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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, first and foremost, do you let your child know

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Speaker 2: that you're there. They need that connection with you more

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Speaker 2: than ever.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, My mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 3: Hello.

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Speaker 4: This is doctor Justin, the founder of Happy Families dot com,

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Speaker 4: dot you and the author of six books about raising

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Speaker 4: happy families. I wish so much that Kylie was with

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Speaker 4: me today, but unfortunately, every now and again when we

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Speaker 4: do the podcast recordings and have some conversations with people,

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Speaker 4: Kylie has other commitments.

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Speaker 3: In today's one of.

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Speaker 4: Those days, which is a bummer because we're talking today

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Speaker 4: with Kimberly Ewitz. Kimberly is in California and has recently

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Speaker 4: published a book called Family Redefined Childhood Reflections on the

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Speaker 4: impact of divorce. And I really wanted to speak with

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Speaker 4: Kim because I get a lot of requests, a lot

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Speaker 4: of emails via podcasts at happy Families dot com, dot you,

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Speaker 4: conversations that happen on Facebook where people will say to me,

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Speaker 4: I'm going through a separation, I'm going through a divorce.

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Speaker 4: My family's having a really hard time and it doesn't

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Speaker 4: look like we're going to be able to stay together.

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Speaker 4: Can you please give me some advice? Can you please

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Speaker 4: help me with the situation that I'm in. And while

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Speaker 4: I've read a lot of books, and I've read a

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Speaker 4: lot of academic papers, and I kind of.

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Speaker 3: Feel like I can be useful.

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Speaker 4: Kylie and I are really fortunate, we're really blessed to

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Speaker 4: have a relationship that is just wonderful, and we haven't

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Speaker 4: had those kinds of challenging experiences in our relationship and

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Speaker 4: in our family, and so I kind of feel a

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Speaker 4: bit uncomfortable sometimes talking about separation and divorce. It kind

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Speaker 4: of feels like it's almost patronizing and inappropriate for me

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Speaker 4: to talk about it because we haven't been through it,

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Speaker 4: and fortunately and hopefully we never will. But that doesn't

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Speaker 4: mean that it's a topic that should be disregarded. There

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Speaker 4: are far too many families who need help in this area.

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Speaker 4: And Kim joined me today to talk about her book

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Speaker 4: and also to give us some tips, pointers and ideas

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Speaker 4: about how we can guide our family effectively through some

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Speaker 4: of these tough times. If you're a family who with

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Speaker 4: separation and divorce at the moment, I hope that this

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Speaker 4: is a helpful conversation. Kim, Welcome to the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Justin for allowing me to be

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Speaker 2: on your show.

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Speaker 3: It's Manor Kim.

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Speaker 4: Before we talk about your book, you're pretty upfront about

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Speaker 4: your own history. You started off a marriage that did

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Speaker 4: not go well to the extent that you're comfortable. Would

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Speaker 4: you just share a little bit about what happened and

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Speaker 4: why you therefore felt a need to write a book

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Speaker 4: about how families are redefined through separation and divorce.

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Speaker 2: Well, my son was ten years old and I had

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Speaker 2: been in my marriage for twelve years and it was

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Speaker 2: not good. It had been abusive from the beginning, and

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Speaker 2: that was my fault. I allowed it to happen. I

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Speaker 2: allowed myself to be abused, and I knew I had

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Speaker 2: to get us out of that environment. The older he got,

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Speaker 2: the more aware he was, or you know, the trauma

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Speaker 2: that we were all experiencing. And so I made the

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Speaker 2: decision to get a divorce, knowing I'm taking us out

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Speaker 2: of a bad situation. How can this have anything but positive,

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Speaker 2: you know, consequences for my son, and I was dumb

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Speaker 2: struck with how traumatic is not too harsh a word.

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Speaker 2: It was traumatic for him, and watching him suffer and

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Speaker 2: watching them go through that difficult period that first year

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Speaker 2: after was just heartbreaking for me. He stopped saying he

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Speaker 2: loved me. He became this little boy that I didn't

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Speaker 2: recognize anymore because he was so angry. And the experts

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Speaker 2: all confirmed that that is one of the first ways

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Speaker 2: a child will act out because they are so confused

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Speaker 2: and they're just traumatized and they don't understand what's happened

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Speaker 2: because for them, their family unit is it's like grieving

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Speaker 2: the loss of a loved one. That family unit has died.

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Speaker 2: So now they're reaching out trying to figure it out

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Speaker 2: in the best way they can, and they have no answers,

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Speaker 2: so they lash out. Mostly they lash out at the

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Speaker 2: parent they know that they can they can do that

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Speaker 2: with and that they're still going to receive love back.

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Speaker 2: So he never lashed out at his father, but he

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Speaker 2: did to me.

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Speaker 4: Kimberly, as I've listened to you, there's a couple of

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Speaker 4: points that I would love to pick up on that

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Speaker 4: you've described, and then I want to talk a bit

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Speaker 4: more about the stories in the book. I feel compelled

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Speaker 4: to really gently remind you that if you were a

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Speaker 4: victim of abuse in your marriage. You said at the

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Speaker 4: start of the conversation that it was your fault. I'm

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Speaker 4: so uncomfortable with that. If there's somebody who perpetrates abuse

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Speaker 4: and violence and harm against a spouse, I don't think

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Speaker 4: that the person who's been abused should ever need to

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Speaker 4: feel any kind of obligation to say it's their fault.

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Speaker 4: You're the one who's been the victim in this. Maybe

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Speaker 4: you feel bad for not leaving earlier. But my heart

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Speaker 4: goes out to you, and yet at the same time,

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Speaker 4: I just want to I'm sure you've had therapy and

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Speaker 4: talk to people about it, but I feel like, especially

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Speaker 4: in twenty twenty one, it's important to re emphasize as

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Speaker 4: often as is necessary, the person who does the abusing

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Speaker 4: is the person.

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Speaker 3: Who is at fault.

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Speaker 4: Are you Are you okay if I just gently put

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Speaker 4: that out there?

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Speaker 2: Of course now I appreciate that. Emotionally, I feel it,

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Speaker 2: you know, I could have done more, So that takes

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Speaker 2: over and I feel the guilt comes from that I

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Speaker 2: should have done more sooner.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we could have a long conversation about that too,

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Speaker 4: But because this is the podcast for the time, poor

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Speaker 4: parent who wants answers. I want to highlight one other thing,

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Speaker 4: and that is your son's anger at you for stepping

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Speaker 4: away from the relationship, even though he was being raised

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Speaker 4: in an abusive environment. My experience with families has been

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Speaker 4: that no matter how bad the abuse, no matter how

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Speaker 4: traumatizing the parent is to the child, that child is

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Speaker 4: biologically drawn to their parents. They will forgive anything. They

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Speaker 4: just want to be in the presence of their parents.

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Speaker 4: So what you're describing, it's such a hard thing for

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Speaker 4: a child to go through. Even though they're often victims

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Speaker 4: of abuse or they're watching somebody being abused, they still

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Speaker 4: have that intrinsic, biological, genetic drive that you really it's

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Speaker 4: so hard to overcome that.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And the experts say that, you know, even

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Speaker 2: though it may be a volatile environment that your child

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Speaker 2: is living in, that you're all living in. To put

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Speaker 2: an end to that through divorce or separation, the child

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Speaker 2: just like sits back and says, why can't you just

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Speaker 2: work it out? This is normal, you know, I'm not

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Speaker 2: upset about this. This is what our life is, So

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Speaker 2: why do we have to go through all of this?

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Speaker 2: Because that's what they've become such a custom to which

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Speaker 2: is all kinds of wrong, but it is. I mean,

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Speaker 2: we get an abused person gets used to the abuse

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Speaker 2: and expects it and takes on the guilt of it.

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Speaker 2: So I guess that's where that comes from.

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Speaker 3: To Kim.

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Speaker 4: In your book Family Redefined, you share ten stories of

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Speaker 4: children who have been through divorce and you interview them,

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Speaker 4: you ask them about their experience. This is a novel approach.

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Speaker 4: It's not what we normally see in books about separation

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Speaker 4: and divorce, and it's really striking. You've got an extraordinary

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Speaker 4: cross section of children who have come from terrible abusive relationships,

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Speaker 4: but also families where it just kind of wasn't working

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Speaker 4: and the families separated and went their different ways.

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Speaker 3: What I was struck by was how candid you are.

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Speaker 4: I mean, this is a really honest book where the

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Speaker 4: kids are saying, now that they're adults and these divorces

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Speaker 4: happened ten, twenty, thirty, forty years ago, these now adult

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Speaker 4: people are still saying the challenge and even the trauma

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Speaker 4: of the divorce has cast a long shadow through my life.

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Speaker 4: It still affects me decades later. It's really hard to read,

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Speaker 4: and yet it's really compelling. And so honest, I was

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Speaker 4: really struck by the stories and how will you capture them?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Well, I cannot thank the people that And I want

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Speaker 2: to say that everybody in the book is under fictional

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Speaker 2: names there and an inanimity stays secure. But they were

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Speaker 2: just wonderful to open up their lives to me and

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Speaker 2: trust me that I would tell their story the way

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Speaker 2: they wanted it to. And I did not go forward

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Speaker 2: with publishing the book until I got everyone to sign

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Speaker 2: off and say, here's your chapter. Are you okay with it?

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Speaker 2: And they all said, put it out there, help people,

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Speaker 2: because even the interview itself was cathartic. For my very

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Speaker 2: first interview is the very first chapter in the book.

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Speaker 2: Lisa and we were both in tears by the end

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Speaker 2: of the two and a half hour session and she's like,

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Speaker 2: this is really helped me, just to kind of. And

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Speaker 2: she was six years old at the time her parents separated,

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Speaker 2: and she was in her fifties when we met, so

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Speaker 2: almost you know, forty five years later. To go through

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Speaker 2: that whole process and talk about it actually helped her.

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Speaker 2: And when I left that interview, I'm like, Okay, I've

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Speaker 2: got to keep doing this. This is helping them, so

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Speaker 2: it can only help others. So yeah, I took that

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Speaker 2: as the you know, sign from above that yeah, you're

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Speaker 2: on the right track here.

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Speaker 4: Well, Kim, the stories are impactful and important. The book

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Speaker 4: is called Family Redefined. We're going to come back after

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Speaker 4: the break and talk about some of the discoveries that

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Speaker 4: you made as you interviewed these children who reflected on

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Speaker 4: the impact of the divorce of their parents.

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Speaker 1: It's that Happy Families podcame.

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Speaker 5: Our Screens Creating Tension at Home, Tweens, teens and Screens

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Speaker 5: is a webinar to God Families, Too Healthy, Safe, Superscreen

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Speaker 5: Solutions by today at Happy families dot com, dot au

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Speaker 5: slash shop.

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Speaker 4: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the type

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Speaker 4: of parent who just wants answers. Nowaday, this is doctor

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Speaker 4: Justin Coursel. I'm here with Kim Ewitts. Kim has written

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Speaker 4: book called Family Redefined. It's all about the impact of

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Speaker 4: divorce on kids, and Kim, I'd like to ask you

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Speaker 4: a few questions about discoveries that you made, either through

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Speaker 4: your interviews or through your research with experts and looking

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Speaker 4: at the academic literature. How do parents tell their kids

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Speaker 4: that the relationships not working out, that they're not prepared

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Speaker 4: to work on it anymore, and that they're going to

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Speaker 4: separate our divorce.

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Speaker 3: Well, all the.

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Speaker 2: Experts that I interviewed, I'll agree on through unanimous in

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Speaker 2: the fact that a unified front, you know, the two

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Speaker 2: parents together, sitting the child down and just explaining that

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Speaker 2: mommy and daddy aren't going to be living together anymore.

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Speaker 2: And you've heard it said so many times that you

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Speaker 2: have to reassure your child that this is, you know,

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Speaker 2: our decision. Mom and dad are making this decision because

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Speaker 2: we've reached a point where we feel it's better to

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Speaker 2: live apart than live together. And it has no reflection

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Speaker 2: on you. You are, You are not the reason for this.

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Speaker 2: You cannot you know, the experts just hammered that in

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Speaker 2: over and over again about you cannot reassure your child

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Speaker 2: enough that that is the truth.

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Speaker 4: What impact does divorce have on children as a general rule, no.

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Speaker 2: Matter what age they are. It's, as I explained, the

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Speaker 2: one therapist said it, you know, it's the death of

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Speaker 2: the family unit. So they're going to have to go

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Speaker 2: through a grieving process, and sometimes they get stuck in

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Speaker 2: that process, whether it's at the anger or the denial part.

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Speaker 2: And if they're in the denial party, they still in

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Speaker 2: their in their world, they want to they see their

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Speaker 2: parents getting back together. I think a part of them

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Speaker 2: maybe always holds onto that.

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Speaker 3: You know, I remember a story. Just listen to you

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Speaker 3: say that.

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Speaker 4: A family that I spent considerable time with many years ago,

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Speaker 4: Mum and Dad got divorced. I think that they had

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Speaker 4: four kids and the eldest was about six when the

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Speaker 4: divorce occurred. In fact, the separation occurred, he moved back

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Speaker 4: in for less than a week. He moved back out

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Speaker 4: after a week because it wasn't working, and during that week,

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Speaker 4: Mum became pregnant with child number four. Like it, it

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Speaker 4: was such a challenging circumstance for the family. But I

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Speaker 4: remember conversing with their adolescent daughter, so obviously this was

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Speaker 4: about a decade after the divorce, and in talking with

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Speaker 4: the daughter and then with the extended family, I discovered

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Speaker 4: that this teenage girl would sit down in the rumpus

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Speaker 4: room on a Saturday night when no one was around,

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Speaker 4: and she pulled out Mum and Dad's wedding video and

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Speaker 4: she would just watch the wedding on repeat. She still

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Speaker 4: mourned and grieved and wanted so much for that union

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Speaker 4: it had been consummated fifteen years earlier to still be intact.

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Speaker 4: It seems that the impact must be just so staggering

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Speaker 4: for so many kids.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what I found fascinating from the experts, they explained

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Speaker 2: that a child's identity is the family, you know, the

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Speaker 2: family they come from. So to have that family unit broken,

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Speaker 2: their world is broken. So that is something they carry

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Speaker 2: with them for the rest of their lives. You know,

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Speaker 2: that idealism of their security, their center. It's all taken

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Speaker 2: away when the parents divorce.

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Speaker 4: Kim, from all of the conversations that you've had, from

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Speaker 4: all the research that you've done. If I'm a parent

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Speaker 4: who's either going through or contemplating going through a separation

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Speaker 4: or divorce, what do I do? What's the best thing

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Speaker 4: that I can do to ameliorate the negative effects that

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Speaker 4: my child or children may experience because of the rupture

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Speaker 4: in the family unit.

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Speaker 2: First and foremost, do you let your child know that

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Speaker 2: you're there. They need that connection with you more than ever,

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Speaker 2: So you find a way to whatever age they are.

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Speaker 2: If they're young, then you play with them, if you

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Speaker 2: let you if you see exhibited in their play like

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Speaker 2: cars crashing or dolls fighting. Then you know that there's

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Speaker 2: anger from you know, what's going on with the family, knowing,

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Speaker 2: you know, even though they can't really comprehend, if they're

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Speaker 2: young enough, they can't comprehend what divorce means, but they

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Speaker 2: know a mom or dad is no longer living in

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Speaker 2: the house. So something is definitely not right, something is broken,

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Speaker 2: and so that connection with parents is the key. They

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Speaker 2: are striving to get that.

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Speaker 1: And so.

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Speaker 2: I myself thought, because I was such an emotional wreck,

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Speaker 2: I couldn't give my son what he needed me. So

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Speaker 2: I farmed him out to therapists, you know, school therapy,

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Speaker 2: after school therapy. You know, all these professionals can help them,

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Speaker 2: but what he needed was me, and I didn't realize that.

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Speaker 2: So if you have a child who is maybe not

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Speaker 2: a bit reticent to you know, share their feelings at

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Speaker 2: a therapy session, you're going to know that about your child.

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Speaker 2: So you seek help, You get the therapy for you,

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Speaker 2: and then you can be stronger and be stronger for

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Speaker 2: your child because they're going to need you. And always, always, always,

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Speaker 2: always be honest with them about your feelings. Because Lisa

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Speaker 2: said it and It was just mind blowing when she

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Speaker 2: told me in the interview, if my mom had just

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Speaker 2: told me, Lisa, I'm scared. I don't really know how

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Speaker 2: this is all going to work out, but I know

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Speaker 2: we're going to get through it together, and admit that,

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Speaker 2: you know, there's some fear factor there, and that Lisa

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Speaker 2: wasn't the only one who was afraid. Her mom was

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Speaker 2: afraid too, and she said, we could have shared that

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Speaker 2: camaraderie of Okay, we're going to go through this journey

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Speaker 2: together both, you know, admitting that it's a little scary,

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Speaker 2: but together we can get through it. And Mom's got help,

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Speaker 2: Mom's got friends, mom's got family, Mom's got all these

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Speaker 2: resources that she will use and utilize to help them

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Speaker 2: get through it. So you just have to constantly reassure

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Speaker 2: them and again and again and again reassure them it's

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Speaker 2: not your fault. Mom and dad are in this situation

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Speaker 2: because of Mom and dad. Nothing to do with you.

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Speaker 2: You had nothing to do with this decision. So those

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Speaker 2: are the most important things you can give your child.

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Speaker 4: Kim, we could talk for hours about so many other questions,

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Speaker 4: dealing with holidays, dealing with finances, dealing with school, decisions

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Speaker 4: treating the other partner well. Despite all of the history

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Speaker 4: in the baggage, there's so much that we could cover. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 4: our time is up, but for those who are interested

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Speaker 4: in more, the book is called Family Redefined Childhood Reflections

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Speaker 4: on the impact of divorce.

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Speaker 3: That's Family Redefined.

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Speaker 4: Kimberly Ewitz is the author of the book, and Kim,

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Speaker 4: we'll make sure that the book links for the book

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Speaker 4: are all in the show notes so that people can

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Speaker 4: find out more.

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Speaker 3: It's been a pleasure talking to you.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for sharing your story and the stories of

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Speaker 4: those who have been impacted by something that really can

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Speaker 4: be a tremendous challenge, especially for our kids.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Justin, I really appreciate this opportunity

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Speaker 2: and I hope it's helpful to those who need it.

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Speaker 4: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Rulan from

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Speaker 4: Bridge Media.

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Speaker 3: Craig Bruce is our executive producer.

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Speaker 4: If you'd like more and fo about how to make

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Speaker 4: your family happier, you can check out the show notes

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Speaker 4: for more details about what we've talked about today, or

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Speaker 4: visit Happy Families dot com dot au