1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: All time out, like all punitive consequences, is never going 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: to help children develop. We have to find a way 3 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: of working with children instead of doing things. 4 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 2: Do them. 5 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 3: It's a Happy Family's podcast, the podcast for the time 6 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 3: poor parent, He yes, wants answers Now, Well, we're not 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 3: going to mess around it all today, We're straight into it. 8 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 3: This is a conversation that I am looking so much 9 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 3: forward to. By the way, my name is doctor Justin Colson, 10 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 3: the author of six books about raising happy families. My 11 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 3: wife and podcast partner is Kylie. We're the parents of 12 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 3: six kids. 13 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:37,480 Speaker 4: If you've been listening over the last few weeks, you'll 14 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 4: have heard some amazing, I mean amazingly amazing discussions we've 15 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 4: had with Alfie Cone. I think he's becoming one of 16 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 4: my favorites. 17 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 3: He's been my favorite for twenty years and you're finally 18 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:49,200 Speaker 3: saved the hour. 19 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 4: We had a great conversation with him around punishment and reward. 20 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: The research is very clear rewards, like punishments, can only 21 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: get temporary impliance, and in both cases they repard moral 22 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: and social and intellectual development. 23 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 4: If you've missed those, make sure you go back and 24 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 4: have a listen. It's really well worth it. But today 25 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 4: we've got something awesome. 26 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 3: So a while back, I had a very uncomfortable In fact, 27 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 3: it was a very public disagreement with a psychology professor 28 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 3: at a major university in Sydney. I won't mention the 29 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 3: professor's name, I won't mention the university. 30 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 5: But I will highlight this. He was staggeringly rude. 31 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 3: He was extraordinarily aggressive because he didn't like my take 32 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 3: on time out. 33 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 4: That's yeah, anyway, let's carry on today, Alfie joins us 34 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 4: to talk about the problem with time out. Alfie, the 35 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 4: third time you've spoken with us. 36 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 5: We're so grateful, happy to do it. 37 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 3: Okay, so Alfie, let's dive straight in. I'm going to 38 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 3: ask as if I'm brand new to the topic and 39 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 3: have never heard anything about it before, because I want 40 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 3: everybody to hear your take what is wrong with time out? 41 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: First of all, it's interesting to look at where the 42 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: phrase came from. What's the history of it? And I'll 43 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: be very brief here, but timeout was developed in the 44 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: laboratories of BF Skinner. You know, most people will know, 45 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 1: I hope who I'm talking about, an American psychologists who 46 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: did most of his research with Rodents and pigeons, and 47 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: wrote most of his books about people. BF Skinner and 48 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: his acolytes ended up training rats to run through mazes 49 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: and to press bars, pigeons to pecket discs, and so on, 50 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 1: and instead of just trying to control their behavior with reinforcers, 51 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: usually food, they would sometimes have a time out from 52 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: positive reinforcement. That was the original phrase, which means we're 53 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: going to stop giving you the food for a while 54 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: to punish you, or time out from light and plunge 55 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: the animals into darkness to see if that would extinguish 56 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: the behaviors that the researchers didn't want, the people with 57 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 1: the power. And by the way, over the years that 58 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: I've been writing and thinking about this, the one thing 59 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 1: is clear to me is praise and rewards, just like punishments, 60 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: are really about power. People with more of its controlling 61 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: people with less of it. That's what lurks underneath every 62 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: treakly good job, every sticker and star. It's about me 63 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: making you do what I want. So instead of using 64 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: physical violence on children, which apart from being a moral abomination, 65 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: turns out to be massively counterproductive, any kind of slapping 66 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: or spanking teaches children to hurt others when they want 67 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: to get something done. So there are actually therapists and 68 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: pediatricians who will say, don't spank kids, you know, use 69 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: a time out. 70 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 5: There post pediatricians outfie. 71 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:07,119 Speaker 3: The American Psychological Association, the APA has psychiatric I can't 72 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 3: refer it's the psychiatrical psychological but the major body over 73 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 3: there in the United States has come out and explicitly 74 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 3: said that they're now against spanking. 75 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 5: In Australia, we would call it smacking, but they. 76 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 3: Have explicitly stated that they would encourage parents to be 77 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 3: using time out. So we've got a peak body in 78 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 3: charge of psychology and looking up for these kinds of 79 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 3: things saying that time out is the way to go. 80 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 5: Obviously, the history of it is that this. 81 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 3: Is about removing children from positive reinforcement, but you and 82 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 3: I both are. 83 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: It becomes so when I saw that it was. In fact, 84 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: if you look up in the psychological literature, time out 85 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: is listed under the category of love withdrawal. And that's 86 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: when the light bulb went turned on for me or 87 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 1: for my head, because I was thinking, what positive reinforcement. 88 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: It's not like we're handing out candy bars to kids 89 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: all day long. They do something bad and we say up, 90 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:01,919 Speaker 1: time out, you bar for ten minutes. What's the positive 91 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: reinforcement that we're shutting down. It's our love and that's 92 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 1: how young children experience it, and that is absolutely horrifying. 93 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 1: And this connects to what you and I talked about 94 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 1: in both of our last two sessions. First time out, 95 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: which is actually more accurately called forcible isolation of young 96 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: children is a way of doing things to them rather 97 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,919 Speaker 1: than working with them, about appealing to naked power to 98 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: make them unhappy on purpose in the hope that that 99 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: will change their behavior, which, as I argued a couple 100 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: of weeks ago, that just the only thing that can 101 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: ever get is temporary compliance, but at an enormous cost, 102 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: a cost to their ethical development and a cost to 103 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 1: our relationship. 104 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 2: Because now kids come to see us very much the 105 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 2: same way as we They're about as happy to see 106 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 2: us as we would be to see a police car 107 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 2: in our. 108 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: Rear view mirrors. We're not a caring ally to help 109 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: them through a problem they're having. Now, where someone who 110 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,359 Speaker 1: has the capacity to make them unhappy if we don't 111 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: please them. That's what every time out does is further 112 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: rupture our relationship and from a very practical point of view, 113 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: our capacity to solve the problem. That's why time out, 114 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 1: like all other punishments and rewards, are not just ineffective, 115 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 1: they actually do damage. And the other thing that we 116 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: talked about more recently is the other feature of timeout, 117 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: which is that it communicates the conditionality of our love. 118 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: It says, I love you, care for you, want to 119 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:56,919 Speaker 1: spend time with you only when you meet my standards, 120 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: only when you do what I demand. Otherwise you are 121 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: literally cast off from me, and figuratively I'm casting you 122 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: off at the same time, which is devastating for a child. 123 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: So when you talk of you and I were chatting 124 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: before about a psychologist who believes that under some circumstances 125 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: with you know, and possibly fine distinctions of what problem 126 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: had led to it and how long we do it 127 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: and so on, sort of like tight trading this for 128 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: the fine, you know, the fine tuning of when to 129 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: do time out and for how long, and what they 130 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: have to do to earn their way back into our 131 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: presence and so on. All of this is is like 132 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: talking about different types of wood you should use on 133 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: the paddle when you hit a child. It misses the 134 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: big picture here, which is that all time out, like 135 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: all punitive consequences, is never going to help children develop 136 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: in the way that we want to. That we have 137 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: to find a way of working with children instead of 138 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: doing things to them. 139 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 4: Elfie, can you just unpack that idea around using love 140 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 4: as a positive reinforcement versus using punishment and time out. 141 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: The whole idea of a punishing children deliberately making them 142 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: unhappy to change their behavior, and then second as well, 143 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: communicating the conditionality of our affection and our love when 144 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: what they need is to be loved for who they are, 145 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: never for what they do. They should never have to 146 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,440 Speaker 1: earn our affection suggests that this is another example of 147 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: how many people miss the farest for the trees, focus 148 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: too much on the details. Don't take a step back 149 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: and say the whole practice is grounded in something problematic. 150 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: No version of that old style traditional bribe and threat approach, 151 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: including time out, will ever be effective if by effective 152 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 1: you mean a child who can think for herself, a 153 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: child who is genuinely concerned about the well being of 154 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: others even when there's nothing in it for her, A 155 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: child who is able to communicate effectively to trust, respect 156 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: and be respected a child who is happy. The more 157 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: ambitious your goals are for your children, the more you 158 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: should run from any version of time out or other 159 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 1: versions of rewards and punishment. 160 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 3: Alfie Cone is our guest on our podcast today. We're 161 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 3: going to continue our chat with Alfie in just a second. 162 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 5: It's the Happy Families Podcast. 163 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 6: US Screens Creating Tension at Home, Tweens, Teens and Screens 164 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:46,319 Speaker 6: is a webinar to guide families to healthy, safe superscreen solutions. 165 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 6: Bye today at happyfamilies dot com, dot you slash shop. 166 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 3: It's the Happy Families Podcast with Justin and Kylie Colson. 167 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,839 Speaker 3: Today's guest Alfie Kohne, the author of Punished by Rewards, 168 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 3: Unconditional Parents, and a whole range of other books. It's 169 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 3: so good to be talking with you again, Alfie. 170 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 5: You bet so, Alfie. 171 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 4: We've been talking about time out and how it's linked 172 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 4: controlling our kids. But I'm thinking about these parents who 173 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 4: are with us today and just wondering what am I 174 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 4: supposed to do with a child who just won't do 175 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 4: what I ask? 176 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:20,239 Speaker 3: What is one. 177 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 4: Simple tip that you would suggest to give these parents 178 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 4: reassurance that they've actually got this, they can do it. 179 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: I need to know whether it's worth doing. As I 180 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: said in our last conversation, much of the time, not 181 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: all of the time, but much of the time, instead 182 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: of asking how do I get kids to do this? 183 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: If I can't use bribes and threats. The problem is 184 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: not with the kid's refusal. The problem is with the 185 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: inappropriateness of what we're asking kids to do, and the 186 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,199 Speaker 1: fact that it may be more for our convenience than 187 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: for helping because the child needs it or will benefit 188 00:10:55,480 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: from it. And then some version of eliciting from kids 189 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 1: their experience and figuring out, even if they can't tell 190 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: us in words yet, why they're acting the way they do. 191 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,599 Speaker 1: Because if kids are shrieking, if they're reacting in a 192 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: way that we find very disturbing and annoying, it's often 193 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: because that's the only way they have of communicating their 194 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: understandable pain or resistance. Our job. 195 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:25,839 Speaker 2: And by the way, this is something I didn't say in. 196 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: Our past two conversations, but what we have to do 197 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: is move beyond behavior. I have this little rule of thumb, 198 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: which is that the value of a resource for parents, 199 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: which would include a podcast, an article, a book, a lecture. 200 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: The value of a resource for parents is inversely proportional 201 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: to the number of times it contains the word behavior. 202 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 3: I think this is the first time we've used that 203 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 3: word in three conversations. 204 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:53,719 Speaker 5: I'm feeling good about it. 205 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, right, good on us. 206 00:11:55,800 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: But the point is that that's not true for most 207 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:06,199 Speaker 1: people who focus on that. What defined BF Skinner as 208 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: a behaviorist wasn't just his use of reinforcers to control 209 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: pigeons or children. It's the fact that he literally believed 210 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: there is nothing to us other than behaviors that you 211 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 1: can see and measure. The more you believe that's true 212 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: and you talk, you go to your pediatrician, you know, 213 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: you go to your therapist or whatever, and say, how 214 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: do I deal with my child's behavior or misbehavior it's 215 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 1: called misbehavior where the more powerful person doesn't like it. 216 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: How do I deal with the behavior? You're already lost 217 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 1: because the answer is almost always going to be some 218 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: version of a bribe or a threat. 219 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 5: Someone's better say how do I help a child? How 220 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 5: do I how do I understand my child? How do 221 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 5: I work up? 222 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:57,839 Speaker 1: What matters are? The are the needs, the values, the 223 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: goals that under lovey and inform the actions, because when 224 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: you're talking about a kid's behavior as being problematic, you're 225 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: probably going to fall back on a reward or repunishment, 226 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: which can temporarily buy you a different behavior, but you've 227 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: lost your child when you're looking at only the behavior 228 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: on the surface. What I call a working with approach, 229 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: which begins with the complete cessation of all rewards and punishments. 230 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 1: A working with approach will play out differently depending on 231 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: the child and the situation and you, but it will 232 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: always be about looking underneath the behavior at the child 233 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: him or herself. 234 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 3: For the last question, because that time is fostpent, would 235 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 3: you agree that it is appropriate from time to time 236 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 3: to say, we're all a little bit emotional right now. 237 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 3: None of us are dealing well with the situation. We 238 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 3: need to have some and I'm using the wood intentionally now, 239 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 3: we need to have some time out to recalibrate and 240 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 3: to rearient ourselves so that we can deal with this 241 00:13:58,200 --> 00:13:59,479 Speaker 3: situation more effectively. 242 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: As long as you're not projecting your need onto the 243 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,199 Speaker 1: child and pretending the child feels that way when the 244 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,319 Speaker 1: child doesn't, and only you do. With that caveat, I 245 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: would say sure some time apart to be by myself, 246 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: each of us and calm down, take a breath, think 247 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: about stuff. Yeah, that can be a very useful anger 248 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: management tool, but it's critical. What distinguishes a useful anger 249 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: management tool from a rather cruel punishment is whether the 250 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: child has control. If you invite the child to go 251 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: to his bedroom and we can both calm down, that's fine. 252 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: The child must be able to decide where to go, 253 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: what to do there, when to come back. If that's 254 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: out of the child's hands, then it's not a useful 255 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: anger management tool. 256 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 5: It's become a punishment. Yeah. Yes, on. 257 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 3: There have been many times, elfywhere I've looked at my 258 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 3: children and said, I'm not coping with this very well, 259 00:14:58,040 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 3: I'm going to send myself to my room until i 260 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 3: can c about and behave like an adult. And that's 261 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 3: worked just fine because it was about me, it wasn't 262 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 3: it wasn't it about them. Great talking to you For 263 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 3: people who wanted to find out more. We'll add all 264 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 3: the links to your books and to your wonderful resources 265 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 3: in our show notes. Thank you so much for your 266 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 3: generous conversation. Thank you well, such a great conversation. A 267 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 3: really big thank you again. Alfie really appreciate your time. 268 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 3: And if you missed out, we have two other conversations 269 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 3: with Alfie on punishment and rewards and unconditional parenting, so 270 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 3: make sure that you have a listened to them. 271 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 5: We really hope you enjoyed the podcast. 272 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 3: If you do enjoy the podcast, can you visit Apple 273 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 3: Podcasts and leave a rating and review a five star 274 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 3: review and rating if you don't mind. We really appreciate 275 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 3: those because when you do that, it helps other people 276 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 3: to find the podcast and have happier families. Oh, by 277 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 3: the way, some news about that that I'm going to 278 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 3: tell you about tomorrow. The Happy Families podcast is produced 279 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 3: by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. Thank you very much 280 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 3: Justin and Our executive producer is Craig Bruce. If you'd 281 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 3: like more info about how we can help you families 282 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 3: to flourish, you can find all the information on our 283 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 3: Facebook page doctor Justin Gilson's Happy Families, or at happyfamilies 284 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 3: dot com dot au.