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Speaker 1: Someone told me once's going to be a good bit

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Speaker 1: of advice. Try and be the first person that puts

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Speaker 1: up their hand on a topic, because once the conversation

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Speaker 1: gets going, you know, your opinion might get lost in

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Speaker 1: ten other opinions that are going on, Whereas if you're

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Speaker 1: the first opinion, then that will sort of stick in

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Speaker 1: people's mind a little bit more so. If it's something

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Speaker 1: that I feel strongly about, I try to be the

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Speaker 1: first person that says something.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics

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Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of

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Speaker 2: their day. I'm your host, doctor amanthe Imber. I'm an

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Speaker 2: organizational psychologist to the founder of innovation consultancy Inventium, and

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Speaker 2: I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work day.

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Speaker 2: My guest today is Wendy Stops. Wendy is a non

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Speaker 2: executive director at the Commonwealth Bank, which is Australia's largest bank,

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Speaker 2: the Colls Group and also fitted for work. Prior to

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Speaker 2: her bored career, Wendy spent sixteen years with Eccentia in

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Speaker 2: senior global roles, and most recently she was the Senior

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Speaker 2: Managing Director for Technology in Asia Pacific. So I met

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Speaker 2: Wendy a few months ago at a Commonwealth Bank event

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Speaker 2: that we were both speaking at, and I must say

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Speaker 2: I was very keen, but very intimidated to meet her.

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Speaker 3: I mean, she sits.

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Speaker 2: On the board of Australia's biggest company, so I was

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Speaker 2: really keen to get her on the show to understand

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Speaker 2: more about what it's like to have such a high

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Speaker 2: profile role on one of Australia's most highs profile companies

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Speaker 2: and what I thought would be a very stressful kind

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Speaker 2: of role given all the drama the banks have been

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Speaker 2: through in the last few years. And look, we cover

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Speaker 2: so much in this interview. We talk a lot about

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Speaker 2: what it's like to be a director of a board,

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Speaker 2: and I think if that's something that you're wanting for

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Speaker 2: your career, I think you'll get so much out of

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Speaker 2: this interview. But I think there's a whole lot of

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Speaker 2: just general great work tips in here. I was really

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Speaker 2: keen to hear about from Wendy was how does she

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Speaker 2: actually make sure her voice is heard given she's sitting

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Speaker 2: on these boards with eight or nine other very confident,

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Speaker 2: very confident and capable and you know, somewhat dominant personalities

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Speaker 2: and her tips for being heard were particularly interesting.

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Speaker 3: So on that note, let's go to.

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Speaker 2: Wendy to hear about how she works. Wendy, Welcome to

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Speaker 2: the show.

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Speaker 4: Thank you, Amantha.

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Speaker 2: All right, I want to start with how does one

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Speaker 2: get a job on such high profile boards like the

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Speaker 2: ones that you were on.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well it's interesting.

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Speaker 1: I mean, my first board came a little bit out

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Speaker 1: of the blue. I had been contacted by companies a

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Speaker 1: number of times, and I was working full time and

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Speaker 1: the company I worked for didn't really allow you to

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Speaker 1: work on board, so I was always.

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Speaker 4: Like, no, not now, No, not now.

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Speaker 1: And then I'd got to the point where I was

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Speaker 1: had actually decided I would retire from full time work.

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Speaker 1: And I actually contacted a old colleague to let her

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Speaker 1: know that I was retiring, and she said, well, actually

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Speaker 1: I gave your name to the chairman of this particular

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Speaker 1: board and we sort of had a chat about it.

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Speaker 1: And I treated it as, oh, well, this will be

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Speaker 1: a good experience. I haven't had a job interview for many,

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Speaker 1: many years, you know, sort of thing.

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Speaker 4: But interesting.

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Speaker 1: I mean, typically the process I went through, I now

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Speaker 1: realize it's pretty typical for most boards.

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Speaker 4: Which is it starts off having a conversation with the chair.

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Speaker 1: And you know you usually have and if they feel

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Speaker 1: you know, you hit it off with them because they're

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Speaker 1: The thing that I thought was interesting is it's not

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Speaker 1: like a typical job interview. This is more about how

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Speaker 1: how will you fit into our board? Will you will

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Speaker 1: the dynamics be right? Do you obviously have some skills

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Speaker 1: and whatever that we need. But it was more just

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Speaker 1: to get to know you sort of type of thing.

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Speaker 1: And at the end of that it was like, well,

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Speaker 1: I'd like you to meet some other members of the board.

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Speaker 1: And so it goes on and on and on, and

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Speaker 1: you sort of cycle your way through. I mean, typically

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Speaker 1: most companies will have you some some of them use

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Speaker 1: a recruiting organization, and so you might start off a

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Speaker 1: meeting the recruiting organization, but you're quickly the discussion with

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Speaker 1: the chair and then and then it's followed up by

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Speaker 1: other discussions with other board members, and eventually at some

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Speaker 1: point they will decide, yes, you seem like the sort

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Speaker 1: of person we like, so then they want you to

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Speaker 1: meet all the board members. Sometimes that's a group fest,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes that's a one on one and yeah, and

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Speaker 1: the process sort of just goes through that for a while,

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Speaker 1: and part of it it's a very two way thing.

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Speaker 1: It's all about you feeling comfortable that this is the

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Speaker 1: sort of company or this is the sort of board

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Speaker 1: that you feel you could contribute to and you could

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Speaker 1: work with, and similarly back the other way, and then

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Speaker 1: at some point eventually it rolls into well, we'd like

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Speaker 1: to offer you a position.

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Speaker 2: So what are some of the questions that you remember

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Speaker 2: being asked during this process? Because it is interesting because

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Speaker 2: it's not like a job interview where they're looking at

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Speaker 2: your resume. I mean, your resume is out there, everyone

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Speaker 2: knows what that is, but it is more about values

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Speaker 2: and culture, fit and personality alignment, So like, what are

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Speaker 2: some things you've been asked?

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Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, there is actually very little around your

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Speaker 1: skills and capability typically because as you said, you're out

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Speaker 1: there already. They know that if you've come recommended from someone,

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Speaker 1: they usually know you and can vouch for your skills

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Speaker 1: and your capability.

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Speaker 4: So it is much more about the fit and the dynamic.

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Speaker 1: So you know, I always ask questions, like, particularly with

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Speaker 1: my first board, well, you know, you're moving from being

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Speaker 1: a full time executive where you used to kind of

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Speaker 1: rolling up the sleeves and getting your hands dirty and whatever.

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Speaker 1: How will you how do you think you will cope

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Speaker 1: with one where you're more overseeing and you can't step

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Speaker 1: over the line into management's role and tell them what

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Speaker 1: to do, But you've got to ask the questions, and

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Speaker 1: you know, so it was things like that, how do

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Speaker 1: you think you'll go moving from that down in the

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Speaker 1: trenches thing to up in the up in the sky

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Speaker 1: sort of type role. There were questions around, you know,

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Speaker 1: at the time. One of the boards I was going

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Speaker 1: through is i'd already you know, as you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: on CBA board and we've been through royal commissions and things,

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Speaker 1: and some stuff have become quite public, and so people

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Speaker 1: were kind of trying to get my sense of, well,

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Speaker 1: on this particular situation, do you really think it's feasible

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Speaker 1: that directors, for example, can be on top of everything

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Speaker 1: going on in the organization when you're dealing with a

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Speaker 1: big organization, you know, because the implications publicly were that

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Speaker 1: we should be. But you know, obviously in some cases

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Speaker 1: that's very difficult to bigger the organization. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: chairs were trying to suss out your beliefs and your

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Speaker 1: values by asking those sort of types of questions. Actually,

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Speaker 1: one of the board members suggested to me, oh, you

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Speaker 1: haven't asked us about the team dynamics amongst the board,

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Speaker 1: you know, how do we all get along and how

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Speaker 1: do we work and whatever. Now, in that situation, I

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Speaker 1: had some inside information, so I sort of said, well,

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Speaker 1: I already kind of have some sense of that from

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Speaker 1: my contacts, you know.

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Speaker 4: But that's kind of the sort.

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Speaker 1: Of questions that go both ways, you know, really trying

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Speaker 1: to understand dynamics, your values, your mindset, the way you

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Speaker 1: might work with other people.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: And do you remember the questions that you have asked

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Speaker 2: most frequently during the process, because it's obviously a two

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Speaker 2: way street.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I've asked questions around things like the strategy

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Speaker 1: of the organization. You know, you can always get a

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Speaker 1: sense of it from some public information, but you want

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Speaker 1: to understand a little bit more about where they're going

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Speaker 1: and what they're thinking.

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Speaker 4: Is, you know that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: I've asked questions I have since I got that first suggestion.

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Speaker 4: Ask questions about the dynamics.

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Speaker 1: Of the group and how well people get along and

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Speaker 1: the dynamics between the executive team and the board again,

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Speaker 1: because that's really important part. It's not just how the

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Speaker 1: board gets along with each other, but it's how the

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Speaker 1: board relates to the executives as well. It's very specific

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Speaker 1: to the organization and how much you know about that organization.

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Speaker 1: So if it's a very public company, you know, like

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Speaker 1: CBA or COHLS too, my boards, you don't have to

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Speaker 1: ask some of the obvious questions because you can read

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Speaker 1: it and you can sort of get an insight. So

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Speaker 1: it's more just really understanding the internal workings of the

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Speaker 1: organization with something like.

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Speaker 2: Team dynamics and the group dynamics of a board, and

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Speaker 2: particularly the boards that you're on. I mean, there are

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Speaker 2: some very strong personalities, very capable but opinionated people. How

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Speaker 2: do you genuinely get a sense around team dynamics before

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Speaker 2: joining a book? Are you sitting in like almost as

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Speaker 2: an observer of board meetings to verify the things that

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Speaker 2: you're being told?

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Speaker 3: How does that work?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, one of my boards allowed me to do that.

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Speaker 4: Wasn't one of the listed ones. Was one of the

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Speaker 4: other ones.

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Speaker 1: But on the listed companies, it's very awkward to be

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Speaker 1: able to sit in because it's very a lot of

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Speaker 1: confidential information being discussed. At that point, you're not officially

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Speaker 1: on the board, so it really is just relying on

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Speaker 1: the conversations and the interviews you have. If there's a

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Speaker 1: group interview, which I did do on two of my

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Speaker 1: listed boards, then you can kind of see the dynamics

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Speaker 1: of the way they're each asking the questions or joking

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Speaker 1: with each other, or you know, whatever the case may be.

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Speaker 4: So it is a lot.

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Speaker 1: About the dynamics of how they seem to be. You know,

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Speaker 1: if one asks the question, does the other one kind

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Speaker 1: of like seem like they're raising their eyebrows and refuging

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Speaker 1: why they're asking that question, or they sort of fully

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Speaker 1: engaged and sort of bouncing off each other, and you know,

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Speaker 1: and so on, and you know, instinct plays a lot

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Speaker 1: as well. I think women in particular, we use our

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Speaker 1: intuition and our instinct. When you see the people you

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Speaker 1: find walk away thinking well, I could see how I

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Speaker 1: could work with that one, that one and that one,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not sure about that person. Their personality seems

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Speaker 1: a little bit you know, different, and maybe that's one

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Speaker 1: that I might clash with or you know, so you

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Speaker 1: do find yourself sort of forming a conclusion based on

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Speaker 1: a one hour interview, but that's really the best way

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Speaker 1: that you've got to do it.

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Speaker 2: Now. You mentioned one of the recruitment processes asking you

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Speaker 2: about the whole Royal Commission process, and you know, twenty

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Speaker 2: eighteen obviously not a great year for the banks and

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Speaker 2: you sit on the board of the biggest one. What

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Speaker 2: was that like for you personally as a director? Like,

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Speaker 2: I guess, can you paint a picture for what that

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Speaker 2: experience was like because I couldn't even begin to a match.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I think the year before

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Speaker 4: was the worse year.

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Speaker 5: Why is that well, because, if you may recall, we

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Speaker 5: had the Ostrak civil case and then we had an

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Speaker 5: opera review done of us individually, and all of that happened.

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Speaker 1: Before the Royal Commission came along, So it was almost

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Speaker 1: like the really sort of initial bad stuff or had

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Speaker 1: all come out before the Royal Commission even came about,

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Speaker 1: and we were already on a path.

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Speaker 4: To fixing things. But it was a very hectic year.

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Speaker 1: So if you imagine, you know, normally a board might

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Speaker 1: meet somewhere between six to eight or nine times a year.

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Speaker 1: You can look at any annual report, and you'll see

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Speaker 1: this how many, how many board meetings there were, and

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Speaker 1: how many each person attended and so on.

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Speaker 4: If you look at that year.

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Speaker 1: Which must have been the twenty and seventeen fiscal year

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Speaker 1: or eighteen year physical year, whatever, you'll see that it

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Speaker 1: was something like twenty seven board meetings.

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Speaker 3: Twenty seven board meetings.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because over the course of the year, there was

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Speaker 1: just so much going on, and you may recall at

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Speaker 1: the same time we had to find a new CEO,

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Speaker 1: so there was a lot going on. And I think

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Speaker 1: in terms of how you cope, I'm probably one of

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Speaker 1: these people that thrives a little bit on being very busy,

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Speaker 1: and I'd probably thrive a little bit on being under stress,

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Speaker 1: you know sort of thing. So to me, it's just

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Speaker 1: like charge ahead, you know kind of thing. We got

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Speaker 1: a meeting next week, Fine, we've got to deal with

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Speaker 1: this the week after, fine, you know, and you just

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Speaker 1: sort of move along. And I tried not to at

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Speaker 1: any point, you know, I, like the rest of the directors,

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Speaker 1: really believed in the organization. And yes, we obviously had

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Speaker 1: some bad things happen and we're going to have to

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Speaker 1: fix it, and we're very passionate about doing that. But

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Speaker 1: when you believe in the organization, it's not hard to

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Speaker 1: get behind it and to really work hard with the

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Speaker 1: with the rest of the board and the management to

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Speaker 1: really help try and you know, fix things and.

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Speaker 4: Move things forward.

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Speaker 1: So you do get quite focused on, you know, the

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Speaker 1: task at hand and what we need to do.

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Speaker 4: So, yeah, it was a stressful year.

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't recall at any point sort of

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Speaker 1: sitting back and going, oh my god, this is horrible.

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Speaker 1: This is you know, there was probably a couple of

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Speaker 1: times when I found myself sitting back and say, boy,

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Speaker 1: I never thought this would happen when I joined this board.

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Speaker 4: But you know, I think all the directors had a

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Speaker 4: sense of that as well.

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Speaker 1: But other than that, it was just a real you know,

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Speaker 1: we've got to focus, we've got a job to do,

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Speaker 1: we need to fix things, and we've just got to

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Speaker 1: work through it. And I have to say, this is

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Speaker 1: where a good board dynamic really comes in play. When

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Speaker 1: you're in kind of a crisis mobile call it a

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Speaker 1: crisis mode. That's where a good board really hits. It

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Speaker 1: straps the dynamic of the board and the ability to

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Speaker 1: talk about the bad things and get things out in

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Speaker 1: the open and debate what's the right answer and whatever

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Speaker 1: was really good and still is, you know, and that's

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Speaker 1: what I think.

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Speaker 4: Really helps when you're in that tough situation. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting hearing you say that you kind of

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Speaker 2: thrive under stress. And I imagine I mean, like in

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Speaker 2: your previous life before boards, like you're obviously in big

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Speaker 2: kind of global roles for some you know, very large company,

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Speaker 2: so imagine you used to stress. So your approach to

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Speaker 2: managing stress is almost breaking it down into here are

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Speaker 2: the tasks that need to get done, and just getting

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Speaker 2: things done.

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Speaker 1: Is Yeah, there's an element of that, but you need

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Speaker 1: relief for your stress as well. And stress relief for

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Speaker 1: me was exercise. Go for run, Yeah, you know, go

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Speaker 1: I can't run anymore. Well, I'm trying to start running again,

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Speaker 1: but my back has prevented me from doing on a

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Speaker 1: regular basis. But you know, the ability to just go

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Speaker 1: to some sort of exercise and clear head and try

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Speaker 1: to get a good night's sleep, that was probably that's

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Speaker 1: probably easier now in my board life than it was

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Speaker 1: in my executive life because I had a lot of

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Speaker 1: global type roles, so you're always on the phone at

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Speaker 1: weird hours of the night and whatever, but getting a

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Speaker 1: good night's sleep as best as you can.

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Speaker 4: Eating well, I'm not one.

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Speaker 1: To say, oh I'm too busy or I'm too stressed,

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Speaker 1: I'm just not going to eat. I always try and

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Speaker 1: make sure I'm still eating well. And as I said,

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Speaker 1: exercise is my real relief.

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Speaker 4: Or I do.

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Speaker 1: It might sound strange, you know, and I tell people

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Speaker 1: sometimes and they look at me and go, really, I'm

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Speaker 1: a great believer in just doing something mindless to get

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Speaker 1: your mind off it.

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Speaker 4: So for me, something mindless.

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Speaker 1: Is reading a junkie magazine or going and watching some

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Speaker 1: junkie like reality TV show or something, something where you

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Speaker 1: can just laugh and just kind of look at it

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Speaker 1: and say, oh my god, look at that idiot, and

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Speaker 1: not have to worry about analyzing it or anything. Just

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Speaker 1: something that just goes straight through to the keeper. So

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Speaker 1: I used to get on planes on my long trips.

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Speaker 1: Actually one of my colleagues we turned out we were

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Speaker 1: exactly the same, and at the airport we'd go and

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Speaker 1: buy like four junkie magazines and we'd share them.

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Speaker 4: Between the two of us on the trip. You know.

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Speaker 1: It was just kind of our way of like unwinding,

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Speaker 1: you know, forgetting about you know, yesterday or the day

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Speaker 1: before and just using that as a way to mind

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Speaker 1: be four junkie magazines takes about three minutes.

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Speaker 4: To read these days.

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Speaker 1: But you know, that's the sort of thing that I

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Speaker 1: do as a complete de stress.

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Speaker 3: I love that's so that's so refreshing to hear you say.

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Speaker 2: I must say like I'm going through in my own

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Speaker 2: life instead of in this time of a lot of

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Speaker 2: change and flax. And I feel like my mom's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: you've got to practice more self care, amanth. And I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I'm too goal directed for that. And I feel guilty

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Speaker 2: when I do things that you kind of describe these

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Speaker 2: mindless activities, like watching something on Netflix. I'm like, no,

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Speaker 2: I need to be working towards achieving something.

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Speaker 1: Yeah looks and you know, and I'm a big believer

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Speaker 1: in and I know you're big on time management whatever,

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Speaker 1: and there's times when I think I'm a really bad

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Speaker 1: time management. The one thing I do do well is

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Speaker 1: I put personal things in my diary and I do

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Speaker 1: not move them.

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Speaker 4: So like a.

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Speaker 5: Haircut, yeah, nails, you know, whatever it may be.

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Speaker 1: In the earlier days when my kids were little it

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Speaker 1: was kids' school stuff, sports, or whatever the case may be.

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Speaker 1: I just put them in my diary and it's like

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Speaker 1: they were no go zones, you know, in terms of

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Speaker 1: moving them. And they're very great because if you don't

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Speaker 1: do that again, when you're under pressure and your stress

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Speaker 1: and everything's going on, it's easy to say, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: I won't get the haircut this week, I'll do it

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Speaker 1: another week, or you know, before you know it, you're

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Speaker 1: like a shaggy dog because you're four months down the

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Speaker 1: track and you haven't had a haircut. So it really

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Speaker 1: is important, I think to try and stick some of

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Speaker 1: those things in the diary, keep them there, because again

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Speaker 1: they're just a little bit of a relief as well.

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Speaker 1: My favorite thing of all times is getting my haircut.

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Speaker 1: I just love sitting there for an hour and a

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Speaker 1: half and letting someone cut my.

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Speaker 4: Hair and it's a great de stressed thing.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: They have plenty of junkie magazines in there as well,

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Speaker 4: so I.

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Speaker 1: Can read a junkie magazine at the same time, like

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Speaker 1: you're two birds with one stone.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I love that. This is I feel like

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Speaker 3: I can learn a lot from this. I go to

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Speaker 3: the hairdresser.

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Speaker 2: I'm sitting there with my laptop, and my hairdresser always jokes.

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Speaker 3: You're always working. About that, you're always working.

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Speaker 4: I don't worry.

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Speaker 1: I've done that too, But it's probably much more of

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Speaker 1: just sitting there chilling out, having a good conversation with

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Speaker 1: my hairdresser, you know, about his latest travels or my

379
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,600
Speaker 1: latest travels or whatever the case may be, as opposed

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Speaker 1: to you know, I only really sit there and work

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Speaker 1: when I really have no other choice, and it's usually

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Speaker 1: just reading.

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Speaker 4: I don't work. I typically just catching up on something.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's nice.

385
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Speaker 2: I want to go back to, like the dynamics of

386
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Speaker 2: a board meeting because of the boards that you're on,

387
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Speaker 2: they're very high profile. They attract confident, talented individuals, and

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Speaker 2: you know, like the average board side like board sides

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Speaker 2: and Australian boarders, you know, I think about like eight

390
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Speaker 2: to ten people is about average for a board. That's

391
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Speaker 2: a lot of people to have your voice heard. Given

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Speaker 2: like a board meeting might be only two three hours long,

393
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Speaker 2: sometimes half a day a day, how do you go

394
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Speaker 2: about making yourself heard in amongst like some very dominant voices.

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Speaker 1: That have good opinion, you know, there's a lot of

396
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Speaker 1: gender items typically on a board, and as you said,

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Speaker 1: it could go from a couple of hours. I have

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Speaker 1: boards that range from a couple of hours to two

399
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Speaker 1: to three days. And so you're looking for what are

400
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Speaker 1: the things that really matter to me that I want

401
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Speaker 1: to raise. You can just about find something to raise

402
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,000
Speaker 1: on anything, but what are the ones that are really

403
00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:41,679
Speaker 1: important from my perspective?

404
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:44,680
Speaker 4: And if it's something that I feel I've got a strong.

405
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Speaker 1: View of or a strong opinion of, and I want

406
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Speaker 1: to make sure I can be heard, I may sound

407
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,399
Speaker 1: out some other directors beforehand. Just yeah, you read that

408
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:55,720
Speaker 1: paper about such and such. What did you think about that?

409
00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,560
Speaker 1: You know, and just see whether my view's the same

410
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Speaker 1: as somebody else's or whether I'm diametrically opposed to someone

411
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:07,120
Speaker 1: else's views or whatever, because usually if there's similar views,

412
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,920
Speaker 1: then you know there's going to be a discussion around

413
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,600
Speaker 1: something anyway, and whether you raise it or whether someone

414
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,840
Speaker 1: else raises it, you know the discussion is going to

415
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,040
Speaker 1: be had and you'll have a chance to get your opinion.

416
00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:20,119
Speaker 4: If it's one where there's kind of oh no, I

417
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Speaker 4: think that's all fine.

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Speaker 1: You're sitting and think I'm not sure it is, then

419
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Speaker 1: you've got to be prepared to just put your hand up. Basically,

420
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Speaker 1: someone told me one's going to be a good bit

421
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Speaker 1: of advice. Try and be the first person that puts

422
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Speaker 1: up their hand on a topic, because once the conversation

423
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Speaker 1: gets going, you know, your opinion might get lost in

424
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Speaker 1: ten other opinions that are going on, Whereas if you're

425
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Speaker 1: the first opinion, then that will sort of stick in

426
00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,280
Speaker 1: people's mind a little bit more So, if it's something

427
00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:48,520
Speaker 1: that I feel strongly about, I try to be the

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Speaker 1: first person that says something.

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Speaker 3: That's great advice, isn't it.

430
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Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, tapping into cognitive biases as well in terms

431
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Speaker 2: of yeah, primacy and recency like would you also kind

432
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Speaker 2: of try to be the last voice for that reason

433
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Speaker 2: as well in terms of getting.

434
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Speaker 1: Heard Occasionally, I think a last voice if it's more

435
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,359
Speaker 1: of an opinion you want to express as opposed to

436
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,200
Speaker 1: asking a question. Yeah, if the dialogue has been going

437
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,040
Speaker 1: on and you just have an opinion about something, then

438
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,239
Speaker 1: it's being the last ones not such a bad thing

439
00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,280
Speaker 1: as well, because that's what might stick in people's mind,

440
00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,880
Speaker 1: particularly if you're able to articulate it in a way

441
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,760
Speaker 1: that it sort of can stick with people.

442
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,280
Speaker 2: I guess, like what you were saying in terms of

443
00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,880
Speaker 2: sounding out board members before going in with an opinion

444
00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,200
Speaker 2: is almost like, I guess, one way of influencing, but

445
00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:38,879
Speaker 2: what our strategies that you've used successfully in terms of

446
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,399
Speaker 2: influencing other people to come around.

447
00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:43,680
Speaker 3: To your point of view on things that really.

448
00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,200
Speaker 1: Might I tend to use the offline conversation more than

449
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,639
Speaker 1: any other mechanis because once you're in the meeting, unless

450
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:55,040
Speaker 1: you're really good at putting your cases forward, you know,

451
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,760
Speaker 1: and you've really thought about the context and you've got

452
00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,320
Speaker 1: a really good way of sort of putting it out

453
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,560
Speaker 1: there that would naturally have people say, hey, that makes

454
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,680
Speaker 1: a lot of sense, you know. And sometimes you can

455
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,840
Speaker 1: do that, but in most cases, I think I tend

456
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,159
Speaker 1: to use the offline conversation. You know, in most of

457
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,359
Speaker 1: your boards, you have an opportunity to liaise with people,

458
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,280
Speaker 1: whether it's walking to the office or having dinner or

459
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,040
Speaker 1: whatever the case may be, or just even ringing up.

460
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,920
Speaker 1: You know. Sometimes I had the chair of one of

461
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,760
Speaker 1: my committees. I'd read something and I had steam coming

462
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,840
Speaker 1: out of my ears on something, and I actually said

463
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:33,760
Speaker 1: to myself, I must ring the chair of that committee,

464
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,480
Speaker 1: and I was just so busy, and then she rang me,

465
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:41,280
Speaker 1: and her concerns were exactly the same as mine.

466
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:42,480
Speaker 4: So we had the.

467
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 1: Sort of discussion beforehand, which meant them when we got

468
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,200
Speaker 1: into the meeting, it was we knew we were.

469
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,200
Speaker 4: Both going to be aligned. So it really just depends

470
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 4: on what the topic is.

471
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,480
Speaker 1: But yeah, I find the offline thing is a good

472
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,240
Speaker 1: way to sound people out, get.

473
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,159
Speaker 4: Your view, hear their view, a.

474
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,919
Speaker 1: Little debate about it betweens, and hopefully you get to

475
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,159
Speaker 1: a meeting of the mind so that you know or

476
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 1: you can convince that person that your view is right.

477
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,480
Speaker 1: Or the other way I think with influencing is persistence.

478
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:20,639
Speaker 1: Sometimes things don't absorb or don't get taken on board

479
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,719
Speaker 1: the first time. But if it's something that you have

480
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 1: a strong view about and it just keeps popping up

481
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,040
Speaker 1: or it keeps rearing its little head, and you.

482
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 4: Have the opportunity to just continue to.

483
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 1: Chip away at it, you know, just sort of remember

484
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 1: last month I said this, you know that I think this,

485
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:39,399
Speaker 1: or I think that you know, you can sort of

486
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,680
Speaker 1: just chip away at it, and surprisingly after a while

487
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 1: everyone's like, yeah, Wendy, you've been saying that, and I'm like, yeah,

488
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:52,160
Speaker 1: you know, so you know that's That's the other way

489
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,879
Speaker 1: is just the persistence if it's something that's not a

490
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,440
Speaker 1: one off moment thing that you know, you know it's

491
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 1: going to come up again, and just keep being away

492
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 1: at it and sooner or later Penny drops yeah.

493
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:04,440
Speaker 4: I like that.

494
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 2: I want to ask about decision making because on a board,

495
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 2: you're presented with so much data in the form of

496
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 2: board papers that you have to read beforehand. But also

497
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 2: there's the role of intuition, and in a way, that's

498
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 2: one of the reasons why you've been recruited onto the

499
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,120
Speaker 2: boards that you sit on, because you've had so much

500
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 2: great experience, particularly in the realm of technology, and they're

501
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 2: kind of in a way like they're hiring your intuition

502
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,119
Speaker 2: based on that all that experience. And I want to

503
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 2: know for you, when you've had really big decisions to

504
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:39,200
Speaker 2: make on your boards, what is your decision making process.

505
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 1: Me personally or personally, I mean, I like to make

506
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 1: sure I've got all the facts because you know, with

507
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 1: my type of background, you tend to be an analytics

508
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 1: sort of type person. So I like to, you know,

509
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 1: get the facts, which means having the ability to ask

510
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: the questions, get the answers. You know, if I think

511
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 1: of a couple of big decisions that we've made on

512
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,199
Speaker 1: various boards recently, it was a bit like that, you know,

513
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 1: get the facts, have the ability to really thrash it

514
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 1: around and ask the questions, and I think not be

515
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 1: rushed into a decision. So you know, I can think

516
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:19,640
Speaker 1: on one of my boards where we had to make

517
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 1: a decision about something. It was a very sudden one

518
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:26,640
Speaker 1: because something had come up. You know, we wanted some

519
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,880
Speaker 1: time to mull over it, so we sort of put

520
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:32,639
Speaker 1: our questions out there on a Friday.

521
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 4: We got answers.

522
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,920
Speaker 1: Over the weekend, we discussed, we debated in between ourselves

523
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,400
Speaker 1: and whatever, and we came back on Monday with sort

524
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: of everyone's questions answered and everyone had a chance to

525
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 1: kind of mull on it and think about it, and

526
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 1: then we were in a position to make a decision.

527
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: So I think getting those facts and information and the

528
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,199
Speaker 1: right contexts and having the ability to having some time

529
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 1: just to mull over it is really important. But then

530
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 1: your intuition can kind of click in as well. If

531
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: I think of another decision recently on a board, and

532
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: we haven't actually made the final decision. And part of

533
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: the reason is it's not a blindingly obvious one. There's

534
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 1: two or three different courses of action, and there's not

535
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 1: one jumping out, and so the board is kind of

536
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 1: just having to spend more time.

537
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 4: Getting some more facts and whatever.

538
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 1: But at the same time, you do find your intuition

539
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: kind of clicking in and saying, I know, these all

540
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 1: seem similar, but this one just doesn't feel right. This

541
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 1: doesn't you know. And it's surprising how many other people

542
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: then say, yeah, I'm feeling the same way.

543
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 2: And for you, with the role of intuition, are there

544
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:51,439
Speaker 2: ways that you perhaps tap into your intuition? Like I

545
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,120
Speaker 2: know that a lot of runners I speak to will

546
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,679
Speaker 2: use runs almost as a way to incubate on something,

547
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:58,719
Speaker 2: or will you sleep on it? You talk about how

548
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 2: sleep's important. Do you have way is that you will

549
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 2: deliberately almost access or fast track your intuition.

550
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 1: I do rely a lot on first intuition, you know,

551
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 1: I often find that, you know, again, I had something

552
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,400
Speaker 1: a few weeks ago. I read it, and my intuition

553
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 1: straight away said I'm not sure.

554
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 4: This is right.

555
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,120
Speaker 1: And then I rightly or wrongly probably influenced a couple

556
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: of other directors.

557
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 4: Have you read this? No, not yet.

558
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 1: I'm not sure it's right, you know, I'm kind of

559
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: And then afterwards I thought, oh, I shouldn't have done that.

560
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 1: I should have let them form their own conclusions. So

561
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: I went back and read it again. And when I

562
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 1: read it the second time, I thought, actually, it wasn't

563
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 1: that bad. So I went back to the director. I said, actually, no,

564
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 1: form your own conclusion.

565
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 4: I'm not sure, you know. But then when we went

566
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,880
Speaker 4: through the process, it was like, no, you know, right, my.

567
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 1: Intuition was right all along, My very first intuition was

568
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 1: right all along, you know, So just cycled right back

569
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:52,199
Speaker 1: to it.

570
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 4: So sometimes I rely a lot of first intuition.

571
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 1: But then I because it is my first intuition, I

572
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 1: don't want to straight away say booll, you know, and

573
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 1: so I do often then go through the process on boards.

574
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: It's quite a formal process at times, you know, to

575
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,400
Speaker 1: go through. But it is surprising sometimes that comes back

576
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 1: to where you started, you know that.

577
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, actually I think my thinking was right.

578
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 1: Something wasn't right here, and it's usually people related. Maybe

579
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 1: it's not as much about a big decision, but it's

580
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 1: about your assessment of an individual or their capability or

581
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 1: something like that.

582
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 4: That's where I find my.

583
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: Intuition clicks in a lot more around an individual, you know,

584
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,640
Speaker 1: whether they're the right person or not for a particular

585
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,640
Speaker 1: position or whatever the case may be. So I think

586
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 1: there is a bit of that, you know, women's intuition

587
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: sort of, particularly when it comes to reading people.

588
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,919
Speaker 2: One of the things I remember so we connected at

589
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 2: Combak's Women in Focus conference, and I remember hearing you

590
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 2: speak on a panel and you talked about your ethics test,

591
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 2: the should we test, And I'm wondering if you can

592
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,239
Speaker 2: explain what that is and how you use that.

593
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 1: I mean, I think from the Bank's perspective, but it

594
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 1: probably applies in most people's life as well. When you're

595
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: doing business.

596
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 4: Is there's it's very easy to get caught.

597
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 1: Up in I guess, the dynamics of you know, following

598
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,959
Speaker 1: a process or a policy or you know, something like that,

599
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 1: and you know, coming to a decision at the end

600
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: of that as to you know what you should do,

601
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,959
Speaker 1: whether you should I don't know, grant someone alone or not,

602
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 1: or you know, whatever the case may be. And the

603
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 1: should we test is really just I think with all

604
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 1: of the discussions in the last couple of years around

605
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: customers and doing the right thing by customers, I don't

606
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: you know, I don't see anyone in the bank that

607
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: I've come across, at least who hasn't wanted to do

608
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: the right thing by the customer. But sometimes probably some

609
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: of the policies and processes and things have maybe got

610
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: in the way of it necessarily being the right thing

611
00:28:58,920 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: for the customer.

612
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 4: So the should we.

613
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: Test is really a case of saying, just put yourself

614
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 1: in the position of that customer, their situation, their environment,

615
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: you know, where they would.

616
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 4: Have is this really the right thing for them?

617
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: Is this really whether it's a loan or whatever the

618
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: case may be, is this the thing that's really going

619
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: to help them?

620
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 4: Or is it not?

621
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: And even if they're technically they could get through the

622
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: process and you could give them a ticket, the other end,

623
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: you've got to sort of say is it is it right?

624
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 4: You know?

625
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 1: And I think as an organization now, and as I said,

626
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 1: I think it applies not just in COMBAK, I think

627
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: it applies in all organizations. When you're dealing with customers

628
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: or dealing with staff. You know, it's not dissimilar when

629
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: you're dealing with staff when you say, well, you know,

630
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 1: let's say let's assume someone's about to leave the organization,

631
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: you know, and you follow the strict process that says, well,

632
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: you know, they're not going to get paid this, and

633
00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 1: they're not going to get that or they're not going

634
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 1: to do this, and you find yourself looking at the

635
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: situation and saying is that the right Is that the

636
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: right thing for that individual?

637
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 4: You know?

638
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: But it's really putting yourself in their position and saying

639
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: is this should we really do this? Is this the

640
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: right thing for that person?

641
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 2: Something that I find a lot of women, like in business,

642
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 2: struggle with and write about.

643
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 3: A lot is imposter syndrome.

644
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 2: And I want to know for you the boards that

645
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 2: you're on, and I mean, you know, you're on the

646
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 2: board of the company in Australia has the highest market capitalization,

647
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 2: like in some ways the biggest company in Australia, And

648
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 2: I look at you, I'm sitting across from you now

649
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 2: and I'm like, surely you don't doubt yourself, Like you

650
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 2: just have to be so confident in that role in

651
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 2: that you know, group of people that make up the

652
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 2: CBA board I guess I want to know, is imposter

653
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 2: syindury or something that you have related to in your career.

654
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 2: Was there a period in time where you kind of

655
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 2: felt like you got to the other end of it

656
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 2: and you kind of felt confident and like owned your space?

657
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 2: Or do you still even in board meetings, I don't know,

658
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 2: sometimes feel like can I speak up on this?

659
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: Yeah? No, I've experienced imposter syndrome and I still experience

660
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: in poster syndrome. Yeah, it's quite interesting. I had this

661
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: conversation on a panel I was on once the same

662
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: that I got asked a similar question, and there was

663
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: surprise in the room and interesting. One of my friends

664
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 1: was doing the panel with me.

665
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,239
Speaker 4: She said me out, I would never have guessed that.

666
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 4: I thought, you you know, But look, I think you

667
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 4: you know.

668
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 1: I am a I'm a worrier type person.

669
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 4: That's just my nature.

670
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 1: And what comes with that, I think is doubt at

671
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: times as to whether that's the right thing or whether

672
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: I'm good enough for that or not. And I often

673
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: tell the story on one of my boards. When I

674
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: was going through the process, I found for a long

675
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: time I used to say, well, I was really lucky

676
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 1: because I just happened to be in the right place

677
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 1: at the right time, you know. And I got the

678
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: point when I'm like, stop saying that you were not lucky.

679
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 4: You actually earned that. You know, you went.

680
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: Through the interview process a lot with However, many other

681
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: people went through the interview process and they chose you.

682
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 1: So it wasn't just luck, you actually deserve that. And

683
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 1: so I stopped saying I was lucky. I just happened

684
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: to be in the right blazer at the wrong right time.

685
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 4: And so I do have even in some boards, I find.

686
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: Myself, particularly if it's an area that's not necessarily my

687
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: strength or my area. I may say I think I've

688
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: got some questions about this, but I find myself sitior

689
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 1: thinking am I going to come across as a real.

690
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 4: Idiot if I asked this question?

691
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: Or are they going to think I'm stupid if I

692
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 1: say this is my opinion on this, you know, when

693
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: some may feel I'm not overly qualified to say it.

694
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 1: And again I've had to kind of, you know, slap

695
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: myself on the face a few times and just say

696
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: just say it.

697
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 4: For goodness, say.

698
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: The worst thing that can happen is someone can say

699
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 1: Wendy that's a dumb question, but answer it anyway, you know.

700
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 1: I mean that the general rule of thumb on most boards,

701
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: particularly if you've got a good collegiate board, is.

702
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 4: No question is a dumb question. Anyone can ask whatever

703
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 4: they like.

704
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:02,959
Speaker 1: So I've had to come I went through a period

705
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: where I really hesitated asking things because I wanted to

706
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 1: convince myself beforehand this was absolutely a question that was

707
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: going to add value, and people weren't going to sit

708
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 1: there and raise their eyebrows thinking why did you raise

709
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: that stupid question. I'm the sort of person that I

710
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: like people to like me, so I didn't want anyone

711
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: in the room thinking, oh my gosh, she's an idiot,

712
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 1: you know, for asking that question. So I over analyzed everything.

713
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 1: As time's gone on, and I've got on more boards,

714
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: because this is one of the benefits despite what people

715
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 1: think of being on multiple boards, is you learn and

716
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: you take things to other boards.

717
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 4: And so as time's.

718
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: Gone on and I've been in different environments and I've

719
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: got more experience with doing things, I'm much more confident

720
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: now to just come out and ask the questions and

721
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: recognize I won't always be asking the smartest question, but

722
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: you know, it's in my mind it's an important question.

723
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 4: So just ask it.

724
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 1: So, yeah, I still go through that, you know today,

725
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: I still go through that. But if I do eventually

726
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: ask the question, I do it with confidence. I don't

727
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: do it with, you know, with any trepidation or any

728
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 1: quivery voice or anything that I've got a really dumb

729
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: question to ask, But I just want to because you

730
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: don't want people to feel like you're not confident or whatever.

731
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: So you do have to just put yourself out there

732
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 1: and take the consequence if it ends up that everyone

733
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: else doesn't agree with you.

734
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 2: So I think that's an interesting strategy, just kind of

735
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 2: almost faking the confidence even if you've got no idea

736
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,320
Speaker 2: whether this is the stupidest question you've ever asked.

737
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you've got to do that. You know,

738
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 1: that's what people expect of the position that you're in.

739
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that every time I have a question.

740
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 1: I haven't got any.

741
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,879
Speaker 4: Confidence in asking you. But you know, there are the.

742
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 1: Occasional things that you want to raise or you want

743
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 1: to say, and you do have a little bit of

744
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 1: doubt as to whether it makes sense to being like,

745
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 1: you know, I'm just going to have to say it

746
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 1: and we'll see where the conversation goes.

747
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 2: It sounds like also the self talk that's going on

748
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,839
Speaker 2: in your head is I guess like plays a role

749
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 2: for helping you overcome you know, those moments of imposter

750
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 2: you look and.

751
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you talk about impasse sino.

752
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: You know, people will look at me and look at

753
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 1: what boards I'm on and what I've achieved whatever. And

754
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 1: I get the comments from people about what, my god,

755
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 1: You've had a fabulous career, you have been a fabulous

756
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,320
Speaker 1: achieve or that this that, and I sit there in

757
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: the back of my mind nothing special really, I just

758
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:23,839
Speaker 1: you know, just you know, so I doubt my own

759
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 1: self at times, you know, and I find myself looking

760
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: at other people and thinking that, you know, I look

761
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: at other women and say, wow, you my god, that

762
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: woman's amazing, you know, and as far as I know,

763
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: they're thinking the same thing about me.

764
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 4: You know sort of thing. So you know, you just

765
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 4: sort of.

766
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 1: You just have to go with the flow eventually, you know,

767
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,760
Speaker 1: sort of accept that that you may feel at times

768
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: like nothing's been special about your career or what you've done,

769
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: but there are people out there that really do in

770
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: particularly I'm very conscious of women, you know. I am

771
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: conscious that, whether I believe it or not, that I

772
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: am a model for a lot of women, and therefore

773
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 1: I want to help in whatever way I can. I

774
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: like doing that, and I feel that if nothing else,

775
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 1: I can impart on younger women, you know, who are

776
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: really trying to shape their career or do their things,

777
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: you know, with some of my insights or experience, even

778
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 1: though there might be times when I doubt myself, you know,

779
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 1: but that's just the way it is.

780
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 4: I think a lot of it's being a woman, you.

781
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 3: Know, yeah, and being human, yeah as well.

782
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, surely some of the men on the boards are

783
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 2: suffering from this too at time.

784
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, they probably are. But I always say to people

785
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 1: men are much you know, if you look at all

786
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 1: the characteristics of women versus men, and there's lots of

787
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 1: studies that talk about, you know, women are better at

788
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: multitasking and men aren't. And you know, men are great

789
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: at beating their chest and coming across as super confident,

790
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 1: whereas women tend to be a little bit more intimidated.

791
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 1: And I mean, I do believe in a lot of

792
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 1: those studies because I think you see.

793
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 4: That a lot.

794
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 1: But I have no doubt that there's men there, you know.

795
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 1: I reached out to one of the men on one

796
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 1: of my boards and said, you know, you've got this

797
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 1: particular experience. I'd like to get some more insight in

798
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 1: that area. Can you suggest anything I should read or

799
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 1: learn or do or whatever to build up my skills

800
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,720
Speaker 1: in that area? And you know, and he was overly helpful.

801
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 1: And then he turned around back to me and said, well, quick,

802
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: pro crow, you've got it.

803
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 4: I don't have an IT background.

804
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: Is there anything you should you suggest that I should

805
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 1: do to get bad? And I found myself thinking, oh, yeah,

806
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 1: I forgot. I actually do have some skills that he.

807
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 4: Doesn't have, you know. And so now we've got a

808
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 4: little bit of a two way thing going between us.

809
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: Occasionally he'll flick something my way, and then I flick

810
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: something back his way, you know, you know, coming from

811
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,359
Speaker 1: the two different skill sets that we have. You know,

812
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: so you do have to remind yourself there are men

813
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 1: out there that feel that way too. They might, I think,

814
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: men just don't aren't so public about it.

815
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 3: They don't talk about it, do they know?

816
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: And they're probably not in line to go to a

817
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 1: woman to get advice on it, they're probably more inclined

818
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 1: to go to another.

819
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, what's the most challenging thing about sitting on

820
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 2: a board? Because I feel like some people, you know,

821
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 2: perhaps not if you're on the board of CBA, but

822
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 2: you know, they might kind of go, well, you know,

823
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 2: you've got seven or eight meetings a year, and yeah,

824
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 2: what's a big deal, what's the big deal? Like, what

825
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,280
Speaker 2: is the most challenging part of sitting on a board

826
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 2: for you?

827
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 1: I think there's a couple of things. One is actually

828
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: the public attention, particularly when you're on high profile boards,

829
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 1: of which you know, at least two.

830
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 4: Of mine are and some of my non listed one.

831
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 4: One of my non listed one's probably reasonably high profile too. So,

832
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 4: you know, because.

833
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: I always said I wouldn't join a board unless I

834
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 1: felt I could be passionate and get behind what the

835
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 1: company is trying to do. Yeah, I was not a

836
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 1: CBA customer before I joined the CBA board. Now I'm

837
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 1: very passionate CBA customer, and not because I'm just on

838
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: the board, but because I really do believe in what

839
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: we know, what they're doing, and I have now experienced

840
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 1: two banks, and I believe they're.

841
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 4: Way better than the other one, you know.

842
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: So, But my reason for saying that was then when

843
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: things come out in the public criticism and things like that,

844
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 1: you find yourself like taking it personally.

845
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 4: You know, it's kind of like, oh, that's not that's

846
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 4: not fair. That person said that they were giving it

847
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 4: one sided view.

848
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 3: You know, they need to you know.

849
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 4: And I made the.

850
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 1: Comment before about the bank, how I said, you know,

851
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 1: the large majority of the employee is very passionate about

852
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 1: doing the right thing by the customer, and so they

853
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 1: take it quite personally as well when they read some

854
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 1: of the horrible things or things that have happened, or

855
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 1: the criticism that's you know, the culture is bad or

856
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,760
Speaker 1: you know whatever. And so the public attention, the media,

857
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 1: the you know, comments in the street, your friends, the

858
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 1: friends who raise things with you, you know, and you find

859
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: yourself defending. And I have to keep reminds of stop defending.

860
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: Listen to what they're.

861
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,800
Speaker 4: Saying, you know, take it on board, you know whatever.

862
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 1: But when you're passionate about an organization and what it's

863
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 1: trying to do, it's quite uncomfortable to be dealing with

864
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 1: all of that public attention. I think the other thing

865
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 1: just on a working basis is it is hard to

866
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: that line between being an executive and being a director,

867
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 1: And the more experience you get as a director, the

868
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 1: more it comes more naturally. But certainly in the early

869
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: days there is a temptation to want to tell them

870
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 1: what to do now. You know you, well, I think

871
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 1: you should be doing this, or why aren't you doing that,

872
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: or you know whatever, based on your own experience, And

873
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: that's a hard line because you want to give them

874
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 1: food for thought and give them or influence or whatever,

875
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 1: but not be telling them what to do, because ultimately,

876
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,399
Speaker 1: you know, the CEO and his executive are running the company.

877
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 4: And they need to make their own decisions.

878
00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: And I think the third thing I would say is

879
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:04,240
Speaker 1: probably that fine line again between weeding out what's important

880
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 1: and what's not.

881
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 4: You know, when you're.

882
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,399
Speaker 1: Reading pages and pages and pages of board papers, it's

883
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 1: very easy to make comments and notes on you know,

884
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: a lot of topics and pages, and you've got to

885
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 1: be able to sit back and say, how do I

886
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 1: distill all of this. Is there some underlying theme going

887
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:27,800
Speaker 1: on here? Is there something in here that's really important

888
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 1: to draw out? And all these other comments I've made

889
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 1: are really insignificant now that I think about it, or

890
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: so it is that, you know, defining what's important and

891
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 1: what's not and being able to sit back from the

892
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 1: trees and kind of absorb what you've read or what

893
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 1: you've seen or whatever and say, do we have a

894
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 1: problem here or is there some underlying issue that we

895
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 1: need to try and draw out?

896
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 4: Or yeah, that's they're kind of the hard points. I think.

897
00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 3: Do you have a process for doing that?

898
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 4: But I wish I had a magical process for doing that.

899
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 1: Most of the boards operate off of a board app

900
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 1: sort of thing. Or you get all your papers and

901
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 1: I take I do a lot of highlighting, making notes,

902
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 1: you know, trying to I do that as I go through,

903
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 1: and then at the end I try to say, okay,

904
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 1: now that I've read that whole paper, all that suite

905
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 1: of papers, just sit back, relok at the key things

906
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 1: I highlighted or the keynotes that I took, and just

907
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 1: have a think about is there some underlying thing here

908
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 1: that I want to do? Because you've got to remember,

909
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: you get these papers anywhere up to you know, ten

910
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 1: days or whatever before a meeting, and if it's a

911
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,760
Speaker 1: meety meeting, which some of the you know, the bigger

912
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 1: boards happen to be. It's a lot to absorb and

913
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:51,280
Speaker 1: it's a lot to remember.

914
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can imagine there's just so much information to

915
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 2: absorb and then to be able to retrieve at certain

916
00:42:58,200 --> 00:42:59,320
Speaker 2: points in the board meeting.

917
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 3: What's worked for you in terms of.

918
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 2: You know, you're kind of going through your highlighting things

919
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,399
Speaker 2: like do you have them like a structure that you'll

920
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 2: summarize your key points, questions and so forth.

921
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: Because I use the app, Everyone uses the app a

922
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:15,879
Speaker 1: lot more these days to take their notes and comments whatever.

923
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:17,959
Speaker 4: I often have a notebook next to me as well,

924
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 4: and so.

925
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 1: If it's a particular committee or a gender art or

926
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,839
Speaker 1: whatever that I think there's really something going on here

927
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,720
Speaker 1: or something's really important, I may actually put the notes

928
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: in my notebook as a sort of a prep note

929
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: to just remind me when we're in the middle of

930
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 1: that meeting or whatever that I've got some key points. Otherwise,

931
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 1: you find yourself, you know, the conversations going on. You're

932
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,840
Speaker 1: flicking online, flicking, flicking, flicking, going through Oh yeah I

933
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 1: made that comment there, and a couple more pages, Oh

934
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:51,399
Speaker 1: yeah I made that comment there, you know, and you're

935
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,439
Speaker 1: trying to you can't sort of work by just flick flick,

936
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 1: flick flick, trying to go through, you know, a ten

937
00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 1: page thing and pick out the five things that you.

938
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:00,800
Speaker 4: Highlight along the way.

939
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 1: So I either put it in my notebook, or I'll

940
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 1: go back to the very first page of that particular

941
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 1: document and I'll put a note on the first page

942
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:11,919
Speaker 1: and summarize the key things that I want to draw out.

943
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 4: That's my latest technique anyway.

944
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 1: The notebook or the sticky note at the beginning of

945
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 1: the each topic, you know, to draw it out, because

946
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 1: you just may not even have the time to go

947
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 1: flick flick flick, and other conversations going. We're trying to

948
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 1: listen to the conversation, you know, and you might miss

949
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 1: the point that you want to make. So you do

950
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 1: have to have some way of pulling it up in

951
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 1: front of you. A sticky note at the beginning or

952
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,240
Speaker 1: the summary on the notebook is the way that I've found.

953
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 1: That's my latest theory.

954
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,720
Speaker 2: Anyway, that sounds like a good system. My final question

955
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 2: for you, given like you've had this amazingly a last

956
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:49,800
Speaker 2: three successful career, like what would have been the best

957
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 2: pieces of advice that you've received that have had a

958
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 2: big impact on how you've approached things around work.

959
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting because people always ask you, did you

960
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,280
Speaker 1: have mentor I never really had mentors in my career,

961
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 1: and it's surprising I found out how many other people

962
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 1: were exactly the same. Actually, but I always I guess

963
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 1: I don't know that it's so much advice that's been

964
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 1: given to me, but as more as things that I've

965
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:18,759
Speaker 1: learned over time, and when people ask me, you know,

966
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 1: particularly the younger generation today as they're sort of working

967
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,240
Speaker 1: their way up their ladder, and I think the younger

968
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 1: generation today is a little bit more susceptible to oh,

969
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 1: I don't like that, so I'll go.

970
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 4: Find another job, or I'll you know, do this words in.

971
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 1: I guess back in my day, you're kind of stuck

972
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,839
Speaker 1: with things, you know, for a while. But the things

973
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:37,800
Speaker 1: I always say to people, some of the key tips

974
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 1: I give them is firstly, do your job and do

975
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 1: it well.

976
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 4: That's square one. You don't get anywhere by not doing

977
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:45,359
Speaker 4: your job well.

978
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 1: And people say, well, that's obvious, and I'm like, well

979
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 1: it's not obvious because when I say do your job

980
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 1: and do it well, I mean, whatever you're asked to do,

981
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 1: do it and do it well. So if you ask

982
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 1: to go and photocopy two hundred pages, you show them

983
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:00,879
Speaker 1: you're the best damn photocopy that they've ever scene, you know,

984
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 1: So you know, don't winge about the things that are

985
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 1: a bit boring or whatever. Every job has good bits

986
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 1: and bad bits or whatever, and you've just got to

987
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 1: do them all.

988
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 4: Well, that's my theory.

989
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 1: And then you know, if you're doing your base job well,

990
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:19,320
Speaker 1: you get noticed for starters.

991
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:20,240
Speaker 4: If you're doing it well.

992
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: But again, then gives you a license to use a

993
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 1: little bit of creativity or a little bit of innovation

994
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,280
Speaker 1: or put up your hand. And I say to people,

995
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,720
Speaker 1: just volunteer for things that are just not outside.

996
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 4: The day to day job.

997
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:36,320
Speaker 1: So you know, someone wants someone to help with the

998
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 1: annual Christmas party, or volunteer or someone you know. I

999
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 1: remember years ago I was I'd come back from a

1000
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 1: stint overseas and I come back, I went onto this account.

1001
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 4: I was a consultant.

1002
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 1: Then I went onto this account and there's a few

1003
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,360
Speaker 1: of us on there, and I noticed that we hadn't

1004
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 1: done like an account plan for that account. So I

1005
00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 1: asked the person who was leading the account, would you

1006
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: mind if I help me?

1007
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 4: No, No, go ahead, you know.

1008
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 1: I mean I did that, and it wasn't less than

1009
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:08,759
Speaker 1: twelve months later I was actually running the account right,

1010
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 1: So because then to the boss, I was the obvious successor,

1011
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 1: because I was switched on to what we needed, you

1012
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 1: know whatever, whereas everyone else was just doing their day job.

1013
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 4: You know.

1014
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:19,839
Speaker 1: So I always say to people, just stick your neck

1015
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: out a little bit, but you can't do that if

1016
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 1: you're not doing your job well. Start stick your neck out, volunteer,

1017
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:28,319
Speaker 1: do some things. Don't do it to the point where

1018
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,319
Speaker 1: you can't do your job well, but enough that you

1019
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 1: get noticed and you expose yourself to more people in

1020
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 1: the organization, because when it comes to promotion times and

1021
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,320
Speaker 1: things like that, you just don't want the soul voice that's.

1022
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 4: Speaking for you. You want multiple people to speak for you.

1023
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 4: So sort of being out there a little bit, you know.

1024
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 1: So there's some of the base the basic advice that

1025
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 1: I give people, and I could probably sit here for

1026
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:54,799
Speaker 1: an hour and reel off a few more, but they're

1027
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 1: the base ones that I say that you've just got

1028
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 1: to get right and stick yourself out there and put

1029
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:00,400
Speaker 1: your hand up and do some things.

1030
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:01,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's great.

1031
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 2: And like you said, they're like, there's actually probably not

1032
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 2: that many people that do their job well and every

1033
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:13,319
Speaker 2: part of their job and embrace even the seemingly more

1034
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 2: menial or less challenging parts with the same vigor that

1035
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:18,280
Speaker 2: they all approach.

1036
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 1: I've always said the people, the bad times are the

1037
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:24,960
Speaker 1: best times because you learn so much in those bad times.

1038
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,799
Speaker 1: It then makes you a better person for the next job,

1039
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 1: or the next career or whatever it may be. So

1040
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 1: you know, you asked me before about the tough times

1041
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 1: with Royal Commission and whatever. Yes, it's been tough, but

1042
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 1: I've learned a lot as well, and I am now

1043
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:45,320
Speaker 1: you know, even more switched on with not just that board,

1044
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 1: but my other boards as well, you know, with various things.

1045
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 1: So I'm a great believer in learning from the bad times.

1046
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,839
Speaker 1: And don't just bail. You know, some people just want

1047
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 1: to bail. Oh it's tough, I'm getting out of here.

1048
00:48:58,160 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 1: I'm going to go No, no, no, stick it out,

1049
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:02,759
Speaker 1: because you'll learn so much. You'll come out at the

1050
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 1: other end much stronger, much tougher, and you'll be a

1051
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:09,720
Speaker 1: better in terms of moving your career.

1052
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, God, I couldn't agree more that the hard

1053
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:15,840
Speaker 2: times with Inventium have been where the most powerful lessons

1054
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 2: have come from for me.

1055
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 3: That's so one hundred percent. Wendy. I've loved talking to you.

1056
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 2: It's just been fascinating and humbling and encouraging in very

1057
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:26,760
Speaker 2: many ways.

1058
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 3: So thank you so much for your time.

1059
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 4: And thank you it's been fun.

1060
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 2: Hello there, it's me again. Thank you so much for listening.

1061
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 2: I hope you liked my chat with Wendy and got

1062
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:39,800
Speaker 2: some useful tips out of it. And if you're enjoying

1063
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 2: how I work, I would love it if you would

1064
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:45,399
Speaker 2: take just five ten seconds to write a review on

1065
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening to this. I read

1066
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 2: every single one of them and it's just amazing. Getting

1067
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 2: feedback from listeners always brings a smile to my face,

1068
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:58,399
Speaker 2: and also reviews help other people find this podcast as well.

1069
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 2: So thank you in a advance if you plan to

1070
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 2: do that today, and thank you if you've already done that.

1071
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 2: So that is it for today and I'll see you

1072
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 2: next time.