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Speaker 1: Now joining me in the studio right now is David Girrovolo,

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Speaker 1: who is the CEO of afat the Amateur Fishermen's Association

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Speaker 1: here in the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 2: Good morning to you, David.

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Speaker 3: Good morning Katie, and good morning listeners.

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Speaker 2: Now great to have you in the studio.

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Speaker 1: We did get you on the show this morning because

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Speaker 1: we want to talk to you about the NT Fishing

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Speaker 1: Made app being relaunched. But before we get to that,

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Speaker 1: very much some breaking news throughout this morning. We know

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Speaker 1: that the ABC's Jarno Gibson has a report this morning

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Speaker 1: regarding the Blue Mud Bay decision. Now, obviously we know

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Speaker 1: that decision was made back in two thousand and eight.

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Speaker 1: Documents leaked to the ABC express concerns about the agreement

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Speaker 1: between the Northern Territory Government and the Northern Land Council,

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Speaker 1: describing the agreement as flawed, lacking in transparency and heavily

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Speaker 1: skewed in favor of traditional owners with no consideration of

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Speaker 1: the broader fishing industry.

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Speaker 2: David, from your.

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Speaker 1: Perspective, from our fan's perspective, where are things at in

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Speaker 1: relation to this and in relation to these negotiations.

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Speaker 4: So firstly, Katie, I think it is regrettable that this

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Speaker 4: conversation is occurring as a result of this information coming

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Speaker 4: out the way that it has, And I think you

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Speaker 4: know there are sensitive negotiations and traditional owners' rights around

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Speaker 4: the sole right to speak for their country needs to

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Speaker 4: be respected. So the public discourse around this does have

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Speaker 4: the perspective to the chance or possibility of making things

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Speaker 4: worse in terms of negotiations.

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Speaker 3: So that is a real shame.

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Speaker 4: Having said that, it is there is some characterization in

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Speaker 4: that report from Jarana that you just quoted that talks

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Speaker 4: about a lack of transparency or other stakeholders not being included,

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Speaker 4: and that is certainly the case. The agreement the implementation

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Speaker 4: plan was reached between the NLC and the previous Chief

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Speaker 4: Minister prior to the last election.

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Speaker 3: It didn't include other parties like.

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Speaker 4: The Amateur Fishing Association or our sector or seafood sector.

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Speaker 4: And so we have a situation where a number of

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Speaker 4: things have been delivered by the territory government for the

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Speaker 4: Northern Land Council and traditional owners.

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Speaker 3: We've had ten million dollars for an Aboriginal sea company.

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Speaker 4: We've had increased fishing rights or commercial fishing rights through

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Speaker 4: the aboriginal coastal license rangers, getting fisheries powers and consultation

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Speaker 4: on a review of the Fisheries Act to better incorporate

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Speaker 4: Aboriginal fishing interests. But we've not had any positive progress

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Speaker 4: on fishing access for recreational or commercial fishes. And what

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Speaker 4: we have had is a loss of access to places

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Speaker 4: like the Finnis River and the Mini Minis. So in

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Speaker 4: recent times since the new Chief Minister, Natasha Files, has

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Speaker 4: taken over, it's been some promising signs, some more inclusive discussions,

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Speaker 4: but generally speaking, the last two years have been very

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Speaker 4: difficult and have been heading in the wrong direction from

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Speaker 4: our perspective.

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Speaker 1: And so David talk us through, I mean, with these negotiations,

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Speaker 1: where are they ash or who do they need to

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Speaker 1: be had with to make sure that we've got some

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Speaker 1: progress in this space.

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Speaker 4: So the decision of the previous Chief Minister was to

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Speaker 4: sideline the roles of voices like mine in those negotiations

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Speaker 4: in favor of negotiations between the government and the NLC.

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Speaker 4: More directly, it's also those negotiations have gone away from

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Speaker 4: the Fisheries Minister and the Department of Fisheries, where all

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Speaker 4: of that knowledge and expertise and history around fishing resides,

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Speaker 4: and it's been placed into the Department of Chief Minister

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Speaker 4: and Cabinet and there has been the progress has been

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Speaker 4: very frustrating, to say the least, and I think coming

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Speaker 4: into next year, it looks like we're staring down the

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Speaker 4: barrel of everyday territorians either not having access to vast

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Speaker 4: swathes of rivers and the coastline or having a permit system,

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Speaker 4: which is very uncertain. We don't know how much it's

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Speaker 4: going to cost, where it's going to apply to, how

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Speaker 4: long before you want to go you'll have to apply

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Speaker 4: for one, or if they'll even be offered, And after

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Speaker 4: so much negotiation, after so many years, it's really disappointing

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Speaker 4: that it's come to this, and I just really hope

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Speaker 4: that with the changes that we've seen in government and

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Speaker 4: leadership in the government, there is an opportunity to be

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Speaker 4: more inclusive moving forward.

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Speaker 2: I mean there has to be, Like this is quite unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: We know that the Northern Territory is somewhere where everybody

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Speaker 1: loves to fish, and like you said, right from the outset,

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Speaker 1: we all respect the rights of the traditional owners. There

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Speaker 1: is no doubt about that, but the fact that these

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Speaker 1: negotiations have now broken down or have not happened, and

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Speaker 1: from what you have said, you know, come January one,

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Speaker 1: if there's no an agreement in place, or if there

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Speaker 1: is not, you know, some kind of understanding in place,

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Speaker 1: what is that going to mean for fishing more broadly

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Speaker 1: in the territory.

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Speaker 4: Well, for fishing and also just for living in the territory.

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Speaker 4: I think it's really really important to clarify.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to pick up on that point you

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Speaker 3: made there.

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Speaker 4: The Northern Territory, the traditional ownership and the rights of

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Speaker 4: traditional owners is not in question here. The Northern Territory

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Speaker 4: has the strongest regime of Aboriginal land rights in the country.

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Speaker 4: Traditional owners have the sole right to make decision for

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Speaker 4: what happens on their country and that is not in dispute.

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Speaker 4: What we're talking about here is the fact that the

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Speaker 4: places that traditional owners own and own outright are places

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Speaker 4: that everyday Australians have a lot of love and interest for,

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Speaker 4: and we do need the government to do the best

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Speaker 4: it possibly can to create a way that we can

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Speaker 4: all live together in harmony and have a way of

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Speaker 4: accessing the places that we love and that we care about,

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Speaker 4: so we can have the health and well being benefits

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Speaker 4: that come from accessing nature and being on our rivers

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Speaker 4: and being on our beaches, just like all of the

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Speaker 4: other Australians across the country, but not here in the

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Speaker 4: Northern Territory.

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Speaker 1: Now, I think it's well worth pointing out. My understanding

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Speaker 1: is that, you know, when you talk about these documents

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Speaker 1: that have been leaked to the ABC expressing these concerns,

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Speaker 1: my understanding is that the Minister Responsible, Paul Kirby, didn't

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Speaker 1: sign off on, you know, on on those draft documents.

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Speaker 2: From my understanding is that yours as well well.

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Speaker 4: From from the report it does say that it's that

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Speaker 4: it's unsigned. I mean, I think that's a question better

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Speaker 4: answered by the minister. But look, I have to say

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Speaker 4: in my engagement with the Minister, of course he has

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Speaker 4: been very concerned about things that we've raised with him,

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Speaker 4: or he's been let me say not, he's been very concerned.

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Speaker 4: He's listened to what we've had to say. But also

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Speaker 4: you know, he understands the law in the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 4: He understands that traditional owners have the right. We all

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Speaker 4: understand that this is not about questioning the rights of

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Speaker 4: traditional owners. This is about trying to see if the

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Speaker 4: kinds of arrangements that could be put on the table

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Speaker 4: by the government might be acceptable. Now I would accept,

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Speaker 4: I would expect that that's a negotiation that takes time,

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Speaker 4: that it involves a lot of to and fro, and

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Speaker 4: if we could see that to and fro happening then

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Speaker 4: and that would be a positive sign. We need to

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Speaker 4: look beyond January one, and we need to look towards

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Speaker 4: a shared future. It shouldn't be about finger pointing, but

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Speaker 4: it should be about suspending our disbelief looking at the past.

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Speaker 4: That's been a difficult series of negotiations, but saying can

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Speaker 4: we just try to see what is possible and work

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Speaker 4: towards the future that everyone could be part of.

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Speaker 3: For that many people in.

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Speaker 4: My office and ringing us either in tears or on

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Speaker 4: the verge of it, and wondering why and if they

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Speaker 4: want to continue to live in the territory, And I

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Speaker 4: don't think it's because they might have to get a permit.

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Speaker 4: I don't think it's because traditional owners should be able

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Speaker 4: to rightly benefit from their ownership of waters. It's because

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Speaker 4: of the uncertainty, and it's because they don't feel like

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Speaker 4: we're making any progress and putting things forward that are

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Speaker 4: mutually agreeable and successful.

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Speaker 1: I mean to me and David you may be hesitant

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Speaker 1: to say anything in this space, but to me it

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Speaker 1: does feel like that holly and solely falls at the

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Speaker 1: feet of the government not actually continuing with these negotiations.

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Speaker 4: Well, look, I think there have been people working on it.

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Speaker 4: As I said, I don't think the arrangement has been

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Speaker 4: ideal to date. I think this had its I we

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Speaker 4: had heads of agreement signed by the Territory government. I

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Speaker 4: was in here talking about how excited we were signed

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Speaker 4: by AFAN, the Northern Land Council, Seafood Council and Guided Fishes.

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Speaker 4: What followed on from that at the just prior to

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Speaker 4: the twenty twenty election was a deal signed between the

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Speaker 4: then Chief Minister, Michael Gunner and the Northern Land Council

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Speaker 4: that didn't include the other parties. It only progressed certain

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Speaker 4: parts of that heads of agreement and so we haven't

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Speaker 4: had that involvement in more recent time. We've had more

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Speaker 4: updates than we've had over the last couple of years

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Speaker 4: since Minister Files or Chief Minister Files has taken over.

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Speaker 4: I think that heralds an opportunity to be more inclusive.

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Speaker 4: A lot of the things that have been promised to

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Speaker 4: the Northern Land Council and traditional owners appear to have

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Speaker 4: been delivered, but we do need to see some progress

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Speaker 4: on those negotia and to be flexible about what they are.

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Speaker 3: Some areas currently have permit free arrangements.

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Speaker 4: Talking to fishes, what they really want is to be

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Speaker 4: able to access the place they love and care about

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Speaker 4: and to have certainty. And I would hope that we

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Speaker 4: can meet traditional owners where they are because they want

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Speaker 4: to know that people are on their land are doing

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Speaker 4: the right thing. If people do the wrong thing, they

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Speaker 4: want to be able to stop them. And there is

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Speaker 4: nothing wrong with any of that, but we need to

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Speaker 4: have conversations that entertain all of that possibility, not have

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Speaker 4: some people putting forward something that's been put forward for

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Speaker 4: a long time and rejected or not having enough detail

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Speaker 4: conversations or enough resources into that. You can't just wait

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Speaker 4: for the NLC to come to the government. The government

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Speaker 4: does need to put its best foot forward and I

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Speaker 4: hope that's what's going to happen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I hope so as well, because you know from

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Speaker 1: those previous discussions that you and I had in this studio,

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Speaker 1: but also that we'd had with the NLC. At the time,

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Speaker 1: it all did sound as though, you know, things were

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Speaker 1: quite positive and people were trying to all work together

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Speaker 1: to make sure that it was the best possible outcome

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Speaker 1: for everybody involved.

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Speaker 4: Well, look, if the politics could get out of the way,

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Speaker 4: we've got good people on all sides, with a lot

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Speaker 4: of good will. Since the two thousand and eight Bloom

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Speaker 4: My Bad decision, the vast majority of traditional owners have

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Speaker 4: either made an agreement with the government to facilitate access

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Speaker 4: or allowed interim access.

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Speaker 3: With no benefits going to them.

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Speaker 4: Now, some traditional loans have got frustrated and closed their waters,

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Speaker 4: and places like the Finish and Mini Minis have become closed,

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Speaker 4: and recreational fishes are feeling that very acutely. But there

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Speaker 4: has been a lot of good will out there over

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Speaker 4: that time. When you've had years of goodwill, you should

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Speaker 4: be able to turn that into enduring agreements and a

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Speaker 4: shared future that people can live with. The fact that

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Speaker 4: that appears not to have happened to date is very disappointing,

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Speaker 4: But I hope we can tap into that good will

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Speaker 4: reset where this is at it's regrettable we're having this

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Speaker 4: conversation out in public, but people do need to be

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Speaker 4: informed and to know what's going on, and I think

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Speaker 4: they'd be very disappointed to hear that come January one,

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Speaker 4: a lot more uncertainty headed our way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Look, I'm surprised to hear that, and you and I

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Speaker 1: talk fairly regularly. I'm surprised to hear that come January one.

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Speaker 1: We're now in this situation, so I know that a

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Speaker 1: lot of listeners will probably be as surprised as I am.

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Speaker 2: Look, we'll try our.

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Speaker 1: Best to see if we're able to get the Minister

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Speaker 1: on the show tomorrow, also see if we're able to

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Speaker 1: have a discussion with the NLC. But by the sounds

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Speaker 1: of it, it's actually the Minister that we need to

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Speaker 1: have a chat with to try to work out how

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Speaker 1: they are progressing these negotiations and discussions.

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Speaker 2: Now, David, while I've got you, I will ask you about.

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Speaker 1: The topic that we got you in here to talk

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Speaker 1: about this morning, and that is obviously, we learned that

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Speaker 1: the Fishing Mate app it's been relaunched. It's renamed INNT

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Speaker 1: Fishing and Boating Mate with a new look. Now the

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Speaker 1: app offers anglers and voters who user friendly one stop

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Speaker 1: app is what we've been told. I've had a few

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Speaker 1: people get in contact though and say that they preferred

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Speaker 1: the older version.

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Speaker 2: Talk us through though, firstly, what this new version is

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Speaker 2: all about.

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Speaker 4: Sure, So this app has been developed by NT Fishery

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Speaker 4: so that Northern Territory Government in conjunction with Marine Safety,

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Speaker 4: which is part of the Department of Infrastructure, Planning Logistics.

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Speaker 4: And what they've done is they've pulled together all of

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Speaker 4: the information that recreational fishes need when they head out boating,

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Speaker 4: fishing size limits and fishing rules, boating safety requirements, areas

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Speaker 4: where people shouldn't enter with their boats or where people can.

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Speaker 3: And can't fish.

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Speaker 4: But they've also put that together with tied times and

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Speaker 4: peak fishing times and information that's really useful too fishes.

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Speaker 4: So it is a really handy app and to have

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Speaker 4: all that information at your fingertips is really, really real,

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Speaker 4: really great.

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Speaker 2: So hopefully a bit of a one stop shop for people.

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Speaker 4: Look, it certainly is one stop shop for people. It's

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Speaker 4: been designed to be that one thing. If people open

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Speaker 4: it before they go fishing, it'll even work when people

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Speaker 4: go out of range. The map service will work on there,

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Speaker 4: so it is really handy in that regard, and I'll

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Speaker 4: certainly encourage all fishes to update the.

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Speaker 3: App or download the new app and give it a try.

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Speaker 4: There's always an adjustment to new technology, but if people

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Speaker 4: do have feedback, I'm sure that they could give that

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Speaker 4: to anti fisheries and they'd really like to hear it well.

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Speaker 1: David Tirovolo, the CEO of a f and here in

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Speaker 1: the territory. We really appreciate your time this morning. Thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for coming in and having a chat with us.

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Speaker 3: Thanks Katie,