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Speaker 1: This is The Happy Family's podcast today. My name is

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Speaker 1: doctor Justin Coulson. Really excited to have this conversation today

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Speaker 1: on the pod. A couple of weeks ago, Lanor Scanazzi,

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Speaker 1: the World's Worst Mum, we had her on the podcast

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Speaker 1: talking about her most recent ted talk about why we

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Speaker 1: should spend less time with the kids. But when we

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Speaker 1: were talking, Lena told me that I absolutely had to

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Speaker 1: talk to this guest, and she was right. Chris Bam

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Speaker 1: has cracked the code on what tweens and teens actually

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Speaker 1: need to thrive, and he's got a brand new book

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Speaker 1: that puts adventure back into adolescents and pre adolescents. It's

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Speaker 1: called Challenge Accepted. It's all about giving kids real challenges

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Speaker 1: that build confidence and creativity. If you know Lenoscanazzi and

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Speaker 1: Free Range Kids, you'll know why she was so excited

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Speaker 1: about Chris and his book. And if you've got a

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Speaker 1: child who is in what they would call middle school

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Speaker 1: everywhere in the world except Australia, that is, we're talking

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Speaker 1: about our tweens and early teen kids, kids that sort

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Speaker 1: of seem, I don't know, glue to their screens, stuck

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Speaker 1: in their comfort zone, and you're wondering how to help

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Speaker 1: them discover what they're truly capable of, especially with the

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Speaker 1: social media minNum age legislation coming in the next couple

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Speaker 1: of weeks. You need to hear this conversation. Stay with us.

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Speaker 1: This is the Happy Families Podcast, Real Parenting Solutions, every

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Speaker 1: day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. My name stops

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Speaker 1: to Justin Coilson, and today I'm joined by Chris Barham.

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Speaker 1: Chris is an education innovator. He has founded two schools

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Speaker 1: dedicated to helping young people to discover therefore potentially currently

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Speaker 1: serves as co Prin's bullet at Hercuber. I don't speak Japanese, Chris,

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Speaker 1: If I got that right, Harkuber International School in Japan.

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Speaker 2: How do you say it? How? Hakuba?

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Speaker 1: So sorry, and is also the founder and director of Argonnault,

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Speaker 1: an online advisory program for middle schoolers worldwide. Chris, before

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Speaker 1: I bring you in a little bit more about you,

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Speaker 1: because I think people should know just how accomplished you

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Speaker 1: are and why this conversation matters. Chris co founded Millennium School.

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Speaker 1: It's a pioneering lab school in San from just Go

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Speaker 1: and has been recognized as a Shoker Fellow, did I

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Speaker 1: say a choker correctly?

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Speaker 2: Again?

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Speaker 1: Beautiful for his change making work in education. First book

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Speaker 1: was Fighting the Magic in Middle School. That was Best

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Speaker 1: Sller a couple of years ago. Latest book, Challenge Accepted,

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Speaker 1: written directly for your kids.

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Speaker 2: And I know some people say, oh, my kids are

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Speaker 2: going to read a book.

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Speaker 1: This one is designed in such way that kids can

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Speaker 1: actually read it because the chapters are short. Hello, short

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Speaker 1: form content packed with adventures that are going to help

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Speaker 1: middle schoolers unlock their creativity and confidence during what I

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Speaker 1: think is some vital, foundational, important years. Chris Long intro.

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Speaker 1: Pleasure to have you on the podcast. Thanks for staying

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Speaker 1: up until all hours in California to have this discussion

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Speaker 1: with me today.

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Speaker 2: Welcome, great to be with you justin Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: So a softball question straight up, but let's talk about

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Speaker 1: the book Challenge Accepted. Describe why you've written a book

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Speaker 1: for kids, because the reality is data, unfortunately is telling

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Speaker 1: us that kids aren't reading books nearly to the degree

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Speaker 1: that they once did. And yet this is a children's

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Speaker 1: activity book four tweens and kids in their early teens.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, thank you for the question. Big picture, I

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Speaker 2: mean there are two times in the human life span

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Speaker 2: where our brains are growing the fastest, early childhood and

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Speaker 2: early adolescence. This is where it's at zero to five

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Speaker 2: and eleven to sixteen. But the big difference and the

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Speaker 2: reason both of these books came about is the zero

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Speaker 2: to five years. We have all of these resources. As

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Speaker 2: new parents. We get maps, we figure out the developmental stages,

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Speaker 2: and that way we don't take it personally. When our

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Speaker 2: two year olds starts saying no to everything, you know,

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Speaker 2: we see it coming. But fast forward to the eleven

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Speaker 2: to sixteen year range, the next big phase, when brains

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Speaker 2: are growing fast and you've got to work hard to

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Speaker 2: keep up with your kid, we don't get those maps,

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Speaker 2: and parents, instead of knowing, oh, I can see exactly

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Speaker 2: what's coming, we get caught off guard. We take it personally.

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Speaker 2: We think something's wrong with us or wrong with our kid.

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Speaker 2: So I wrote the first book to guide the parents

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Speaker 2: and teachers to understand developmentally what's happening in the eleven

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Speaker 2: to sixteen year range. And then the second book is

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Speaker 2: so kids can just go and do it and take

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Speaker 2: things into their own hands, feel like they're authors of

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Speaker 2: their own story. The catches as you said, if a

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Speaker 2: parent hands you this book and says you got to

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Speaker 2: do this, that is not a good beginning. So what

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Speaker 2: I always recommend to parents is, just like you mate

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Speaker 2: with a health or sexuality book, you kind of leave

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Speaker 2: it available. Make it something that your kid can find

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Speaker 2: to get some good resources when they need it, not

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Speaker 2: as a demand from you the parents.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, what's this book that's been sitting on the

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Speaker 1: kitchen bench for the last three weeks?

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Speaker 2: Baby?

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Speaker 1: You want to exactly right. I want to spend a

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Speaker 1: second talking about these challenges because these are the kinds

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Speaker 1: of things that once upon a time, and I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about your generation, my generation, we just did this stuff.

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Speaker 1: Like I remember so challenge number for challenge accepted. That's

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Speaker 1: the title of the book, Challenge number nine Open a

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Speaker 1: bank account. I remember sneaking down to the shops when

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Speaker 1: I was like, I don't know, thirteen or fourteen years old.

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Speaker 1: I'd just gotten one of my first ever. I was

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Speaker 1: probably a bit too young to be getting the job,

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Speaker 1: but they gave it to me anyway. I was pushing

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Speaker 1: trolley's as we call them in Australia shopping cars in

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Speaker 1: the United States around a car park and I wanted

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Speaker 1: to have my own money. I didn't want my parents

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Speaker 1: to know about my money, and I felt so independent

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Speaker 1: to walk into the bank doesn't exist anymore. But I

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Speaker 1: went to the Advance bank and I set up my

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Speaker 1: bank account and I got my own little card that

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Speaker 1: went with it. It wasn't a credit card because I didn't

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Speaker 1: give those kids.

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Speaker 2: I remember just feeling so big, like Tom Hanks big.

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Speaker 1: I felt like I was a grown up because I

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Speaker 1: had my own bank account that I had opened on

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Speaker 1: my own with my own money, and the paycheck was

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Speaker 1: going to go in there, and my parents wouldn't know

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Speaker 1: about it, which meant that I could buy whatever I wanted.

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Speaker 1: And it felt so It just felt so big. It

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Speaker 1: was so enlarging for me. Talk more about the challenges

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Speaker 1: and what else is in there and why that's it? Well.

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Speaker 2: I had very similar experience. First job at thirteen, worked

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Speaker 2: in a retail sharp terrified of my boss. Thought this

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Speaker 2: was the most powerful being it ever in Calgary. And

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Speaker 2: I will never forget the day, probably six months in

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Speaker 2: where she allowed me to run the shop while she

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Speaker 2: went to run an Errand's, and I swear I was

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Speaker 2: a foot taller at the end of that day. Just

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Speaker 2: that kind of validation from an objective adult who was

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Speaker 2: actually paying me that I could handle something like that

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Speaker 2: meant more to me than every grade I got in

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Speaker 2: school that whole year. And I think that is the

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Speaker 2: psychology that adolescents have, that they they know that their

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Speaker 2: parents and teachers are subjective, and they want to get

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Speaker 2: out there into the real world where there's objectivity, where

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Speaker 2: they can earn something literally maybe money in other ways

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Speaker 2: as well, that shows what they're worth. That helps them

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Speaker 2: internalize a sense of value. So that's what the book

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Speaker 2: is all about. Whether it's you know, starting a business.

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Speaker 2: I was thinking of some students of mine who started

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Speaker 2: a student cafe at a school, invested in you know,

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Speaker 2: industrial toasters and things like that, and at the time

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Speaker 2: of their life figuring out how to make money, or

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Speaker 2: all kinds of other things. Kids who do their first

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Speaker 2: camping trip, who you know, recently, my own daughter is

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Speaker 2: taking on the challenge to create a time capsule with

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Speaker 2: their friend and they're finding all their kind of favorite

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Speaker 2: items that represent this era and they're burying them in

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Speaker 2: the backyard in a box. I think the idea is,

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Speaker 2: you know, this generation of kids, for whatever reason, we

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Speaker 2: can guess about it has had less autonomy, and for

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Speaker 2: various reasons, they've been in more structured activities. We need

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Speaker 2: to get them out into the world. There's even research

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Speaker 2: and Lenora and others are on top of this showing

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Speaker 2: that without autonomy, we have higher rates of anxiety and

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Speaker 2: depression in our teenage years. So they've got to get

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Speaker 2: out there. And this is a book that gives hopefully

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Speaker 2: fifty good ideas, one of which we'll catch them to

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Speaker 2: get them out there.

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Speaker 1: So one of the challenges in the book, and this

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Speaker 1: is the last one that we'll talking about before we

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Speaker 1: step into some other content, but number twenty one become

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Speaker 1: a babysitter. Become a babysitter. As you're talking about that,

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Speaker 1: it just it reminds me that just recently somebody asked

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Speaker 1: if we needed to get a babysitter for one of

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Speaker 1: our kids because we were going to go and do something.

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Speaker 1: And I thought to myself, it's so funny because this

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Speaker 1: child at the age of fifteen. Once upon a time,

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Speaker 1: it was the fourteen and fifteen year olds who are

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Speaker 1: doing the babysitting. But now people are expecting that because

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Speaker 1: I'm leaving my fifteen year old behind.

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Speaker 2: She needs to be babysat. Like this shift is in

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Speaker 2: the name.

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Speaker 1: That's right, baby sitting, that's right.

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Speaker 2: So the book is very much about helping kids to

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Speaker 2: grow up right, that's it, and to realize that they

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Speaker 2: can be the author of their own stories. So I

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Speaker 2: think whenever you see an adolescent who's kind of rolling

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Speaker 2: their eyes and being too cool for school, I think

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Speaker 2: that's not natural. That's a kid who feels thwarted. They

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Speaker 2: can't go out there and work on themselves and do

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Speaker 2: the things that they're driven to do, like to contribute,

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Speaker 2: to connect, to figure out who they really are. So

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Speaker 2: they're just rolling their eyes because they're waiting until we

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Speaker 2: get out of their way. In many ways, So the

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Speaker 2: idea of this is, these are ways where you feel

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Speaker 2: more in control of your own story. You can become

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Speaker 2: a babysitter, you can figure out how to go camping,

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Speaker 2: start a business, etc.

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Speaker 1: Chris Barmer is the author of Challenge Accepted after the

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Speaker 1: Break as a high school principle. I'm going to ask

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Speaker 1: Chris what he's seeing parents doing right and wrong when

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Speaker 1: it comes to helping kids to discover their strengths and

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Speaker 1: build their confidence and resilience. Plus the difference between a

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Speaker 1: good challenge and one that just stresses kids out.

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Speaker 2: Stay with us.

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Speaker 1: This is the Happy Families Podcast. Chris Barm, the author

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Speaker 1: of Challenge Accepted, is with me on the pod today. Chris,

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Speaker 1: you're the principle of a high school, You've founded a

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Speaker 1: couple of high schools, You've been in education all your life.

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Speaker 1: When you think about what parents are doing in the

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Speaker 1: way that they're engaging with children, We've talked a lot

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Speaker 1: about autonomy. What are the things what are the biggest

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Speaker 1: mistakes that parents are making when it comes to kids

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Speaker 1: and resilience, and what are the things that we are

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Speaker 1: actually getting right? Because I don't want this to be

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Speaker 1: a big be up on parents. It's a challenging world

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Speaker 1: at challenging time to rise kids.

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Speaker 2: Oh it is, for sure. I mean, I'll start with

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Speaker 2: the positive. I think something that parents are getting more

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Speaker 2: and more right is understanding that we have different brains,

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Speaker 2: that there is not one kind of brain that should

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Speaker 2: fit perfectly like a glove into school. You know. Neurodiversity

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Speaker 2: is something that used to be barely understood and it's

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Speaker 2: it's still there's a long way to go, but I

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Speaker 2: think modern parents have a lot more nuanced understanding and

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Speaker 2: if your kid has ADHD or is on the spectrum,

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Speaker 2: you know that's possible. We can work with that. It's

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Speaker 2: something that parents aren't as afraid of, I think as

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Speaker 2: maybe a past generation. On the flip side, I think

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Speaker 2: that I think parents struggle with you know, I'm a

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Speaker 2: parent of three. I think that we hold a lot

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Speaker 2: of fear and we're frequently overwhelmed. Our to do list

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Speaker 2: is ridiculously long. We don't have time to reflect, and

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Speaker 2: in that fearful, reactive place, we don't give our kids

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Speaker 2: enough trust and autonomy. We think that the world is scary.

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Speaker 2: We're taking care of them by putting in them and

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Speaker 2: structured activities or being baby sad at fifteen, as you said,

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Speaker 2: And that comes from love without a doubt, but it

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Speaker 2: has some unfortunate side effects that if kids don't get

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Speaker 2: out there, they don't discover a sense of value, they

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Speaker 2: don't get to mess up when they're young enough that

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Speaker 2: those mess ups aren't that big of a deal in

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Speaker 2: the big picture. That's the point where they can develop

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Speaker 2: confidence in the sense that they can keep tinkering towards

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Speaker 2: something good. So there's some work to be done in

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Speaker 2: that sense.

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Speaker 1: I have been quite provocative this year and have said

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Speaker 1: this more times than I can count, that our children

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Speaker 1: should be allowed to do at least one activity every

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Speaker 1: week that could, if it went wrong, land them in hospital.

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Speaker 2: Most people, when I say that are aghast.

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Speaker 1: They're like, oh, what are you saying?

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Speaker 2: How can you say that?

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Speaker 1: And yet and I've got a couple of kids who

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Speaker 1: have ended up in hospital this year because of the

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Speaker 1: activities that they've participated in. Incidentally, do you think that

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Speaker 1: those kids have said, well, I'll never do that again,

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Speaker 1: Like they just don't go back at it.

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Speaker 2: They're back at it.

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Speaker 1: They're like, Okay, opportunity for progress, mastery.

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Speaker 2: I love the activity. That's why I was doing in

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Speaker 2: the first place.

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Speaker 1: And I'm looking at your challenge accepted. I'm thinking about

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Speaker 1: the conversations I'm having with you and Leonora and people

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Speaker 1: like that, and just thinking we can actually trust our

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Speaker 1: children's intrinsic growth tendencies. Right, Like, children are born resilient,

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Speaker 1: and if they stop being resilient, it's often because we.

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Speaker 2: Knock it out of them.

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Speaker 1: Something that I've been playing around with lately in my

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Speaker 1: own mind is that resilience often doesn't feel resilient, and

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Speaker 1: I wonder I wonder if, as you consider the challenges

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Speaker 1: that are in your book and the experiences that you've

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Speaker 1: had with students and families that you've spoken to and

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Speaker 1: people who have done these challenges, can you share an

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Speaker 1: example of somebody who took on a challenge and really

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Speaker 1: struggled with it, maybe it didn't even work out, and

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Speaker 1: yet the activity ended up being worthwhile the challenge being

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Speaker 1: accepted was exactly what needed to happen.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely just for us to what you said before. I

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Speaker 2: love what you said about trust. I think when we

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Speaker 2: don't trust our young children, they don't trust themselves, and

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Speaker 2: when we don't trust our adolescent children, they don't trust

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Speaker 2: us that they then feel resentful that they're not being

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Speaker 2: taken seriously brilliant. Yeah, sure there's something there, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: oh so many stories of these challenges going in all

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Speaker 2: kinds of directions. When there's a student who was determined

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Speaker 2: to take on the challenge to stick out in a group.

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Speaker 2: This is one that I think is especially risky for

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Speaker 2: early adolescents, where sticking out just feels like the worst

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Speaker 2: possible thing that could happen, everything wrong, Like you've got

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Speaker 2: to be exactly. You've got to fit in right, indicate

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Speaker 2: you're belonging with anything, anything's worth it. And he was

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Speaker 2: kind of searching around looking for what he could do,

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Speaker 2: and he told me, I have no idea. You know.

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Speaker 2: The one activity that I have or like maybe I

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Speaker 2: could do something is swimming. I don't know, try something.

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Speaker 2: And so he realized that right after his time in

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Speaker 2: the pool was a senior swim hour. So he was like,

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Speaker 2: all right, I'll just hang out until the seniors get there.

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Speaker 2: We'll see what happens. And he told me this incredible

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Speaker 2: story that he spent an hour with the seniors. They

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Speaker 2: were so happy to have him there in the pool

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Speaker 2: and made all of these friends who are sixty years

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Speaker 2: older than him. And now every time he shows up there,

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Speaker 2: he's got like his cheer squad of you know, in

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Speaker 2: the seventy to eighty year old generation. I just I

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Speaker 2: love that he found a way to make that challenge work.

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Speaker 2: Wasn't exactly with his peers, but he stepped out of

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Speaker 2: the kind of narrow road that we often put kids in.

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Speaker 1: That's the hope of the listening to you share that

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Speaker 1: story and seeing the delight on your face, the smile

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Speaker 1: that it elicits. This is the whole idea, right, Like

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Speaker 1: when you take on a challenge, you never quite know

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Speaker 1: what the outcome will be, but there's always some level

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Speaker 1: of enlargement even when it doesn't quite go the way

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Speaker 1: that you thought.

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Speaker 2: Chris, let's do a quick.

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Speaker 1: Lightning round, just a halfl of questions that I'd love.

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Speaker 2: A super quick, super short.

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Speaker 1: Response too, and then I'm going to hit you with

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Speaker 1: my last big important question. So lightning around question number one.

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Speaker 1: What's one thing that parents worry about that they.

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Speaker 2: Really shouldn't their kids moving around in the world. I

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Speaker 2: think we restrict their physical movements so much out of

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Speaker 2: fear of, you know, things like kidnappings that are actually

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Speaker 2: unbelievably rare. Let them go find their way to school,

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Speaker 2: find their way to friends' houses, if at all possible.

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Speaker 1: Fill in the blank. Every middle school. That is, every

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Speaker 1: child between the age of let's say nine to ten

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Speaker 1: through to fourteen or fifteen. Every middle schooler should try

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Speaker 1: blank at least once.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that's a good one. Should try joining a completely

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Speaker 2: new social group. Oh that is good. I like that

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Speaker 2: a lot.

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Speaker 1: What's the worst advice that you hear parents giving their

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Speaker 1: tweens work harder on academics.

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Speaker 2: That's a controversial one.

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Speaker 1: No, you and I we've just become brothers.

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Speaker 2: If you could only.

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Speaker 1: Give parents one piece of advice about raising adolescents.

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Speaker 2: What would it be, become more vulnerable. They can see

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Speaker 2: through you anyways, So it's time to reveal more about

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Speaker 2: the unfinished parts of yourself. Name one small risk every

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Speaker 2: twelve year old should be taking, exploring a city by

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Speaker 2: themselves or with friends. I love that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, here's my last lightning round question. What's your go

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Speaker 1: to response when a parent says, but what if they fail?

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Speaker 1: This is a great time in life to fail. It

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Speaker 1: stakes a low exactly feel high because they always feel high,

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Speaker 1: but they're really not that high when you're twelve years old.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, great stuff, Chris.

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Speaker 1: My last question for you, this is not a lightning

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Speaker 1: round question. This is a much more serious one that

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Speaker 1: really ties in with what the book is all about

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Speaker 1: and what your work is all about.

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Speaker 2: What is the difference from.

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Speaker 1: Your perspective between a good challenge and a challenge that

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Speaker 1: just stresses kids out and causes anxiety and worry and

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Speaker 1: fear and apprehension and.

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Speaker 2: All the bad things. Well, I've said.

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Speaker 1: Bad things like they're bad, But are they bad anyway?

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Speaker 1: What's the difference between a good challenge and a challenge

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Speaker 1: that just kids out.

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Speaker 2: The difference is whether you chose it and whether you

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Speaker 2: have friends with you. You know, if you chose it,

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Speaker 2: you're invested. And kids often don't get enough choice, And

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Speaker 2: adolescents are intelligent enough to make lots of choices that

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Speaker 2: we're still making for them. And if friends are with you,

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Speaker 2: then even something hard becomes part of your lore. You know.

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Speaker 2: Those are the stories you're going to laugh about, you know,

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Speaker 2: as soon as tomorrow or the next day, that bring

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Speaker 2: you closer. So they need choice and they need good company. Right, Okay,

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Speaker 2: so follow up question.

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Speaker 1: I just know that there are going to be some

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Speaker 1: parents who are saying, yeah, but my child just won't

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Speaker 1: choose anything challenging. My child just wants to sit at home,

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Speaker 1: sir at TikTok, playful, whatnot. And every time I say

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Speaker 1: come and do something that's going to stretch you a

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Speaker 1: little bit, they just say and they won't move.

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Speaker 2: I think every adolescent, even across different neurological types, really

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Speaker 2: wants to understand their peers. And that is one of

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Speaker 2: the most fundamental ways that puberty, tunes, our brains, they

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Speaker 2: want to be around them, know how to connect, join, leave,

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Speaker 2: all of those things. So if you're going to hook

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Speaker 2: them into something, it's going to be through a peer.

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Speaker 2: It's not you pushing them out the door. It's a

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Speaker 2: peer invading them into something. So our engineering is to,

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Speaker 2: you know, through our parent friends or through their friends,

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Speaker 2: to pull them out the door, so that they're going

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Speaker 2: because their friend is there, not because you told them.

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Speaker 1: So we're supposed to wrap it up here, but I'm

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Speaker 1: going to mention really quickly. I'm not sure to what

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Speaker 1: degree you're familiar with self determination theory. So that's the

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Speaker 1: foundation of everything that I've been doing for the last

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Speaker 1: twenty years, and everything that you're tapping into here is

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Speaker 1: aligned with that. So for the Happy Families podcast audience

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Speaker 1: who's listening right now, what you've really said is we

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Speaker 1: want our kids to take on challenges because it builds

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Speaker 1: their capacity, their competence, their capability. We want them to

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Speaker 1: do it with other people and to be involved with

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Speaker 1: others because that supports that relatdn's need and to the

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Speaker 1: degree that we possibly can, we want them to have

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Speaker 1: a say in the challenges that they're taking on because

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Speaker 1: when they buy the why, when they're inventing the why themselves,

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Speaker 1: when they're stepping into that rationale and saying this makes

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Speaker 1: sense to me, I want to do this, they're much

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Speaker 1: more likely to stick with it. What you've essentially done

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Speaker 1: in this book is created a whole lot of challenges

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Speaker 1: for kids to become more motivated, more effective, more functional

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Speaker 1: humans because they all sit within the most well researched,

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Speaker 1: most empirically backed psychological theory on the planet.

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Speaker 2: That's it. We're singing the same song. I'm with you.

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Speaker 2: I think they are naturally highly motivated people, so these

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Speaker 2: challenges are just about giving them the conditions to act

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Speaker 2: on that motivation, and they will drive themselves toward the

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Speaker 2: best learning that we can imagine.

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Speaker 1: So I'm sitting here with goosebumps all up my arms

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Speaker 1: and legs and thinking, what a great conversation. I hope

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Speaker 1: that everyone who's listened has gleaned so much. The book

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Speaker 1: is called Challenge Accepted. We'll link to that in the

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Speaker 1: show notes. It's available wherever you buy your books. Chris Bam,

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Speaker 1: thank you for staying up late in California to have

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Speaker 1: a chat with me on the Happy Families.

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Speaker 2: Podcasts such a fun chat. Thanks Justin.

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Speaker 1: The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Roland for

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Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Mim Hammond's provides research, admin and other support,

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Speaker 1: and if you would like more info of what we've

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Speaker 1: talked about, check the show notes for Chris's book and

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Speaker 1: visit Happy Families dot com dot au for even more

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Speaker 1: resources