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Speaker 1: After years of consulting with some of the smartest people

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Speaker 1: in business and conducting countless interviews with incredible people for

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Speaker 1: how I work, one things become very clear. The very

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Speaker 1: best performers are absolutely prolific, and Matthew Dix is no exception.

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Speaker 1: Alongside his book story Worthy, which is already my favorite

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Speaker 1: book that I've ever read about storytelling, Matt's written six

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Speaker 1: best selling novels, two nonfiction books, a rock opera, and a.

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Speaker 2: Couple of musicals.

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Speaker 1: And that's not to mention the daily blog he's been

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Speaker 1: posting too since two thousand and five, and his magazine columns,

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Speaker 1: his various coaching roles, or his position as an elementary

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Speaker 1: school teacher. So when Matt explains how stories work and

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Speaker 1: why we tell them, he's done his homework. So what

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Speaker 1: has Matt learned about stories by publishing a mountain of

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Speaker 1: his own, not to mention performing a lot of them,

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Speaker 1: And how can it help you improve your own storytelling? Chops,

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Speaker 1: My name is doctor amanthe Imbert. I'm an organizational psychologist

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Speaker 1: and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, And this

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Speaker 1: is how I work, A show about how to help

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Speaker 1: you do your best work. Being a great storyteller involves

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Speaker 1: actually remembering lots of stories from your life. And I

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Speaker 1: wanted to know Matt's ritels for collecting and capturing stories

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Speaker 1: that happen in his life.

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Speaker 3: Well, there's a bunch of them. But I mean the

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Speaker 3: one that I sort of focus my life on is

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Speaker 3: my idea of homework for life, which is sort of

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Speaker 3: the idea that as we move through our day, things

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Speaker 3: happen to all of us, you know, regardless of who

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Speaker 3: you are, regardless of how boring or ordinary you may

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Speaker 3: feel who you are, things happen to us all the

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Speaker 3: time that are worth talking about, whether it's a five

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Speaker 3: minute story or a third already second anecdote, or sometimes

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Speaker 3: there's something you want to remember for yourself, a story

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Speaker 3: that you're going to tell yourself for the rest of

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Speaker 3: your life. And the problem is is we leave all

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Speaker 3: those memories behind like they're meaningless. You know, I always

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Speaker 3: play this terrible game I can play with you right now.

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Speaker 3: You take your age and you subtract twelve. You don't

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Speaker 3: have to tell me what the number is. But for me,

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Speaker 3: I'm fifty subtract twelve, I'm thirty eight. And then I

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Speaker 3: ask people tell me some stories from that year of

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Speaker 3: your life, and I watch them struggle to find, like

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Speaker 3: sometimes even a story from a year twelve years ago,

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Speaker 3: even though they went around the sun and many, many,

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Speaker 3: many things happen that year that we're worth holding on to,

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Speaker 3: but we just discard them, and then we say stupid

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Speaker 3: things like time flies and time does not fly. Because

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Speaker 3: if you've ever spent as much time in detention as

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Speaker 3: I have, or in meetings that you don't need to

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Speaker 3: be in that someone else feels you need to be there,

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Speaker 3: or I was jailed once in my life, like if

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Speaker 3: you sat in a jail cell, I can tell you

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Speaker 3: time does not fly. The only reason we feel it

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Speaker 3: fly is because we don't do anything to hold on

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Speaker 3: to the things that would mark that time. So homework

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Speaker 3: for life is the idea at the end of the day,

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Speaker 3: you just ask yourself what happened today that made today

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Speaker 3: different than the last day? Or really, the prompt I

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Speaker 3: always think is someone has kidnapped my family and they

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Speaker 3: won't give them back until I tell a story about

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Speaker 3: something that happened today, even if the story I ultimately

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Speaker 3: tell is meaningless and boring. I got to pick the

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Speaker 3: thing from my day that makes it special, and then

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Speaker 3: I write it down. I don't write the whole story

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Speaker 3: down because that's crazy. I just use an Excel spreadsheet.

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Speaker 3: There's a date column and then that B column. I

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Speaker 3: stretched across the screen, and it's on that screen that

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Speaker 3: I write my story. And my goal was one story

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Speaker 3: per month, one new story per month, out of all

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Speaker 3: the things I was collecting. But ultimately what happens is

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Speaker 3: I discover, and not just me, thousands of people all

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Speaker 3: over the world discover that our lives are filled with stories,

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Speaker 3: things worth talking about once we start noting them and

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Speaker 3: recording them and speaking about them to the world.

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Speaker 1: Do you have any other prompts that you use when

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Speaker 1: you're really struggling? Because I like sin Since reading story Worthy,

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Speaker 1: your absolutely brilliant book, best book I've read on storytelling,

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Speaker 1: I must say, which is why I was so excited

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Speaker 1: to have you on the show. I've started doing the

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Speaker 1: homework for life, and sometimes I don't know, I feel

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Speaker 1: that judgmental part of my brain kicking in and going,

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Speaker 1: that's not story worthy.

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Speaker 2: So what do I do about that? What do you

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Speaker 2: do about that?

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Speaker 3: Well, the first thing you do is you accept the

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Speaker 3: fact that not everything is going to be story worthy.

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Speaker 3: So someone once asked me, can you tell me what

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Speaker 3: percentage of the items that you write down end up

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Speaker 3: being something that you would speak from, you know, speak

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Speaker 3: about on a stage or even just to other people.

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Speaker 3: And it ends up being about ten percent. So ten

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Speaker 3: percent of the things I write down now I write

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Speaker 3: down probably an average of about five things a day,

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Speaker 3: which you can too once you start doing this, but

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Speaker 3: ten percent is worth speaking about at some point. So

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Speaker 3: no judgment. You have to let the judgment go. But

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Speaker 3: the other thing that I think people stake and this

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Speaker 3: is the mistake I made when I started doing it.

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Speaker 3: We're looking not for stories, but for moments of meaning

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Speaker 3: in our day. So that can be someone said something

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Speaker 3: to you that you thought was clever or hurtful or

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Speaker 3: funny or unforgettable, or it could just be a thought

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Speaker 3: you had. You know, there was a day when I

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Speaker 3: was driving down the road and it was the bluest

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Speaker 3: of blue skies that I had seen in a very

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Speaker 3: long time, and I thought to myself, it's really great

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Speaker 3: the sky is blue, because like I know, on some

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Speaker 3: planets it's like orange. You know, Thank goodness, we got blue.

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Speaker 3: So I was like, you know, fifty years old and

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Speaker 3: finally feeling grateful for the color of the sky that

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Speaker 3: made it into my homework for life. Absolutely not a

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Speaker 3: story I'm ever going to tell, you know, except I'm

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Speaker 3: going to always remember the road and the color of

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Speaker 3: the sky and that thought that passed through my mind.

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Speaker 3: So it can just be thoughts and dialogue that you hear,

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Speaker 3: and new ideas you have, and feelings you have, and

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Speaker 3: things you do. You know, things you touch, things you taste,

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Speaker 3: things you say yourself, and then those really profound moments

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Speaker 3: of realization which occasionally come around. You know, for me,

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Speaker 3: about ten percent of the time, I go, wow, that's

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Speaker 3: something that will be told as a story someday.

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Speaker 1: I think in my world when I'm thinking about stories,

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Speaker 1: I'm often thinking in the context of a meeting or

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Speaker 1: a presentation or some kind of scenario where I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to influence people towards an idea or a strategy, and.

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Speaker 2: So in my mind, I'll be like, I need.

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Speaker 1: A story that makes this point.

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Speaker 2: So I'm wondering in how you categorize your stories.

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Speaker 1: Do you tag things according to themes so that you

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Speaker 1: can find the right story for the right moment.

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Speaker 3: I don't tag them, like you say, but I think

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Speaker 3: it's just because I sort of have a familiarity with

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Speaker 3: what I'm telling. And you know, one of the things

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Speaker 3: I can really help people do is find ways that

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Speaker 3: story can be used to communicate ideas. I really am

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Speaker 3: excellent at hearing someone tell a story, and depending on

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Speaker 3: what they do for business, I can say, oh, well,

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Speaker 3: you could use it here in marketing, and you could

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Speaker 3: use it here in sales, and we could use it

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Speaker 3: here in human resources. And that is a leap that

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Speaker 3: a lot of people have a hard time making. I

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Speaker 3: always tell people, we're not looking for content matches. We're

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Speaker 3: not looking for like your life story to on a

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Speaker 3: content level match what you want to talk about in

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Speaker 3: the business. What we're looking for is matches of theme,

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Speaker 3: matches of message, you know, those kinds of things. And

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Speaker 3: the further a part those things can be, almost the

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Speaker 3: better it is. You know. It's when someone's telling you

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Speaker 3: a story and you're wondering, why is he telling me

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Speaker 3: this story. It's a good story and it's entertaining, but

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Speaker 3: what's the point. When they get to the end and

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Speaker 3: they show you what the point was and it was

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Speaker 3: something you never expected, and yet it's so clear now

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Speaker 3: at the end what they were trying to say. That

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Speaker 3: is a powerful snap. I call it, you know, I

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Speaker 3: call it speaking with adjacency, which is I'm going to

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Speaker 3: talk about the thing I want to talk about, but

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Speaker 3: I'm going to do it in an oblique way that

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Speaker 3: you're not going to see until the very end, and

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Speaker 3: when it lands, it lands powerfully. So we can't be

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Speaker 3: thinking about I'm trying to sell strawberries, so I need

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Speaker 3: to have a story about strawberries or fruit, right, we

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Speaker 3: need to have a different kind of story. So if

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Speaker 3: we're selling strawberries and they're so evocative of our youth

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Speaker 3: and the strawberries that we used to eat as kids,

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Speaker 3: then we want to have a story that contains youthfulness

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Speaker 3: and innocence and child like wonder and things like that.

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Speaker 3: So we don't have to talk about fruit at all,

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Speaker 3: but we can bring it back to fruit at the end.

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Speaker 1: And So when someone is sharing a story with you

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Speaker 1: and you're identifying all these different opportunities for that story,

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Speaker 1: what's the process that's going through your brain when you're

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Speaker 1: kind of analyzing the story content and thinking about it's

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Speaker 1: different opportunities for being applied.

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Speaker 3: I'm always asking myself what are they saying beyond the content? Like,

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Speaker 3: what's the you know, what is the overarching if we

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Speaker 3: remove all the content away, what were they really trying

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Speaker 3: to say? You know, fundamentally a story tends to be

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Speaker 3: about change over time, So what is the change over

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Speaker 3: time that they're trying to describe? You know, this is

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Speaker 3: a story I tell to my kids all the time

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Speaker 3: that I recently sort of explained this Well. When I

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Speaker 3: was in kindergarten, a boy named John Fox disappeared during

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Speaker 3: indoor recess. Like the recess ended, everyone came back to

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Speaker 3: their seats and John was not in his seat, and

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Speaker 3: you know, the teacher was like, well, maybe he's in

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Speaker 3: the other classroom, the other kindergarten classroom. So she went

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Speaker 3: next door. Missus Dubac could not find John. There, she

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Speaker 3: called the principal. Back then when you had to like

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Speaker 3: press a button and talk on an intercom, so everyone

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Speaker 3: heard the conversation. So, you know, I heard her going,

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Speaker 3: mister Hartnett, we can't seem to find John Fox. Maybe

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Speaker 3: you could make an announcement. They made an announcement in

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Speaker 3: a school. I could see the level of stress rising

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Speaker 3: as they couldn't find the I saw the custodian outside

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Speaker 3: sort of wandering around the playground looking for him, and

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Speaker 3: then we heard a scream, and it was a girl

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Speaker 3: named Kim who had opened the bathroom door to the

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Speaker 3: girl's bathroom and found John Fox in the girl's bathroom.

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Speaker 3: What he had done is he had gone into the

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Speaker 3: girl's bathroom by accident, realized he was in the girl's

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Speaker 3: bathroom and could not get himself out because he felt

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Speaker 3: foolish and he was afraid he was going to get

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Speaker 3: in trouble. So even though he could hear himself being

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Speaker 3: called on the intercom, he couldn't get out of the bathroom.

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Speaker 3: So I tell that story to a bunch of teachers recently,

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Speaker 3: and then I say to them, when children and especially

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Speaker 3: boys get angry and they shouted us, or they slam something,

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Speaker 3: or they put their head down or they charge out

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Speaker 3: of her room, what they've really done is put themselves

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Speaker 3: in the bathroom. They've put themselves in the bathroom, and

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Speaker 3: they trapped themselves there because to get out of it,

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Speaker 3: they can't walk back in and say sorry, because that's

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Speaker 3: a threat to their ego and they're just not old

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Speaker 3: enough to deal with that. And we can't win a

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Speaker 3: power struggle with them. We can't say like pick your

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Speaker 3: head up, to pick your head up and you're going

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Speaker 3: to listen to me right now, You're never gonna win.

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Speaker 3: So as teachers, we have to find ways to get

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Speaker 3: kids out of the bathroom after they put themselves in.

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Speaker 3: So I just recently had this boy. He got mad

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Speaker 3: at me. I said, close your laptop. He threw his

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Speaker 3: headphones down. He slammed his computer and he put his

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Speaker 3: head down, and I knew he was now stuck in

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Speaker 3: the bathroom, just like John Fox. And so I gave

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Speaker 3: him a little bit of time, and then I walked

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Speaker 3: over to him and I said, listen, I know I'm

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Speaker 3: really boring and I'm putting you asleep, but I need

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Speaker 3: you to pick up your head eventually because you can't

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Speaker 3: sleep in class. And then he looked up and he

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Speaker 3: smiled and he said, you are boring. And I was asleep,

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Speaker 3: and I said, I know, but I need you to

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Speaker 3: be awake now, and I walked on. I got him

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Speaker 3: out of the bathroom right So that is a story

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Speaker 3: now where teachers use that phrase, they say, oh I

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Speaker 3: got well, I got a kid in the bathroom right now.

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Speaker 3: I got to figure out way to get him out

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Speaker 3: of the bathroom. As I'm telling the John Fox story,

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Speaker 3: though they have no idea what I'm talking about, right, So,

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Speaker 3: what I'm always thinking about at the end of a

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Speaker 3: story is what was I really saying? And that John

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Speaker 3: Fox story I am saying. We get stuck in places

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Speaker 3: sometimes and we need help getting out right, So strip

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Speaker 3: away all the content and ask yourself what is the

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Speaker 3: story really about? And oftentimes once we strip the content away,

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Speaker 3: we can say it in a clear sort of feeling

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Speaker 3: or meaningful or insightful or realization kind of way. And

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Speaker 3: that's how those stories can be powerful for us.

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Speaker 1: Let's now break that down, like, what is your process

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Speaker 1: for crafting a story like the one that you just told.

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Speaker 1: Maybe let's start by firstly, how do you even know

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Speaker 1: if it's a story worth telling? If it's one of

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Speaker 1: those ten percents?

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Speaker 3: Well, a story in the end is about change over time.

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Speaker 3: The problem people have is they think that stories are

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Speaker 3: reports on their life. You know, in the worst version

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Speaker 3: of a story, someone's going to tell you what happened

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Speaker 3: to them, but they're just going to be reporting on

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Speaker 3: the events chronologically, rather than sort of crafting any meaning.

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Speaker 3: So when I'm looking at that ten percent, what I'm

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Speaker 3: looking for is moments in my life where I fundamentally

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Speaker 3: changed in some way. You know, those changes are either

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Speaker 3: transformational meaning I used to be one kind of person

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Speaker 3: and now I'm another, or more often realizations I used

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Speaker 3: to think something about myself or the world, or my

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Speaker 3: wife or kids, or the planet, and then some stuff

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Speaker 3: happened and now I think differently. And you don't have

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Speaker 3: to think very differently. It can be a very small change.

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Speaker 3: Small changes are beautiful. People believe in small change, and

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Speaker 3: so that's what a story is. So when I'm looking

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Speaker 3: for a story to tell, I'm always starting at the

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Speaker 3: end because I'm looking for these moments where we suddenly shift,

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Speaker 3: where we feel our heart or our mind open, the

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Speaker 3: hair on the back of your neck stands up. You

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Speaker 3: just get that feeling of Wow, I think differently than

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Speaker 3: I did a moment ago. Those are the stories that

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Speaker 3: mean something to people. And all you have to do

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Speaker 3: is watch a movie, watch a television show, go to

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Speaker 3: a play. All the great stories of the world, all

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Speaker 3: the stories really of the world, are about change over time,

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Speaker 3: even the stupid movies. Ultimately, we're starting with a character

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Speaker 3: who has some flaw or some need or some problem,

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Speaker 3: and by the end that flaw, need, or problem will

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Speaker 3: be solved to some degree. Maybe not all the way,

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Speaker 3: but you know, you can watch a movie or read

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Speaker 3: a book and within the first fifteen minutes you can

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Speaker 3: tell what the end is going to be, not with specificity,

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Speaker 3: but you can look at it and go, oh, this

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Speaker 3: is a guy. He's divorced and he's not getting along

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Speaker 3: with his kids, and he hasn't figured that relationship out yet,

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Speaker 3: and at the end of the movie he's going to

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Speaker 3: have that relationship a little more figured out. Right. We

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Speaker 3: just know it's very it's instantaneous if we really put

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Speaker 3: some thought into it. But oftentimes we're lost in the story,

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Speaker 3: which is a beautiful thing.

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Speaker 1: Too, which probably is a good segue into how do

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Speaker 1: you think about opening a story?

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Speaker 3: So once we find the end of that story, the

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Speaker 3: thing we're trying to say, right, the beginning of the

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Speaker 3: story is ultimately going to be the opposite of the end.

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Speaker 3: That's how we create that change over time, you know.

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Speaker 3: So you know, if at the end of my story,

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Speaker 3: I suddenly look at my future wife for the first

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Speaker 3: time and realize I'm in love the beginning of my

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Speaker 3: story is going to be I am not in love, right,

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Speaker 3: That's the arc of every romantic comedy. Two characters don't

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Speaker 3: like each other in the beginning of the story, and

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Speaker 3: in the end they fall in love. So once you

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Speaker 3: find the moment where suddenly you feel different or see

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Speaker 3: the world differently, you simply ask yourself, when was a

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Speaker 3: moment in the past when I didn't see the world

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Speaker 3: differently or didn't feel differently, And that's the place to begin. Now. Also,

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Speaker 3: start as close to the end as possible. That's a

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Speaker 3: really important thing too, because we don't want stories to

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Speaker 3: go on and on. The shortest version of every story

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Speaker 3: is the best version of every story. So when we

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Speaker 3: start closer to the end, the stories get shorter and

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Speaker 3: we sort of compact all of that humor, drama, suspense,

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Speaker 3: and surprise into a smaller space, and that just makes

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Speaker 3: stories feel more alive. So we want to do that

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Speaker 3: as well. That's not my lesson. That's Kurt Vonnegut who

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Speaker 3: says start stories as close to the end as possible,

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Speaker 3: and I believe it fundamentally.

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Speaker 1: When you're mapping out a story, a story that you're

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Speaker 1: going to tell, and you're looking at it and going mmmm,

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Speaker 1: this bit feels like I could lose them.

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Speaker 2: How do you deliberately increase the stakes?

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Speaker 3: Well, there's a few ways, the cheating way, or the

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Speaker 3: easiest ways, just to be funny. Sometimes there's something in

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Speaker 3: a story and it's just fundamentally boring, but I need

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Speaker 3: to say it. I need to explain to people how

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Speaker 3: this thing works, you know, or how this person spoke

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Speaker 3: to me, and it's not that interesting, So I can

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Speaker 3: find a way to raise the stakes, which really is

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Speaker 3: to say, I'm going to plant a steak in this moment.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to hold something back and then I'll finally

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Speaker 3: plant it in the boring place. But the easiest way

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Speaker 3: is just to make it funny. And if you're funny,

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Speaker 3: that's a simple cheat to get through a boring part.

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Speaker 3: You can't do it all the time, though I see

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Speaker 3: storytellers try to do it all the time. You know, well,

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Speaker 3: this story isn't very good, but I'm just gonna make

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Speaker 3: it funny, right And you know, as I've done stand

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Speaker 3: up comedy too, and that's what I do, and stand

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Speaker 3: up which is better be funny all the time. But

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Speaker 3: when I'm listening to a story, I have no desire

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Speaker 3: to laugh all the way through. I really want to

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Speaker 3: feel more connected, and you know, I want to feel

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Speaker 3: like I've gone through an emotional journey with that storyteller.

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Speaker 3: So if you're just trying to be funny the whole

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Speaker 3: way through, we're going to kind of see through that

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Speaker 3: and it's going to be I always think of it

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Speaker 3: as popcorn, like it's lovely, but we never remember it.

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Speaker 3: You can't remember like you don't remember popcorn. It goes

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Speaker 3: in and that's the end of it. You know. I

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Speaker 3: like stories where when I'm done speaking or when I'm

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Speaker 3: done hearing the story, I sort of can't let it go.

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Speaker 3: It's like stuck in me. And you know, I want

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Speaker 3: people to hear me tell a story about John Fox

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Speaker 3: in the girl's bathroom, and the next time they walk

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Speaker 3: by a girl's bathroom door, they go, ah, right, that

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Speaker 3: kid that was stuck in the girl's bathroom. Right, That's

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Speaker 3: what I'm looking for. And you don't get that if

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Speaker 3: you make people laugh the whole time.

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Speaker 2: What is some other ways that you use to up

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Speaker 2: the stikes?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, especially in business, but also in storytelling world,

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Speaker 3: you know where storytellers operate so often the instinct I

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Speaker 3: think it's fear really is to present all the good

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Speaker 3: stuff right off the bat. You know, I think it

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Speaker 3: tends to come from people who find a hard time

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Speaker 3: finding space to speak, and quite frankly, I think it's

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Speaker 3: something I don't encounter as often as other people because

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Speaker 3: I'm a white, straight American man who has no physical

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Speaker 3: disabilities or mental illness. So when I walk into a room,

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Speaker 3: I just assume everyone wants to listen to me because

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Speaker 3: of who I am. And you know, I know that

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Speaker 3: if you're a woman, for example, there's a lot of

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Speaker 3: places where you have to fight to be heard. Or

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Speaker 3: if you're a you know, if you're a person of color,

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Speaker 3: or you're an immigrant, or you're English, isn't as excellent

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Speaker 3: as you wish it was, or you have a clear

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Speaker 3: physical disability. These are people who have to fight for space.

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Speaker 3: And so I think what happens in those cases and

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Speaker 3: for all storytellers, is we tend to think I got

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Speaker 3: to throw all the good stuff in the beginning so

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Speaker 3: that people will pay attention to me. But the problem

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Speaker 3: with that is if you give us all the good

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Speaker 3: stuff in the first minute, there's nothing left to offer

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Speaker 3: us as we go on. So what I always tell

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Speaker 3: storytellers to do is to sort of take an inventory

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Speaker 3: of the stakes of your story. Where are all the

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Speaker 3: problems that you are facing? And some of them are

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Speaker 3: going to be chronological, like I'm not going to face

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Speaker 3: the mean guy until I get to the store where

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Speaker 3: I meet the main guy. Fine, but your inability to

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Speaker 3: deal with mean people, like your avoidance of conflict, Like

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Speaker 3: where are we going to plant that idea so that

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Speaker 3: when you meet the main guy in the store, we

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Speaker 3: feel it and we don't have to put it all

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Speaker 3: up front. And so often people plow it all into

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Speaker 3: the beginning in hopes of holding the audience's attention. What

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Speaker 3: I teach people to do is to meter it out,

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Speaker 3: find places where we can increase the stakes. And the

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Speaker 3: same thing in business. You know, I was working with

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Speaker 3: a biotech firm recently and they were showing me their

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Speaker 3: marketing plan and they were sort of outlining all the

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Speaker 3: problems that customers have and why their products were the

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Speaker 3: ideal solution to these problems. And they threw every single

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Speaker 3: problem in the first two slow and I said, well,

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Speaker 3: that's really what you've done, is you've loaded all the

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Speaker 3: stakes into the first two sides, which is frankly not

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Speaker 3: very entertaining, and you've left yourself nowhere to go, and

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Speaker 3: the marketing the VP of marketing look down and she

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Speaker 3: goes we stakesload all the time. I think that is

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Speaker 3: a problem. Like it dawned on her that her first

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Speaker 3: two slides were sort of like enormous DeBie downers. And

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Speaker 3: also she didn't provide her team with any other moment

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Speaker 3: to raise the stakes in some way. So if we

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Speaker 3: avoid that and we're just careful with the way we're

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Speaker 3: going to place our stakes, that's going to help us

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Speaker 3: a lot.

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Speaker 1: We will be back soon with Matt explaining when it's

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Speaker 1: okay to lie when you're telling a story. Oh and

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Speaker 1: Matt also coaches me through putting together a story I'd

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Speaker 1: been trying to construct.

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Speaker 2: If you're looking.

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Speaker 1: For more tips to improve the way that you work,

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00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,040
Speaker 1: I write a short fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool

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00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,480
Speaker 1: things that I've done discovered that helped me work better,

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00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:05,399
Speaker 1: ranging from software and gadgets that I'm loving three to

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00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,720
Speaker 1: interesting research findings. You can sign up for that at

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00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:13,760
Speaker 1: Howiwork dot code. That's how I Work dot co. One

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Speaker 1: of the chapters that surprised me in story Worthy was

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Speaker 1: about when it's okay to lie when you tell a story,

436
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Speaker 1: because I think prior to reading that in your book,

437
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Speaker 1: I just assumed that I had to tell the truth

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Speaker 1: and that I couldn't fabricate anything. I couldn't you know,

439
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,400
Speaker 1: condense or expand time for example. But can you talk

440
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:39,359
Speaker 1: about where I guess, you know, stretching or slightly altering

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Speaker 1: the truth is actually in the audience's best interest.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I'll say that we never add anything to

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Speaker 3: a story that didn't actually happen, right, that's fiction, and

444
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,760
Speaker 3: I write novels. I love writing fiction, but that's why

445
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,200
Speaker 3: I write fiction. It sticks in my books. So when

446
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,760
Speaker 3: storytellers lie, what we're really doing is we're doing in

447
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,919
Speaker 3: service of the audience. So that means we're often leaving

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00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,919
Speaker 3: things out that don't serve the story. Most commonly that

449
00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:07,639
Speaker 3: is a person in your story that doesn't do anything

450
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:09,920
Speaker 3: but happen to be there at the moment. So many

451
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Speaker 3: of my friends, when they hear a story, they'll say like,

452
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Speaker 3: I was there, you didn't say me, And I say, well,

453
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Speaker 3: you didn't do anything right. And the reason I take

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Speaker 3: them out is because I don't want the audience to

455
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,760
Speaker 3: have to keep track of a character who will ultimately

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Speaker 3: be meaningless to the story. Audiences only have so much bandwidth, right,

457
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Speaker 3: Each person can only process so much information at a time.

458
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 3: So if I have a Rando wandering around in my story,

459
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:34,879
Speaker 3: part of the brain for the audience goes, well, what

460
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 3: about that guy in the back seat? Right? I don't

461
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 3: want them wondering about the guy in the back seat.

462
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 3: Or I don't want them worrying about you know, the

463
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Speaker 3: other girl that came to the party with us, where'd

464
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Speaker 3: she go? Right? Well, she's not actually in the story.

465
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Speaker 3: She doesn't do anything. She's just present. So we remove

466
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 3: things that are distractions that suck the bandwidth away from

467
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,359
Speaker 3: our audiences, and then we can do simple things like

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00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,439
Speaker 3: condensed time for the sake of the audience. You know,

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Speaker 3: I tell a story about riding my bike off the

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Speaker 3: barn roof to get my mother's attention, And the truth

471
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 3: of it is, my sister and I get the bike

472
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 3: up on the roof on Saturday, but I don't ride

473
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 3: it off until Sunday when my mom comes home. And

474
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 3: so when my sister hears the story, she says, you

475
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,160
Speaker 3: screwed up that story, like you put it all on

476
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Speaker 3: one day, you know, And she said it took I said,

477
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 3: I know, Kelly, I know. We put it up on

478
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,919
Speaker 3: Saturday and then took it down on Sunday. But nobody

479
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:25,399
Speaker 3: needs to hear. We got the bike up on the

480
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 3: roof and then I ate dinner, and then I went

481
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,119
Speaker 3: to bed, and then I woke up the next morning.

482
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:30,680
Speaker 3: Then I went back on the roof and wrote it off.

483
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 3: Nobody wants that. So we can condense space. We can

484
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:38,199
Speaker 3: condense time only when it serves the audience, when the

485
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 3: audience will process that story and appreciate the story in

486
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 3: a more meaningful way. So I'm never trying to deceive

487
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 3: the audience. I'm never exaggerating unless I'm exaggerating for humor,

488
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 3: unless the audience knows I'm exaggerating. I'm never ever adding

489
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Speaker 3: anything in that didn't really happen. But just making those

490
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Speaker 3: choices about what to leave out and what to make

491
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 3: smaller and what to you know, push together can really

492
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:03,399
Speaker 3: be helpful in a story.

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Speaker 1: How do you go about eliciting emotion from an audience,

494
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Speaker 1: Because I'm imagining that in order for a story to

495
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 1: stick in someone's mind long after the event, it needs

496
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,880
Speaker 1: to move them in some way. How do you do that?

497
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Speaker 3: I guess there's a few ways. You know, two ways

498
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Speaker 3: that are very easier. They're not easy, actually, but two

499
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Speaker 3: ways that are common. Will say. One is, as I'm

500
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Speaker 3: crafting a story, as I'm planning on it, I always

501
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 3: establish what I call goals, which is to say, how

502
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Speaker 3: do I want my audience to feel at every moment

503
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 3: in the story, And that is almost always how I

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Speaker 3: also felt at that moment in the story. I want

505
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 3: my story my audience to sort of be along with me.

506
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Speaker 3: There are times when I'm telling a story where I'm

507
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 3: a fool and I'm doing something stupid, and I don't

508
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:51,719
Speaker 3: mind the audience sort of being ahead of me and

509
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 3: recognizing my stupidity, but that is rare. Usually, when I'm sad,

510
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,160
Speaker 3: I want the audience to feel sad, and when I'm happy,

511
00:24:58,200 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 3: I want the audience to feel happy, and everything in between.

512
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Speaker 3: So just by deciding what do I want the audience

513
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 3: to feel at certain moments will be enormously helpful. Because

514
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 3: most people don't do that. They just report on their

515
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 3: lives chronologically, even if they're actually telling a moment of change,

516
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 3: they sort of don't think about, well, well, I felt

517
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 3: really upset at that moment. How can I get my

518
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 3: audience to be upset with my boss also?

519
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 1: Right?

520
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,439
Speaker 3: And really it comes down to like characterization of the boss,

521
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 3: which oftentimes means I'm going to remove all the positive

522
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 3: qualities from my boss and only leave the negative ones in. Right,

523
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 3: So again, remove the things that don't serve the story,

524
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 3: leave the things in that do. The other thing is

525
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 3: I think almost all really meaningful emotional responses in storytelling

526
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:48,400
Speaker 3: come through surprise. I think that ultimately, when an audience laughs,

527
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 3: or when they cry, or when they're outraged, I think

528
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 3: it's because they're surprised because something happened that they didn't

529
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 3: know was going to happen. Like laughter is really nothing

530
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 3: but surprise. I've collected words in a certain way, and

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00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 3: I've said them in a certain way that caused you

532
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 3: to go, wow, I've never seen that before. I shall laugh.

533
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 3: Or the opposite, which is I'm going to report something

534
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Speaker 3: to you that's going to be so surprising to you

535
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 3: that it's going to draw tears from you. So paying

536
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 3: attention to surprise in a story, which is really hard

537
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 3: for people because once you've been surprised, it's hard to

538
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 3: remember being surprised, and oftentimes the surprise is one of

539
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 3: the most fun parts of a story, so people often

540
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 3: get to it too quickly. They want to tell you

541
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 3: the surprise so badly that they spoil it by telling

542
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 3: you too early or by giving it away with too

543
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,439
Speaker 3: many clues earlier on in the story. So you have

544
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 3: to say to yourself, simply, when was I surprised and

545
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 3: what emotion did it produce? And now how can I

546
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Speaker 3: surprise my audience and produce a similar emotion obviously not

547
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 3: the same that they are not living your life, but

548
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 3: sort of like a cousin to the feeling that you had.

549
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 3: So focusing on surprise can be enormously powerful, and every

550
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 3: story has at least one surprise, because the end should

551
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 3: always be surprising, because the moment we change is surprising

552
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 3: to us. The moment we look at a tree and

553
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 3: realize we look at a sky, we look at a

554
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 3: blue sky and go, God, I'm so happy the sky

555
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 3: is blue. That's surprising to me that it took me

556
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 3: fifty years to look up and suddenly feel gratitude. It's

557
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 3: not a big surprise, it's not a tear jerking or

558
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 3: a laughing surprise, but it is a surprise that that

559
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,919
Speaker 3: thought finally hit me. That's at least the one surprise

560
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 3: everybody has, which is the realization of transformation that we

561
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 3: feel and experience.

562
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 1: So, mad I was hoping to get your advice because

563
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 1: I've got a workshop coming up with my team on Friday,

564
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: and it's Tuesday today when we're recording this, and I've

565
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: been racking my brains for the right story to open

566
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: this workshop with. And I need a story that's essentially

567
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 1: about like not taking something for granted and sort of

568
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:55,439
Speaker 1: you know, treating something with the.

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Speaker 2: Care that it deserves.

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Speaker 1: And I've sort of been thinking about time in my

571
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 1: life where I've you know, taken something for granted that like,

572
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: I haven't spent a lot of time on it, but

573
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 1: it's in the bend in the back of my mind.

574
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: I've only got one example. It feels a bit lame,

575
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,880
Speaker 1: and I wanted to, like, you know, if you can

576
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,400
Speaker 1: pretend that you are coaching me through this, I would

577
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 1: love to know how I can get to a point

578
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: where I've actually got a story that then I can

579
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 1: you know, start to craft.

580
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 3: So sure, well, what's your what do you have? What's

581
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 3: the thing that's kind of lame.

582
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,400
Speaker 1: So the thing that feels kind of blame is when

583
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: I was in my twenties, I was living in Sydney

584
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 1: and I got a lease on this apartment in a

585
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 1: city apartment, and it had this amazing view of the

586
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: Sydney Harbor, which is kind of like the most beautiful

587
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: thing about Sydney. And I remember the first time I

588
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: walked through that apartment, I was struck by the view

589
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 1: and I just thought, oh wow, like, I will never

590
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: ever get sick of this view for the entire time

591
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: I live in this apartment. And then several months later,

592
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: and this is where my memory is fuzzy. I think

593
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: I had a party or something like that, and I

594
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: remember people standing on the balcony and just ewing an

595
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 1: houring over the view, and you know, and it occurred

596
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 1: to me I'd broken that promise with myself. I'd forgotten

597
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: the beautiful view and that's kind of all I've got.

598
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 2: And it's how do I work with that?

599
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: Or do I go I can do better than that,

600
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: because I feel like that's I don't.

601
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 3: Know, right, Well, let's play with that, you know, In

602
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 3: terms of finding other stories, I guess I'll say this,

603
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 3: it wouldn't be hard for me, and I don't think

604
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 3: I'll be hard for you. To just look at things

605
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 3: in your life that you sometimes take for granted. You know,

606
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 3: I would instantly think my son, my daughter, and my wife.

607
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 3: Any story about them, well, I can easily transform into

608
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 3: a I'm taking them for granted. Right. My job, I'm

609
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 3: sure I'm taking it for granted, And it's easy, be

610
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 3: easy to tell a story about teaching hi Ildren and

611
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 3: how twenty four years ago I was desperate to get

612
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 3: a job in teaching, and today I actually complain about

613
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 3: going to work sometimes, right, even though it's the dream

614
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 3: job I wanted and still my dream job today. So

615
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 3: I would just sort of inventory things I take for

616
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 3: granted and then tell a story about that thing without

617
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 3: really even being worried too much about taking for granted,

618
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 3: because I can tell a story about my son that

619
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 3: has nothing to do with me taking him for granted.

620
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 3: When a story's done, I can say, can you believe

621
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 3: that I take that boy for granted sometimes? That amazing

622
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 3: story that I just told you about my son that

623
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 3: caused you to love him and open your heart in mind?

624
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 3: Can you believe that there are sometimes when he wants

625
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 3: to play a game with me, and I say, no,

626
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 3: that is taking things for granted. So easy pivot from

627
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 3: almost any story, right, anything you care about. So that's

628
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 3: the simple story. But you know what you gave me

629
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 3: was interesting, because that's not an easy thing. The Sydney

630
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 3: apartment story, because it's kind of boring, like it's I

631
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,719
Speaker 3: bought an apartment and then eventually I didn't appreciate it

632
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 3: in the way I should. But the way I might

633
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 3: craft it to make it a little less boring is

634
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 3: again at the beginning, we have to cause people to wonder.

635
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 3: So I would start the story doing something like this.

636
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 3: I'm hosting a party and I look out on the

637
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 3: deck and everyone is staring out at something, and I

638
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 3: have no idea what that something is. Like I have

639
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,479
Speaker 3: looked outside my deck for the last three hundred and

640
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 3: sixty eight days, and as far as I can tell,

641
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 3: there is nothing to stare at. And yet for some reason,

642
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 3: I've got music playing in the room, and I've got

643
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 3: things to do in the room, and everyone's got their

644
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 3: eyes outside, and so I'm starting to wonder, like, is

645
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 3: there a whale in the harbor today that I've never like?

646
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 3: You know, it is as a boat sinking in the

647
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 3: harbor right now, right or you know, has a comment

648
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 3: crashed into the harbor that's caused people to pay attention

649
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 3: to whatever the hell they're paying attention to. So I

650
00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 3: finally make my way outside to the deck and I

651
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 3: idle up against one of my friends and I look

652
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 3: out at the harbor that they can't stop staring at,

653
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 3: and I ask my friend, like, the hell are you

654
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,959
Speaker 3: staring at? And then I suddenly know they're staring at

655
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 3: the beauty of the harbor, which a year ago I

656
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 3: swore to myself. I swore to myself that I would

657
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 3: never take for granted because it is one of the

658
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 3: most beautiful views in the world. But it turns out

659
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 3: that if you stare at the most beautiful view in

660
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 3: the world for a year, it stops being beautiful and

661
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 3: just starts being a view, and that is a tragedy.

662
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 3: I would tell the story like that, But do you

663
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 3: see how rather than saying I rented an apartment and

664
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 3: you told it chronologically, yeah, you've got to give them

665
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 3: something a wonder about. So the thing to wonder about

666
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 3: is why are people staring at a view that I

667
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 3: don't care about anymore? And the realization is I was

668
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 3: supposed to care about the view because it is beautiful,

669
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 3: and I've just forgotten to notice.

670
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: Now, you teach a lot of people all over the

671
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: world how to tell a bit of stories, how to

672
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: cry bitter stories. What are some of the most common

673
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 1: mistakes that you see your students make or struggle through?

674
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 3: Well, people, It depends on the person, but a lot

675
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 3: of people, vulnerability is really hard for people. Right, they

676
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 3: can tell a story about the mean thing their mother

677
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 3: did to them. But if at the end they have

678
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 3: to say, I don't really know if my mother loves

679
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 3: me enough. Right, If that's the thing they have to

680
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 3: say at the end, that's hard for them to say.

681
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 3: So when I hear people tell stories, I've got this

682
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 3: ear for when they pass over the hard stuff. They

683
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 3: speak quickly, Suddenly all the details fly away, you know,

684
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 3: and they'll finish telling the story and I'll say, well,

685
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 3: that was great, but what about that moment in the hallway?

686
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 3: And they're like, I don't want to talk about that,

687
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 3: and I'm like, well, that is, unfortunately the thing you

688
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 3: have to talk about. So the ending is hard for

689
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 3: people because either the vulnerability frightens them or quite frankly,

690
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 3: they haven't really thought about their lives. I think most

691
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 3: people live their lives not thinking about their lives. Storytellers

692
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 3: are deeply curious about themselves in a self centered positive way,

693
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 3: meaning we actually think about ourselves, where most people in

694
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 3: the world they spend all their time thinking about their

695
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 3: spouses and children and children and colleagues and business partners

696
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 3: and customers and neighbors and parents. But how often do

697
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 3: you actually sit down and just say to yourself, like,

698
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 3: why am I the way I am? And why am

699
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 3: I in this place in this time, and what am

700
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 3: I thinking today? A storyteller actually does that in a

701
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 3: really deep and meaningful way. People don't normally do it.

702
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 3: So when I say to them, well, what are you

703
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 3: trying to say at the end of this story, that

704
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 3: is not a question they have even considered most of

705
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 3: the time in their lives. So it's for the first

706
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,320
Speaker 3: time in their life that I'm saying, take the events

707
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 3: that happen to you. Something did happen, and somewhere in

708
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 3: your heart you know what it was, but you have

709
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 3: to go find it now, and that can be an

710
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 3: unfortunate and difficult and scary journey. But we have to

711
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 3: go find it, or unfortunately, I tell them, that's just

712
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 3: a bunch of stuff that happened to you and it

713
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 3: doesn't have meaning. Let's go find something with meaning. And

714
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 3: that's also a hard thing to hear, you know, especially

715
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 3: if you're a guy who has been going to a

716
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 3: bar all your life telling a story that makes everybody

717
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,280
Speaker 3: laugh and I have to tell them, but you understand,

718
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 3: no one remembers your story like you understand six months

719
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 3: later that thing that always makes people laugh is completely

720
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 3: forgotten by everybody, Whereas if you told a more meaningful

721
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 3: story that didn't necessarily get as many laughs, but was

722
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 3: vulnerable and reflected some change and some real you know,

723
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 3: a pivotal moment in your life, people will remember that.

724
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:44,959
Speaker 3: So your choice is do you want to make people

725
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 3: laugh and then be forgettable or do you want to

726
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 3: tell a story that we'll be remembered for a long time.

727
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 3: And that's a hard that's a hard lesson for.

728
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 1: You be able to learn, Matt for people that want

729
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: to consume more of what you are putting out into

730
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,280
Speaker 1: the world, and particularly get the hands on story worthy.

731
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 1: I cannot recommend it highly enough. What is the best

732
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 1: way for people to connect with you.

733
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 3: Well, they can find me at Matthew Dicks dot com

734
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 3: or I'm all of the social media is at my

735
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 3: name if they go to story WHERETHEMD dot com A.

736
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 3: I have sort of a course that I offer. You

737
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 3: can like take the you can do the first module

738
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 3: for free. You can join our Facebook group where I

739
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 3: teach lessons. I teach one hour storytelling lessons every other

740
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 3: week for free. You can just come in and learn

741
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,840
Speaker 3: and actually offer me suggestions on what I should be

742
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 3: teaching next. So it's not hard to find me. You

743
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 3: can just google my name and I'm in many many

744
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 3: places and I'm more than happy to I'm just more

745
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 3: than happy to offer help. You know. It's the reason

746
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 3: I wrote story Worthy. I you know, I certainly want

747
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 3: to sell a book, but really what I wanted to

748
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 3: do was people would come and see me in Hertford,

749
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 3: Connecticut from places like China. You know. I did a

750
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 3: workshop where I had two people from China and a

751
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 3: person from Seattle, someone from Vancouver, and I'm like, this

752
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 3: is crazy because Hartford is terrible, Like there's nothing to

753
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 3: see here. So I wrote story Worthy, thinking, rather than

754
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 3: spending a weekend with me, I'm going to give you

755
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 3: the book. It's not going to be as good, but

756
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:15,359
Speaker 3: it's going to be pretty good, you know. And then

757
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 3: if you get the audio version, you can listen to

758
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 3: me actually speak it, so then you spend sort of

759
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:21,919
Speaker 3: time with me. That was the purpose of the book,

760
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,839
Speaker 3: and really the purpose of the book was I want

761
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 3: there to be better storytelling in the world. I want

762
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 3: people to be able to say stuff that matters. And

763
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 3: I think the most important thing about storytelling is not

764
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 3: really that we're speaking to audiences. I always think the

765
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 3: most important audience we speak to is ourselves. Even if

766
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 3: you never want to tell a story to an audience

767
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 3: in your life, telling stories to yourself about your own

768
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 3: life can do enormous things for you in terms of

769
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 3: framing trauma and moving past difficulties and finding personal understanding,

770
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 3: which can lead to personal growth. The examined life is

771
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,720
Speaker 3: the well lived life, and we don't examine our lives.

772
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 3: But when you become a story to telling you become

773
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 3: sort of obsessed with the idea of examining your life.

774
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 3: So telling stories to yourself is important too. So I

775
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 3: want that for everyone. So whether you find me in

776
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 3: my book, or you find me on the line, or anywhere.

777
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 3: There's lots of places we can learn to become a

778
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 3: better storyteller.

779
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 1: Amazing, Matt, It's just been such a privilege to talk

780
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 1: to you. Story Worthy was definitely one of the best

781
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: books that I've read in a while. I'm so grateful

782
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: that you put all those thoughts in your mind onto paper.

783
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your time.

784
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: So I did end up taking Matt's advice on the

785
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: story that I was going to be delivering in a workshop,

786
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 1: and a few days after this interview, I shared the

787
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,839
Speaker 1: story very much in the way Matt helped reconstruct it,

788
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 1: and it landed so well, infinitely better than had I

789
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 1: told it chronologically.

790
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 2: So if you're looking to really hone your.

791
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,439
Speaker 1: Storytelling skills, I cannot recommend Matt's.

792
00:38:58,080 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 2: Book story Worthy highly.

793
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,320
Speaker 1: It has completely changed the way I think about telling stories.

794
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing part of your day with me

795
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 1: by listening to How I Work. If you're keen for

796
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 1: more tips on how to work better, connect with me

797
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 1: via LinkedIn or Instagram. I'm very easy to find. Just

798
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 1: search for Amantha Imba. How I Work was recorded on

799
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: the traditional land of the Warrenery people, part of the

800
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 1: Cool and Nation. I am so grateful for being able

801
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 1: to work and live on this beautiful land, and I

802
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: want to pay my respects to Elder's past, present and emerging.

803
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,280
Speaker 1: How I Work is produced by Inventium with production support

804
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 1: from Dead Set Studios. The producer for this episode was

805
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 1: Liam Riordan, and thank you to Martin Nimba who did

806
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 1: the audio mix and makes everything sound better than it

807
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: would have otherwise