1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: We had the Melbourne Cup yesterday and what some people 2 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: might not know is that the Northern Territory plays a 3 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: major role in regulation of Australia's biggest betting companies because 4 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,639 Speaker 1: they pay minimal tax in the NT. Now that's come 5 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: under the spotlight more recently due to a four Corners 6 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:19,599 Speaker 1: investigation which uncovered allegations of conflicts of interest and a 7 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: pro industry bias at the regulator, and evidence of lengthy delays. 8 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: That's led to several critics, including the Independent Member for Johnston, 9 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,520 Speaker 1: Justine Davis, calling for an independent inquiry into the Raising 10 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: and Wagering Commission, and Justine joins me on the line. 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: Good morning, Justine, Hey Katie, how are you going? Heah? 12 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: Really well, Now, Justine, what has been your main concern 13 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: with this body here and the allegations that have been raised. 14 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 2: I think there are several things that are really important 15 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 2: for us to look at. First of all, exactly as 16 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 2: you just said, the NT is the quasi national regulator 17 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 2: for online gambling, so that means that we're actually playing 18 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 2: a role that affects not just people in the Northern 19 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 2: Territory but across all of Australia. And the reason that 20 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 2: we're the national regulator. The reason that gambling companies choose 21 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 2: to come here is because we have the lowest taxes 22 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 2: and we have the weakest regulations. And what that means 23 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 2: is that people are getting harmed by gambling and they're 24 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 2: getting away from away with it because our act here 25 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 2: is too weak. It's a national problem and there's been 26 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 2: calls across Australia for national regulation of the gambling industry. 27 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 2: But here in the Northern Territory, while we wait for 28 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 2: the federal government to take some action on this, we 29 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 2: have a role and I would say a responsibility to 30 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 2: do something about it as well. 31 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: Dustine, what kind of complaints have been made and what 32 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: kind of issues I guess have been raised because for 33 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: some of us that maybe aren't gamblers, you know, we 34 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: might be thinking to ourselves, who does it need to change? 35 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: I mean, what kind of issues have come up? If 36 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: something's not broken, does it need to be fixed? 37 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 2: Yeah? I think if any one hasn't seen the Four 38 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 2: Corners Report, I'd recommend that you watch it because it 39 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 2: goes through exactly what you're saying in lots of detail. 40 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 2: And not only are people who who choose to gamble 41 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 2: harmed by the industry because they the industry works in 42 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 2: a way that it gambling is an addiction. I think 43 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 2: everyone knows that this is not about people having a flutter, 44 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 2: which is language that has been used, you know, all 45 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 2: over the place. That's a misrepresentation. This is about trying 46 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 2: to protect people who have an addiction to gambling and 47 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 2: it destroys their lives, and the gambling industry is set 48 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 2: up in a way to ensure that that addiction is fed, 49 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 2: that people continue to gamble even when they it's going 50 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 2: to do huge time to themselves and their family. And 51 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 2: sometimes also people having great losses who are actually not 52 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 2: even gamblers and they're not able to recoup the losses. 53 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 2: So there's lots of examples of that which you know, 54 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 2: we need to we need to address. 55 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: Justin from your perspective. The chair Alistairshields has told the 56 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: NT News that the Commissions strong enough to manage the industry. 57 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: Do you agree. 58 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 2: I don't think there's any evidence of that. I will 59 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 2: say that it was welcome. I welcomed hearing that they have. 60 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 2: Mister Shields said that the Commissioners have now voluntarily agreed 61 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 2: to stop accepting gifts, so for a long time here, 62 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 2: we've had a situation where the people who are regulating 63 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 2: an industry are also accepting gifts from that industry. So 64 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 2: that's a clear conflict. So the chair came out this 65 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 2: week and said that they have made a decision to 66 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 2: stop accepting gifts and to close their bedding accounts. That's welcome, 67 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 2: but it's certainly not enough. He also said that they're 68 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 2: not going to make the conflicts of interest register public. 69 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 2: We need to know if there are people who are 70 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 2: in charge of regulating an industry, we need to know 71 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 2: whether there are conflicts of interest and how they're being managed. 72 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 2: He also said, in terms of continuing conflicts, that it's 73 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 2: they're not going to accept gifts, but they can keep 74 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 2: owning race sources because there's appropriate oversight from the Thoroughbred racing, 75 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:16,359 Speaker 2: from Fibred Racing MT and the Racing Appeals Tribunal. But 76 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 2: he's the deputy chair of the Racing Appeal Tribute Racing 77 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 2: Appeals Tribunal, and so he's overseeing himself. And that's the 78 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 2: situation we often seen in the Northern Territory. You and 79 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 2: I have talked before about conflicts of Indians. We're a 80 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 2: small jurisdiction. We know that people are going to be 81 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 2: holding multiple roles, but we need to make sure if 82 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 2: that's the case, that it's managed really properly so the 83 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,679 Speaker 2: public can trust that the institutions that are there actually 84 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 2: to protect us are doing their job. 85 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: So justin what do you reckon needs to happen here? 86 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: Do you think that we're maybe in a situation where, 87 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: you know, where we actually have a national body overseeing things. 88 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: What do you reckon needs to happen? 89 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 2: I think think we absolutely need a national body and 90 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 2: I think that's been called for for a long time. 91 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 2: There's a review that's sitting with the Albanza government for 92 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,679 Speaker 2: them to respond to, which makes those recommendations really clearly. 93 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 2: So there is also some we need to be asking 94 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 2: the federal government what are they doing about this? But 95 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 2: while we're waiting, I think we can do things here 96 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 2: in the Northern Territory and that was what I asked 97 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 2: the Attorney General to refer our current Act to the 98 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 2: appropriate committee so it could be reviewed to make sure 99 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 2: that it fits for purpose. Her response to me was 100 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 2: to invite me to go to the racing with her, 101 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 2: and I just think that's really minimizing the experience and 102 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 2: the harm that people have as a result of gambling. 103 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 2: That's not taking this issue seriously. I mean, I think 104 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 2: here in the Northern Territory, if we're going to look 105 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 2: at the Act here, we need a proper independent commission. 106 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 2: We need a proper independent chaf We need to make 107 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 2: sure that fines are actually adequate. It needs to be 108 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 2: properly staffed. At the moment, it's very unclear how it's staffed, 109 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 2: who it's staffed by. We're told there's no full time 110 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 2: staff there. We need to have proper information on that. 111 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 2: We need to There was a change to the Act 112 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 2: last in twenty twenty four. We need to there's now 113 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 2: a two year time limit on complaints. If anyone who's 114 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 2: listening has had anyone affected by gambling, you know that 115 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 2: actually to address it can take a really long time. 116 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 2: It's a really terrible impact on people. Two years is 117 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 2: just not long enough. It means that many people are 118 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 2: actually excluded from being able to make a complaint when 119 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 2: they have been harmed by the industry. It should be 120 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 2: at least six years. I think there are lots of 121 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 2: really concrete things that we can do around the Act. 122 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 2: We should put a ceiling on gambling deposits per month 123 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 2: for young people. Many countries have done this. There's lots 124 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 2: of things that we could do. It's not about stopping 125 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 2: people gambling, it's about making sure that if people do 126 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 2: do that, they're protected. 127 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's real. It's like it's really one 128 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: of those issues that you may not realize it's an 129 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: issue and just how big an issue it is until 130 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: you know, maybe your family's impacted or a friend is impacted, 131 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: and then I suppose you see just how harmful it 132 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: can be if you know, if it's not done in 133 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: a responsible manner. 134 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 2: Exactly exactly, And that's why we have regulators. That's why 135 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 2: we have independent authorities to make sure that you know, 136 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 2: whatever whatever people are choosing to do, we have a 137 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 2: robust framework in place to protect them. And so we 138 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 2: need to have that framework, that legislation, that commission working 139 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 2: really well to make sure that that can happen. 140 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: Justin on another issue, we know that a Senate inquiry 141 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: into Youth Justice has been re established as I understand it, 142 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: do you know what the terms of reference are for 143 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: that inquiry or what exactly it's going to be looking at? 144 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think the inquiry is there was an 145 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 2: interant inquiry in twenty twenty four, so an inquiry in 146 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 2: twenty twenty four which put an report together and said 147 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 2: that they're needed to be further national consideration on those issues. 148 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 2: So what this current inquiry says is what this current 149 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 2: inquiry wants to look at is looking at whether children's 150 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 2: rights nationally. This is a national issue. This is not 151 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 2: just to do with the Northern Territory. Once again, looking 152 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 2: at whether children's rights are being infringed, how we're treating 153 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 2: children in the justice system in Australia, aligned with our 154 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 2: international obligations, looking at whether there should be national minimum 155 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 2: standards that can be enforced across all states and territories. 156 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 2: So we're all working in a way that's consistent and 157 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 2: that is protecting children, that looks at solutions that are 158 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 2: actually going to keep children and also our communities say 159 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 2: and also looks if the focus on over incarceration of 160 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 2: Aboriginal children, which here in the Northern Territory, as we know, 161 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 2: more than ninety percent of the children, sometimes one hundred 162 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 2: percent of the children who are locked up, but Aboriginal. 163 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: Justin I know the Northern Territory government is determined to 164 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:18,479 Speaker 1: continue with their strong mandates on crime. Would the findings 165 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: from that inquiry do you know if they'd be enforceable. 166 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 2: It's a great question. So I think the relationship between 167 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 2: the Northern Territory and the Commonwealth is one that there's 168 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 2: been quite a lot of discussion about over the path 169 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:36,719 Speaker 2: or over the past few decades. I think our relationship 170 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 2: with the Commonwealth, they have, well, almost eighty percent of 171 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 2: our money comes from the Commonwealth, and I think that's 172 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,079 Speaker 2: an important thing for people to know. We're funded almost 173 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 2: entirely by the Commonwealth government. Some of that funding is 174 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 2: tied to particular outcomes, so for example, closing the gap outcomes, 175 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 2: and if we're not meeting those outcomes and at the 176 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 2: moment we are going back in the majority of them, 177 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 2: then I think the Commonwealth has a role there. 178 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: There's as the government sort of juggles that though as well, 179 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: when you know, like when they feel as though they're 180 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: pushing a mandate that the majority voted for, but then 181 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: as you touched on the you know, the federal government saying, well, 182 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: hang on a second, we've got these you know, we've 183 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: got these other targets that we want you to meet. 184 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, I think that it's it's a challenge. I 185 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 2: think what the community voted for is to have a 186 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 2: safe community, and I think what we need to do, 187 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 2: as once again as you and I have talked about 188 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 2: lots of times before, is actually work out what's going 189 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 2: to make a safe community. You know, I don't think 190 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 2: we need to be soft on crime. I think we 191 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 2: need to be saff Sorry, we need to bet on 192 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 2: the causes of crime. I think we need to stop 193 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 2: sort of doing this ambulance at the bottom of cliff. 194 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 2: We know that, you know, eighty five percent of kids 195 00:10:57,520 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 2: who are locked up here end up back in prison. 196 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 2: That is not working. That's not working to stop youth offending. 197 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 2: It's not working to keep our communities safer. So and 198 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 2: there are many examples of things that things that do work. 199 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 2: So that's what we need to be focusing on. You know, 200 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 2: my backgrounds in justice, I've seen many things here in 201 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 2: the territory, in other places in Australia and in places 202 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 2: outside Australia that actually work long term to build safe 203 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:28,319 Speaker 2: communities and to protect our children. 204 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: Justin before I let you go really quick, one Senator 205 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: Lydia Thorpe has accused the Northern Territory Government of being 206 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: racist in the Senate yesterday. And I know that critics 207 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: do claim that the Northern Territory Government government, i should say, 208 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: is targeting, you know, a certain group of people, or 209 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: that some of their policies are What do you make 210 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: of her making that claim in the Senate. 211 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 2: I mean, I think we're all really afraid of language 212 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 2: around racism, and that includes in Parliament when it's talked about. 213 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 2: I've talked about systemic racism in parliament and what that 214 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 2: means is that when you've got a system that operates 215 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 2: and impacts differently on people from one background to another, 216 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 2: not because of anyone's intention, not because of you know, 217 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,839 Speaker 2: people wanting to go out and be you know, discriminatory 218 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 2: against one group, but because a system is set up 219 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 2: that impacts inequitably on one group of people. That's something 220 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 2: we need to address here in the Northern Territory. We 221 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 2: have the most imprisoned, the highest imprisonment rate of Indigenous 222 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 2: people in the world. We have, you know, as I said, 223 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 2: almost you know, sometimes one hundred percent of our young 224 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 2: people who are locked up are Aboriginal. Eighty percent of 225 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 2: people in the prison system are Aboriginal. Something is going 226 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 2: wrong there and we need to look at it. I 227 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 2: don't think we need to get caught up in language 228 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 2: which is really inflammatory and difficult for people to hear 229 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 2: what's actually underneath it. I think we should welcome saying hotual, 230 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 2: let's look at this whole picture. This is not something 231 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 2: that any of us can You know, well many people 232 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,199 Speaker 2: that I think I expect you don't think is acceptable. 233 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that we don't want a safe community. 234 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that we don't want to be tough 235 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 2: on crime, but it does mean we need to actually 236 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 2: look at what's happening here and address address the reasons 237 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 2: why it's happening and fix them up. 238 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:21,439 Speaker 1: Justine, we are going to have to leave it there. 239 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: Really appreciate your time as always, good to chat with you. 240 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 2: Thanks Katie, thank you you too. 241 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: That is Justine Davisse, the Independent member for Johnston