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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, these findings suggest you're not going to know very

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Speaker 2: much about who you'd be happy with by knowing all

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Speaker 2: of the details in the world about that potential date.

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Speaker 2: You're going to learn the most about a possible fit

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Speaker 2: between you and another person by what you actually experience

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Speaker 2: with that person.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the scars of our show, My Mum

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Speaker 1: and Dad.

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Speaker 2: Every now and again, I come across some research, Kylie

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Speaker 2: that is so exciting that I can't wait for the

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Speaker 2: doctor's desk. It's so exciting, Like you know when I

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Speaker 2: read something and just go, oh, that is so good.

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Speaker 2: Today today we're doing it. Today. We're going to talk

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Speaker 2: about our intimate relationship, the spousal or partnered relationship between

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Speaker 2: two adults, and how we can make it stronger based

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Speaker 2: on a groundbreaking study using forty three major data sets,

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Speaker 2: and what it tells us about relationship satisfaction. I'm so

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Speaker 2: excited about this research, so excited about this research.

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Speaker 3: You know how I usually feel about research, but I

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Speaker 3: actually have really enjoyed reading over this and talking about

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Speaker 3: it with you.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So here's here's the deal. Do you want me

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Speaker 2: to just tell you about the study and we'll go,

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Speaker 2: or do you want to sort of do you have

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Speaker 2: questions about it from the outset? How do you want

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Speaker 2: to do this?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 3: I think you start sharing?

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Speaker 2: Okay. So this is a new and massive study by

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Speaker 2: two researchers, Samantha Joel and Paul Eastwick. And what they've

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Speaker 2: done is they've grabbed forty three data sets. So this

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Speaker 2: is a big study to answer a question about what

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Speaker 2: factors are most strongly associated with relationship satisfaction. So how

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Speaker 2: satisfied are you in our relationship is essentially the question

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Speaker 2: that they're asking, and what I love. So there's about

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Speaker 2: eighty four researchers that are involved in this because they've

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Speaker 2: gone out to so many different people. It's an incredible

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Speaker 2: team job.

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Speaker 3: They utilized over eleven thousand couples.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really business.

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Speaker 3: It's a big study.

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Speaker 2: And what they've done as well as they've used a

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Speaker 2: really deeply sophisticated form of statistical analysis that just didn't

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Speaker 2: used to exist. They're using deep learning, a whole lot

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Speaker 2: of computer learning, lots and lots and lots of calculations

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Speaker 2: going on and as they've gone through this, what they've

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Speaker 2: essentially done is they've removed the possibility for bias that

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Speaker 2: so many researchers end up bringing into their research. It's

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Speaker 2: just I don't even fully understand everything that they've done.

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Speaker 2: This is well beyond anything that I learned at university.

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Speaker 2: But the level of statistical power and the level of

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Speaker 2: statistical depth that's gone into this, I think is just extraordinary.

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Speaker 2: This is one of the best studies that I've ever

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Speaker 2: come across. So what did it find? Number One, If

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Speaker 2: you want to have a high level of relationship satisfaction

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Speaker 2: in your relationship, the researchers have basically said that the

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Speaker 2: main takeaway from the study it's not who you're with,

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Speaker 2: it's the dynamic that you have with them. So it

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Speaker 2: doesn't matter about the person's personal attribute, it's their characteristics.

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Speaker 2: It's actually about the relationship that you have with them

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Speaker 2: that determines, to a very very large extent, the extent

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Speaker 2: to which you're happy and satisfied in that relationship.

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Speaker 3: When you read that to me earlier, what stood out

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Speaker 3: to me the most was how many times you and

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Speaker 3: I have had a conversation about different people that we

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Speaker 3: know and gone.

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Speaker 2: Oh, you're making this sound. I don't say that you're

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Speaker 2: going to make this sound judgy. We would never do that.

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Speaker 3: No, no, no, but just pow. Did those two end

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Speaker 3: up together? They're so different And in some cases you've

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Speaker 3: got this ridiculously sweet woman with this very abrupt, you know,

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Speaker 3: kind of straight down the line guy, and you think,

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Speaker 3: how does this work?

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Speaker 2: Or vice versa. I remember on one of our first dates,

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Speaker 2: we're driving along through East Gosford and we've put up

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Speaker 2: a set of lights and you and I were just

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Speaker 2: talking away like crazy. And I don't know if you

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Speaker 2: remember this incident or not, but I looked at you,

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Speaker 2: and then I looked at the people in the car

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Speaker 2: beside it's also stopped at the lights. Do you remember

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Speaker 2: what happened? I can't believe you remember?

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Speaker 1: What?

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Speaker 2: Did I say? What happened?

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Speaker 3: You said? I can't imagine being in a car and

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Speaker 3: not having something to say to the person next to

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Speaker 3: me because they were just sitting in silence.

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Speaker 2: They're both staring out the window. The driver that they

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Speaker 2: were a young couple. He's just staring at the front

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Speaker 2: and she's staring at the passenger window like I'd rather

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Speaker 2: be anywhere else. And I was like, really, now, now

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Speaker 2: some people that they would hear that and they'd think, no, no,

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Speaker 2: that's bliss. That's perfect.

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Speaker 3: If you see us in a car and we're not talking,

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Speaker 3: it's because I'm cranky, but she might have been cranky

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Speaker 3: at him.

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Speaker 2: But what matters is the dynamic between them, the dynamic,

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Speaker 2: And so if they're both satisfied with the dynamic, regardless

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Speaker 2: of the individual characteristics, the personality differences that they have,

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Speaker 2: they're not entirely but they're almost irrelevant compared to the

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Speaker 2: quality of the dynamic that the way that they interact.

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Speaker 2: So what these two researchers essentially said is this relationship

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Speaker 2: specific variables are about two to three times as predictive

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Speaker 2: as individual differences. And Samantha Joel adds, she says this

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Speaker 2: and I quote which I think would fit many people's intuitions.

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Speaker 2: But the surprising part is that once you have all

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Speaker 2: the relationships specific data in hand, the individual differences fade

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Speaker 2: into the background. So I think the easiest way to

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Speaker 2: describe this is for me to share something that one

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Speaker 2: of my favorite research is a guy called Scott Stanley

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Speaker 2: who has a brilliant Twitter account and website called decide

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Speaker 2: or slide, and he said, this is what it's actually like.

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Speaker 2: Suppose you're using an online dating service. You're looking at

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Speaker 2: a lot of profiles and pictures of potential partners. These

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Speaker 2: findings suggest you're not going to know very much about

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Speaker 2: who you'd be happy with by knowing all of the

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Speaker 2: details in the world about that potential date. As Joel

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Speaker 2: has argued, so well, you're going to learn the most

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Speaker 2: about a possible fit between you and another person by

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Speaker 2: what you actually experience with that person. And that's why

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Speaker 2: dating apps. I'm not a fan of dating apps. I

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Speaker 2: know that they can work. I know some people find love.

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Speaker 2: That's great, but you don't find love until you have

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Speaker 2: the dynamic, until you have the interaction. Checking a whole

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Speaker 2: list of boss is not nearly as valuable as having

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Speaker 2: the interpersonal connection looking in that person's eyes and seeing

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Speaker 2: the spark, feeling the smile, feeling the warmth fill your chest, because,

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Speaker 2: oh my goodness, the dynamic is just electric.

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Speaker 3: I don't think I'm the only one who's had the

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Speaker 3: experience where everyone's told you've got to go and meet

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Speaker 3: that person. They're amazing, and they give you all of

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Speaker 3: the reasons why this person's going to be your next

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Speaker 3: best friend or your boyfriend or whatever it is. And

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Speaker 3: you meet them and you're kind of going, what's everyone

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Speaker 3: so excited about? And again, it comes down to that dynamic. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: what I bring to the relationship and what that person

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Speaker 3: brings to the relationship just doesn't gel. That doesn't mean

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Speaker 3: that either of us are a bad person. It just

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Speaker 3: means that the dynamic that we bring just doesn't It

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Speaker 3: does doesn't.

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Speaker 2: Fit to right. So ask me what mattered most?

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Speaker 3: What mattered most?

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Speaker 2: I'm glad you asked. What a great question. So across

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Speaker 2: everything we've studied the top five variables, the top five

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Speaker 2: variables that explained the most variance both present satisfaction and

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Speaker 2: future relationship satisfaction with these number one perceived part in

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Speaker 2: the commitment that ranked at the top of the list.

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Speaker 2: I love that this is the top of the list.

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Speaker 2: So it's kind of like me being asked, how much

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Speaker 2: do you justin think that Kylie is committed to the relationship.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't matter how committed you actually are. What matters

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Speaker 2: is my perception of your level of commitment. See, when

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Speaker 2: I think about you and the way that you're committed

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Speaker 2: to our relationship, and our family. There's no question, there's

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Speaker 2: no doubt in my mind, it's one hundred percent. It's

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Speaker 2: just you're committed, full stop, end of story. And therefore,

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Speaker 2: one of the main reasons that I can be completely

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Speaker 2: satisfied in our relationship is I know that you're committed.

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Speaker 2: I know it. My perception of your level of commitment

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Speaker 2: to me and to our relationship is sky high. And

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Speaker 2: hopefully you'd say the same thing in reverse. Hopefully you'd

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Speaker 2: say the same thing in reverse, hopefully leaving you hanging.

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Speaker 2: The second thing is appreciation, feeling like you really appreciate

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Speaker 2: your spouse or partner. That's the second biggest indicator of

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Speaker 2: present and future satisfaction. So when somebody can look at

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Speaker 2: you and say, I appreciate you so much, I recognize

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Speaker 2: what you do, I'm so grateful for you. When you

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Speaker 2: know that you're appreciated, when there's that high level of

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Speaker 2: gratitude in your relationship, oh my goodness, what it does

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Speaker 2: for your relationship satisfaction is it's enormous. The third one

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Speaker 2: you might want to fast forward the next thirty seconds.

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Speaker 2: If you've got little kids in the card, this little

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Speaker 2: bit will be for sense, will not be for sensitive

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Speaker 2: or immature or young. Is The third contributor to present

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Speaker 2: and future relationship satisfaction is the level of sexual satisfaction.

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Speaker 2: You have the quality of an intimate relationship pretty smiling

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Speaker 2: at well.

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Speaker 3: What I love about this is it's not top of

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Speaker 3: the list, and so often our conversations would suggest that

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Speaker 3: that's what people put a huge emphasis on. But the

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Speaker 3: reality is that without that perceived partner commitment and the

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Speaker 3: appreciation sexual satisfaction.

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Speaker 2: Is that an all time low, it's going to be

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Speaker 2: lower that that, right, So that actually fits there really

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Speaker 2: beautifully because these other two variables are in place. So

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Speaker 2: number one perceived partner commitment, Number two appreciation, Number three

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Speaker 2: feeling satisfied when things get a little bit steamy. Number

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Speaker 2: four perceived partner satisfaction. So again, this isn't about the

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Speaker 2: attributes that I'm bringing or that you're bringing to a relationship. Rather,

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Speaker 2: it's my perception of how satisfied you are in the relationship.

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Speaker 2: And this is why we feel so good in our relationships.

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Speaker 2: When I look at you and I get to say,

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Speaker 2: I know that my wife loves the fact that she's

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Speaker 2: married to me. I have this sense of predictability, this

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Speaker 2: sense of security, this sense of safety in the relationship.

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Speaker 2: I feel like I'm doing a good job as a husband.

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Speaker 2: That's why things were so bad early on in our marriage,

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Speaker 2: because I was doing a lousy job. But over time

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Speaker 2: I feel better about it. And presumably you feel as

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Speaker 2: good about being in the relationship with me as I

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Speaker 2: think you feel about being in the relationship.

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Speaker 3: Right when I look at this list, though, what I see,

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Speaker 3: if you were to kind of culminate it all into

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Speaker 3: one word, it's about building a relationship of trust.

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Speaker 2: That's not one word building a relationship, but that's five words.

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Speaker 2: I trust. Okay, trusty, let's just go trust yep. Sure.

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Speaker 3: If I trust that you're committed to me, and if

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Speaker 3: I trust that there's this level of appreciation for the

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Speaker 3: things that I do, I'm able to be my authentic

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Speaker 3: self with you in the bedroom. Outside the bedroom, I

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Speaker 3: can be that person because I have a high level

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Speaker 3: of trust in the relationship, and that follows through into

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Speaker 3: the level of satisfaction that I see in you or

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Speaker 3: you see in me as a result of the relationship

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Speaker 3: that's built on trust.

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Speaker 2: One of the critical things about what you've said and

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Speaker 2: what this research shows is that relationship satisfaction is actually

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Speaker 2: often not about the relationship. I mean it is, but

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Speaker 2: it's not. It's actually about what's going on inside your head.

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Speaker 2: So my perception of what's happening for you, my perception

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Speaker 2: of how satisfied you are, my perception of how committed

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Speaker 2: you are, that is the biggest indicator of how satisfied

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Speaker 2: I am, and vice versa. The degree to which you

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Speaker 2: believe that I'm committed and satisfied and grateful, that predicts

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Speaker 2: how satisfied you are. Therefore, what this study really shows

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Speaker 2: is that people project their own relationship perceptions and behaviors

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Speaker 2: onto their relationship, onto their partner. And I think this

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Speaker 2: is so important. This is a really really critical thing

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Speaker 2: for relationship well being.

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Speaker 3: I think if you were to take out step number

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Speaker 3: three and so.

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Speaker 2: Remove the intimacy aspect.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this actually plays out in just about all of

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Speaker 3: our relationships.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because trust is at the core, I think.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, But it's all about the perceived that that's the

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Speaker 3: biggest word out of this whole thing. It's about our

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Speaker 3: perception of what's going on for us and for them.

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Speaker 2: So as an addendum to this, as an additional level

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Speaker 2: to this, Scott Stanley who I mentioned before, Decide or

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Speaker 2: Slide from Twitter and from the University of Denver. He

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Speaker 2: and one of his colleagues, Gallina Rhodes, have a whole

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Speaker 2: lot of research that points to something else that I

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Speaker 2: think is really fascinating here, and that is when it

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Speaker 2: comes to leading up to marriage, just the perception that

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Speaker 2: you're soon to be marriage partner is less committed than

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Speaker 2: you are, even a little bit. It's one of the

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Speaker 2: biggest predictors of unhappiness in marriage. I think that's enormous.

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Speaker 2: And so what we're talking about here is this thing

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Speaker 2: called asymmetrical commitment. It's when we've got different levels of

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Speaker 2: commitment on either side of the partnership. If you want

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Speaker 2: to have a great relationship, understand what it means to

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Speaker 2: be committed, Understand what your expectations are to demonstrate commitment.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we talked on Friday, Kylie about how and

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Speaker 2: I'll do be it tomorrow. How last Monday, my level

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Speaker 2: of commitment to Halloween was lower than my level of

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Speaker 2: commitment to getting my bike fixed. But that doesn't lead

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Speaker 2: you to question my commitment to you, or to our family,

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Speaker 2: or to our relationship. You just recognize that my values

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Speaker 2: aren't the same as yours. And while you were doing

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Speaker 2: all the hard work during the day, you knew that

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Speaker 2: I was going to be there and do it in

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Speaker 2: the afternoon. I was still committed, but there are other

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Speaker 2: priorities and other factors that were impacting our day. You're

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Speaker 2: looking at me strangely like maybe you questioned my commitment

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Speaker 2: last night.

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Speaker 3: Not at all. I was actually going to suggest that

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Speaker 3: I did give you a bit of a hard time

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Speaker 3: on Friday, But the reality was, I continue to love

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Speaker 3: the dynamic that you and I have. Decorating is actually

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Speaker 3: something that I really enjoy doing, and I take it. Oh.

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Speaker 3: I get a lot of joy out of doing it.

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Speaker 3: But I also had an afternoon of fearing kids to

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Speaker 3: and from activities, and I wasn't actually sure how we

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Speaker 3: were going to do it. We just knew we wanted

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Speaker 3: to do it, and we wanted to be part of

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Speaker 3: a community. And you were able to come in and

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Speaker 3: just take over and do such an amazing job, and

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Speaker 3: the fact that we had so many people show up,

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Speaker 3: everybody said that ours was the house to be out,

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Speaker 3: even without three rubbish bins.

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Speaker 2: If you miss the story and you're only just catching

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Speaker 2: up with this podcast, go back and listen to I'll

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Speaker 2: Do about It Tomorrow on Friday, a couple of days ago,

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Speaker 2: because you get the whole story there. I think we

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Speaker 2: need to move to a take home message out of

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Speaker 2: this study, though, because it really is so important. What

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Speaker 2: we're talking about here is if you want to have

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Speaker 2: high levels of relationship satisfaction, work on the dynamic between

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Speaker 2: the two of you. I mean, we're assuming that because

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Speaker 2: you're in a family context, you're probably not dating. It's

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Speaker 2: probably not young adulthood for people who are listening to

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Speaker 2: this podcast. So if you're in a couple relationship and

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Speaker 2: you want to make your relationship stronger, to make it

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Speaker 2: as good as you can, don't worry about personality differences,

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Speaker 2: don't worry about education differences, don't worry about political differences,

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Speaker 2: don't even worry about parenting differences. Focus instead on what

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Speaker 2: you can do to make the dynamic between the two

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Speaker 2: of you as good as it can be. And that

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Speaker 2: might mean looking for different ways that you can listen better,

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Speaker 2: or be more emotionally supportive, or just smile more or

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Speaker 2: joke around, have fun. Find the way to interact and

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Speaker 2: engage with your marriage, partner or your life partner in

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Speaker 2: a way that satisfies them and puts their mind of ease,

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Speaker 2: that shows them that you are satisfied in the relationship,

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Speaker 2: and that you are committed to the relationship, and that

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Speaker 2: you're grateful. Do those things, watch what happens to the relationship.

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Speaker 3: I think the only thing that I would add to

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Speaker 3: this conversation is in my personal experience. What I have

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Speaker 3: recognized in myself over the years is that often my

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Speaker 3: perception is very skewed, and it's skewed because of my

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Speaker 3: own personal experiences as a child and growing up in

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Speaker 3: a totally different environment and family value system, coming into

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Speaker 3: our family situation, recognizing that I brought a lot of

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Speaker 3: baggage into the relationship and as a result, actually labeled

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Speaker 3: you with a lot of those things that carried over

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Speaker 3: from my birth family, and yet you were so far

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Speaker 3: removed from that personal history of my own. Yeah, and

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Speaker 3: it's taken you and I years to kind of work

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Speaker 3: through the dynamic that that has created, not.

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Speaker 2: Just years years of intentional effort, years of really trying

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Speaker 2: to modify, adjust that dynamic so that it feels good

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Speaker 2: for both of us. I love the dynamic between the

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Speaker 2: two of us, So we really hope that this has

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Speaker 2: been a useful podcast for you if you want to

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Speaker 2: strengthen your relationship with your significant other. We will link

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Speaker 2: to that study if you're inclined to have a look

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Speaker 2: at the science behind it, as well as some of

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Speaker 2: the other research we've talked about in today's podcast in

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Speaker 2: our show notes. The Happy Famili's podcast is produced by

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Speaker 2: Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer,

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Speaker 2: and if you'd like more to make your family happier,

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Speaker 2: please join us at Happy families dot com dot aun