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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just on answers Now.

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Speaker 2: So one of the things that I've always talked to

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Speaker 2: our kids when they're really really struggling with friends. I

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Speaker 2: can promise you that you are not the only person

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Speaker 2: who feels like this.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I'm trust to be the parenting expert. You're

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Speaker 3: blowing me away today.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 3: Every Tuesday on the Happy Families podcast, we dive into

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Speaker 3: our inbox podcasts at happyfamilies dot com dot au and

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Speaker 3: we carefully read your questions to see who we can

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Speaker 3: help and how when it comes to the art and

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Speaker 3: science of raising children. Hi, my name's doctor Justin Course

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Speaker 3: and I'm here with Kylie, my wife and mum to

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Speaker 3: our six daughters and Kylie. Today we have a question

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Speaker 3: that's come through from Karen, who says, my ten year

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Speaker 3: old daughter is having ongoing issues with her friends at school.

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Speaker 3: Does this sound like a ten year old girl thing?

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Speaker 2: I was just thinking, I don't think we've ever actually

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Speaker 2: not had one of our children dealing with this. It's

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Speaker 2: such a challenge.

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Speaker 3: It really is. So this is what she says, and

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Speaker 3: what I might do, because normally I read the whole

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Speaker 3: email and then we talk about it all at once.

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Speaker 3: What I'm thinking it might be easier to do with

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Speaker 3: this one is to actually sort of pull it apart

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Speaker 3: as we go, line by line and discuss different solutions

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Speaker 3: and different realities as we go. So she says she

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Speaker 3: feels her friends of being mean to her. They don't

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Speaker 3: include her in the play, they single her out, or

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Speaker 3: they say she doesn't have cool stuff. And when I

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Speaker 3: read that, I thought of all the scientific research that

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Speaker 3: shows the way that boys and girls play differently. We

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Speaker 3: know that natal males and natal females just they interact

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Speaker 3: in ways that are not the same. There's a fascinating

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Speaker 3: study that I came across just recently where some researchers

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Speaker 3: got a whole bunch of boys. There were eighty kids

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Speaker 3: in total, and a whole bunch of girls born boy

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Speaker 3: born girl, forty of each preschoolers aged four to five,

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Speaker 3: and divide them into either a boys group or a

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Speaker 3: girl's group. And then they asked them to watch a

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Speaker 3: cartoon through a viewfinder. So you remember those old fashioned

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Speaker 3: viewfinders where you put your eyes to it, then you

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Speaker 3: click the click click button, and it would take you

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Speaker 3: to the next scene and the next scene, and it

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Speaker 3: was kind of like watching a slow motion animated cartoon.

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Speaker 3: Just yeah, one of those kinds of things, Except the

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Speaker 3: way the researchers rigged this up really clever. They got

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Speaker 3: kids into groups of four. They said, only one person

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Speaker 3: can look through the viewfinder at a time, and they

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Speaker 3: need your help. So this has turned into a cooperative process.

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Speaker 3: One person had to turn the crank to make the

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Speaker 3: viewfinder work, and the other person had to press the

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Speaker 3: switch for the light and hold that down so that

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Speaker 3: it would work. Okay, So it was this really technologically

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Speaker 3: complicated thing that needed a whole lot of manipulation. You've

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Speaker 3: got one kid watching, one kid cranking the thing, and

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Speaker 3: one kid pushing the switch for the light, all at

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Speaker 3: opposite ends of the room of it. Hang on, there's

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Speaker 3: four kids in the group. You know what. The fourth

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Speaker 3: kid had to do nothing. They had to hang and

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Speaker 3: wait for their turn to do something. And each of

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Speaker 3: the four kids was going to get a chance at

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Speaker 3: doing everything. But their preschoolers, they're four and five years old,

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Speaker 3: and they've got to figure out how they're going to

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Speaker 3: do it together. How they're going to cooperate so that

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Speaker 3: everyone gets to turn. And what the research has found

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Speaker 3: was that overall, the boys enjoyed it more than the girls.

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Speaker 3: Just measuring how the kids were enjoying the process, boys

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Speaker 3: had a lot more fun. They laughed more, they smiled more,

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Speaker 3: and get this, they hit each other more. So they're

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Speaker 3: having more fun. They're laughing and they're smiling, and they're

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Speaker 3: hitting each other more because they want to be the

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Speaker 3: one that gets to watch it now or the one

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Speaker 3: who gets to watch it next. In other words, they

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Speaker 3: use their bodies a whole lot more than the girls.

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Speaker 3: In fact, researchers found that the boys pushed, pulled, or

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Speaker 3: hit their partners about six times more than the girls did. Right, Like,

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Speaker 3: this is a really physical interaction, but they had more fun.

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Speaker 3: The girls were no less competitive, they were just a

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Speaker 3: lot less direct. The girls made many more unfriendly commands,

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Speaker 3: and they were also much more likely to be collaborative

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Speaker 3: and share, whereas the boys weren't collaborative and sharing. It

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Speaker 3: was kind of just a competition, like who' I got

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Speaker 3: to destroy to get to do this thing? So well,

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Speaker 3: the boys used their bodies, the girls used their words,

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Speaker 3: and there's all this research that's been around for so

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Speaker 3: long that shows this relational versus physical, male versus felt

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Speaker 3: sorry female versus male thing. And that's what I get

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Speaker 3: when I read this email, this first line. Her friends

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Speaker 3: mean to it. They don't include her in the play,

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Speaker 3: they single her out, they say she doesn't have cool stuff.

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Speaker 3: I mean, this is all status and hierarchy and relationships

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Speaker 3: and consider.

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Speaker 2: Start breaking me think that, oh ten, well, I mean

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Speaker 2: we're already dealing with this.

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Speaker 3: Research shows that starts at four and five. Yet by ten,

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Speaker 3: this is where the comparison and the competition really starts

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Speaker 3: to ramp up as we lead into puberty. So Karen says,

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Speaker 3: my daughter has a sensitive soul, so everything seems to

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Speaker 3: hurt her. And I've noticed she gives her friends too

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Speaker 3: much value. Now I don't know about you, but I

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Speaker 3: read that line and I thought, oh, my goodness. Friends

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Speaker 3: are oxygen to all of our kids, but especially to

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Speaker 3: our girls, and this idea of giving them value. I

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Speaker 3: just how hard is it for even for us as

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Speaker 3: adults to feel like we're enough. How hard is it

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Speaker 3: for a ten year old who's just discovering competition in comparison,

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Speaker 3: how they're supposed to know themselves and know their value

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Speaker 3: on their own, they just give all their value away.

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Speaker 3: They empower everyone else to allow them to feel things

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Speaker 3: like that.

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Speaker 2: So and that's when I think the village is so important,

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Speaker 2: you know, surrounding our kids with people who just love them,

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Speaker 2: absolutely love them, and help them to see the contrast

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Speaker 2: as they go throughout their day. You know, how do

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Speaker 2: you feel like when you're in this space with these people,

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Speaker 2: how do they make you feel comparatively to how these

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Speaker 2: people are making you feel. It was interesting. We had

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Speaker 2: a group of girls in our home at one point,

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Speaker 2: and I was blown away at the amount of manipulation

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Speaker 2: I was witnessing by one girl in particular. My daughter

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Speaker 2: was oblivious. Our daughter was oblivious, speaking just she was

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Speaker 2: completely oblivious to it. I had never seen it in

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Speaker 2: such like, just absolute vivid contrast to everyday conversations. And

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Speaker 2: we talked about it the next day and I asked

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Speaker 2: her if she noticed anything, because it was a really

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Speaker 2: emotionally challenging activity to have them all there, and she said, no, no,

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Speaker 2: it's not like that anyway. Over the next few months

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Speaker 2: she started to kind of open her eyes and see

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Speaker 2: things in a slightly different way and she recognized over

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Speaker 2: time that these people actually didn't make her feel good.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, Do I get to be myself when I'm

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Speaker 3: around these people or do I have to keep on

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Speaker 3: trying to prove that I'm one of them.

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Speaker 2: Implicate somebody else's feelings to be able to be a

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Speaker 2: part of it and feel like you're a part of

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Speaker 2: the whole. So I think that one of the things

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Speaker 2: that I have found just so empowering for our kids

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Speaker 2: is just really working on the village outside of school

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Speaker 2: and surrounding them with people who just can love on them.

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Speaker 3: Whether it's the local surf club or the sporting groupol neighbor, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: the neighbors.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, our nine year old has fallen in love with

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Speaker 2: our neighbors. They're in their seventies, but to her, they're

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Speaker 2: like her best friends. And when she disappears, I said,

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Speaker 2: where have you been? I was just going to visit

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Speaker 2: Diane and Chris, And she goes and plays with the

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Speaker 2: cat and the dog and gets a little tree to

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Speaker 2: She just thinks it's the best.

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Speaker 3: So let's move on with bo Karen also had to say,

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Speaker 3: she said, we've just moved location six months ago, and

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Speaker 3: the excitement of the new school has now died and

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Speaker 3: the issues are building up. She doesn't want to go

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Speaker 3: to school now. She had similar issues in the old school.

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Speaker 3: So now I know the problem lies with my daughter.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's tricky, Well I read that.

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Speaker 3: I think that we need to challenge that assumption.

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Speaker 2: I agree because we think that because we've been in

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Speaker 2: one place for six months, that the effects of the

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Speaker 2: move have well and truly passed now. And yet, just

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Speaker 2: like she's acknowledged the you know, the glitter and the

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Speaker 2: sparkle of the new school and everything has started to

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Speaker 2: wear off, and you're no longer the novelty in the

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Speaker 2: room because you're no longer than new kids. Somebody else

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Speaker 2: has taken your place.

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Speaker 3: If the relationships haven't cemented, they're not even close. It

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Speaker 3: takes years sometimes, Yeah, sometimes things really do just click,

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Speaker 3: but quite often it takes a really long time for

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Speaker 3: these relationships too. When I heard that, I just thought,

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Speaker 3: when we say something like so, I now know the

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Speaker 3: problem was with my daughter, what we're unintentionally doing is

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Speaker 3: inferring that our child is the problem, and the child

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Speaker 3: is not the problem. The child is never the problem. Rather,

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Speaker 3: there is a problem to be solved, and our child

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Speaker 3: needs to be part of the problem solving process.

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Speaker 2: But nor are the other children?

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Speaker 3: Right, Oh, of course, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: We can acknowledge that our child's the problem or they're

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Speaker 2: the problem, but the reality is neither are. Yeah, we've

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Speaker 2: got a situation where we've got two kids trying to

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Speaker 2: navigate or more kids trying to navigate a really tricky

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Speaker 2: situation and space and time. They don't have the maturity,

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Speaker 2: they don't have the understanding half the time, and so

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Speaker 2: neither one of them the problem.

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Speaker 3: So as we've worked through this email from Karen, we've

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Speaker 3: already provided a handful of ideas and solutions, But what

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Speaker 3: we need to talk about is the last thing that

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Speaker 3: she's mentioned, because this is where we really dive into

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Speaker 3: the solution frame. Karen says, how do I support her?

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Speaker 3: I follow you tips, I provide a loving home so

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Speaker 3: she feels she belongs. I listen. I don't try to fix,

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Speaker 3: although sometimes I still try to. By telling you to

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Speaker 3: find new friends, how do I help her to build

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Speaker 3: her resilience and to learn that friends are not everything,

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Speaker 3: especially if they don't bring joy. Let's talk about how

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Speaker 3: we can help our kids if they're struggling with friendships.

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Speaker 3: When I talk to teachers in schools and I say,

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Speaker 3: what are some of the most common challenges that you're

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Speaker 3: dealing with? Friendships are at the top of the list

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Speaker 3: all the time, and particularly when it comes to girls.

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Speaker 3: I've got a couple of things jotted down that I

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Speaker 3: think can be useful solutions to help Karen and her

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Speaker 3: ten year old daughter and any parent whose children are

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Speaker 3: struggling with friendship issues. We've dealt with this endlessly, ongoingly

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Speaker 3: with all of our six daughters at one point or

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Speaker 3: another as they've struggled with friendships.

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Speaker 2: Our kids need to know they have options. They need

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Speaker 2: to know that they actually have a level of autonomy

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Speaker 2: and control over what's going on.

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Speaker 3: I love this. I've been in so many conversations where

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Speaker 3: I've gone to that very word optionality equals resilience. Like

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Speaker 3: when you feel like you have no options, that's where

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Speaker 3: helplessness comes in. That's where hopelessness comes in. But if

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Speaker 3: you're in a situation that feels helpless and hopeless and

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Speaker 3: then you discover, hang on, I do have an option

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Speaker 3: all of a sudden, that's where you see. That's what

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Speaker 3: resilience is. It's about saying I have no pathways, I'll

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Speaker 3: hang on. I can create one. I can knock down

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Speaker 3: these trees over here and smash through. I know that's

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Speaker 3: not environmentally friendly, but I can knock down these trees

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Speaker 3: and blaze my own trail. That's resilience, it's having I

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Speaker 3: just I love that you said that, and I love

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Speaker 3: how clear you were on it. Optionality is key, and

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Speaker 3: this is what happens with the ten year old who

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Speaker 3: feels like they have no friends, or too often they

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Speaker 3: feel like they have no options.

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Speaker 2: What's amazing is that they're surrounded by people, but all

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Speaker 2: they can see is the one or two or three

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Speaker 2: or four people in their friend group that they want

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Speaker 2: to be friends with at all costs.

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Speaker 3: You know, I've just had an insight and you've this.

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Speaker 3: It was not pre planned. It's literally just crashed into

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Speaker 3: my head right now. I've never pretended that high school

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Speaker 3: was a good experience for me. It was awful. And

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Speaker 3: one of the main reasons that it was awful was

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Speaker 3: I felt like I didn't have any friends. As I've

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Speaker 3: reflected on this, and I've had this thought a few times,

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Speaker 3: but never so clearly, is in the context that you've

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Speaker 3: just provided it. My biggest problem when I was in

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Speaker 3: high school was I wanted to be one of the

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Speaker 3: cool kids, and I desperately sought the cool kids' approval,

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Speaker 3: and I never ever got it because they knew that

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Speaker 3: I so badly wanted to be one of them, and

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Speaker 3: they knew that therefore they could treat me however they wanted,

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Speaker 3: and I was never going to be one of them.

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Speaker 3: But there were other people who I'm sure I could

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Speaker 3: have been friends with, but I never wanted to be

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Speaker 3: their friend. I just wanted to be a cool kid.

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Speaker 3: Now I'm not saying that's what's happening with this ten

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Speaker 3: year old, but we have blinded. I was not open

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Speaker 3: to the option of being friends with anyone else I

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Speaker 3: had to be friends with. I'm not going to mention

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Speaker 3: their names, but because who knows, maybe they listened to

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Speaker 3: Happy Family podcast today. But I just had to be

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Speaker 3: friends with them, and they didn't want to be friends

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Speaker 3: with me, and I couldn't see any other option. I mean,

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Speaker 3: it was just tragic.

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Speaker 2: So one of the things that I've always talked to

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Speaker 2: our kids when they're really really struggling with friends, I

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Speaker 2: can promise you that you are not the only person

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Speaker 2: who feels like this.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, so Mike, I'm sposed to be the parenting expert.

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Speaker 3: You're blowing me away today.

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Speaker 2: This is a challenge to them is to go and

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Speaker 2: find somebody who's sitting on their own. Yeah, someone who

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Speaker 2: doesn't have friends. And there will be plenty of kids

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Speaker 2: in your school playground who are sitting on their own,

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Speaker 2: who don't have anyone to hang out with. The challenge

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Speaker 2: we have is that they again have the blinders and

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Speaker 2: they just want to be I.

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Speaker 3: Want to be friends with them, yeah yeah, yeah. And

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Speaker 3: just on that optionality as well, something else that we've

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Speaker 3: got pretty good science around. You were talking before about

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Speaker 3: wanting to be in control. Kids don't want to hear

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Speaker 3: our options. So if I've got a child who's really struggling,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to sit down and I'm going to have

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Speaker 3: a conversation with them that says, I know you're struggling.

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Speaker 3: What options do you see?

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Speaker 2: Well, that was the next thing on my list. So

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Speaker 2: when we talk to our kids in this situation, I

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Speaker 2: think the most important thing for them to know is

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Speaker 2: that every option is on the table. We'll talk about

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Speaker 2: it all. You want to move schools, let's talk about it.

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Speaker 3: We've done that with our children. In a number of

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Speaker 3: times we've said to them, are you where you need

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Speaker 3: to be? Is this the right school? Now? We didn't

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Speaker 3: want to move them, but we decided that we were

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Speaker 3: going to let them make the call. And pretty much

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Speaker 3: every time they've said no, no, no, I need to stay

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Speaker 3: here because if I go somewhere else.

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Speaker 2: They've acknowledged that it's not necessarily going to be any better. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and that this is a situation that they just need

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Speaker 2: to work through. But because we've given them that option,

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Speaker 2: they feel heard, they feel validated, and they're able to

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Speaker 2: actually open up to other possibilities.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because they sort of go, yeah, a moving school

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Speaker 3: isn't going to work. I need to stay here. It's

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Speaker 3: a really really powerful thing. So giving them, giving them

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Speaker 3: the opportunity to develop their own options, and also when

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Speaker 3: I don't have any saying okay, well that's fine, I

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Speaker 3: can think of a couple would you like to play

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Speaker 3: around with those ideas and be okay with them saying

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Speaker 3: I don't like that idea when you share it with them.

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Speaker 2: Like, they don't have to take any of your ideas. No,

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Speaker 2: But it's about recognizing that there are options. Now, let's

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Speaker 2: talk through through them.

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Speaker 3: They're much more likely to hear your options though, once

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Speaker 3: you've given them a chance to share all of their

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Speaker 3: options with you, Like once they've said I've got this option,

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Speaker 3: this option, and this option. Now I'm out of options,

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Speaker 3: they're much more likely to listen to your options and say, hmm,

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Speaker 3: there's an idea, or they might say no because they

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Speaker 3: feel helpless and hopeless. But there are all kinds of

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Speaker 3: other things that are available.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so most schools will have lunchtime clubs, activities in

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Speaker 2: the library, you know, different things that your children can

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Speaker 2: get involved in that don't necessarily fit the mold, and

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Speaker 2: very often our kids don't see them as options because

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Speaker 2: their friends aren't going there all.

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Speaker 3: The people that they want to be friends with. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Karen's wish for her child is that she will find joy.

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Speaker 2: And if as parents, we can help our children recognize

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Speaker 2: joy in their relationships, they'll be better able to find that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay. A couple of other ideas. We have contacted

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Speaker 3: teachers in the past with our children's permission and ask

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Speaker 3: the teacher to send an email around of parents just

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Speaker 3: saying we have somebody who moved into the school. A

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Speaker 3: couple of months ago, they've got a child who's still

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Speaker 3: having a few struggles. Ten year old girl, ten year

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Speaker 3: old boy, whatever it is. If you have a child

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Speaker 3: who you think would be willing to have a playdate

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Speaker 3: on the weekend or go down to the park or

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Speaker 3: with ask the kids.

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Speaker 2: Who do you want to be friends with? You're not

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Speaker 2: obviously friends with them at the moment, who would you

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Speaker 2: like to be friends with? Why don't we have them

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Speaker 2: over for an afternoon?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's a lot easier with younger kids than

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Speaker 3: older kids, But as parents, we can get to know

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Speaker 3: the other families in our kids' classrooms and that can

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Speaker 3: really help the kids to develop relationships there as well.

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Speaker 3: I think the main thing that I would also emphasize

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Speaker 3: is that avoidance reinforces anxiety. So if you've got a

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Speaker 3: child who is struggling with friendships and starting to say,

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Speaker 3: I don't want to go to school, I hate being

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Speaker 3: at school, I don't feel comfortable at school, it's really

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Speaker 3: important that we encourage them to go to school, because otherwise,

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Speaker 3: when we let them have the day off and then

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Speaker 3: the next day off and then the week off, it

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Speaker 3: feels so affirming, it feels so safe, it feels so

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Speaker 3: nice to not have to go to school that the

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Speaker 3: next time they have to go, it builds even more,

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Speaker 3: it gets even stronger. It's like that Amigdala goes into

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Speaker 3: massive override and the only way it can be released

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Speaker 3: is to be told I don't have to go, which

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Speaker 3: reinforces the cycle for the next time around. So it's

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Speaker 3: really important. While it's okay for kids to have a

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Speaker 3: mental health day now and then, it's really important that

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Speaker 3: our kids are working through these hard things and finding

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Speaker 3: solutions with a problem, solving in and finding options.

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Speaker 2: I think the last thing I'd say is, if this

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Speaker 2: is a real struggle, including your child's teacher in this

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Speaker 2: process is really important. There have been times where it

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Speaker 2: has been acknowledged that this is an ongoing issue for

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Speaker 2: a lot of kids in the class, and so as

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Speaker 2: a cohort they have actually dealt with friendship challenges in

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Speaker 2: a really proactive way without singling out specific children. But also,

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Speaker 2: your teacher is going to see your child in a

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Speaker 2: totally different light and be able to sometimes.

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Speaker 3: Well, hopefully they'll have a whole lot more empathy and

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Speaker 3: love and gentleness for that kid and give them some

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Speaker 3: more support.

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Speaker 2: No, but sometimes they can also kind of add to

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Speaker 2: the picture as well and share things that you are

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Speaker 2: not aware of that would be helpful.

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Speaker 3: Podcasts at happy families dot com. You that's podcasts with

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Speaker 3: an ess at happy families dot com dot you if

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Speaker 3: you would like us to help you with one of

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Speaker 3: those parenting problems that are perplexing you, Karen, We really

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Speaker 3: hope that this has been a helpful response to your

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Speaker 3: email and that it helps you with your ten year old.

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Speaker 3: The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from

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Speaker 3: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer and for

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Speaker 3: more about making your family happy, you can visit us

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Speaker 3: at happy families dot com dot you