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Speaker 1: A little while ago, I had a conversation with a

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Speaker 1: woman who has literally been labeled the worst mother in

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Speaker 1: the world. Her name is Leonor Skanazi. She is the

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Speaker 1: founder of the Let Grow movement, and a few years

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Speaker 1: back she allowed her nine year old son to catch

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Speaker 1: the subway in New York City home alone. Hello and

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Speaker 1: welcome to the Happy Families Podcast, Real Parenting Solutions every

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Speaker 1: day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. We are Justin

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Speaker 1: and Kylie Coulson. Kylie, you've been to New York City,

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Speaker 1: You've ridden the subway. Would you let your nine year

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Speaker 1: old child catch a train on the subway? Solo? I'm

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Speaker 1: putting you under the microscope here. You're looking at me like,

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Speaker 1: why do you have to ask that question? That's not

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Speaker 1: what you'd read on It just popped into my head.

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Speaker 2: So, having done it a number of times now, I

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Speaker 2: would say that depending on what station I was dropping

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Speaker 2: my child off at and what station they were getting

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Speaker 2: off at would make a difference to my answer.

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Speaker 1: Would being with them also make it?

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Speaker 2: Nine's pretty young, and yes I know that as a

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Speaker 2: forty five year old woman, I was pretty nervous getting

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Speaker 2: on and off those trains and trying to work out

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Speaker 2: lines and following colors, and it was a lot to

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Speaker 2: take in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, obviously you're not familiar with it at all,

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Speaker 1: and the Skinnazi has lived in New York City and

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Speaker 1: so therefore it wasn't nearly as scary for them. But

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Speaker 1: I got the chance to talk with her. This is

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Speaker 1: one of the most influential women in parenting in the

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Speaker 1: world these days. She's done some great work with Jonathan

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Speaker 1: Hate and his work around the Anxious Generation. And I

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Speaker 1: asked her when she wrote this article about the decision

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Speaker 1: to let her nine year old do it and was

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Speaker 1: subsequently labeled the worst mother in the world, I just

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Speaker 1: kind of said to it, well, putting a kid on

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Speaker 1: a subway in New York City feels risky. So I

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Speaker 1: asked to give us the setup for how she let

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Speaker 1: him do it.

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Speaker 3: Some kids love certain things, like there are kids who

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Speaker 3: love cars or dollars or whatever. He loved the subway

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Speaker 3: loves you know, he loved public transportation. But we wanted

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Speaker 3: to make sure he understood that. You know that you're

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Speaker 3: reading the map and the green line, which is the

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Speaker 3: line that he was going to have to take. That's

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Speaker 3: the four, five, and six train. For anybody who's been

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Speaker 3: to New York City, that that was the train you

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Speaker 3: would have to take, and you know this is the

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Speaker 3: stop you get off on. And then of course we're

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Speaker 3: always on that extremely slow bus, so he knew that

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Speaker 3: he would have to wait for the bus at the

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Speaker 3: bus stop. I don't recall telling him this that time,

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Speaker 3: but I've always told my kids that you can talk

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Speaker 3: to strangers, you can't go off with strangers. So if

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Speaker 3: you if you need help from somebody, certainly you can

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Speaker 3: ask a question of somebody, but you can't get into

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Speaker 3: somebody's car. You can't go off with somebody. And other

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Speaker 3: than that, we prepared him with a couple of things.

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Speaker 3: We gave him a subway map twenty dollars just in

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Speaker 3: case he needed something went really terribly wrong and needed

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Speaker 3: take a cab or something quarters because there were still

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Speaker 3: some pyphons in the subway, and a Metro card, which

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Speaker 3: is the card that you slide through the entryway to

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Speaker 3: get into the trains to pay your fare. And so

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Speaker 3: I'd say that we didn't think we were crazy because

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Speaker 3: we were preparing him and because it wasn't something that

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Speaker 3: he was saying no, Mom, I don't want to do this.

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Speaker 3: This was his idea and something that we had all

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Speaker 3: discussed and decided he was ready for.

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Speaker 2: So when you listen to her, it's clearly obvious. Number One,

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Speaker 2: they use the trains regularly. This is not something that's

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Speaker 2: new to him, and he loves public transport. And number two,

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Speaker 2: the thing that really stands out to me is he's

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Speaker 2: a mom who's absolutely pre armed her son with everything

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Speaker 2: that he needs to be safe.

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Speaker 1: He's prepared, she's prepared, They've walked him through it, they've

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Speaker 1: done dry runs, practiced.

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Speaker 2: And the thing that stands out to me, having done

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Speaker 2: that and having had my own personal experiences that have

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Speaker 2: not ended up that way, is he, as a nine

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Speaker 2: year old, walks out that door with more confidence and

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Speaker 2: feels empowered because somebody believes in him. Somebody believes that

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Speaker 2: he's actually capable of doing that, and that that's the

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Speaker 2: power in what she's given him.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So there's a lot of noise being made, and I'm

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Speaker 1: one of the people making noise about it. Is we've

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Speaker 1: got to help our kids to take more risks, to

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Speaker 1: be engaged in risky play. You keep unrolling your eyes

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Speaker 1: when I say it but I'm going to say it

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Speaker 1: again right now. Anyway, our children need to be able

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Speaker 1: to do things that could land them in hospital if

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Speaker 1: they go wrong on at least a weekly basis, whether

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Speaker 1: it's climbing a rock wall, which is what one of

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Speaker 1: our kids do, or going for a bike ride, or

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Speaker 1: just doing stuff that could land you in a little

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Speaker 1: bit of strife. The whole thing here is that children

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Speaker 1: do better and feel better about life when we expressed

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Speaker 1: confidence in them and set them up to go and

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Speaker 1: do it. Our job is to make ourselves redundant and

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Speaker 1: to give our kids the opportunity to push against those boundaries.

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Speaker 2: You did something similar to this in Parental Guidance a

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Speaker 2: couple of years ago, and what I found really really

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Speaker 2: interesting was how each of the kids handled themselves to

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Speaker 2: the point where one of them actually stopped at mac

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Speaker 2: has brought himself, missed a couple of buses, but he

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Speaker 2: wasn't fame.

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Speaker 1: I can't remember how old he was, but I think

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Speaker 1: he was maybe eleven, and he had to catch a

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Speaker 1: bus from Brisbane to like forty minutes down the road

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Speaker 1: to Logan home. It was a lot a big deal.

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Speaker 1: It was a big deal, and he's just gone and

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Speaker 1: brought himself from Jakdoms and it was great. So lanoscan

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Speaker 1: as he is, is, like I said, super influential. We're

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Speaker 1: going to play the entire interview on Saturday, but I

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Speaker 1: just want to play this as well, because this really

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Speaker 1: stood out to me when I interviewed her. I said

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Speaker 1: to her, people always say, but what if things go wrong?

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Speaker 1: What if you'd put him on the train and there

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Speaker 1: was an emergency? Things played out friendly. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: great that he was okay, but what if, what if?

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Speaker 1: What if? This was her response.

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Speaker 3: First of all, you can never say you're going to

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Speaker 3: be fine, because that's that is the idea of control.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the illusion that we can control for every variable.

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Speaker 2: It leads to bureaucracy, yes.

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Speaker 3: And I think it leads to extreme nervousness on the

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Speaker 3: part of parents because there's no there's no acknowledgment that like,

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Speaker 3: we can't control everything. We aren't God, you know, we

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Speaker 3: think we are. We have the phones, we can track them,

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Speaker 3: we can see who they texted, we can you know,

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Speaker 3: there's cameras everywhere. But in fact we're not in complete control.

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Speaker 3: And you know, if you think you are, you will

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Speaker 3: never be able to let go at all, because you

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Speaker 3: will think if anything bad happens, there will be no grace.

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Speaker 2: I remember, as a fourteen year old catching a bus

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Speaker 2: for the very first time. Public transport had never done

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Speaker 2: it before. My friend was going to the movies and

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Speaker 2: she asked me to meet her, so I caught the

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Speaker 2: Great City Circle bus. I didn't know what that meant

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Speaker 2: at the time, but I was to find out later

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Speaker 2: that if you catch a Great City Circle bus, you

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Speaker 2: catch one number two your destination, but you have to

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Speaker 2: catch a different number back because it gets to the

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Speaker 2: halfway point and then as it does a turnaround, it

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Speaker 2: does a big loop around the city, so it gets

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Speaker 2: to the halfway point and then it changes numbers. So

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Speaker 2: it was a five nine eight bus on the way in,

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Speaker 2: and I had to catch the five nine to nine

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Speaker 2: on the way out right. My parents had told me

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Speaker 2: that I had to come home straight after the movies,

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Speaker 2: so I jumped out of the movies and I ran

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Speaker 2: to the bus and my bus was there, the five

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Speaker 2: nine eight right. I didn't think to ask anyone. I

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Speaker 2: jumped on the bus makes sense, and before I knew it,

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Speaker 2: I was half an hour in the wrong direction. At

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Speaker 2: the end of the day. So I got off the

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Speaker 2: bus and I was like, this is where I should be.

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Speaker 1: Oh, you got off the bus.

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Speaker 2: I did get off the bus, but then I checked

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Speaker 2: the sign and it told me that this bus would

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Speaker 2: take me. So I didn't ask anyone. I just got

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Speaker 2: back on the bus. I ended up another half an

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Speaker 2: hour down the road. So by the time I finally

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Speaker 2: asked somebody, they explained what I'd done wrong, and I'd

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Speaker 2: actually reached the halfway point by then, so I could

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Speaker 2: stay on the bus and wait until they did the

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Speaker 2: turnaround to go back.

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Speaker 1: Oh my goodness.

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Speaker 2: But because it was now so late, I wasn't going

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Speaker 2: to make it home.

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Speaker 1: And in the days before my bill fasten.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so my parents were very stressed. But the reason

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Speaker 2: this story stands out to me and what Lenor has done,

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Speaker 2: is that because of that experience, I actually never caught

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Speaker 2: another bus. Oh, I wasn't left feeling empowered. I wasn't

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Speaker 2: there wasn't an opportunity for me to learn for getting

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Speaker 2: it from my mistakes. Yeah, and so I just love

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Speaker 2: that here's this mum that has not only shown belief

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Speaker 2: in her son, but has given him everything he needs

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Speaker 2: to be successful.

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Speaker 1: Alfie Kohane said to me once, if you want responsible kids,

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Speaker 1: you have to give them a responsibility, which.

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Speaker 2: Means they're going to stuff it up correct and they're

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Speaker 2: going to get it wrong.

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Speaker 1: And his whole argument was when they get it wrong,

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Speaker 1: you don't say, well that's it, You're not going to

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Speaker 1: do that again. Can't trust you what you do? Instead?

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Speaker 1: Did you sit down and say I trusted you with

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Speaker 1: something it didn't work out. Let's understand what went wrong.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that if I trust you that you

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Speaker 1: can get it right this second time? And so by

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Speaker 1: giving kids more responsibility, that's how they learn to be responsible.

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Speaker 1: Beautiful time with Lenore's message, we are out of time.

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Speaker 1: I wish we could play the whole interview right now instead,

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Speaker 1: because there's so much great stuff that she talks about.

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Speaker 1: We're going to play the entire conversation for you on Saturday.

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Speaker 1: We'll linked to her websites and her Free Range Child

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Speaker 1: book and all that sort of stuff on our show

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Speaker 1: notes as well. But we really would encourage you to

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Speaker 1: have a listen to what Leonore has to say. That's

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Speaker 1: on Saturday Today's sneak peek, giving you a sense of

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Speaker 1: just some of the really cool stuff that she's going

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Speaker 1: to talk about. I can't wait for you to hear

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Speaker 1: the whole conversation. The Happy Families Podcasts is produced by

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Speaker 1: Just Didn't Rule On from Bridge Media. More information and

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Speaker 1: more resources about strengthening, supporting, and making your family happier

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Speaker 1: are available at happy families dot com dot au