Speaker 1: This is the Lady Vanisher's catch up episode number five.
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome back. I'm Alison Sandy and.
Speaker 2: I'm Brian Seymour. This time we look back on episodes
Speaker 2: twelve to fourteen. There was quite a bit of waiting
Speaker 2: for us during this period as things slowly started to
Speaker 2: move forward in this case. While it seemed to take
Speaker 2: forever at the time, there were some significant milestones along
Speaker 2: the way.
Speaker 1: One of those was when Marion Barter was finally placed
Speaker 1: on the missing person's list. Here we stepped back to
Speaker 1: episode twelve.
Speaker 3: A police review of the investigation into the whereabouts of
Speaker 3: a Queensland teacher has determined that information will be forwarded
Speaker 3: to the coroner and the case reinstated as a missing
Speaker 3: person case. Despite exhaustive inquiries in Australia and over sees,
Speaker 3: detectives from the tweed Byron Police District have been unable
Speaker 3: to determine her whereabouts. As part of the review, it
Speaker 3: was recommended Miss Bartby reinstated on the National Register owing
Speaker 3: to the unique circumstances of this case.
Speaker 2: Needless to say, we're pretty thrilled.
Speaker 4: I'm yeah, I'm quite elated. You know, I have a
Speaker 4: tear in my eye, and it's yeah, it's a big
Speaker 4: sigh of relief, you know, like it's just something that
Speaker 4: I have been fighting for by myself for a very
Speaker 4: long time, I feel, and you know, it's it's a
Speaker 4: very sad story, and it's in a very intriguing story,
Speaker 4: which most of our listeners on the podcast have I've
Speaker 4: also said, but my hair is standing on my head
Speaker 4: and I have goosebumps all over my body. Look, there
Speaker 4: are a lot of things that myself and you guys
Speaker 4: at Channel seven and all the soluthors that have been
Speaker 4: just constantly racking their brains and trying to come up
Speaker 4: with answers and you know, just looking for information that
Speaker 4: could pertain to what even happened to her, like working
Speaker 4: out a timeline, and oh my gosh, I can't even
Speaker 4: begin to say enough words, done enough to express my
Speaker 4: gratitude for all the people who take time and you know,
Speaker 4: time out of their day to worry about me, worry
Speaker 4: about mum, have an idea. And that's why I work
Speaker 4: so tiresly trying to answer everybody's questions. It takes me
Speaker 4: hours to do that, but I'm more than happy to
Speaker 4: do it because I understand these people are taking time
Speaker 4: out of their busy lives to actually help me as well,
Speaker 4: and I'm forever grateful, I really am. And I know,
Speaker 4: you know, even if my mum is alive and well
Speaker 4: and we find her, I'm sure she could appreciate the
Speaker 4: situation that I've been in and I think that she'd
Speaker 4: be very happy to know that people have really got
Speaker 4: behind me to help me find some answers.
Speaker 2: Although just to clarify, Marian is not being reinstated on
Speaker 2: the National Register as she was never put on it.
Speaker 2: She was only ever on the New South Wales Missing
Speaker 2: Persons list from two thousand and seven to two thousand
Speaker 2: and eleven. She will now be on the Australian Federal
Speaker 2: Police Missing Persons Register. In addition, New South Wales Police
Speaker 2: are confirming they have never located Marian and they are
Speaker 2: reopening the missing person's investigation into her disappearance. This will
Speaker 2: be conducted by the new Missing Persons Unit, formed after
Speaker 2: the old unit was disbanded one month after we launched
Speaker 2: the Lady Vanishers earlier this year. Undoubtedly, these major developments
Speaker 2: will lead to more police action on Marion's case, more searches,
Speaker 2: more checks, more investigations and If a coronial inquiry does
Speaker 2: go ahead, Sally will finally be able to access all
Speaker 2: of the documents she has been fighting for, while witnesses
Speaker 2: we found can be compelled to give evidence.
Speaker 1: One of our biggest endeavors has been helping Sally Leyden
Speaker 1: take her mother Marion's case to ENCAT, the New South
Speaker 1: Wales Civil and Administrative Tribunal. ENCAT is the place where
Speaker 1: ordinary people can go to sort out disputes on just
Speaker 1: about everything from tendency issues to building works. In Sally's instance,
Speaker 1: she's seeking access to documents pertaining to Marion in the
Speaker 1: investigation file held by New South Wales Police. We've previously
Speaker 1: obtained that file through freedom of information laws, but much
Speaker 1: of it was heavily redacted and we were denied access
Speaker 1: to documents containing the information we sought. Channel seven backed
Speaker 1: this legal action for Sally. We made submissions along with
Speaker 1: police and the New South Wales Information Privacy Commissioner.
Speaker 2: Hearing was set down for one day June twenty fourth.
Speaker 5: We are now a record in proceedings Leyden, the Commissioner
Speaker 5: plus Police Force.
Speaker 2: We have an audio recording of parts of the hearing
Speaker 2: and will be playing some of its. Remember we are
Speaker 2: seeking access to the police file. It's up to the
Speaker 2: Commissioner of Police responsible for denying us that access to
Speaker 2: prove that was the correct and preferable decision. After some
Speaker 2: general housekeeping, the hearing begins.
Speaker 6: The applicant is Miss Sally Leyden, miss Layden's mother. He's
Speaker 6: a lady by the name of Marion Barter and Miss
Speaker 6: Barta was reported missing to the New South Wales Police
Speaker 6: on the twenty second of October nineteen ninety seven and
Speaker 6: she's never been found. The New South Wales Police Force
Speaker 6: conducted an investigation into Miss Barta's disappearance and that investigation
Speaker 6: has been suspended since November twenty eleven. In a nutshell,
Speaker 6: the information that is the subject of this application is
Speaker 6: information that was obtained in the course of that police investigation.
Speaker 6: What I propose to do, by way of very brief opening,
Speaker 6: is simply to take you, Senior Member, to two documents
Speaker 6: which conveniently set out the background and some of the
Speaker 6: narrative to the course of investigation that we say is relevant.
Speaker 6: If I could have permission to approach and to hand
Speaker 6: them to you, I've got copies for my friends. I
Speaker 6: should note that these documents are actually sitting on They
Speaker 6: should be sitting on the file, but for convenience it
Speaker 6: might be easy for me to hand them up, so
Speaker 6: I'll just hand copies over to my friends.
Speaker 2: During the course of the hearing, Marian is referred to
Speaker 2: as a person of interest or POI. Also you'll hear
Speaker 2: talk of cops events cops. COPS stands for the Computerized
Speaker 2: Operational Policing System. It's the system used by New South
Speaker 2: Wales Police officers to record jobs on the internal police database.
Speaker 2: Our and Sally's lawyer, rico Ynjaichik goes on to outline
Speaker 2: the story of Marian's disappearance and explains what is known
Speaker 2: of the police investigation into the case.
Speaker 1: Thanks to Sally's application for a coronial inquest, New South
Speaker 1: Wales Police are taking some action. In an email dated
Speaker 1: the fourteenth of July, a New South Wales Police media
Speaker 1: spokeswoman wrote.
Speaker 7: This, Hi, Alison Detective Senior Constable Sheian will soon meet
Speaker 7: with senior investigators from the Homicide Squad to conduct a
Speaker 7: case review. This is a routine review to determine future
Speaker 7: direction of an investigation, but I am told for this
Speaker 7: case the Homicide Squad will discuss their recommendations with the
Speaker 7: coroner as her honor has expressed interest. I've been assured
Speaker 7: that we will be advised of the outcome so we
Speaker 7: can update you when it's appropriate to do so.
Speaker 1: Then four days later, on July nineteen, we receive the
Speaker 1: following statement from Police.
Speaker 8: New South Wales detectives have reviewed the police case looking
Speaker 8: into the unexplained disappearance of a Queensland teacher. Marion Barter
Speaker 8: was aged fifty one years old when she was reported
Speaker 8: missing by her daughter living at Byron Bay in nineteen
Speaker 8: ninety seven. Detectives from the Tweed Byron Police District have
Speaker 8: explored numerous leads in the case, including Marion's activities overseas
Speaker 8: at the time of her disappearance. Officers yesterday Wednesday, seventeenth
Speaker 8: of July twenty nineteen, conducted an official review of the
Speaker 8: case with colleagues from the State Crime Commands, Homicide Squad
Speaker 8: and the New South Wales Department of Communities and Justice.
Speaker 8: DAVE agreed to seek advice from the State Corner to
Speaker 8: determine whether the New South Wales Police Force formally has
Speaker 8: the jurisdiction to further its extensive efforts to find the
Speaker 8: gold Coast woman. The referral to the corner is in
Speaker 8: Cordon's With the new South Wales Coroners Act two thousand
Speaker 8: and nine, Tweed Byron detectives are preparing a comprehensive summary
Speaker 8: of the case for the coroner's consideration.
Speaker 1: So the police have sought advice from the coroner, which
Speaker 1: is good news for Sally because if this leads to
Speaker 1: a coronial inquest, all of the evidence must be laid
Speaker 1: out on the table.
Speaker 2: This investigation has established that part of the problem for
Speaker 2: Sally is that her mum's disappearance did not receive the
Speaker 2: attention it deserved early on, including Graham Childs, the police
Speaker 2: officer who took the initial statement from Sally Leyden at
Speaker 2: the Byron Bay Police station on October twenty second, nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety seven, and marked the incident as an occurrence. He's
Speaker 2: now retired and when we visited his house he was away,
Speaker 2: so we left a poster of Marion in his letterbox.
Speaker 1: Several days later, Sally and I managed to reach by phone.
Speaker 1: Hi Graham, Alison Sandy from the Seven network.
Speaker 9: How are you well? Thanks, that's good.
Speaker 1: I'm joined here by Sally. Hi Graham, Hi, you would
Speaker 1: have seen the poster we left. We came to visit
Speaker 1: you last week.
Speaker 10: Ah, it's all coming into place now, told us.
Speaker 1: After the initial report to police, nothing was noted in
Speaker 1: Marion's case file for ten years. It was two thousand
Speaker 1: and seven before Marion was placed on the New South
Speaker 1: Wales Missing person register, and that was only after Sally
Speaker 1: had contacted the Australian Federal Police. The lack of action
Speaker 1: has been almost as baffling as Marion's disappearance itself. We
Speaker 1: hoped Senior Constable Graham Childs would be able to provide
Speaker 1: some clarity.
Speaker 4: I'm not sure if you remember. I know that Gary
Speaker 4: Sheen had told me that he had spoken to you
Speaker 4: back a long time ago, like twenty eleven, and asked
Speaker 4: you if you had the recollection of the case of
Speaker 4: my mum being a missing person, and he had said
Speaker 4: to me that you didn't have.
Speaker 1: Thanks to Sally's election of it.
Speaker 4: But I wanted to call you and talk to you,
Speaker 4: or come to you and see you and just say
Speaker 4: hi and just see if we could get a bit
Speaker 4: more information. Now that you're retired from the.
Speaker 10: Police force, I've got to be really, really honest with you.
Speaker 10: When Gary Shan Rangy. I had just the vaguest of recollections.
Speaker 10: I can imagine twenty six years in the police force,
Speaker 10: and I've been out for sixteen, so it is a
Speaker 10: long time ago, and a lot of water has passed
Speaker 10: under the bridge and sent more. I'm more than happy
Speaker 10: to give you any information. It's not like I'm hiding
Speaker 10: secrets that I We're more than happy to give you anything.
Speaker 10: This only came up with me again a month or
Speaker 10: a couple of months ago. Someone told me they heard
Speaker 10: my name on a podcast saying that, and so I said, well,
Speaker 10: I think it's interesting but not relevant.
Speaker 4: But I.
Speaker 10: Don't really I vaguely remember you coming into the station,
Speaker 10: and I vaguely remember that I think we contacted the
Speaker 10: Federal police or someone in relation to it. But really
Speaker 10: that's about all I've got. I know that's really terrible,
Speaker 10: and I'm really sorry I'm not able to give you
Speaker 10: any more, but I really can't remember.
Speaker 4: I know it's a long time ago, and I obviously
Speaker 4: gas gathered too that there was a lot of things,
Speaker 4: but that obviously happened after that with you working there,
Speaker 4: and obviously trying to remember every particular person coming in
Speaker 4: is difficult.
Speaker 1: Were you responsible for those sorts of cases or were
Speaker 1: they referred to. I mean, what was the process for.
Speaker 10: What would normally happen when someone comes into report someone missing. Look,
Speaker 10: a lot of people talk about that thing. Oh I've
Speaker 10: got to be missing for twenty four hours. No, no,
Speaker 10: that's not actually the case it's about for me anyway.
Speaker 10: It certainly haven't dealt with a lot of missing persons
Speaker 10: that normally we would know the general duty follow would
Speaker 10: just be at the counter, would take the report back.
Speaker 10: In those days, we would have would have been logging
Speaker 10: it onto the computer, make a few inquiries, and then
Speaker 10: pass it. Usually passed something like that on if there
Speaker 10: was suspicious circumstances. The uniform guys don't have or didn't
Speaker 10: have the time at the time, probably the access to
Speaker 10: be looking at phone records or bank records and all that.
Speaker 10: So that would have been passed on and allocated by
Speaker 10: a case manager to one of the.
Speaker 1: Detectives in those sorts of cases, unless there was suspicious circumstances.
Speaker 1: Would you put it as a missing person case or
Speaker 1: an occurrence? Because I think Sally said at the initial
Speaker 1: stages it was just listed as an occurrence.
Speaker 10: Yeah, Well, all of those things were what we used.
Speaker 10: We used to go put on the occurrence pad, so
Speaker 10: anything that happened was an occurrence and that was just
Speaker 10: recorded as an occurrence and then determined from there. The
Speaker 10: duty case officer would have come in, had to look
Speaker 10: at all the things, the occurrences that had happened, and
Speaker 10: any cases would have been allocated to detectives or whatever
Speaker 10: that needed to have further follow up. You know, obviously
Speaker 10: when someone comes in and does a report commuting you
Speaker 10: know I've had my house broken into or whatever it
Speaker 10: might be, those jobs are allocated to the appropriate people.
Speaker 10: So this would have been the same. Would have the
Speaker 10: case manager look at it. The case manager would then
Speaker 10: decide who investigates that, And to be honest, I wouldn't
Speaker 10: think a missing person who how how long have your
Speaker 10: mum been missing at that stage?
Speaker 4: So she left Australia on the twenty third of June,
Speaker 4: and she'd been in contact with me up until the
Speaker 4: first of August yep, and then I came in to
Speaker 4: see you in the October.
Speaker 10: So it was an't answer for quite some time, so
Speaker 10: well August.
Speaker 4: To October, so two months she hadn't been spoken to.
Speaker 10: Yeah, and in the scheme of things that would have
Speaker 10: been a long time. I would have imagined you would
Speaker 10: have told me at the time then that there was
Speaker 10: a long time between phone calls.
Speaker 1: Sally tries to jog Graham's memory by recalling the circumstances
Speaker 1: that led her to go to police in Byron Bay
Speaker 1: and questions how he made the conclusions he did in
Speaker 1: his report, particularly in related to money drained from her
Speaker 1: mother's bank account.
Speaker 4: I'm just trying to work out how how I got
Speaker 4: that information? You have got that information? Would you have
Speaker 4: gone like So's people are questioning this Graham and saying, well,
Speaker 4: maybe it was a local like it's a country town.
Speaker 4: Maybe he just walked in and knew the bank manager
Speaker 4: and he asked the bank manager for information. Or would
Speaker 4: you have had to go through a process through Commonwealth
Speaker 4: Bank to get that information?
Speaker 10: And I'm guessing, and this is pure speculation, that it
Speaker 10: would have just been a phone call to the local bank. Okay,
Speaker 10: it would have been a phone call and they would
Speaker 10: have pulled up the records and had a look. And
Speaker 10: that's why it would have been quite Whether it be
Speaker 10: right or wrong, it would just be Ab'll just bring
Speaker 10: them Dave down at the bank.
Speaker 1: So just to clarify, and the Currence entry is basically
Speaker 1: to report an incident with no investigation required. That means
Speaker 1: any missing person's report would have been done in retrospect,
Speaker 1: and that only happened a decade later.
Speaker 10: I'm guessing by the fact that it's written off as
Speaker 10: occurrence only, so that to me that would have meant
Speaker 10: no further investigation at this stage, that there was the
Speaker 10: mum's come back into the country, or that whatever's happened,
Speaker 10: there's no suspicious circumstances. We're just recording it as an occurrence.
Speaker 10: So I'm guessing that that wouldn't have been a sign
Speaker 10: to anyone who would have been no further investigation From me, Well.
Speaker 4: I can't see anything like there's on the freedom of
Speaker 4: information and documentation. It's got your that statement and then
Speaker 4: it jumps to two thousand and seven, so there's nothing
Speaker 4: in between that would.
Speaker 10: Be right because it's an occurrence only.
Speaker 4: I really appreciate your time, like it means a lot
Speaker 4: that you've actually talking to me, because you've been a
Speaker 4: key person in my mind. I mean, obviously Gary's been
Speaker 4: working with me extensively on this for quite some time,
Speaker 4: but you know, pretty much since twenty eleven. He's kind
Speaker 4: of said to me, they've suspended the case, closed the case,
Speaker 4: and his hands are tired and he can't do anything more.
Speaker 4: He has indicated to me that there's more to it
Speaker 4: than meets the eye, but that his hands are tied.
Speaker 4: So it puts us in a pretty precarious situation. We
Speaker 4: were trying to just get some information and do the
Speaker 4: research ourselves.
Speaker 10: I would love to be able to say I remember
Speaker 10: talking to the mother and being able to pass that information,
Speaker 10: and I can't tell you anymore because you didn't want
Speaker 10: to have none of This is actually a very very
Speaker 10: sketchy sort of memory of it, and I don't know
Speaker 10: why it's not that. All I can say is that
Speaker 10: there's so many things you do in so many years,
Speaker 10: it just didn't stand out.
Speaker 4: So would it be normal behavior if you are normal practice,
Speaker 4: If you ring me and tell me that you'd located her,
Speaker 4: would you have written that on the file?
Speaker 10: Yeah? I'd like to think I would have, but I
Speaker 10: may not have. And that's not to say that I didn't,
Speaker 10: but I mean I don't remember it. I can't imagine,
Speaker 10: and I'm sorry this is awsommation because I can't imagine
Speaker 10: what you're going through, so that I would imagine I
Speaker 10: would be the only one that would do that, to
Speaker 10: be honest, I mean, and you're right, I am a
Speaker 10: good guy and I was a un a decorated policeman,
Speaker 10: you know, so I thought ex policeman. So I took
Speaker 10: my job very seriously. But if I did do that,
Speaker 10: it sounds like I fell down on my job by
Speaker 10: not recording. That sounds like, you know, I skipped a
Speaker 10: step there, you know. So if I did ring, it's
Speaker 10: pretty pretty lousy of me not to have recorded that,
Speaker 10: I know, and go back in and update the system
Speaker 10: and say that I made that phone call, So you know,
Speaker 10: I've fallen down there. I feel pretty bad about that.
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know if that was the case. I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess do you remember actually ringing somebody or speaking to.
Speaker 10: Somebody that No, And that might seem really hard to
Speaker 10: believe that. You can't think that I wouldn't remember that.
Speaker 10: But I mean, through the twenty six years, if I
Speaker 10: was shot out, stabbed, or was bitten by people with aids,
Speaker 10: a lot of those things at the forefront of my mind.
Speaker 10: And please, there's no disrespect in this at all becau.
Speaker 10: It's one person coming into the station making report of
Speaker 10: a person that I've recorded as an occurrence only, So
Speaker 10: it's quite low, probably on the memory scale. And please
Speaker 10: don't be offended by that, because you know, your mum's
Speaker 10: are obviously a very important person. And I don't mean
Speaker 10: any disrespect by that at all.
Speaker 1: We appreciate like from your point of view. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's only so much. Remember it was a long time ago.
Speaker 1: It was twenty two years and you know it was
Speaker 1: in the whole scheme of things in a place like
Speaker 1: Byron Bay. I mean you've seen it grow from. I
Speaker 1: mean back then it was probably still a bit more
Speaker 1: of a sleepy, sleepy town, was it.
Speaker 10: Well, when I went to Borron, but there was sixteen
Speaker 10: police here and we used to close the door at
Speaker 10: eleven o'clock at night and go home. There was no
Speaker 10: police in Barron after eleven o'clock at night, so you know,
Speaker 10: very different. Now this is about sixty five or seventy
Speaker 10: odd police there and very different, very different town, you know.
Speaker 10: So I mean we used to come in and open
Speaker 10: up the door and there was no one there. If
Speaker 10: we have a two sheep in the front yard, so
Speaker 10: it was this very different place that I'm not in
Speaker 10: the police force anymore. So I've got nothing to hide
Speaker 10: and I've got no problem with saying how it was
Speaker 10: or how it is and what my recollection it is.
Speaker 2: Some fantastic news we can tell you about. The new
Speaker 2: South Wales Police is establishing a new properly resourced missing
Speaker 2: persons unit. One month after the Lady Vanishers debuted, it
Speaker 2: was announced they were disbanding the old unit, which had
Speaker 2: failed to properly investigate dozens of long term missing persons cases.
Speaker 2: Now they have announced Project Aleathea to form a new
Speaker 2: unit of seven detectives and four analysts, along with state
Speaker 2: of the art technology to properly handle cases like Marion Barter's.
Speaker 2: It's a big win for our team and for Sally,
Speaker 2: and will hopefully prevent families in future from living through
Speaker 2: the ordeal of losing a loved one without knowing how
Speaker 2: or why, and without the full and proper assistance of
Speaker 2: those tasked with the responsibility and the power to find
Speaker 2: the answers. In episode thirteen, we learned that documents were
Speaker 2: being prepared for the State Coroner Sally email the new
Speaker 2: South Wales Coroner's Office on Monday, July twenty nine, seeking
Speaker 2: clarification on how long it might take for them to
Speaker 2: decide whether or not to take on Marion's case.
Speaker 11: Dear Sally, thank you for your email.
Speaker 2: She received an email response from Registrar and Lambino the
Speaker 2: next day.
Speaker 11: New Southals Police have advised they are preparing a report
Speaker 11: to the State Coroner for her decision on whether she
Speaker 11: will take jurisdiction in regards to the suspected death of
Speaker 11: your mother, Marion Barter. I understand this report is almost
Speaker 11: complete and we'll be far with the State Coroner soon,
Speaker 11: although an exact date has not been given. When the
Speaker 11: State Coroner receives the report from police, to accept jurisdiction,
Speaker 11: she will need to determine two things. One that your
Speaker 11: mother's disappearance is a suspected death Section seventeen of the
Speaker 11: Coroner's Act two thousand and nine, and two at the
Speaker 11: time of these suspected death there was a sufficient connection
Speaker 11: to New South Wales Section eighteen of the Coroner's Act
Speaker 11: two thousand and nine. An inquest is mandatory for suspected deaths,
Speaker 11: as the coroner needs to be satisfied that it has
Speaker 11: been sufficiently disclosed that the person has died.
Speaker 2: It generally takes up to five business days form the
Speaker 2: state coroner to make and advise of her decision. We're
Speaker 2: not sure how long we'll have to wait, but we're
Speaker 2: confident we will have a decision from the state Coroner's
Speaker 2: office soon.
Speaker 1: This investigation is like unpicking a tangled web. So many
Speaker 1: bits of seemingly unrelated information that need to be pulled
Speaker 1: apart and pieced back together to make sense, and all
Speaker 1: of it is a bit mixed up with misinformation, typos
Speaker 1: or sloppy note taking in official documents, or comments from
Speaker 1: people who can't quite remember that throw us the wrong
Speaker 1: dates or names. They're all detours, which of course must
Speaker 1: be investigated and ruled in or out, And just when
Speaker 1: we think we have something clear, we get new information
Speaker 1: that tangles the web even more. This past week we've
Speaker 1: experienced that it's all to do with Marion's bank accounts.
Speaker 1: But before we reveal what we've discovered, we'll take you
Speaker 1: on the journey as to how we got to this point.
Speaker 2: We've made a couple of trips to northern New South
Speaker 2: Wales for this podcast, and in recent weeks we've been
Speaker 2: back to Byron Bay again, Alison, Sally and I all
Speaker 2: drove down from Brisbane. There is someone we've been looking
Speaker 2: for in Byron Bay, someone who we thought may remember
Speaker 2: seeing Marion Goody good looking for Brian, Alison, I'm Sally Brian.
Speaker 2: We finally tracked him down at his workplace, the Byron
Speaker 2: Resource Recovery Center's been missing since and just a warning,
Speaker 2: it was pretty windy, so the audio quality is not perfect.
Speaker 12: Do you remember me walking and showing you a photo?
Speaker 13: I remember you.
Speaker 8: Do you remember her well when when Bill first said
Speaker 8: it to me to look at it a way?
Speaker 9: Maybe you know what I mean?
Speaker 14: So what happened?
Speaker 2: Brian Cox worked at the Commonwealth Bank in Byron Bay
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety seven. We found him with the help
Speaker 2: of a man named Bill Peters, who was the commercial
Speaker 2: manager at the same time. Brian was at the branch
Speaker 2: when five thousand dollars was withdrawn every day from Marion's
Speaker 2: account over three and a half weeks, and he would
Speaker 2: probably have been there on the day two months later
Speaker 2: when Sally came in with her mother's photo looking for her.
Speaker 15: Let me give you a recap of what happened back then.
Speaker 12: See if that rings any girls, because I walked in
Speaker 12: with that photo or something similar and walked up to
Speaker 12: the counter and guy serves me there was nobody else
Speaker 12: in there that was in the old offender. And I
Speaker 12: walked in and I said, I do have six CTV
Speaker 12: footage on the ATM and my mum's supposed to be
Speaker 12: in the UK, and I've just abound about five thousand
Speaker 12: dollars in comout here count every day.
Speaker 13: For three and a half weeks from the Bay branch.
Speaker 12: And the guy who I was talking to took the
Speaker 12: photo of his hand sugar and sent him a little
Speaker 12: back when what I've seen. The manager's office came out
Speaker 12: to the photocopy of the photo and all come up
Speaker 12: to me and my partners appoted a lot because I
Speaker 12: see her I don't remember that. I'm just saying I
Speaker 12: feel like the person who did it would have been
Speaker 12: would have remembered that happening.
Speaker 1: That's not a normal thing happened, I guess to day.
Speaker 4: And so what would you what would you think.
Speaker 12: You were a supervisor there, someone came in every day
Speaker 12: taking it five thousand dollars would not flagged or.
Speaker 13: Personally, I think if it was me, someone's taking five
Speaker 13: thousand dollars out every day. Yeah, started asking the question
Speaker 13: five thousands a lot more money than correct.
Speaker 12: So we've done the equation.
Speaker 16: That's okay, half for today.
Speaker 13: Yeah, you did definitely start asking questions, okay, and so
Speaker 13: get that sort of money every day.
Speaker 16: Remember this, who would have have been recorded to the
Speaker 16: opposite visor?
Speaker 1: You know who that was?
Speaker 9: Jeff Smart?
Speaker 3: Jeff Smart?
Speaker 17: Is he still boat?
Speaker 13: I found out today that he passed.
Speaker 15: I didn't know that, yeah today, Okay.
Speaker 10: I haven't seen.
Speaker 1: Jeff since.
Speaker 12: Nine Okay, okay, Jeff Smart. It doesn't ring a bell
Speaker 12: like I kind of. It was weird for me because
Speaker 12: it was like the person took to be then close
Speaker 12: the door behind them at the very back where I
Speaker 12: was standing at the counter, and the door being parallel
Speaker 12: to me and I probably mid center of the.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 13: Yeah, that's the old offices.
Speaker 12: Yeah, so you remember what I'm saying, and there was
Speaker 12: a photocop.
Speaker 15: If I'm looking at the back, there was a photocopy
Speaker 15: over there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So what's the process like when that happens back?
Speaker 1: Then do you have to go in and do the door?
Speaker 17: SIPs of five thousand dollars.
Speaker 13: Wouldn't have been done through an agen.
Speaker 12: No, when that's what the guy said, the counter too,
Speaker 12: and so would be and the ATP would have been
Speaker 12: like maybe four hundred dollars lucky, yeah, maybe less than that.
Speaker 17: Yes, and so yeah, okay, and it's five thousand dollars
Speaker 17: for a reason that would be about but you take
Speaker 17: out daily pass with that sort of like.
Speaker 16: Flags or something.
Speaker 2: What was your floats back in those days? Do you remember, Brian,
Speaker 2: how much money did you have cash in the bank?
Speaker 2: Did you have withdrawals? We would have had a bit there,
Speaker 2: ten grand, twenty grand, fifteen.
Speaker 6: In the cashtra ourself we would have had probably up in.
Speaker 2: A thousand all right, okay, it's quite a bit.
Speaker 6: But in the lock, the way and the safe we
Speaker 6: could have had anything because we have the beach hotel
Speaker 6: or all that bacon back then and everything was done manually, right.
Speaker 9: We used to count the cash in the back safe and.
Speaker 13: That was where it stayed, so you could have it
Speaker 13: with drawers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And would that have been if someone coming said
Speaker 2: I want to take five thousand dollars out?
Speaker 10: Do they have to fill out a form?
Speaker 2: I mean you have to see the idea, what's the
Speaker 2: process and.
Speaker 9: Had to be performed with an identification, so every.
Speaker 2: Single day and photo ID. Do you need a particular standard?
Speaker 12: I would have been a card and then if they
Speaker 12: had a card kin like she could have just done
Speaker 12: it with her key, card and a pin.
Speaker 9: I'm not sure they could have done card and in
Speaker 9: back then, I'm not sure.
Speaker 13: So these days you walk in for your card and.
Speaker 1: Hit the pin and put the key there.
Speaker 18: Yeah, I think you've.
Speaker 19: Put it back there.
Speaker 12: So can I ask you another question? Because the lady
Speaker 12: rang me the other day and she said all the
Speaker 12: notes had have those numbers on them, and that the
Speaker 12: banks keep records for records of the bank note number
Speaker 12: so that when they when someone comes and gets them,
Speaker 12: and then they look at it against what that money
Speaker 12: has been using it. So if someone went and brought
Speaker 12: a car, for example, one money, they look at the
Speaker 12: numbers on their notes to trace them back. You guys
Speaker 12: didn't do that. But if someone came in every day
Speaker 12: for three and a half week's taking her five thousand dollars, surely.
Speaker 9: That I remember that a flag, even though it was
Speaker 9: a long time ago.
Speaker 2: I serged you too, so well, something someone did it.
Speaker 2: Someone did it. That's what the police have called us.
Speaker 4: But you reckon if you reckon, you would.
Speaker 6: Have remembered it.
Speaker 8: I mean that I remember.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Jeff Smarts no longer. Is there anyone else
Speaker 2: you can remember who might have been aware of something
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 12: He was definitely a guy, and he was definitely I'd
Speaker 12: say he was taller than you, like from a memory, like,
Speaker 12: I think he was kind of off a bit tour
Speaker 12: the counter.
Speaker 2: Talking to me, Brian, and I get that a lot.
Speaker 12: Yeah, but you know, like I'm just saying, like I
Speaker 12: think from memory he had dark hair. Do you remember
Speaker 12: any guys working there other than I mean, Phil Peters
Speaker 12: told me he was a commercial manager and he doesn't
Speaker 12: have any recollection of it either.
Speaker 14: And I I mean, I'm not.
Speaker 12: I'm not a daisy cake. I don't expect people to
Speaker 12: remember certain things. But I really believe that the guy
Speaker 12: who took the photo out of my hand remembered, like
Speaker 12: he said, oh, that rings them out so even. And
Speaker 12: that was in October the money came out and going
Speaker 12: dark here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, coming to face like that name, you don't recognize
Speaker 2: marriage for that photo would have looked like when I
Speaker 2: first looked at it, Yeah, that's roughly what you would
Speaker 2: have looked like on the left back then, it.
Speaker 17: Doesn't lead the name doesn't.
Speaker 2: Since that correspondence with the Commonwealth Bank, there has been
Speaker 2: a major development. We found out some significant new information.
Speaker 2: We now understand that Marion actually held accounts with the
Speaker 2: former Colonial State Bank, not the Commonwealth Bank. It was
Speaker 2: a financial organization which merged with the Commonwealth Bank in
Speaker 2: June two thousand, three years after Marion's disappearance.
Speaker 1: We've learned that Marian's current two accounts with the Commonwealth
Speaker 1: Bank were inherited after it took over the Colonial State
Speaker 1: Bank in two thousand. Of those, only one had money
Speaker 1: in it. That raises the question that perhaps Marion or
Speaker 1: someone using her name instead visited the Colonial State Bank branch,
Speaker 1: not the Commonwealth Bank at Byron Bay, to withdraw five
Speaker 1: thousand dollars a day because there was no affiliation between
Speaker 1: the two organizations in nineteen ninety seven. Also, Marion may
Speaker 1: have had two other Colonial accounts that were closed prior
Speaker 1: to the Commonwealth Bank taking over. There are no current
Speaker 1: records of transactions as they were destroyed after fourteen years. However,
Speaker 1: when New South Wales Police officer Steve McAllister was putting
Speaker 1: out notifications to the banks in two thousand and seven,
Speaker 1: the records would have existed. This information may have been
Speaker 1: put into Marion's case file. Both of the two accounts
Speaker 1: Marion hurled in nineteen ninety seven had incorrect birth dates.
Speaker 1: One was the right date but the wrong year. The
Speaker 1: other had the wrong date but the right year. The
Speaker 1: first account was a holding account with Barclays Bank at
Speaker 1: Rye in the United Kingdom. It was arranged for the
Speaker 1: period she was traveling overseas. Had she wanted to access it,
Speaker 1: she would have had to go into a Barclays branch
Speaker 1: in the UK, show proof of identity, and Barclays would
Speaker 1: have had to contact Colonial to transfer the cash. This
Speaker 1: never happened. Money in this account never left Australia. The balance,
Speaker 1: totaling around fourteen eight hundred dollars, was moved to unclaimed
Speaker 1: moneies in two thousand and four, having been dormant for
Speaker 1: seven years. It's still there. The second account was flagged
Speaker 1: for ATM fraud. The postal address has been amended by
Speaker 1: the Commonwealth Bank to its Fraud Control Department, so no
Speaker 1: information can be sent. We can only presume that this
Speaker 1: was the account drained to zero at Byron Bay and
Speaker 1: Burleigh in nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 2: So what does all of this tell us? For a start,
Speaker 2: it would explain the reference to the Colonial State Bank
Speaker 2: in a nineteen ninety eight letter to Marion's father Jack
Speaker 2: in his initial dealings with the Salvation Army Missing Person Service.
Speaker 2: It would also explain why staff at the Byron Bay
Speaker 2: Commonwealth Bank can't remember someone draining five thousand dollars a
Speaker 2: day from an account there over three and a half
Speaker 2: weeks in nineteen ninety seven. But Sally's recollection is that
Speaker 2: she did phone the Commonwealth Bank in October ninety seven
Speaker 2: with her mother's details, requesting information. Could she have been mistaken?
Speaker 2: Did she really call the Colonial State Bank believing it
Speaker 2: was the Commonwealth Bank? Did Marian incorrectly note the detail
Speaker 2: of her account or could Sally have misread them. Sally
Speaker 2: also remembers going to the Byron Bay branch of the
Speaker 2: Commonwealth Bank with a then fiancee, Chris, and a photo
Speaker 2: of her mother, Marion, on October twenty second, nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 2: It would seem that she did if you recall an
Speaker 2: episode six, Sally mentions the location of the branch had
Speaker 2: changed since her nineteen ninety seven visit.
Speaker 4: Actually a different bank for used to be up there.
Speaker 2: Oh, I did it.
Speaker 4: Essentially because it was flat so when you walked in,
Speaker 4: the counter was right there.
Speaker 2: She knew exactly where the former Commonwealth Bank was situated
Speaker 2: and even the layout. In nineteen ninety seven, there was
Speaker 2: a Colonial State Bank branch in Byron Bay. The address
Speaker 2: was fifty six Johnson Street. That's where the current Commonwealth
Speaker 2: Bank branch stands today, which makes perfect sense since the
Speaker 2: Commonwealth Bank took over the Colonial State Bank. Interestingly, there
Speaker 2: was also a Colone Annual State Bank branch at Burley
Speaker 2: Heads in nineteen ninety seven. It was on James Street
Speaker 2: and Burley was the other place where money was taken
Speaker 2: from Marion's account.
Speaker 1: In recent days, Sally and I have been back to
Speaker 1: the Gold Coast too, not far from where Marion used
Speaker 1: to live, to try to find someone we've repeatedly tried
Speaker 1: to contact by phone without success.
Speaker 15: Hi Great from the maintenance department at Southport School.
Speaker 1: This time we thought we'd try in person, and at
Speaker 1: last luck was on our side, although the audio quality
Speaker 1: isn't great. Greg Edwards, the groundsman from the Southport School
Speaker 1: who had been seeing Marion before her disappearance, and he
Speaker 1: was just as Sally remembered him. He's now sixty four.
Speaker 1: He's been working at the school for twenty eight years.
Speaker 1: Greg can't remember when he and Marion started dating.
Speaker 10: Okay, so easier question.
Speaker 16: Before she left, how long had you been not dating?
Speaker 14: Oh, it was always it was stopping. And then she
Speaker 14: was your friendly again. And then she she wanted to
Speaker 14: go to a win him. That's intriguing and Bay, I
Speaker 14: must have been out of thought. That's interesting Byron Bay,
Speaker 14: you know, or something like that.
Speaker 16: Was by something like that she invited that said said okay,
Speaker 16: So she.
Speaker 14: Said, oh well, we may forget about and that's okay
Speaker 14: because she was getting very dramatic about a teacher's not
Speaker 14: doing what she wanted to do in this or something.
Speaker 1: But he remembers when things started to fizzle. You guys
Speaker 1: weren't that serious by the sound of it.
Speaker 14: Well, not not in the finish, because all the drama
Speaker 14: about ways of teaching, because it was brought in somebody
Speaker 14: in you who who was higher above her over here
Speaker 14: and at the prep school, and she didn't like that
Speaker 14: and that's just too much grammar. Yeah, I don't think
Speaker 14: the rama.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you were together probably about a year.
Speaker 14: Maybe more than that, I think, Yeah, we went Quay, Norfolk. Yeah,
Speaker 14: it was probably more than that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you never got in touch with her again
Speaker 1: after she up and broke up.
Speaker 14: After we broke up, I must must have missed. I
Speaker 14: didn't mint sort, not that I was angry or anything awkward,
Speaker 14: so I just sort of kept away. And she saw
Speaker 14: me one day, I'm going out to England for a while,
Speaker 14: and I say, okay. She said, you've been trying to
Speaker 14: avoid me. I don't know, but I was, but yeah,
Speaker 14: And that's the And then the next I heard was
Speaker 14: she said to me one day, oh have you heard
Speaker 14: from Marian No? No, nod nowhere has And I just
Speaker 14: assumed she met maybe at the school hat. I thought
Speaker 14: that was the way she was talking, whether she knew
Speaker 14: any more than that at the time. And then that
Speaker 14: must have been years later. I got called up the
Speaker 14: office of the Policeman up here.
Speaker 19: Was talking that was that, Yeah, Gary, okay, he said,
Speaker 19: I won't.
Speaker 14: Get a stakement off your day. I'll come back and
Speaker 14: see you, okay. Anyway, he rang me one day and said, oh,
Speaker 14: I'm coming up there this weekend and we're waiting to
Speaker 14: give Oh. No, worries, I said, but I'm doing a
Speaker 14: Comcada challenge. I was working on the Comcada challenge, so
Speaker 14: you know, if you work out a time, and he said,
Speaker 14: I don't worry about it, so I'll catch up with him.
Speaker 14: And that was I was like, that was it. He
Speaker 14: never Actually I was quite willing to give him a stake,
Speaker 14: but he just he just he just didn't. I know,
Speaker 14: because I saw Leslie ye a while later, and she
Speaker 14: he did go and see her that same weekend. I
Speaker 14: just upped into her twice.
Speaker 1: He recalled to me later, how I missat was the
Speaker 1: beginning of the end of their relationship.
Speaker 19: I was just hanging out some decorative dishes on the
Speaker 19: wall for her and I broke one of them. She got,
Speaker 19: she got, oh you know, she was upset, but not
Speaker 19: not sort of ridicut gulous, the angry. Well, yeah, she
Speaker 19: was upset about it. So I went on that China Finders,
Speaker 19: and so I think I think we sort of started drifting. Yeah,
Speaker 19: not so so tired after that. Not that after that
Speaker 19: wasn't that didn't cause it. That didn't cause the business
Speaker 19: at the school. You know, it just seemed also pedantic
Speaker 19: and silly, you know, and why I go on about it,
Speaker 19: you know, but months later I think it actually sort
Speaker 19: of stopped going to get it all together. Months later
Speaker 19: I actually got a call from them to say, oh,
Speaker 19: we found your plate, so I took it round to
Speaker 19: that and that sort of rekindered a little bit. But
Speaker 19: you know, then there's then it just sort of started
Speaker 19: along and then yeah, finally at this wedding.
Speaker 1: Thing was in episode fourteen. There were more developments to report.
Speaker 1: First up a visit by the New South Wales Police,
Speaker 1: but not Gary Shean, who has been in charge of
Speaker 1: the investigation since two thousand and nine. On Friday September
Speaker 1: six to Inspector Glenn Brown visited Sally Layden's Brisbane home
Speaker 1: to take possession of material for DNA testing, Marion's old
Speaker 1: ballet slippers.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Sally, You're welcome, Thank you.
Speaker 16: No worries people.
Speaker 3: Hi Glenn Allison, how are you very well?
Speaker 5: So are you a new man on board or you
Speaker 5: just not necessarily you're possibly just a messenger today, but
Speaker 5: I am a new manager of the Missing Person's Registry fantasy.
Speaker 1: I didn't know that.
Speaker 5: Congratulations and for other reasons today, but thought I would
Speaker 5: drop in and try and move this forward.
Speaker 1: Oh, that's wonderful. I well, thank you very much to that.
Speaker 1: And so will this be tested with all the unidentified
Speaker 1: that's great, every every the unidentified body we can get the.
Speaker 9: Yeah, would be great.
Speaker 1: And we're where to from here with the coroner and
Speaker 1: everything have we It's not.
Speaker 5: Something I still need to make that very clear that
Speaker 5: this is an investigation conducted by tweet Hea.
Speaker 4: It's not the missing Person's.
Speaker 5: Registry at help.
Speaker 1: So what's your role then?
Speaker 5: I am the manager of that registry, but the role
Speaker 5: of the missing persons, Well, we might try and organize
Speaker 5: something in the future, Okay, if you're happy with that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll be happy with that. Sally spoke to Detective
Speaker 1: Inspector Brown for more than an hour.
Speaker 4: Glenn has made the effort to come to my home
Speaker 4: and sit with me and talk with me about what's
Speaker 4: going on in the case. His purpose today was to
Speaker 4: come and get some ballet slippers that belong to my mum.
Speaker 4: They were given to my cousin and she had indicated
Speaker 4: to me that she had them still And it was
Speaker 4: just an idea that I had that we might actually
Speaker 4: have been able to get some DNA from those slippers,
Speaker 4: potentially of mum's DNA rather than them having just my DNA,
Speaker 4: and that he's going to he's taking those for assessment
Speaker 4: to see if he can get the DNA from them.
Speaker 4: One of the things he can help me with is
Speaker 4: trying to get my DNA put onto the National Missing
Speaker 4: Person's Database, and he said that he is going to
Speaker 4: help me to try and get that done. What will
Speaker 4: that do? Well, the National Missing Person's Database means that
Speaker 4: my DNA or Mum's DNA, if we can get it
Speaker 4: from the Slippers, will be run against all Jane does
Speaker 4: within Australia, So rather than just being on the New
Speaker 4: South Wales Missing Person's DNA list, it means that we
Speaker 4: can test it against a nationwide So.
Speaker 1: You'll be this he said, it would be against all
Speaker 1: the unidentified bodies. Now that includes a few bones that
Speaker 1: ever interesting. You can you tell us about those?
Speaker 4: Yeah, Look, there is a particular bone that we have
Speaker 4: come across in some news articles that was found in Ballana.
Speaker 4: It was tested against Bromwen Whitfield is my understanding, who
Speaker 4: was a woman who went missing from Lennox Heads in
Speaker 4: the eighties. It has been tested against her and was
Speaker 4: proven to be negative. But I would like that bone
Speaker 4: to be tested against my mum, being that we have
Speaker 4: evidence that some activity was being used in Byron Bay
Speaker 4: and in Grafton. So Balliner is right in the middle
Speaker 4: there between the two. So I think it's really important
Speaker 4: that we don't leave any stone unturned and check those bones,
Speaker 4: like if it's still sitting in the morgue in Glebe,
Speaker 4: it needs to be tested against my DNA to just
Speaker 4: cross off that box.
Speaker 1: And lastly, any I guess new Leads or I mean
Speaker 1: I gather you passed on a lot of information to
Speaker 1: Glenn of Leads to follow up.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I explained to Glenn that we have at
Speaker 4: the Lady Vanishers an anonymous tip line. I spoke about
Speaker 4: a tip that we had come in from a lady
Speaker 4: who'd written to us in German and I have shown
Speaker 4: him that document just so that he could have a
Speaker 4: reader that and an understanding of what we were receiving.
Speaker 4: He took interest in that and just sort of gave
Speaker 4: him a bit of a brief overview of how the
Speaker 4: podcast is actually assisting us with gaining publicity on the case.
Speaker 4: And it's really, you know that my life was really
Speaker 4: just to have people engaging in finding mum and finding
Speaker 4: out what's happened to her, and the more people that know,
Speaker 4: the more chance we've got her finding out some information.
Speaker 1: And did he have any I guess, any progress reports
Speaker 1: from his point that he could tell you.
Speaker 4: He's only been in that role for three weeks, so
Speaker 4: he's very new to the role, but he's quite excited
Speaker 4: by it and he's hoping for bigger, better things. From
Speaker 4: what I talk of what we had been a conversation
Speaker 4: to David.
Speaker 2: The reason Marion's ballet slippers have been taken for testing
Speaker 2: is because Selling has been liaising with the newly set
Speaker 2: up New South Wales Police Missing Persons Unit to have
Speaker 2: Marion Stean included on the National Criminal Investigation DNA database
Speaker 2: known as the NCIDD. After offering up the slippers for
Speaker 2: a possible DNA sample, Sally received the following response from
Speaker 2: Detective Sergeant Rachel Lennaz on Saturday, August twenty fourth, Hi.
Speaker 20: Sally, I hope to cover off on a few questions
Speaker 20: for you. You are not on the NCIDD database. However,
Speaker 20: I am awaiting or apply to see if you are
Speaker 20: on the NCIDDIFA database.
Speaker 2: The NCI double D is the National Criminal Investigation DNA database,
Speaker 2: which provides all police services and forensic scientists in Australia
Speaker 2: access to DNA gathered at crime scenes and during investigations
Speaker 2: to help solve cases. One of its key functions is
Speaker 2: to allow police to match genetic profiles from two or
Speaker 2: more unsolved crime scenes, linking seemingly unrelated cases. The NCI
Speaker 2: Double D hyphen I AFA database was launched only last year.
Speaker 2: The IFA stands for Integrated Forensic Analysis. The purpose of
Speaker 2: this database is specifically to take samples from family and
Speaker 2: relatives to allow advanced direct matching with evidence collected by
Speaker 2: or given to police. Detective Lennaz then continues.
Speaker 20: In relation to your mother's ballet slippers, I believe you
Speaker 20: have possession of the ballet slippers. Is that correct? We
Speaker 20: would like to collect the ballet slippers to ascertain if
Speaker 20: we can retrieve a sample of your mother's DNA. Your cousin,
Speaker 20: Prue that utilized the ballet slippers. We will need to
Speaker 20: get a DNA sample from her for comparison you've indicated previously.
Speaker 20: She is happy to do this, as indicated by easy DNA.
Speaker 20: The testing may result in the destruction of the slippers.
Speaker 20: Are you okay with this, Your DNA is currently on
Speaker 20: the correct index and is being run which does take
Speaker 20: time against any unidentified bodies and human remains within New
Speaker 20: South Wales.
Speaker 1: Another new lead came when Sally and her team of
Speaker 1: online super sluthes happened across one of Marion's former colleagues,
Speaker 1: who notified us of another potential love interest to pursue.
Speaker 1: Mandy Jennings was twenty four when she went to work
Speaker 1: in Marion's classroom at the Southport School.
Speaker 18: I was hired as a teacher's aide in April of
Speaker 18: nineteen ninety five, and I'm not really sure what happened
Speaker 18: with the previous TA, because a TA is always assisting
Speaker 18: a teacher. I believe in the in the reception because
Speaker 18: it's full on with four and five year old boys't imagine.
Speaker 16: I know they're adorable.
Speaker 18: And so I answered an ad April ninety five and
Speaker 18: Luke Glover was my interview me and he was really,
Speaker 18: really nice.
Speaker 16: I really liked him.
Speaker 18: And one of the requirements of the job was to
Speaker 18: be able to play the piano, and I could play
Speaker 18: the piano, dear. I was so excited because I thought,
Speaker 18: how can you imagine getting a job where I can
Speaker 18: actually play the piano and help out and then him
Speaker 18: play with boys in the classroom.
Speaker 1: And so when did you meet Marian?
Speaker 16: What are your first impressions.
Speaker 18: She was really friendly, she was like everyone's described her.
Speaker 18: She was like this Laura Ashley lady and you know,
Speaker 18: ninety five. So and she was classy and she was
Speaker 18: a great teacher. And I just was blown by because
Speaker 18: I'm American, I'm not going to and I'd only been
Speaker 18: in Australia for two and a half years, not even
Speaker 18: quite two and a half years, and so this is
Speaker 18: sort of my first experience being in an Australian school.
Speaker 16: It was a big learning curve from me, very different
Speaker 16: from anything that I grew up with. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Mandy only worked with Marion the six or seven months
Speaker 1: before she had to quit suffering severe morning sickness.
Speaker 16: So I was sick pretty much with all of my pregnancy.
Speaker 18: So yeah, and it was so sad because you know,
Speaker 18: having to at the end of the school year and
Speaker 18: leave is not really nice to do to a teacher,
Speaker 18: and Marian was not very happy about that, you know,
Speaker 18: but it's fine because we're still friends after that.
Speaker 16: So what about her relationships with the king's father's. Did
Speaker 16: you see any of that, Yeah.
Speaker 7: I did, well.
Speaker 16: I mean she was really friendly with all the parents
Speaker 16: and which was great.
Speaker 18: I did notice there was a few, well one in particular,
Speaker 18: that she seemed to really take a shine to.
Speaker 1: And no, it's not the pilot we've been looking for,
Speaker 1: but someone else.
Speaker 18: I remembered very clearly that he was there at the school.
Speaker 18: And I don't remember where the mother was, Like I
Speaker 18: thought she was overseas. I thought maybe Marian told me
Speaker 18: she lived overseas, But anyway, I just remember she would
Speaker 18: blush when she talked to him, and she just really
Speaker 18: liked him as a mean, as a good friend.
Speaker 10: But maybe I.
Speaker 18: Wondered if there was more end she always seemed to
Speaker 18: really cater to him when you would come into class,
Speaker 18: when he was a really hands on father, which was great,
Speaker 18: And maybe that's because the mom was wherever I am. Yeah,
Speaker 18: so I.
Speaker 16: Remember I don't know how allowed to say this, but
Speaker 16: I remember he had a very feminine name for a man.
Speaker 16: It's like Marian had said it in my ear and
Speaker 16: I remembered it.
Speaker 1: We've been trying to learn the identity of a particular
Speaker 1: dentist linked to Marian if you recall, after Marian changed
Speaker 1: her name to Florabella Natalia Marian Ramachel by Deepole shortly
Speaker 1: before her trip, she also updated her passport. To do so,
Speaker 1: she had to have her new passport photograph verified and
Speaker 1: signed by someone she knew and trusted, someone who would
Speaker 1: officially claim that the image and Florabella were one and
Speaker 1: the same person, and perhaps who wouldn't question her about it.
Speaker 1: We know the person who signed Marian's passport photo was
Speaker 1: a dentist, but which dentist. We don't have that dentist
Speaker 1: name that New Soup ask police do Yeah, they won't
Speaker 1: tell us, so we might just have to just find out.
Speaker 16: So think about it.
Speaker 18: Why would you ask your dentist to do something like that?
Speaker 16: Who knows the dentists well enough to even ask him
Speaker 16: something like that? Well, she knew him? Well, I mean,
Speaker 16: this is just me saying that. I can be completely wrong,
Speaker 16: but I think if it's a dentist, she definitely knew him.
Speaker 15: And you know, I think.
Speaker 18: If you're going to ask someone to help you, you're
Speaker 18: going to ask someone that no one would even think
Speaker 18: that you would be connected to.
Speaker 1: Well, also that they wouldn't necessarily care that you're doing this,
Speaker 1: whereas next to Kim would and what questions?
Speaker 16: I have questions. And also I think there's a period of.
Speaker 1: Time that you have to have known them for you
Speaker 1: to do that.
Speaker 18: And I mean I've witnessed people's passports and I know
Speaker 18: what they require quite a lot of information.
Speaker 16: Actually, you have to know somebody for I think twelve months, yes, yeah,
Speaker 16: it has to be at least twelve months.
Speaker 18: If you go to your normal dentist and you go, hey,
Speaker 18: I want to do a name change, and like they
Speaker 18: see you, what maybe twice a year, maybe once a year,
Speaker 18: I don't know, So it just it makes no sense
Speaker 18: if if she went to some.
Speaker 16: Other dentist. But anyway, so yeah, so that's definitely.
Speaker 3: Something that we need to pursue.
Speaker 1: His name was doctor Hillary Knight, and fortunately he had
Speaker 1: no hesitation in talking to us. I'm investigating the disappearance
Speaker 1: of Marian Barter. Well, I don't know if you remember her.
Speaker 10: Yeah, so I'm.
Speaker 9: Familiar with I'm familiar with like the current stories that
Speaker 9: have appeared on TV. But she was my son who's
Speaker 9: now twenty nine. She was his preschool teacher.
Speaker 1: Tsir exactly, well, speaking to a teacher, ade and she
Speaker 1: remembered you. I don't know if you remember her. That
Speaker 1: was missus Jennings, Mandy Jenny, So she was younger. And
Speaker 1: the reason why it piqued our interest because we found
Speaker 1: that you were a dentist and she had a dentist
Speaker 1: witness her name change. I don't know if you were,
Speaker 1: if you're aware of the whole story, but she changed
Speaker 1: her name in nineteen ninety seven, and we thought.
Speaker 21: Well, yeah, so it would have been nineteen ninety five
Speaker 21: that I had anything to do with her, which was
Speaker 21: the year that my son was at school.
Speaker 9: So when did she change your name? That's nineteen ninety.
Speaker 1: Seven, yes, And we thought you might have been the
Speaker 1: witness on that, but it sounds like you weren't.
Speaker 9: I don't think so. Look, I've been trying to rack
Speaker 9: my brain about Marion, and I've discussed it with my son,
Speaker 9: of course, who remembers it quite well. But I can't
Speaker 9: remember witnessing anything for her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it would have been two years later. Did
Speaker 1: you only have dealings with the when she was teaching
Speaker 1: bo She.
Speaker 9: Was a pretty social sort of teacher like. She organized
Speaker 9: a few dinners with parents and tea parties for the boys,
Speaker 9: of an afternoon. So she's very memorable. You know, she
Speaker 9: was a memorable teacher. And I've just been racking my
Speaker 9: brain if she ever asked me to witness something for her,
Speaker 9: would it had been like a passport application or something
Speaker 9: like that.
Speaker 10: I suppose that would have had to have been witnessed.
Speaker 1: Well, we haven't got the document. All we know is
Speaker 1: it was a dentist, so we thought it might have
Speaker 1: been new but maybe it was a different dentist. I mean,
Speaker 1: you obviously had a good relationship with her because she
Speaker 1: recalled you fondly.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 15: So yeah, apart from that, I can't help you know, doctor.
Speaker 1: Knight recalls Marion being unlike any other teacher he came across.
Speaker 9: Oh great, Yeah, yeah, a little bit eccentric in what way? Well,
Speaker 9: for instance, having tea parties for the boys of an
Speaker 9: afternoon quite probably an just to look it out of
Speaker 9: the ordinary.
Speaker 10: Yeah, but you know, she was very.
Speaker 9: Dedicated and yeah, she was good son as a preschool teacher,
Speaker 9: very engaged.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and bo remember so Finnly as well obviously.
Speaker 10: Yeah.
Speaker 9: I discussed it with him recently when something came on
Speaker 9: the TV just recently about the story, and we mentioned
Speaker 9: it and yeah, he said he thinks that Marion was
Speaker 9: one of his favorite teachers.
Speaker 5: Wow.
Speaker 1: Great, Yeah, isn't that nice? Isn't that you know, to
Speaker 1: be able to remember.
Speaker 9: Back that far twenty five years ago? Like, I've got
Speaker 9: a hard job pulling memories back from that long ago.
Speaker 10: You know, a few things sort of stick in my head.
Speaker 1: I think you'd remember if you were.
Speaker 9: I think so, I think so. But I think to
Speaker 9: get that document. Is there any chance of getting the
Speaker 9: document who actually did signers?
Speaker 1: We're trying, and you know at this stage there might
Speaker 1: be an inquest, so we'll definitely get it then. Oh,
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if you knew the other pair,
Speaker 1: it's very well. But there was also one of the
Speaker 1: boys there whose father was a pilot as potentially someone
Speaker 1: that was a love interest for Marian. Do you remember
Speaker 1: any pilots and the parents.
Speaker 9: No, I don't think it was any in those might
Speaker 9: have been a year after him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it must have been, but you wouldn't. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: probably only know the way. She was only there three
Speaker 1: years from ninety four to ninety seven, so Bo was
Speaker 1: there in ninety five. But there's anything else that jogs
Speaker 1: your memory or anything, And if it's okay. Also, if
Speaker 1: Bo would like to speak to us, you know, for
Speaker 1: the podcast at this aspect, just getting you know, the
Speaker 1: memories of the time. You know, it's like with anything,
Speaker 1: we're just you know, it's like a jigsaw puzz and
Speaker 1: we've got all these different.
Speaker 10: Pieces and different pieces. Yeah, and with you, it's.
Speaker 1: Great to get that clarification that it's very very well,
Speaker 1: it's obviously not you that was the witness because you
Speaker 1: would remember. And also if you only had really dealings
Speaker 1: with her in ninety five, it didn't happen until ninety seven.
Speaker 9: So unless Yeah, and I've just been trying to think,
Speaker 9: I can't remember specifically, and I would remember, like if
Speaker 9: she'd ask me to sign a document, you would.
Speaker 1: And I believe police may have even spoken to the dentist.
Speaker 9: So right, right, you're the first person who's contact with me.
Speaker 9: And I haven't really spoken to any of the other
Speaker 9: parents at this stage because they don't have.
Speaker 10: Anything to do with them from that, you know, that
Speaker 10: long ago.
Speaker 9: You know, the only person I've really spoken to is though,
Speaker 9: you know, my son.
Speaker 1: Also, we've finally been able to speak with Leslie Loveday.
Speaker 1: She was the former neighbor who Marian lived with in
Speaker 1: her final weeks on the Gold Coast before going overseas.
Speaker 15: Marian was beautiful, do you know. She had never come
Speaker 15: over home unless she had a bunch of flowers and
Speaker 15: my mum was sick. She'd go in and sit on
Speaker 15: the bed and talk to her in there, and she'd
Speaker 15: always bring, like mom, a bunch of flowers. Not best friend,
Speaker 15: she had a couple of other best friends, but we
Speaker 15: were very friendly. So she was very good to me
Speaker 15: when my mom passed away. Yeah, and we got quite close.
Speaker 1: But Marian had leased a house next to Leslie at
Speaker 1: Ashmore before buying her home at Marinda Court in Southport.
Speaker 1: When she was preparing to sell up, she moved to
Speaker 1: Leslie's home. Sometimes when Marian was at work, Leslie would
Speaker 1: go to a friend's Southport house to pack crockery into
Speaker 1: boxes for her. It was an enjoyable and convenient setup,
Speaker 1: and Leslie was not one to pry.
Speaker 15: I'm not a person that delves into people's of fears
Speaker 15: and lives. Marian went her own way at home and
Speaker 15: I did my thing. We only met up at breakfast
Speaker 15: and dinner.
Speaker 1: There was one night though, that Leslie found unusual.
Speaker 15: She was staying at home with me. She said she
Speaker 15: was going over to stay at Sally's. But I said, fine, okay,
Speaker 15: I'll see you when you come back home. So that
Speaker 15: night Sally rang me and said could she speak to
Speaker 15: her mum to Marian, and I said, I'm sorry, Sally,
Speaker 15: Marian's staying at your place and she said, no, she's
Speaker 15: not here either, So where she went I don't know.
Speaker 1: So where was Marion that night? And why did she
Speaker 1: lie about her whereabouts? Leslie never asked because it was
Speaker 1: none of her business.
Speaker 15: Unless people tell me things. I never asked because I
Speaker 15: think your own life, it's your own privacy. You don't
Speaker 15: delving and say oh, what did you do this, or
Speaker 15: why did you go there? Or I thought she'd tell
Speaker 15: me if she wanted to. Well, she mustn't have wanted to.
Speaker 1: So Marian had other nights out too, but these ones
Speaker 1: were to say goodbye.
Speaker 15: And she come home from the parents' night out and
Speaker 15: she was just so proud because the parents were so
Speaker 15: proud of her. They give her like beautiful things that
Speaker 15: she took with and she said, they said such lovely
Speaker 15: things about us.
Speaker 1: So while most of Marion's things were sold or put
Speaker 1: into storage, some things were left behind with Leslie, the
Speaker 1: sheets and donna from her bed, a desk and hall stand,
Speaker 1: which were collected by Sally, her brother Owen, and father Stewart.
Speaker 1: And Marian gifted Leslie with an ornamental porcelain chicken.
Speaker 15: She said to me, you take that home because I
Speaker 15: want you to have that to remember me by.
Speaker 1: The Marian spoke of her intention to ride the Orange
Speaker 1: Express and visit England to meet up with an exchange
Speaker 1: teacher whom she'd met in Australia, with the hope of
Speaker 1: finding work herself. Leslie has clear memories of the day
Speaker 1: she took Marion to the bus station so she could
Speaker 1: catch a ride to Brisbane Airport.
Speaker 15: Oh was here, shout forward. It was the old it's
Speaker 15: where the worker's carb is. It used to be a
Speaker 15: bus stop.
Speaker 1: They struggled with Marion's mouth of luggage.
Speaker 15: Probably four ports and a couple of bays, because I
Speaker 15: can still see it. We're standing there. We were so early.
Speaker 15: We were just so early for the bus, and I said,
Speaker 15: you can't do anything because we got all this luggage
Speaker 15: we have to look after. And I think that when
Speaker 15: we put it on the bus, the driver looked this
Speaker 15: much just to oak it off. It was going to Brisbane,
Speaker 15: I know that, and we were laughing about it when
Speaker 15: she got on the bus, and that's what I remember
Speaker 15: last is her face at the window.
Speaker 1: Leslie received a postcard of Marion's travels and presumed her
Speaker 1: friend was having a wonderful time.
Speaker 15: The only time I got suspicious when when Sally rang
Speaker 15: and she said, Leslie, have you heard anything from mum?
Speaker 15: And I said no, and she said, well, I haven't
Speaker 15: heard from her. The last time I spoke to her
Speaker 15: was like and I haven't heard anything since.
Speaker 1: In episode fourteen, we reported on an anonymous tip we
Speaker 1: received from someone who claimed to have had a relationship
Speaker 1: with a man calling himself for nand remarkable. We call
Speaker 1: our web slute. Joni found a personal ad in a
Speaker 1: French Australian newspaper in nineteen ninety four seeking a woman
Speaker 1: for marriage, listing a post office box and phone number
Speaker 1: not far from where Marion lived at the time.
Speaker 2: We found only one f Remachel in the world who
Speaker 2: was the same age as the author of that personal ad.
Speaker 2: He also matches the self description in the ad. He
Speaker 2: is a former professional footballer and he is from Luxembourg.
Speaker 2: Marion's new name was Florabella Natalia Marion, Remachel Marion or
Speaker 2: Florabella or someone else filled out a passenger card returning
Speaker 2: to Australia after disappearing, listing her occupation as home duties, Luxembourg.
Speaker 2: The name Remickel is so rare on the planet a
Speaker 2: little over one hundred people share it in nineteen ninety
Speaker 2: seven before Google. It's difficult to understand how Marian could
Speaker 2: have come across such a unique and rare name that
Speaker 2: alone chosen it for her new identity. It could all
Speaker 2: be extraordinary coincidence. We understand no one with the name
Speaker 2: Remachel has entered or left Australia since nineteen ninety besides Florabella.
Speaker 1: Anyway, this tipster claimed to know mister Remarkl. Whether it
Speaker 1: was a real one or an impostor we still don't know.
Speaker 22: I was still very young bernamet fa Nando Marco in
Speaker 22: a professional context. It came from a wealthy family that
Speaker 22: financially supported him. Shortly after our first meeting he became
Speaker 22: a couple.
Speaker 2: The tipster does not give a name, but includes information
Speaker 2: suggesting she did know Fernandre Michel. She also writes in
Speaker 2: German we are being careful not to reveal too much
Speaker 2: in animation to keep her identity secret.
Speaker 16: I was an adviser on issues.
Speaker 22: All this I believed because I had succumbed to his
Speaker 22: charm and his worldly lifestyle. I assert and experienced it
Speaker 22: myself that he has used his charm and his worldly behavior,
Speaker 22: his psychological knowledge optimally for the manipulation of other people.
Speaker 22: I could not believe I wasn't a man who had
Speaker 22: just used me to achieve his intended career goal.
Speaker 1: It would be great if that anonymous tipster from three
Speaker 1: years ago could get in touch. They may have some
Speaker 1: valuable insights.
Speaker 2: And that brings us to the end of catch up
Speaker 2: episode number five. Stay tuned for more.
Speaker 1: If he knew Marian or have any information about her
Speaker 1: or her whereabouts. With love to hear from you, our
Speaker 1: website is sevennews dot com dot a you forward slash
Speaker 1: the Lady Vanishers and you can also message us here
Speaker 1: and if you like what you're hearing, don't forget to subscribe.
Speaker 1: Please rate and review our series. It helps new listeners
Speaker 1: find us. Presenter and executive producer Alison Sandy, Presenter and
Speaker 1: investigative journalist Brian Seymour, producer and writer Sally Eels, Sound
Speaker 1: design Mark Wright, transcripts Charlie Dally Watkins and Alice Sinclair.
Speaker 1: Graphics Jason Blankart the theme and much of the music
Speaker 1: by Nicholas Gasparini at the Dark Piano dot com. This
Speaker 1: is a seven years production.
Speaker 15: OO