1: was it consensual? And was it just perhaps that the

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Speaker 1: young people were exploring what are essentially adult concepts but

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Speaker 1: something that we do see quite commonly in the teenage years.

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Speaker 1: So we do say that if there's been threats or

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Speaker 1: coercion or trickery involved in the generation of this self

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Speaker 1: created material, that a young person is essentially a victim

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Speaker 1: in that situation, and that a young person isn't actually

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Speaker 1: to blame for falling victim to that kind of online offender.

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Speaker 3: And we believe that in.

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Speaker 1: All circumstances, these matters are complex and they need to

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Speaker 1: be handled with sensitivity and care to ensure that the

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Speaker 1: young person who is actually not revictimized through the process.

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Speaker 1: So if it is a non aggravated circumstance, that there

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Speaker 1: is mutual consent that perhaps sharing got a little bit

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Speaker 1: out of hand, and that's how it came to law

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Speaker 1: enforcement attention. Then a police responsor around the country ideally

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Speaker 1: and typically focuses on.

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Speaker 3: Education and prevention.

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Speaker 1: But as soon as police get a sense that there's

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Speaker 1: more to it, that perhaps there's other elements here where

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Speaker 1: there's adults involved, and as I mentioned, there's threats and coercions,

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Speaker 1: that is where they'll actually look at this quite differently

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Speaker 1: and want to understand the circumstances. And that's exactly how

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Speaker 1: some of these capping and sometimes sexual extortion matters are uncovered.

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Speaker 2: Jane AI is becoming an increasingly relevant part of this

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Speaker 2: discussion in terms of explicit material being both sought for

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Speaker 2: and generated and even shared. Does that come into this

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Speaker 2: capping and sexual exploitation discussion at all.

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Speaker 1: There's a chance that when an offender approaches a young person,

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Speaker 1: they've actually used AI generated images in order to lure

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Speaker 1: that young person in. So it could be that it's

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Speaker 1: actually not a real person of any sort, and that

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Speaker 1: offenders will seek to hide behind an artificially created profile

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Speaker 1: picture that is presumably attractive for the person they're trying

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Speaker 1: to offend against. So yes, we would see AI utilized

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Speaker 1: in that particular way most definitely.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the world is changing in frightening ways. My last

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Speaker 2: question because our time is running out fast and parents

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Speaker 2: need solutions. This is the podcast for the time poor

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Speaker 2: parents who just wants answers. Now, now that we've discussed

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Speaker 2: capping and what it is, how do parents talk about

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Speaker 2: this with their children? What are your top couple of tips?

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Speaker 1: Okay, so we've got so much advice to offer in

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Speaker 1: this regard. We do not for a moment want parents

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Speaker 1: to think that they're helpless. We want them to be

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Speaker 1: able to feel that they're up for the challenge.

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Speaker 3: So we would.

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Speaker 1: Say, firstly, have an environment that is open and non judgmental.

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Speaker 1: And we've talked about having conversations, really open conversations, and

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Speaker 1: that they can't just be one off, they cannot be

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Speaker 1: set and forget. They need to be frequent and it

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Speaker 1: needs to adapt as we see these sorts of crimes

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Speaker 1: adapt as well.

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Speaker 3: So you as a.

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Speaker 1: Parent, you might find it quite nerve racking and uncomfortable,

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Speaker 1: but this is a better scenario than having to deal

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Speaker 1: with the worst case scenario. At the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: it's important to have these conversations, and we stress to

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Speaker 1: parents that they need to avoid judgmental language. They need

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Speaker 1: to avoid making judge themselves about you. How could you

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Speaker 1: do this? How could you be so silly? We want

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Speaker 1: to ask that they push past all of that and

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Speaker 1: get to the heart of the problem, because we know

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Speaker 1: that for young people's shame can be a significant barrier

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Speaker 1: in order to come forward and that could actually make

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Speaker 1: them even more vulnerable to ongoing exploitation. So we want

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Speaker 1: them to speak up. We want them to feel comfortable

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Speaker 1: enough to be able to share what's happening in their lives,

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Speaker 1: and offenders will use isolation tactics and shaming and that

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Speaker 1: will reports coming forward. So parents need to find a

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Speaker 1: way to push past that. Parents also have a role

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Speaker 1: more broadly to teach kids critical thinking about how they

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Speaker 1: interact with people online and that simple message about not

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Speaker 1: everybody is who they say they are online, and to

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Speaker 1: keep that thinking up at all times when they're operating online.

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Speaker 1: We have, you know, some major tips that we always

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Speaker 1: talk about for parents and cares. In addition to open conversations,

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Speaker 1: supervision is essential, particularly for younger users. It's important to

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Speaker 1: check your privacy settings to understand how much information a

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Speaker 1: young person's putting out there in the world, be approachable

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Speaker 1: if your child needs help, and then know how to report.

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Speaker 2: For more great advice on how to keep our families

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Speaker 2: safe online, especially our children, teenagers, all young people. Visit

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Speaker 2: the ACE website a triple C E, dot gov, dot AU.

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Speaker 2: All of those resources that Detective super Into Tendant Jane

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Speaker 2: Crossling has just mentioned are available there and they will

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Speaker 2: keep your family safe. It's an important conversation. It's too

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Speaker 2: important to not have it. Jane as always so grateful

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Speaker 2: for the work that you do and for the time

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Speaker 2: that you've spent explaining this to us to help us

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Speaker 2: to keep our families safe. On the happy Families podcast,

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Speaker 2: Thank you Detective Superintendent Jane Crossling from the Australian Center

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Speaker 2: toccount of a child exploitation. The Happy Family's podcast is

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Speaker 2: produced by Justin Rouland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is

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Speaker 2: our executive producer. Scary, isn't it like? It's just so

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Speaker 2: frightening that we live in a world where there are

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Speaker 2: people who have these motivations. Thank goodness we have people

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Speaker 2: like Jane and those who work with her to help out.

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Speaker 2: If you'd like more information about making your family safe,

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Speaker 2: like I said, visit the a's website or check out

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Speaker 2: what we have to offer to guide your family at

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Speaker 2: Happy Families dot com do AU.