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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast with doctor Justin Coolson, the

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Speaker 1: podcast for the time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 1: Now my name is Susy Luke's with me as well,

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Speaker 1: and today we're discussing a question that came through from Angelique,

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Speaker 1: which is all about mobile phones at school. Doctor Justin

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Speaker 1: Coolson joins us in the studio and Angela's as a question, Justin.

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Speaker 2: This is right up your alley.

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Speaker 1: I'm ready mobile phones at school yay or nay, as if.

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Speaker 2: They're the only two options that Justin's going to adhere to.

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Speaker 3: This is such a provocative thing. Now some background on this,

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Speaker 3: and I'm so glad that Angela exis. I'm guessing she

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Speaker 3: saw that in the news. In Victoria, there's now a

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Speaker 3: blanket ban across well look, it's an opt in system,

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Speaker 3: but basically there's a blanket ban for primary schools, not

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Speaker 3: high schools, primary schools on mobile devices. No mobile device

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Speaker 3: is allowed in state primary schools in Victoria. As a

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Speaker 3: result of this big inquiry, the New South Wales government

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Speaker 3: are considering it for New South Wales as well. And

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Speaker 3: every now and again you hear a principle pop up

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Speaker 3: in the news somewhere saying we've banned mobile phones across

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Speaker 3: the board, and we just think that this is what

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Speaker 3: our school community needs.

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Speaker 1: Kindergartens.

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Speaker 4: That was my first thing.

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Speaker 3: How many seven year olds really need a mobile phone?

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Speaker 3: The interesting thing here is, and I recognize that I

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Speaker 3: run the risk of parent shaming here, it's not my intention. Okay,

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Speaker 3: if you're a parent your seven year old has a

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Speaker 3: mobile phone, I'm sure that you've got a really good

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Speaker 3: reason for it.

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Speaker 4: As Luke's mobile.

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Speaker 3: Phone goes on in the background, I'm sure I've got

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Speaker 3: a great reason for it. But the reality is, most

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Speaker 3: kids in primary school really don't need a mobile phone,

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Speaker 3: but once one's got one, all the other kids want.

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Speaker 5: And you know, with parents being as busy as we are,

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Speaker 5: and many families you're either a single parent or you're

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Speaker 5: a double income family where both parents are at work

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Speaker 5: and you want to be able to contact the kids,

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Speaker 5: and it's so convenient, let's face.

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Speaker 3: It, not to mention all the apps where you can

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Speaker 3: just track where the kids are to make sure they

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Speaker 3: really are at school when they so they were going

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Speaker 3: to be there. There's a there's a bunch of arguments

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Speaker 3: for having mobile phones. Even with younger kids, although I

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Speaker 3: still don't think it's necessary. I also hear parents with

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Speaker 3: children who have special needs. Maybe they've got some mental

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Speaker 3: health issues, some anxieties, and they really want their kids

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Speaker 3: to be able to contact them at any time because.

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Speaker 2: That you can call me if you need me in

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Speaker 2: that situation. So I can understand that they could be

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Speaker 2: comfort for both the child and the parents in that scenario.

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Speaker 4: So that's my empathy piece right there.

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Speaker 3: But for primary school kids in particular, I just think

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Speaker 3: this is the right decision.

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Speaker 4: I'm not into banning.

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Speaker 3: It's typically something that I argue really strongly against. And

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Speaker 3: I'm also, as you said earlier, Luke, I'm not the

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Speaker 3: kind of guy that says yes or no, Well it

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Speaker 3: has to be one of the two. Usually I'll find

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Speaker 3: a middle way somewhere. What I do know is that

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Speaker 3: when I talk to principles, when I look at what

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Speaker 3: little evidence there is, and the reality is there is

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Speaker 3: not a lot of evidence, and what evidence is out

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Speaker 3: there is not brilliantly done scientifically, But the evidence that

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Speaker 3: is out there and the anecdotal conversations that I've had

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Speaker 3: with principles and parents.

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Speaker 4: Is pretty much this.

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Speaker 3: When you tell kids that they can't have phones at school,

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Speaker 3: they concentrate better, they're more active, they're more socially engaged.

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Speaker 3: There's not a single domain that you could measure that

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Speaker 3: doesn't improve with the removal of the devices for those

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Speaker 3: six hours between nine and three.

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Speaker 2: I can, and as a grown up who has a

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Speaker 2: habit of looking at my device a lot throughout the day,

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Speaker 2: that's just the mere fact that you can if you're

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Speaker 2: waiting on something, if you're thinking about someone's going to

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Speaker 2: message me, and then you check it, or you want

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Speaker 2: to check it all the time. And so what you're

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Speaker 2: saying is when there's absolutely no choice to check it, well,

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Speaker 2: that stuff doesn't occupy occupy your brain in the same

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Speaker 2: level because you just have no choice of it.

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Speaker 3: So my kids go to a school where the rule

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Speaker 3: was brought in that there's no mobile devices.

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Speaker 4: I'm talking about high school kids.

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Speaker 3: Now they're allowed to have a device, but if they're

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Speaker 3: caught using it, they're asked to put it away straight away.

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Speaker 3: There are no devices in the playground. And we actually

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Speaker 3: made the switch to the school in the fairly recent past.

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Speaker 3: My year nine daughter came to me after a couple

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Speaker 3: of days at the school and said, Dad, I don't

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Speaker 3: think I'm going to bother taking my phone to school anymore.

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Speaker 3: I'm the only one that's got one out, and i

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Speaker 3: actually feel like I'm a bit rude and I'm ignoring

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Speaker 3: everyone when I'm on it.

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Speaker 4: I love it.

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Speaker 2: What I know?

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Speaker 3: What's fifteen year old girl says that about their phone.

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Speaker 5: I looked at her.

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Speaker 4: I said, if you feel good about.

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Speaker 2: That, that's your choice. I'll respect it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah again, when we look at the research evidence, what

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Speaker 3: happens is when you're focused on something and your phone

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Speaker 3: goes ding and pulls you away from it, That little

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Speaker 3: red notification comes up, the screen begins to glow so welcomingly.

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Speaker 4: What happens is your brain shuts down what it's.

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Speaker 3: Doing and it diverts attention across to the device. Once

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Speaker 3: you put the device down, seventy six minutes later, you

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Speaker 3: go back to what you were doing before, if you

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Speaker 3: can remember what it was, and your brain has to

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Speaker 3: go through that whole processing thing to get back to

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Speaker 3: where you are up to to get going again, by

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Speaker 3: which time your phone has gone off again, and the

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Speaker 3: quality of our learning just isn't as good.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Again, there's not a heap of research in Australian schools

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Speaker 3: and that's what I'm focusing on here Ossie schools and

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Speaker 3: the research there's just not heaps. But what it does

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Speaker 3: seem to indicate, especially for high school kids, is they're

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Speaker 3: going to concentrate better, they're going to process more deeply,

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Speaker 3: they're going to retain more effectively the information that they're

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Speaker 3: supposed to be learning at school if they don't have

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Speaker 3: their devices. Now, the reality is they're sitting at school

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Speaker 3: and they're still connected to the Internet through their PC

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Speaker 3: or through their ipaddle, through the whatever other screen they're

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Speaker 3: using for their learning. But it seems that the idea

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Speaker 3: that we should minimize access to devices and particularly phones

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Speaker 3: during school hours and maybe even during after school hours,

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Speaker 3: I think it is actually in the best interest of

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Speaker 3: the kids.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think as a parent, I certainly like it

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Speaker 1: when mych are looking at me when I talk to them,

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Speaker 1: just I don't know if that's strange for these days,

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Speaker 1: but I do like it when I feel like I've

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Speaker 1: got their attention. So I don't know why I would

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Speaker 1: put them in a scenario with a different adult where

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Speaker 1: they're going to be distracted by a phone. And I agree,

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Speaker 1: I understand that there's circumstances where you might need a

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Speaker 1: child to have a phone so that after school you

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Speaker 1: can contact them and make a phone call. But I

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Speaker 1: know even in our primary school they're very very strict

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Speaker 1: about mobile phones, and even this year they had an

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Speaker 1: issue of bullying on the playground because of a photo

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Speaker 1: that was taken on a phone during school hours. So

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Speaker 1: all of this about concentration and learning is really only

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Speaker 1: one side of the mobile phone in school's debate, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: There's the bullying side as well, it is.

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Speaker 3: And we've talked about all the reasons that you might

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Speaker 3: want your kids to have a phone at school, and

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Speaker 3: I think that there are some legitimate reasons there. I

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Speaker 3: don't know that they're strong enough. I think that we

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Speaker 3: can get around those issues and those obstacles. Certainly, the

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Speaker 3: advantages to not having them are very strong, and that's

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Speaker 3: social aspect. I mean, the kids have got their devices

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Speaker 3: out out of school and they can still do that

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Speaker 3: kind of stuff.

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Speaker 4: They can bully, they can send in.

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Speaker 3: Appropriate images, they can get up to all sorts of

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Speaker 3: no good outside of school hours. But when they're not

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Speaker 3: on their devices at school, you certainly reduced the opportunity

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Speaker 3: for them to do it there, and again that's a plus.

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Speaker 4: I like to be a little bit cautercultural.

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Speaker 3: I like to go against the grain a little bit

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Speaker 3: with these kinds of conversations. But in this case, I

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Speaker 3: just can't see too many great reasons for encouraging schools

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Speaker 3: to give kids access to their phones.

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Speaker 4: I just don't think there's a strong argument for it.

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Speaker 2: There's somebody that I know who wanted their child to

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Speaker 2: have a phone because of a situation in there for

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Speaker 2: them to be able to call the child when they

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Speaker 2: needed to get ahold of them. But they didn't want

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Speaker 2: them to be able to get caught up in all

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Speaker 2: the stuff that we've been talking about, so they got

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Speaker 2: them anochia thirty two times.

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Speaker 1: That's something I.

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Speaker 5: Learned from you.

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Speaker 1: Smart parents give their kids dumb phones. That's a doctor

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Speaker 1: justin Coilson live.

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Speaker 3: And it's harder and harder to find dumb phones to

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Speaker 3: give your kids Amazon. But but there are a range

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Speaker 3: of other products that are on the market now I

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Speaker 3: won't name them here, but there's a range of other

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Speaker 3: products that are on the market whereby your kids can

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Speaker 3: have access to you, or you can track them, you

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Speaker 3: can do the stuff to reduce your own anxiety need

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Speaker 3: if need be.

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Speaker 4: Those products are out there.

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Speaker 3: They're relatively inexpensive, certainly a lot cheaper than a smartphone.

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Speaker 3: And then again there's that other extraordinary technology where you

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Speaker 3: can call the office and ask the office staff to

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Speaker 3: go and get your child from class if something is

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Speaker 3: that serious. You know, we always have that failsafe and

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Speaker 3: I think that's a pretty handy way to go.

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Speaker 1: Great conversation to be had. Doctor Justin Coulson has been

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Speaker 1: our guest talking about this. You can find out more

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Speaker 1: at Happy Families dot com dot au. Thanks Angelique for

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Speaker 1: your question. If you caen to have doctor Justin Coilson

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Speaker 1: come and speak at your school or corporate event, find

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Speaker 1: out more details at his website Justin Coilson dot com.

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Speaker 5: M