WEBVTT - Conversations 3: Willpower 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:06.480 This podcast contains information and details relating to suicide. We 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:11.840 urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline on 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:19.040 thirteen eleven fourteen thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:22.279 lifeline dot org dot au. 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:32.879 Hello, it's Allison Sandy. Welcome to Conversations three of the 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:36.400 Trips about Amy and I am joined today. Liam is 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:40.159 away at the moment, but we have Tim Clark and 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:43.400 radio legend and author Greg Carey. 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:47.239 Welcome, Hello, Alie, Hello Tim, lovely be part of it. 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:49.040 Morning, Greg, Thanks for joining us. 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:51.519 I just wanted to give a little bit of an 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:54.120 introduction to Greg. Greg obviously helped us out with the 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:57.800 Lady Banish's case as well. He's basically an oracle I 0:00:57.920 --> 0:01:01.160 find on all these sorts of cases. He really provides 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:05.320 us with insight and just sound reasoning. And I think 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:06.840 that's one of the things. I mean, we all get 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:08.880 it what I do, and I does. 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:09.559 We get a bit. 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:13.360 Emotional sometimes with it, but you're kind of like Tom Hagen, 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:18.200 the CONSTLIERI Godfather, you know, just keep it all very practical. 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:22.200 They cut him out of Godfather three, remember I'm. 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:25.520 Still I mean, that's why Godfather three was doomed it 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:27.840 was never going to go anywhere, even though they had 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:30.040 that great line from Alpuccino about every. 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:32.640 Time I tried to get out, drag me back in. 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:36.280 And congratulations of what you've done with this podcast. I 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:41.600 think it's been magnificent, to be honest, Yeah, really really good. 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:44.199 You know, I can only comment obviously as somebody who's 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:46.560 listened to it all and really admired your work, and 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:50.440 I imagine, like everybody else's listened, just become frustrated and 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:53.280 annoyed and angered by a lot of what you've had 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:53.840 to deal with. 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:55.240 So well done. 0:01:56.440 --> 0:01:59.240 So, I mean, we can't say that this is something 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:02.120 that's iol in w A, is it. I mean w 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:06.680 A police seem to have a lot of power in 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:11.320 wa as don't do police in every state. But one 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:13.760 of the things I just thought I would just bring up, 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:18.079 just on the outset before we get into general impressions, 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:21.160 is the police commissioner. Do you know, Tim, whether the 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:25.320 police commissioner isn't it a political appointment or whether how 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:26.800 that works in w A. 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:32.480 Well, it's policing and politics. I mean they do go 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:38.120 hand in hand, don't they, Because law and order, the 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:43.120 reality of it not the TV show is always a 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:47.799 hot button political issue, and we have a state election 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:51.799 coming up here in March, so I'm sure that law 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:55.320 and order will rise to the top of the public 0:02:55.400 --> 0:03:00.240 consciousness again. But ultimately the police, it is the police 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:05.480 Commissioner who is appointed by the Police Minister, and they 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:10.600 do have to have a very close working relationship and 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:15.600 so well, when when cole Blanche was appointed, it was 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:20.239 Paul Pappollia, the Police Minister who was you know, stood 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:25.160 by his side at that appointment. But then like any 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:28.560 other police force, there are those rivulets of of of 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:33.120 pressures and and and talk and pulling points that that 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:38.360 always go through. So from my understanding, cole Blanche is 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:42.480 liked in some quarters and he isn't in others in 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:47.360 terms of the police ranks. So whether that will will 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:52.480 play out during his next appointment, because the contracts, I 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:56.640 believe go for five years, we'll we'll have to wait 0:03:56.680 --> 0:04:00.480 and see. But cole Blanche has been a very very 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:04.839 fourth right public figure. You might remember Greg even over there, Yes, 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:09.520 when that amazing morning unfolded when Cleo Smith was was 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:14.760 found alive, it was actually cole Blanche, not then commissioner, 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:18.480 but it was actually cole Blanche who did the very 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:22.200 early morning piece to camera that was then beamed around 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:26.200 the world announcing that this this this miracle had happened 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:28.120 and this girl had been found alive after all those 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:31.520 days and nights of of worry and searching. It was 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:35.000 cole Blanche that actually was you know, was was dragged 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:37.200 before a camera at four o'clock in the morning, and 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:39.599 and and and did the internal sort of colms that 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:43.680 was then sent out before Chris Dawson actually fronted a 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:45.760 media conference up in carav And that I was that 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:49.159 I was at later that day. So he's he's always 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:51.600 been very front and center of this of the since 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:55.239 Carlo Callahan resigned that the commissioner before last. He's always 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:59.520 been very front the center, very media savvy. But unfortunately, 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:02.359 al we've been told this week that he won't be 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:04.800 coming on to answer questions live unfortunately. 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:05.239 Correct. 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:07.760 Well, I love this quote, Greg that you sent by 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:13.320 Ralph Waldo Emerson that an institution is only the lengthened 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:17.920 shadow of an individual. Tell me your thoughts in relation 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:20.880 to that quote, and I guess the police commissioner. 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:23.920 Yeah, well, I think it ties in with everything Timja 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:26.320 said I read that quote of Emerson's years ago. I've 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:29.240 always loved him as a writer and a thinker. And 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:32.560 the second part of the quote is that his character, 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:36.080 meaning the leader's character, determines the character of the organization, 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:40.520 that his shadow goes over the organization. And I think 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:43.320 at a time and we see it at close quarters 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:48.000 in the media, where bureaucracies and governments, all kinds of 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:53.479 institutions are getting increasingly defensive and bureaucratic, it's really important 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:56.880 that I think that you have leaders who are forth writers, 0:05:56.880 --> 0:06:00.000 you said, Tim of the commissioner, and who were prepared 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:04.280 for their organizations to be reflective of their character. And 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:08.160 that's perhaps where we're missing good leadership in so many 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:11.480 areas right now. People are so defensive, and people are 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:16.640 so concerned about the occasional mistake that they're sometimes reluctant 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:18.520 to do the right thing. And that to me has 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:22.200 been one of the shadows, if you like, over this investigation, 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:25.960 that they seem to have been so busy to cover 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:29.960 their own bases that somehow other humanity. 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:30.640 Has got lost along the way. 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:32.200 And I know Elie quote you love, and I do, 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:35.000 and probably Tim does as well, as from Michael Cromley's 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:39.680 character Harry Bosh either everybody counts or nobody counts, and 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:42.640 somewhere along the way here, I just think Amy got 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:48.760 lost and the bureaucracy kind of took over, and that's sad. 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:52.839 And I think Greg the other thing that people have 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:55.960 spoken to me about, not necessarily by Amy's case, but 0:06:56.240 --> 0:07:00.000 in other cases, is that because the intersection of police 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:04.960 and politics are so close, there is a danger that 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:12.040 ministers police ministers as politicians can be then very reluctant 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:16.120 to be seen to be critical of police forces because 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:21.960 a they are extremely important to societies and two cabinets 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:27.440 and to governments to have a functioning, high morale police force. 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:31.240 But then you walk a fine line as a senior 0:07:31.680 --> 0:07:35.400 police minister or a politician in that if you're seen 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:37.720 to be too critical of the police, are you then, 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:41.760 whether it be on one particular case or just in general, 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:44.760 are you then seen to be undermining them and bashing 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:47.800 them and chipping away at the confidence of those at 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:51.120 the coal face who do an extraordinary difficult job. Where 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:54.520 I think we all I think we all accept, but 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:58.720 there are cases that come along inevitably that are not 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:03.800 handled the best, and it's when I find that there's 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:08.000 a reluctance to criticize or call out that is when 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:11.400 that is that is a danger because you know, every 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:15.720 organization needs to learn from their mistakes, and I think 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:19.480 in this particular case, there's been a distinct reluctance to 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:22.480 even accept mistakes were made, let alone learn from them. 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:24.720 I wonder, Elie, because you've dealt with this as well 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:27.840 on the Lady Vanishes, the Marion Barter case, and others, 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:32.280 where that defensiveness comes from. Why are they reluctant to 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:37.080 admit mistakes? Why are they afraid to concede that occasionally? 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:39.640 You know, they make errors, as we all do. It 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:42.400 doesn't matter what organization people work in. We all as 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:47.000 individuals make mistakes, and those organizations make mistakes. But maybe 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:50.040 it gets back to what Tim was saying that they 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:51.959 feel they're losing face or whatever. 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:52.280 When they do that. 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:54.439 I just think it makes them more normal, doesn't it. 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:55.200 Well? 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:57.840 Absolutely, I mean when I look at the Lady Vanishes, 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:02.079 it's kind of interesting how that transfer because it started 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:05.280 off with the police being so defensive. So the new 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:08.560 teams that were brought in with Glenn Brown, who took 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:11.800 over Missing Persons, he was like, no, they handled it 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:15.760 badly at the beginning. They didn't follow protocols and just 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:17.520 accepted it and said that this is what. 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:19.400 We're doing to manage it. 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:22.640 And in some respects WA police did that with this 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:27.000 one when the uniformed police went against the detectives, right 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:30.880 because the uniform police and so that what they actually 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:33.760 offered instead was to say, well, now we have a 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:38.400 phone number that they can call if junior police officers 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:42.280 want to argue that they don't accept the decision that 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:45.559 was made by their senior by the detectives in this case. 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:49.680 But isn't that kind of too late? And I still 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:52.280 don't think, I mean, the detectives involved with this really 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:55.240 only got to wrap over the knuckles when you look 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:59.920 at the findings of the internal investigation. So I don't know, 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:02.640 it's just like they try to keep everyone happy rather 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:05.600 than just saying, you know what, you guys stepped up here. 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:08.400 We're going to have to fix it and then move on. 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:13.080 But certainly the defense at the inquest the council representing 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:17.320 police was hell being on suicide there. So the old school, 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:21.480 I suppose, seems to still dominate in police forces now, 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:22.960 which is I think the issue. 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:24.640 You too were much closer to it. 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:28.360 But as a listener, and again I'm probably asking a 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:31.199 question the thousands who listened to it would be asking 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:32.440 why were. 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:33.880 They so fixed on that opinion? 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:37.040 I mean, I understand the early bungling and early bungling 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:40.679 can happen, but later bungling should sort that out. But 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:43.120 why were they so keen to hold on to that? 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:45.360 I would rather have thought they should have started from 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:49.559 the premise that it was a crime committed by somebody 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:54.360 else and then feed everything through that lens or that filter. 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:57.840 It seems to make a great deal more sense. And 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:01.440 fixating on this idea of suicide, what did you make 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:01.679 of that? 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:06.000 Well? In Western Australia, Greg that we've talked about this 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:09.480 on previous episodes. In the history of the of the 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:13.120 major miscarriages of justice that we've had here, there's a 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:18.040 loose theme, or sometimes it's quite tight, in that the 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:22.559 police force over here do tend to sometimes on major cases, 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:29.000 get very blinkered and have tunnel vision to just one vision. 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:32.160 We were talking just off are there about the case 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:36.840 of Lloyd's Rainey, a senior barrister, top love level prosecutor 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:40.600 for the Odpp whose wife went missing. Her body was 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:43.520 eventually found in King's Park, which is the main green 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:46.319 space in the middle of Perth, and Lloyd was accused 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:50.480 of murdering his wife because of various issues, including marital 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:53.920 problems that they were having. That was eventually disapproved in 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:56.959 the court of law. Lloyd took the police to court 0:11:57.120 --> 0:12:02.760 himself over defamation claims because one of the senior detectives 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:06.000 in the case fronted a press conference before Lloyd had 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:08.960 even been charged and said that he was the prime 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:13.240 and only suspect in this murder. Now, that could only 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:16.280 lead to one conclusion that that's all the police were 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:19.240 looking at. Right, So that's the rainy case. You've got 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:22.000 the Andrew Mallard case, which we discussed last week with 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:26.720 Liam again focused on one person. You've got the the 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:31.520 Clarmont case. For a long time, detectives on the Macro 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:35.720 Task Force were concentrated on a man called Lawnce Williams 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:38.480 who ended up being and when I say concentrated, I 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:42.400 mean years and years of surveillance on this public servant 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:45.200 who eventually turned out to be completely innocent. So there's 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:48.760 a history there, right. And then in this case, for 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:52.319 whatever reason that the two detectives that have turned up 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:59.880 have concluded suicide completely without any proper investigation, let's put 0:12:59.920 --> 0:13:03.240 it that way. And since then that has been the 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:06.040 vision that it seems to me the wa police have 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:10.920 either had to stick to because that's what they early concluded, 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:13.920 or they wanted to stick to try and keep their 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:17.480 detectives from having been proved completely wrong. So there again, 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:21.560 there's that blinkers is that tunnel vision, even though, as 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:25.640 Alison and Liam have teased out over over many many weeks, 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:28.160 through many many episodes, that there is there was so 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:31.400 much more evidence to look at, and it's a much 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:35.000 broader picture than just Amy. Amy shot herself. 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:40.000 We have the cars packed, the children are in the car, and. 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:42.480 Allison, I think in the last episode you made reference 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:46.240 to the phone call coming after the photo was taken, 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:50.880 but again the coroner seemed to place more weight on 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:54.160 that photo than the call coming after it and everything 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:57.600 else that Tim was was talking about. You know, at 0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:00.160 a time one of the things I think that annoyed me, 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:02.559 and domestic violence was something I looked at for a 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:06.319 long time, and it's great that we're talking more about 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:11.599 it at the moment, but I don't think this investigation 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:16.079 was consistent or honored the understanding of domestic violence were 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:16.720 getting these days. 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:17.959 To me, I mean, there was clearly a. 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:20.680 Background of the violence in this relationship. 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:23.600 There's a violent crime. Now. 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:25.520 I'm not making any suggestions about it. I'm just saying 0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:29.600 as a listener, it seemed to me that the investigator 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:32.440 or some of the investigators, and perhaps even the coroner 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:36.560 underestimated that aspect of the case. 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:38.200 And then when you combine it all with that. 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:45.760 Telling that extraordinary biomechanical testimony to you guys from Scott Roper, 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:49.560 I mean, that was just compelling to listen to. 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:51.360 It was really impressive stuff. 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:05.160 Well you've said it before, Alie, this scene in its 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:09.400 very early stages was never looked through the filter of 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:11.920 a violent relationship or domestic violence, was it? 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:12.360 No? 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:14.840 See, one of the things that sort of confused me too. 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:17.240 And we talk about new evidence, right, because that's the 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:20.360 whole basis of this is finding new evidence that can 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:23.360 be considered. First of all, the Office of the Director 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:26.680 of Public Prosecutions I don't believe has seen the brief 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:31.840 since twenty eighteen after those biomechanical reports come through, so 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:35.960 they haven't considered it in all that time following the 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:42.000 findings as well, because the coroner didn't refer it to 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:46.200 the DPP, so as a result they haven't seen the information. 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:50.360 And as we've also noted, even though there's new evidence, 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:54.720 Scott Rhoder's being probably the most dominant new evidence. But 0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:57.160 you know, you've also got the photo of Amy that 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:01.840 was sent to Aaron of the bruises, which the police 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:05.680 didn't find at the time, even though we were able 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:09.560 to find it within twenty minutes. Other information that just 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:14.280 wasn't didn't seem to be given numbs. I suppose the 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:16.880 priority that it should have been or at least seen 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:20.479 as important, which is the whole basis of a coronial inquest. 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:24.360 And we find though, and particularly in cases like this, 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:29.160 that the very often several inquests. So anyway, Anna has 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:31.920 written to the officer of the Director of Public Prosecutions 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:35.600 or to the Director himself, Rob Owen, asking for a meeting, 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:38.800 and I guess the question also she's asking is whether 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:41.960 he can request a copy of the brief of evidence 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:47.080 so that he can make his own analysis, because only 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:49.320 relying on the police, which of course we've asked them 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:52.720 as well, whether after they've followed up all these this 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:55.640 new information this team has been put together to do 0:16:56.720 --> 0:17:02.520 following our podcast, they'll then refer it to the Office 0:17:02.560 --> 0:17:04.639 of the Director of Public Classificitions. But I mean, I 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:07.919 guess putting it in their hands again is just the 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:11.800 fear factor that everyone has, is that well, if they 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:19.240 don't have the appetite to see this one solved necessarily, 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:21.800 which we don't know. It's just that we're just going 0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:25.919 upon all previous, previous evidence. We just need to, I 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:29.520 guess have some sort of backup that, you know, which 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:33.080 is why Anna, you know, put it to the age, 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:35.720 because I guess that's the other thing, right. 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:37.720 You know, there's supposed to be a real. 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:43.680 Separation between politics and the law, right, and we can 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:47.720 understand that, right that that's really important. But as a family, 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:50.560 if the justice system seems to be letting you down, 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:53.160 you have to go to your politicians, right who represent you, 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:56.800 because they represent the people. And that's why she's appealed 0:17:56.840 --> 0:18:00.640 to the Attorney General. And even though you General says 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:03.680 that they have that they're not allowed to direct the 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:07.360 Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. Of course, it's 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:09.320 just a case of can you just have a look 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:12.119 at this, you know, and just you don't make your 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:14.320 own determination. It's not a direction, right. 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:17.200 How hard is that Once they circle the wagons, Once 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:21.960 those institutions of power start circling the wagons, what chance 0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:25.240 does the average person have. And we see this on 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:27.479 a daily basis of people listening now will have their 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:30.920 own battles with bureaucracy in different institutions. 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:33.160 It's so very hard to the individual. 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:36.480 I think it was the Shadow Attorney General correct me 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:38.280 if I'm wrong, guys in one of your episodes, the 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:40.840 Shadow Attorney General over there, and I know what he meant. 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:44.440 He said, it's not up to the media to solve 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:49.040 these situations. And I know what he was saying. It 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:51.399 was more or less saying the police and politicians need 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:55.720 to do it. But perhaps that's to misunderstand the evolving 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:57.399 role of the media. Now, you guys are dealing with 0:18:57.440 --> 0:18:59.840 this on a day to day basis. Now, I would 0:18:59.880 --> 0:19:02.400 have thought there's enough evidence now in all the not 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:06.800 only podcasts, but other outlets as well. The media has 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:10.600 a key role in not just solving them, but helping 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:14.560 police to solve them. So again, if those authorities vested 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:20.080 with the responsibility. I'm doing that job either either can't 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:22.280 do it, don't want to do it, or require help 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:24.800 in doing it. And I would have thought there's an 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:27.920 increasing role for the media, and not only the media, 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:30.560 but to the many thousands of people podcasts like this 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:32.760 one reach, as it did in some of the other 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:33.639 famous ones. 0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:37.760 Well. As a journalist of too many years long standing, Greg, 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:41.080 You're not going to have any argument with me about 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:44.160 that point. I mean, these many cliches you can use, 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:47.600 including you know the classic one that you know, sunlight 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:51.520 is the best disinfectant, right, and you shine a light 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:54.040 on some of these cases. Well, I mean, you know, 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:57.240 just on a small scale, you see it every day 0:19:57.640 --> 0:20:00.960 talk back radio. Someone rings in, I've got an issue 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:04.040 with my local council. It can sometimes take one or 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:07.720 two calls from a radio producer and low and behold, 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:09.640 there will be a council worker on your verge doing 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:12.840 something that you've been trying to do for three months yourself. Right, 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:15.240 So it works on that micro scale, but on a 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:19.600 macro scale in this case and other cases. I mean, 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:22.280 you know, we've all seen the impact of Headley Thomas's 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:25.879 amazing work in the in the podcast Realm for the 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:30.639 last few years, and Allison's own amazing work as well. 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:35.600 The podcast has become a new vehicle, or a recent 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:40.680 vehicle to dig deeper than you can in a six hundred, 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:43.639 eight hundred and twelve hundred word article, which you know, 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:47.240 has been my main medium for the last sort of 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:50.920 thirty years or so, because it just gives you time, right, 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:58.240 and I'm finding that people connect a little bit closer 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:00.840 or a little bit deeper when they're actually listening to 0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:05.040 the people that are involved and even knowing this case 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:08.280 as I did, and then Alison asking me, you know, 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:10.879 to to help with the editorial, and then listening to 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:14.720 the first few episodes, you know, it just it just 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:17.040 brings it home in a way that that you know, 0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:22.080 unfortunately the printed medium will never do. And you turn 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:25.119 it over to the public and say, well, what do 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:27.440 you what do you think? Oh, you know, you know, well, 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:29.800 I'm looking at the signatures on the on the petition 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:33.040 that that Anna launched a few weeks ago. It's up 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:35.800 to just over seven thousand now. And we know from 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:37.960 the listenership over the last weeks and weeks and weeks 0:21:38.000 --> 0:21:41.120 there are many, many thousands of people that that I 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:44.879 think are not only listening to to Amy's story, but 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:50.280 are backing Amy's family in their in their quest for 0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:51.720 the truth because. 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:53.840 You con front of something similar, Ellie, didn't you When 0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:56.120 you were doing The Lady Vanishes? And Tim was talking 0:21:56.160 --> 0:22:00.879 about that emotional connection that radio has always it was 0:22:00.920 --> 0:22:02.560 one of the things that attracted me to it as 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:06.000 a kid. I was emotionally attached to these voices on 0:22:06.040 --> 0:22:10.880 the radio for all kinds of reasons. And podcasts now 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:14.520 have that capacity that a written police statement or a 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:18.440 bureaucratic statement, they simply don't have that kind of weight. 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:22.000 When you were doing The Lady Vanishes, it made that 0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:25.320 connection to the extent that some of your listeners actually 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:26.320 made breakthroughs. 0:22:26.680 --> 0:22:30.680 Yeah, well, we still get so many, even with this one, 0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:34.080 not to the extent of Lady Vanishes, because I think 0:22:34.200 --> 0:22:36.359 Lady Vanishes was just one of those unique ones because 0:22:36.359 --> 0:22:40.640 it was international, and so many countries and places and 0:22:40.800 --> 0:22:44.240 people are parochial by nature, right, so they sort of 0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:48.640 like to be able to relate in some way to it. 0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:52.000 Romance scams are quite a big deal, but also with 0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:54.119 this one as well, with domestic violence, and when we 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:57.560 had lots of domestic violence victims reach out to us 0:22:58.560 --> 0:23:00.920 as a result, and you want to help everyone, right, 0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:04.600 and it's so hard. And you look at the bombar 0:23:04.720 --> 0:23:09.040 our case as well in Western Australia recently, and there 0:23:09.080 --> 0:23:11.720 was another one in Northern Territory where I think the 0:23:11.800 --> 0:23:14.720 victim had made like two hundred calls or complaints to 0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:19.960 police recently and then ended up being killed. I think 0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:22.879 it's just being relatable as well and being able to 0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:25.000 help as many people as possible. Being able to relate 0:23:25.000 --> 0:23:30.879 it make it relatable. Obviously, people hate injustice. That's what 0:23:30.920 --> 0:23:35.520 we ourselves. We hate injustice, and that's like our main focus. 0:23:35.920 --> 0:23:39.680 Regardless of what you believe is the case here, there's 0:23:39.760 --> 0:23:44.520