1 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: This is the Happy Family's podcast with doctor Justin Kilson. 2 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: Were Luc and Susie, our husband and wife radio team 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: with three young boys. This is the podcast for the time, 4 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: poor parent who just wants some answers now. 5 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 2: And su As we had kids a little bit later 6 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 2: on in life, not by choice but by circumstance, but 7 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 2: it was quite fascinating for us when we got the 8 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 2: oldest to prep for the very first time, because as 9 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,159 Speaker 2: we hung out with other parents, what we saw was 10 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 2: a huge difference and a change of what age parents were. 11 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 2: We were in a group where where almost everybody in 12 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 2: this group was first time at preph The oldest was 13 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 2: fifty and the youngest was early twenties for their first 14 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:45,839 Speaker 2: kid and everything in between. And it just kind of 15 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 2: showed us that maybe the demographic structure of our world 16 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 2: has changed so dramatically. It's no longer just young mums. 17 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 2: There's a heck of a lot more older mums joining 18 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 2: the school run than ever before. 19 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: That science does what science does and comes out and 20 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: tries to say that one group of mums is better 21 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: than another, and it's all based on age. Doctor Justin 22 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: Coilson going all controversial from Happy families dot com dot au. 23 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 1: Are older mums better? 24 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 3: Oh that's just such an unfair question. 25 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 4: I know, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, nothing young at all? 26 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,199 Speaker 4: You know this is this is one of those things 27 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 4: where you can never really say the right thing without 28 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:31,040 Speaker 4: upsetting somebody. And that's not I don't think any of 29 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:33,119 Speaker 4: us intend for that to happen. I think what's really 30 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:35,559 Speaker 4: interesting here is for us to have a conversation about 31 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 4: what the data is telling us, because we all know. 32 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 4: And I'll preface my comments by saying, we all know 33 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 4: some mums who have had their children very very young, 34 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 4: who are extraordinary mums. 35 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. 36 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 3: And some who have had their children who are quite 37 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 3: you are, yeah, and they have been exemplary mums and 38 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 3: mums in between who have been amazing. And we also 39 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 3: know mums at the other end of the spectrum in 40 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 3: terms of the way they're paired, regardless of what age 41 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 3: they were when they had their children. With all of 42 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 3: that as a preface or as a backdropper, I disclaim 43 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 3: that's it research tells us. In fact, a brand new 44 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 3: study just published that children of older mothers have fewer behavioral, social, 45 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 3: and emotional difficulties. There is some suggestion in this research 46 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 3: that older mums may actually be better mums for a 47 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 3: handful of really quite curious reasons, such as hands and 48 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 3: saying yes tell me why I am so good? 49 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: So in my mind I immediately go to the fact, 50 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: is it that we were raised generationally different? So for me, 51 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 1: I think there's nearly twenty years between me and my 52 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: youngest friend with a child the same age as my children, 53 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: So generationally we're quite different. How we were raised. I 54 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: wasn't raised in an age of technology, wasn't raised in 55 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: an age where it mattered to try and keep up 56 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: with everybody. 57 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 2: Life experience. 58 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 3: Life experience has a lot to do with it. Now 59 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 3: I'll share these things, but before I talk about why 60 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 3: it's good to be older, let me talk about what 61 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 3: it's good to be younger. Okay, First of all, maternal 62 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 3: health and baby health in your early twenties through to 63 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 3: your mid to late twenties. Physiologically, that's the best time 64 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 3: for you to be having children. Yeah, and it's the 65 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 3: best for the children as well. From a physiological point 66 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 3: of view. We also know that there are fewer health 67 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 3: risks during pregnancy with younger mums. And I might just 68 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 3: also throw in there that my wife and I have 69 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 3: had children across three decades. Okay, we've had them in 70 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 3: the nineties than auties and now yeah, which is pretty crazy. 71 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 3: So I think my eldest was born when Kylie was 72 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 3: twenty one, twenty one, that's right, and I was twenty four, 73 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 3: and she's well nearly we're in the ballpark of turning 74 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 3: eighteen at the time of recording, or they're about somewhere 75 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 3: close to that. So why does being an older mum help. 76 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 3: There's a handful of reasons. It seems that older mums 77 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 3: are more likely to have more stable relationships, which is 78 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 3: an important consideration. The cohabiting phase has usually come and gone, 79 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 3: and research shows really clearly, and this is again one 80 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 3: of those contrabs. Well, it's not controversial in the data, 81 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 3: but it's not a politically correct thing to say. The 82 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 3: data shows that there's this thing that they call the 83 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 3: cohabitation effect, and what that shows is that people who 84 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 3: are in relationships where cohabitation is the way the relationship 85 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 3: works tend to have lower levels of relationship satisfaction, marital 86 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 3: satisfaction should they get married down the track, and also 87 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 3: commitment to the relationship, which means that the kids are 88 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 3: as stable as well. So having a stable married relationship 89 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 3: better for mum, it's better for data, and it's better 90 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 3: for the kids. And we've got data from across Europe, 91 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 3: the United States and Australia that supports that. So we 92 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 3: know that older mums are older mums are more stable 93 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 3: in their relationships. They've also got what you might call 94 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 3: more psychological maturity, which is really important when you're looking 95 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 3: after children. You can be more grounded, more centered, more patient, 96 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 3: more compassionate if you're more psychologically mature. And unfortunately, if 97 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 3: you look at the other extreme from an age point 98 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 3: of view, and you look at teenage mums, they and 99 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,119 Speaker 3: their children are the ones who are most at risk. 100 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 3: And a big reason for that is because of the 101 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 3: psychological immaturity. You know, they just flip out and say 102 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 3: I can't stand it anymore, and I wish I've never 103 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 3: had you, and all those kinds of things which are 104 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 3: just so devastating. Now now again, I know a couple 105 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 3: of mums who were teenagers when they became mums, and 106 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 3: they've been exemplar in mums. But we're talking about averages, 107 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 3: which is what psychological studies do. And there's this other 108 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 3: great thing called psychological flexibility. And as we get older 109 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 3: we become well, not all of us, but many of us. 110 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,599 Speaker 3: If we develop nicely, we become more psychologically flexible. Again, 111 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 3: if you're a parent, being flexible kind of matters, right, 112 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 3: So it seems that when parents have those attributes, they 113 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:16,799 Speaker 3: do better and then their kids do better. 114 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 2: So the beauty of this, when I look at it, 115 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 2: is go like all of those things, Actually, there's an 116 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 2: element of control you can have if you want to 117 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 2: grow and become more mature as a younger parent, like 118 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 2: you can start to work on that consciously. 119 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 3: Age doesn't have to be the determined factor, but those 120 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 3: things are correlated. You do become more mature as you 121 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 3: get older. 122 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: Generally, Yeah, you can. 123 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 3: Do something about it when you're fourteen, or when you're 124 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 3: twenty four, or when you're thirty four. But we need 125 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 3: to work on our maturity no matter how old we are. 126 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,239 Speaker 3: Still sometimes need to do that myself. 127 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 1: Don't we all. It is the Happy Families podcast, and 128 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: we are talking about older mums today, a bit of 129 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: a controversial topic. Talking a little bit more about this short. 130 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 5: Are you endlessly nagging, shouting, pleading, threatening and demanding that 131 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 5: your children, behave Do you live in a dictatorship where 132 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 5: the kids are in charge? Time Out is Not Your 133 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 5: Only Option is an ebook with discipline strategies and ideas 134 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 5: that work, and they work without you carrying a load 135 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 5: of parental guilt around all day. No more yelling, threatening, 136 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 5: bribing or timeouts. From day one, you'll notice the difference 137 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 5: in your children and they'll notice the difference in you. 138 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 5: Time Out is Not Your Only Option by doctor Justin Coulson, 139 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 5: available as an ebook and an audiobook at happy Families 140 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 5: dot com dot au. 141 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: It is the Happy Families podcast with doctor Justin Coulson, 142 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: Luke and Susie with you here as well today as 143 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: we talk about older mums and younger mums. 144 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 2: Okay, so you have kids when you're younger physically it's 145 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 2: better off. You have kids when you're older psychologically it's 146 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 2: better off. But that seems in a sense almost like 147 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 2: a dead end story. Then to go, well, wherever you are, 148 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 2: then that's it. What do we do if, like, let's 149 00:07:57,760 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 2: just say we're a young parent who doesn't have this 150 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 2: maturity or we're considering this, how do we change to 151 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 2: not be one of the statistics that is being paraphrased here. 152 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 3: So I'm one of the younger parents as well. Okay, 153 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 3: I was in The average age that parents are having 154 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 3: kids now is about thirty or they'reabouts give or take 155 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,239 Speaker 3: depending on which country, and lots of things, but about thirty. 156 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 3: So I was six years and my wife was nine years. 157 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 3: You know, we'd already had three or four kids by 158 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 3: the time I was thirty. I think I did okay 159 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 3: most of the time. Look, what this really comes down 160 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 3: to is can you be mature? Can you put somebody 161 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 3: else's needs first? Can you be responsive even when you 162 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 3: don't want to be? Do you have a level of 163 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 3: self control that allows you to think about what's in 164 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 3: the child's best interests and respond accordingly. These are the 165 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 3: questions that we need to ask all of ourselves, regardless 166 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 3: of our age. And again this is just a correlational study. 167 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 3: It looked at how the kids were doing at the 168 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 3: age of seven, eleven, and fifteen, and they found that, 169 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 3: on average, the kids with older parents tended to do better. 170 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 3: Doesn't mean that young parents can't have kids that can't 171 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 3: do well, doesn't mean that older parents will have kids 172 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 3: that will do well. Necessarily, just means that on average, 173 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 3: these things seem to be correlated. 174 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: I think probably what I take from it isn't that 175 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: older mums are better, But there's a lot of good stuff. 176 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: If you are an older person still waiting for that 177 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: first child, there's a lot of really good stuff in 178 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: there for you. And it's not it's not necessarily going 179 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:27,559 Speaker 1: to be difficult and hard journey. In fact, it could 180 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: be a great one for you and the child. 181 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 3: It can be. In fact, it can be regardless of 182 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 3: your age. We make such a big deal about age, 183 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 3: and this is a really interesting study to talk about, 184 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 3: but I'm just so I just want to be so 185 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 3: careful that no parent feels like, well, I can't be 186 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 3: good at this, or I'm being told that I'm no good, 187 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 3: because that couldn't be further from the truth. We get 188 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 3: this data and it says, on average, here's what we're seeing. 189 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 3: But if you want to be a great parent, you 190 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 3: pick up a good book, you start reading it, you 191 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 3: learn what you can. In fact, sometimes you don't even 192 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 3: need a book. Some times you just get down on 193 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 3: the floor, cuddle your kids. 194 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: Love your child, be attentive. 195 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 3: Give them the love that they need. And it doesn't 196 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 3: matter whether you're a teen mum or a mum who's 197 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 3: single and you know, has gone down the IVF route 198 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 3: at the age of forty five because there are no 199 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 3: other options. It really anybody can love their kids, anyone 200 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 3: can be a great mum. 201 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's quite quite an interesting thing. We had a 202 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 2: chat with a baby sleep expert. We've covered most of them, 203 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 2: and there's nothing more polarizing the world of parenting than 204 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 2: discussing one side of. 205 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 3: Like got ready for a fight, right, don't train our 206 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 3: babies to sleep? Sorry. 207 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 2: The thing that this particular experts said which really resonated 208 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 2: with me, she goes, I know, as a parent, I'm 209 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 2: going to mess up my kids in some way or another. 210 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:47,959 Speaker 2: I'm going to make mistakes. And I would rather make 211 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 2: the mistake of loving my kid a little bit too 212 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 2: much and giving a few too many cuddles than make 213 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 2: the mistake of being too harsh and strict and rigid 214 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 2: on what a routine was. And I thought, you know, like, 215 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,559 Speaker 2: there is sometimes in life where we go we get 216 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 2: a choice. If we're going to get it wrong, what 217 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 2: side of the line do we want to be wrong on? 218 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it loves a good side to be on. 219 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 3: I'll take that and if that's what the baby sleep 220 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 3: experts said, maybe we can be friends after it. 221 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: Doctor Justin Kilson from Happy Families dot com, that are you. 222 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time. I know it 223 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: was a very very touchy subject, so I appreciate it. 224 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 3: Thanks guys. 225 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: There's a whole host of resources to help you with 226 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: any area of parenting at the website happyfamilies dot com 227 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 1: dot Au, including books, steveds and a lot of online 228 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 1: resources and courses available to help you with anything you 229 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: might need. And if you were thinking doctor Justin Wilson 230 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: might be great to speak at your school or community group, 231 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 1: jump online to Justinkilson dot com to find out more.