Speaker 1: Life Uncut podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout
Speaker 1: Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We
Speaker 1: pay our respect to their elders past and present and
Speaker 1: extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait islander
Speaker 1: peoples today.
Speaker 2: This episode is recorded on Gadigal Land of the Aurora Nation.
Speaker 2: Hey guys, and welcome back to another episode of Life
Speaker 2: on Cut. I'm producer Keisha, and I've just got a quick.
Speaker 3: Thirty second explainer for you of what is happening with
Speaker 3: today's episode.
Speaker 2: This is part two of the episodes. So if you have.
Speaker 3: Found yourself here and you haven't listened to part one,
Speaker 3: go and have a quick little search to your podcast libraries.
Speaker 3: Listen to part one first and then you can come
Speaker 3: and join us back here. In part one of today episode, obviously,
Speaker 3: the whole world at the moment is talking about these
Speaker 3: abortion bands that are happening in the US. Laura and
Speaker 3: Britt sat down with Sam Kazlowski, the co founder of
Speaker 3: The Daily Odz, to explain what is going on and
Speaker 3: kind of all the legal jargon and what it means
Speaker 3: for these women in America and for Part two of
Speaker 3: this episode, Britain Laura were joined by neuropsychologists doctor Hannah
Speaker 3: Corral to talk about navigating friendships throughout different stages of
Speaker 3: your life.
Speaker 1: So let's get into that chat today.
Speaker 2: We're talking about friendship on the podcast and now, I
Speaker 2: think when we speak about friendship, we speak about relationships
Speaker 2: so much. And one of the biggest relationships that we
Speaker 2: have to navigate throughout our life is our relationships with
Speaker 2: our friends. Now, we did a podcast episode many many
Speaker 2: many moons ago with neuropsychologists doctor Hannah Corral, and she
Speaker 2: is back at joining us today. But what we're talking
Speaker 2: about on today's episode is something slightly different. We're talking
Speaker 2: about how do you navigate friendships when you enter into
Speaker 2: extremely different life stages than your friends. And we're talking,
Speaker 2: for example, what if your friends start having babies, or
Speaker 2: they're getting married, or even if they're studying for something
Speaker 2: really important but you're off traveling, how do you maintain
Speaker 2: that close connection. So doctor Hannah, we are so excited
Speaker 2: to have you here today. Welcome back to the podcast.
Speaker 2: Oh so good to be here. Now, Hannah.
Speaker 1: Hannah did come on, like Laura said, Hannah was on
Speaker 1: with us when was that was it back in January
Speaker 1: maybe at the start of the year, so probably six
Speaker 1: months ago. And we did make Hannah do an accidentally unfiltered,
Speaker 1: like we make every single guest, and we thought, do
Speaker 1: we let her get away with another one or.
Speaker 2: Do we put her on the spot.
Speaker 1: See she's got any other embarrassing stories and you have
Speaker 1: come through with the goods, Hannah, you do have another
Speaker 1: embarrassing story. I mean the last time we spoke, the
Speaker 1: embarrassing story was milky Feet, but brief.
Speaker 2: But Britt, I actually think it was pre covid. It
Speaker 2: was like it was years ago. Hasn't been on the
Speaker 2: podcast for two years because I was out dancing. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's free lockdown.
Speaker 1: I have no concept of time. This is what covid
Speaker 1: has done to me. I'm like, I don't know, was
Speaker 1: it yesterday? Was it five years ago?
Speaker 2: Who knows? I've come up with another juicy one for
Speaker 2: I was up all night last night going They're gonna
Speaker 2: ask was rocking in my bed? I'm gonna ask, what
Speaker 2: do I tell them?
Speaker 1: We don't want to be that podcast that injuices anxiety.
Speaker 2: Before you come on as a guest, do I racked
Speaker 2: my brains? I've come up with one guy, Okay, hit this,
Speaker 2: what have you got? So if you follow my Instagram,
Speaker 2: you'll know that my cat, Jeff, who is a rescue cat.
Speaker 2: He features heavily on my Instagram. And when I first
Speaker 2: got him, he had a very sensitive tummy. He was
Speaker 2: a flatulent little cat. Gotta love that, so used to
Speaker 2: have I don't know, I think I was just feeding
Speaker 2: him the wrong stuff. So it used to be like
Speaker 2: a little he'd get like a really distended tummy and
Speaker 2: he'd be like a little balloon. But he's very cute,
Speaker 2: super cute cat anyway, like a bloated round hat full
Speaker 2: of potter. So I was dating a guy. I quite
Speaker 2: liked him actually, And I have you guys ever seen
Speaker 2: singing bowls? You know, singing bowls? Yeah, yeah, band therapy
Speaker 2: and stuff I love. I've got the two beautiful singing bowls.
Speaker 2: And so we were on the floor like I'm about
Speaker 2: to start this incredible sound therapy session for him with
Speaker 2: this beautiful singing. I'm like, this is your heart chakra
Speaker 2: and this is your throat chakra, explaining all the like
Speaker 2: quantum mechanics to him and he's like, oh wow. And
Speaker 2: then Jeff bless his little soul comes and sits right
Speaker 2: beside him, and I'm like, I'll just move him out
Speaker 2: the way. As I push him away, he deflats. Just oh,
Speaker 2: the most rape you should smell, and then bless this
Speaker 2: guy's soul. We sat there and were like, just pretended
Speaker 2: we couldn't smell this hideous fart well whilst you did sing. Anyway,
Speaker 2: I don't recommend it as the first day guys.
Speaker 1: Oh, I can think of this guy thinking right, is
Speaker 1: like when you're like, hey, come into my house, come
Speaker 1: lay on the floor with me, and I'll do singing bowls.
Speaker 1: He's probably like, yeah, this is some sex move I
Speaker 1: haven't heard of. Yeah, we're gonna get freaky.
Speaker 2: Then he just gets farted on by a cat. Funnily enough,
Speaker 2: nothing eventually after that.
Speaker 1: Also, this is why you need This is what I
Speaker 1: say to people. This is a really good reason to
Speaker 1: have a dog. Yes, or of any pet. Yes their therapy.
Speaker 1: Yes they're a companion. But at the end of the
Speaker 1: day you can use them as a cover if you
Speaker 1: do a part for clarity.
Speaker 2: If the guy is listening, I swear it was not
Speaker 2: me with definitely jes doctor Hannah. We're so excited to
Speaker 2: have you back on the podcast. But before we get
Speaker 2: into unpacking all of the conversations around friendships, I know
Speaker 2: that there's going to be a few people out there
Speaker 2: who didn't listen to our first interview. So can you
Speaker 2: explain to everyone what is a neuropsychologist? Yeah, that's the
Speaker 2: great question. Nobody knows. Yeah, yeah, So we're quite a
Speaker 2: rare specialty. I think there's like seven thousand all of Australia.
Speaker 2: So neuropsychology is a type of psychology where we assess
Speaker 2: brain disorders. So we do the pen and paper testing
Speaker 2: to figure out what part of your brain is working
Speaker 2: well and what part of your brain isn't working so well.
Speaker 2: So you can put someone in a scanner like an
Speaker 2: MRI or a CT scanner and you can find out
Speaker 2: what the structure of their brain looks like and maybe
Speaker 2: even a little bit about the functional imaging of their brain.
Speaker 2: But most of those scans just show you a picture
Speaker 2: like an X ray of a break in your arm.
Speaker 2: It doesn't actually tell you what it functionally can do.
Speaker 2: So it doesn't tell you what your brain can do
Speaker 2: in terms of attention, speed, executive function, memory. We come
Speaker 2: in and we test those parts of your brain so
Speaker 2: that we can tell the doctors. Okay, this part of
Speaker 2: Laura's brain's working amazingly and this other part might need
Speaker 2: more help. I mean, maybe I should get the test down.
Speaker 2: Need the test. So I basically do a lot of diagnosis,
Speaker 2: so things like autism, ADHD, dementia, intellectual disabilities, things like that.
Speaker 2: But you have written a book and that's what we
Speaker 2: discussed last time you joined us on how to break
Speaker 2: up with friends? Correct? What was it about friendships that
Speaker 2: was a real driving force view that made you want
Speaker 2: to have a greater and broader conversation around it. I
Speaker 2: think from my background so I'm like, I've done a
Speaker 2: PhD in neuroscience, I'm a neuropsychologist obviously my background. I
Speaker 2: was a psychologist first, and I specialized love the science
Speaker 2: of relationships and the actual the science on toxic relationships
Speaker 2: is fascinating. We have a lot of data on what
Speaker 2: it does to your body when you're in a chronic
Speaker 2: toxic relationship, whether that's domestic or friendship or work related,
Speaker 2: it has a serious physiological effect on your body. And
Speaker 2: even though we have all this incredible data, we don't
Speaker 2: really talk about it very much. When it comes to friendship.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I just found it really fascinating and
Speaker 2: I just started writing one day and yeah, a year
Speaker 2: later it was a manuscript, so I got it publish.
Speaker 1: Hannah, this is why we get people like you on
Speaker 1: because you are so overclassed. You have so you're like,
Speaker 1: I have this degree, this degree, this degree, this PhD.
Speaker 2: This is what I've done.
Speaker 1: This is why we get you because Laura and I
Speaker 1: we're very, very enthusiastic, but you actually know you shit.
Speaker 1: Do you think when we're jumping into friendships like this
Speaker 1: is something? I don't know if you guys have heard
Speaker 1: this now. I don't know if this is like a
Speaker 1: myth or but you see them on the Instagram quotes
Speaker 1: and things like that. They say, if you've been friends
Speaker 1: with someone for seven years, is you'll you'll be friends forever.
Speaker 1: Do you think that's accurate or do you think a
Speaker 1: friendship can end after any time? Do you think you
Speaker 1: could be best friends with someone for twenty years and
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden you're like, oh, you're not
Speaker 1: my person anymore.
Speaker 2: That's an awesome question. I think you know. It taps
Speaker 2: into the concept of familiarity, and familiarity is one of
Speaker 2: the things that help us to form a foundation or
Speaker 2: connection with a person and find a tribe. I do
Speaker 2: think that it's probably wishful thinking to think you get
Speaker 2: to a magic number and then you're just solid forever.
Speaker 2: It's sort of like saying, if you can get to
Speaker 2: seven years in a marriage, your marriage will never go wrong.
Speaker 2: But that's kind of hard to We can't predict those things,
Speaker 2: and things happen in life especially. I don't know about
Speaker 2: you guys, but decades are passing very quickly for me
Speaker 2: at the moment.
Speaker 1: So yes, I mean, I thought you were on the
Speaker 1: podcast six months ago.
Speaker 2: I was like two years ago. I had six months
Speaker 2: ago too, Literally season one, My life is flashing before
Speaker 2: my eyes. Yeah, so you really do have significant changes
Speaker 2: that you can go through in life. So there's things
Speaker 2: that can happen. I'm sure we'll talk about that today,
Speaker 2: like friendships, changing with children, marriages, deaths in the family,
Speaker 2: career changes, all of those things can happen, and they
Speaker 2: don't necessarily. I think time and longitudinal friendships buffer you.
Speaker 2: They certainly give you a better buffer in case something
Speaker 2: goes wrong, so you've got a little wider I don't
Speaker 2: like to use the analogy of pac Man, and I'm
Speaker 2: eating away at that buffer, and so you've got a
Speaker 2: wider buffer that might be eaten through before your friendship
Speaker 2: would be at risk of ending. But I don't think
Speaker 2: that time is the only thing that predicts the quality
Speaker 2: of friendship. And I guess one of the things as well,
Speaker 2: Like when we think about these our friendship's changing over
Speaker 2: the years. It's definitely happened to me since I've had
Speaker 2: kids in terms of like your priority shift, not just
Speaker 2: your priorities, but like the physical amount of time that
Speaker 2: you have to invest in the things that you used
Speaker 2: to be able to invest in, and one of those
Speaker 2: being friendships. You know, I used to be able to
Speaker 2: go out for dinners on it whatever night I wanted to,
Speaker 2: and see my friends on the weekends, and those things
Speaker 2: don't happen with the same frequency anymore, especially because a
Speaker 2: lot of them I don't have children, and so you know,
Speaker 2: they don't want to come to the park and hang
Speaker 2: out at the park on a Sunday morning at nine am,
Speaker 2: and I don't want to go out on a Friday
Speaker 2: night at ten o'clock. So like the things kind of
Speaker 2: shift in that way. But I mean this is probably
Speaker 2: a big question to throw out you from the very start,
Speaker 2: But how do you think when you hit those really
Speaker 2: different milestones, how do you think that you can maintain
Speaker 2: a quality amount of friendship or how do you maintain
Speaker 2: sort of the same level of intensity or if it's
Speaker 2: even possible. I mean, this is a great question. I think.
Speaker 2: Last time was on the podcast, we talked a little
Speaker 2: bit about the Dunbar number, which is how many friends,
Speaker 2: how many really really really close friends your brain can
Speaker 2: actually handle. So looking at that from a different lens,
Speaker 2: if you guys, remember you know Dunbar is like this
Speaker 2: great sociologist who kind of mapped on the cortex of
Speaker 2: our brain with how many friends we could potentially handle.
Speaker 2: So it's a complex relationship. The closer the friendship, the
Speaker 2: more complex the relationship is. The closer any relationship is
Speaker 2: to you, whether it's a husband, a mother, a child,
Speaker 2: the more intimate the relationship, the more complexity is in
Speaker 2: your brain. So it takes up cognitive real estate in
Speaker 2: your brain. So they say about five people is how
Speaker 2: many we can handle on a really really close intimate level,
Speaker 2: and that includes your partner, your family, and your friends.
Speaker 2: And if you think about that, time wise, Laura, what
Speaker 2: you just said, you know, it makes sense. You've only
Speaker 2: got so much real estate in your brain and you've
Speaker 2: only got so many hours in your day. So I
Speaker 2: think firstly, being a little bit forgiving to yourself if
Speaker 2: you don't have an abundance of time, because you are
Speaker 2: giving it to people who you love and people who
Speaker 2: are important, like your children and your husband, and you know,
Speaker 2: maybe your family, seeing your mom, seeing your dad, those
Speaker 2: things are really important. I think women in society have
Speaker 2: a real problem with holding a lot of guilt that
Speaker 2: we have to do it all, we have to be
Speaker 2: there for everyone and taking on board, you know, if
Speaker 2: my friend was having a hard time and I needed
Speaker 2: to commit to, you know, going home and making Loly
Speaker 2: bags for my three year old's birthday because I've got
Speaker 2: to do so much work because you know, you're an
Speaker 2: amazing mum. And then we hold onto that guilt of
Speaker 2: like maybe I wasn't I wasn't as available because I
Speaker 2: had to take care of this little person, this little
Speaker 2: human being. But it's interesting that you say this idea
Speaker 2: of this dunbar being five people, because I don't think
Speaker 2: and I think a lot of mums would be thinking this.
Speaker 2: You never intentionally put your children into the same bracket
Speaker 2: as being your friends. You don't go, oh, I want
Speaker 2: to be friends with my three year old, you know,
Speaker 2: of course you become friends with them, you know. And
Speaker 2: it's funny because like I'll say to Maley, like, you're
Speaker 2: my best friend, and then some days I'm like, no, really,
Speaker 2: you're actually my best friend because I spend all my
Speaker 2: time with you. But like, there truly isn't enough space sometimes.
Speaker 2: And I don't think that there's ever an intentional thought
Speaker 2: of pushing people out of your life, but sometimes there
Speaker 2: is a type of erosion that happens to friendships when
Speaker 2: you don't get to be as intentional with them. I guess. Yeah,
Speaker 2: But when you.
Speaker 1: Think about it, five friends, like or not even friends,
Speaker 1: five people that your brain or your body can say
Speaker 1: I can tolerate five is not many. Like I have
Speaker 1: six people in my family.
Speaker 2: Super super close.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I only and that makes sense because I
Speaker 1: do. Do you have a really small number of people I
Speaker 1: keep in my life? And I've always wondered, I was like,
Speaker 1: is that just because I run myself ragged? Or is
Speaker 1: it because there's something a more deep seated issue where
Speaker 1: I physically don't have the brain capacity to give any
Speaker 1: more of me. And then there's a level of, like
Speaker 1: you just said, guilt. So I feel so selfish because
Speaker 1: maybe my friends need me right now, or but how
Speaker 1: do we know when we can cut that off? How
Speaker 1: do we know when it's way more important then maybe
Speaker 1: a friend that needs us at that time.
Speaker 2: Hmm. I think that gets sort of harder friendships and
Speaker 2: the changes we go through life. There's this term, this
Speaker 2: great word, it's called didactic shifts or didactic withdrawals, and
Speaker 2: that just refers to the energy that goes into the
Speaker 2: identity of you. So the identity of Brittany through university,
Speaker 2: or the identity of Laura as a business woman, or
Speaker 2: the identity of each of you as a media personality.
Speaker 2: So there's all these different identities in your life as
Speaker 2: you go through different stages of your life, and they
Speaker 2: change and shift as new parts of your life. Being
Speaker 2: a mother, being a wife, being a parent, being I
Speaker 2: don't know, a business person. All of those things are
Speaker 2: a didactic profile for you. There's a lot of energy
Speaker 2: that goes into those things, and everyone has that regardless
Speaker 2: of who you are, whatever thing it is that you
Speaker 2: are throwing yourself into that is part of profiling who
Speaker 2: you are. Yeah, that's exactly right. And then as things
Speaker 2: change in your life, as you get married, become a wife,
Speaker 2: become a mother, you have didactic withdrawals and didactic shifts,
Speaker 2: which means that you're taking energy from one part of
Speaker 2: your identity and putting into forming a new part of
Speaker 2: your identity. And it's quite well established in the literature
Speaker 2: that we know. For example, parents is a great example.
Speaker 2: They do have a contraction of their relationships in the
Speaker 2: first two years of bringing up children, where their friendship
Speaker 2: networks do shrink as they have to become quite a
Speaker 2: bit more insular to survive that period. You know, probably
Speaker 2: remember Laura, where you're not sleeping, you're not eating, you're
Speaker 2: barely going to the toilet yourself, let alone. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: so there's a huge amount of energy that's going into
Speaker 2: being a mom, surviving this new part of your life,
Speaker 2: which means that you don't have the same energy that
Speaker 2: you can put into other parts in your life. And
Speaker 2: it's not because you're a bad person, it's not because
Speaker 2: you don't care about your friends. It's because that energy
Speaker 2: has changed and you need to feel a different part
Speaker 2: of your identity, and there's not as much I suppose,
Speaker 2: cognitive real estate, emotional energy, and physical time to put
Speaker 2: into friendships at that point in your life. So what
Speaker 2: tends to happen in friendships when we hit these different stages,
Speaker 2: Because it's nice and ideal world to think, like, you know,
Speaker 2: you're going to be best friends with the same best
Speaker 2: friend throughout all of your life. I mean that Netflix
Speaker 2: series that everyone got into last year, which was Firefly Lane,
Speaker 2: and it was following these two young girls through their teenageyers,
Speaker 2: through their adulthood, through these all these different phases, and
Speaker 2: how they held onto this incredible friendship. And then obviously
Speaker 2: something happened at the end of the season. I was
Speaker 2: fall it for but it made me think in that time,
Speaker 2: I was like, that is so unique. I don't like
Speaker 2: and I'm sure that there are people out there who
Speaker 2: have managed to and have like lifelong thirty year old friends.
Speaker 2: I know there are so many of those people, but
Speaker 2: I would find it interesting if those people have never
Speaker 2: gone through periods where they've seen less of each other
Speaker 2: or had less of an intensity to the friendship. That's
Speaker 2: not to say that you're not friends with people for
Speaker 2: thirty years, of course you're going to be, but that
Speaker 2: relationship hasn't changed at all over those thirty years. Seems
Speaker 2: like a really unreasonable or like almost fantastical thing to
Speaker 2: be able to hold onto. Yeah, a bit unrealistic. I
Speaker 2: sort of like to think of it like orbiting planets, right,
Speaker 2: So we're sort of like planets orbiting around each other.
Speaker 2: So in the literature, again it's well established that you
Speaker 2: do have normal ebbs and flows of friendship as you
Speaker 2: go through those different life stages. So what we tend
Speaker 2: to align with people who have the same values as
Speaker 2: us at a particular time in our life. So it
Speaker 2: might have been at Uni, we really enjoyed going out together,
Speaker 2: we really enjoyed studding together. And then something happened and
Speaker 2: I started a family and that person started a business,
Speaker 2: and our priorities at that time shifted a little bit.
Speaker 2: So we're still friends, we still can chat with each other,
Speaker 2: we can still spend beautiful time together, but our planets
Speaker 2: have kind of just moved a little bit further apart
Speaker 2: in our orbits. And then one day they may come
Speaker 2: back together again as we move forward, and maybe they
Speaker 2: become a parent and they seek advice from our experience
Speaker 2: as a parent, and we start a business and we
Speaker 2: seek advice from them how they found, you know, being
Speaker 2: a soul trader. So it's a little bit like your
Speaker 2: orbiting planets that are sometimes coming together and then sometimes
Speaker 2: moving away. Think what changes is the amount of energy.
Speaker 2: So I talk in the book about the different types
Speaker 2: of energy that we can give. So you have time,
Speaker 2: you've got energy, and you've got money that you can
Speaker 2: give to another person. So it might just be that
Speaker 2: at that time in your life there's less physical time
Speaker 2: in your schedule, in your calendar that you can spend
Speaker 2: with this individual. But we've all got those friends that
Speaker 2: you see and you know it's like no time has passed.
Speaker 2: It feels like you've just been speaking with them. You
Speaker 2: can have an amazing friendship with someone that you only
Speaker 2: see maybe once every three months or once every six months,
Speaker 2: or it's an occasional text message and then a proper
Speaker 2: catch up. You can't have friendships like that.
Speaker 1: So I have my best friend Shannon. We've been best
Speaker 1: friends thirty thirty one years and in that time, this
Speaker 1: is no exaggeration, we have not had one argument, one
Speaker 1: disagreement ever. Like we were just very lucky that the
Speaker 1: universe gave us two people that get along like you've
Speaker 1: never ever imagined. She is in a place where she's
Speaker 1: got two kids now. We live in a different state.
Speaker 1: She got married years ago. We took very different paths,
Speaker 1: but that didn't change the friendship at all in terms
Speaker 1: of how much we care for each other and how
Speaker 1: much we do for each other. What it did change
Speaker 1: is the physical time that you spend together. But I
Speaker 1: think that's a part of growing up as well. She's
Speaker 1: in a different state. The way that we catch up
Speaker 1: now is very, very different, and that is something that
Speaker 1: was it's a really hard adjustment. There definitely has a
Speaker 1: level of adaptations that you have to do as individuals
Speaker 1: and a level of understanding, and there's a lot of
Speaker 1: emotions that come with this. There's a lot of jealousy
Speaker 1: that comes along with for both parties. But I think
Speaker 1: the number one thing is that you have to be
Speaker 1: able to adapt to your your friend's situation. At the
Speaker 1: end of the day, I couldn't just call her whenever
Speaker 1: I want. She's not gonna be on the phone anymore
Speaker 1: whenever I want, because she's looking after two children, she's
Speaker 1: running a school. I can't just turn up and say, hey,
Speaker 1: let's go and hang out for the weekend, much like
Speaker 1: I do with Laura now. But I think if you
Speaker 1: are really conscious of each other's friendships, and you check
Speaker 1: in with yourself about where your friends are at, and
Speaker 1: you're really honest and you're okay with it, I think
Speaker 1: that friendships can last this time, They can last the distance,
Speaker 1: but you both have to be very very conscious of
Speaker 1: where your other person is at. When friendships, I mean,
Speaker 1: you're I'm going to ask you in a second, but
Speaker 1: I think where the friendships go wrong is where there's
Speaker 1: no level of communication and there is a level of selfishness,
Speaker 1: like I'm not okay with the fact that you're out
Speaker 1: partying all the time when I'm stuck at home with kids,
Speaker 1: or I'm not okay with the fact that you get
Speaker 1: to have this love life and I'm alone on my
Speaker 1: own all the time. So I think it's this level
Speaker 1: of like just having open communication.
Speaker 2: Yeah, into two qualities that probably are really important to mention.
Speaker 2: One is expectations. What is your expectation when your friendship
Speaker 2: changes when somebody has had a baby. Do you have
Speaker 2: the level of insight and awareness to understand that friend
Speaker 2: it's not personal. It's not that they don't like me anymore.
Speaker 2: They physically are wiping poop off the walls and the
Speaker 2: ceilings and the floors. They don't have time for coffee
Speaker 2: and you know, you know, Margarita's at the bar like
Speaker 2: they used to. And that's nothing to do with the
Speaker 2: quality of our friendship or how much they like me.
Speaker 2: So it involves a level of maturity which you would
Speaker 2: hope someone would have at that age when you're starting
Speaker 2: to have children, to understand, this is not a reflection
Speaker 2: of our friendship. This is a reflection of the fact
Speaker 2: that I just lack the time that are used to
Speaker 2: have to go and do the same things that we
Speaker 2: used to do. I guess the big thing in that though,
Speaker 2: is just because it's not necessarily a reflection of the relationship.
Speaker 2: So like I mean, and there's a big conversation around
Speaker 2: here that it's not always a relationship. It can be
Speaker 2: the circumstances, right, and they're two very different things to
Speaker 2: try and identify. That doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt less.
Speaker 2: And for the person who feels left behind in that
Speaker 2: friendship or the person who feels like, well, my life
Speaker 2: hasn't changed, but I've lost that person who was my
Speaker 2: go to. It can be really, really hard, and yes,
Speaker 2: it takes a level of maturity, but I don't think
Speaker 2: that we can completely discount that. Like, it's still okay
Speaker 2: to have feelings of jealousy or have feelings of warning
Speaker 2: a relationship, because it can feel like a breakup, even
Speaker 2: if it's not a breakup, it's just a shift. Oh,
Speaker 2: bang on the nail on the head, head on the
Speaker 2: nail on the nail, whatever it was you hit it, Flora,
Speaker 2: that is exactly right. And the different types of jealousy,
Speaker 2: you know, like that you mentioned that word because I
Speaker 2: think people can kind of tap into that feeling and
Speaker 2: there's a bit of shame associated with that. We don't
Speaker 2: necessarily want to acknowledge it. We can feel really hurt,
Speaker 2: we can feel left out, excluded, and those emotions really hurts.
Speaker 2: You know. In your brain, we have this thing called
Speaker 2: the anterior singular gyrus and that is the part of
Speaker 2: your brain that lights up when somebody I don't know
Speaker 2: kicks you in the shin. But it's also the same
Speaker 2: part of your brain that lights up when you have
Speaker 2: emotional pain. So your body actually your brain can't tell
Speaker 2: the difference between physical and emotional pain. It can hurt
Speaker 2: just as much. So like when we have a breakup,
Speaker 2: like with a romantic partner, your body actually floods you
Speaker 2: with a bunch of hormones that are like physical pain
Speaker 2: receptors being turned on. It's so interesting that you say that,
Speaker 2: because I think anybody who has been through a bad breakup,
Speaker 2: anyone who has felt the pain of a bad breakup,
Speaker 2: knows that goes beyond just feeling like it's in your
Speaker 2: head or in your heart, like you really from anxiety
Speaker 2: to feeling physically sick. It has a real physiological impact
Speaker 2: on you. Yes, and so literally saying things like when
Speaker 2: you have a partner or a friend who's gone through
Speaker 2: a breakup, telling them to actually have a panodol helps
Speaker 2: because their body their pain or Something'm not kidding.
Speaker 1: I've been on Europe for six months now, I'm about
Speaker 1: every painkiller.
Speaker 2: And a girl like, I get it. I get it.
Speaker 2: You know, I was there four weeks ago, and you physically,
Speaker 2: your body hurts, your heart is deflated. You know, these
Speaker 2: pain receptors in your body are actually going off. It's
Speaker 2: really easy for us to assume that mental health is
Speaker 2: a bit of you know, have a teaspoon of concrete
Speaker 2: and hardened up with In society, we have a real
Speaker 2: systemic issue with acknowledging emotional pain. But it's important to note, yeah,
Speaker 2: it does really hurt when it comes to you know,
Speaker 2: jealousy and being envious. And sometimes that's the core of
Speaker 2: what's going on. When we've had a friend and you know,
Speaker 2: I'm there, My sisters are all married with children, and
Speaker 2: I'm you know, single and wanting those things, but I'm
Speaker 2: not there yet. There is a bit of envy there.
Speaker 2: There's a bit of like I want that for myself.
Speaker 2: And I think jealousy is a word that it's caught
Speaker 2: this negative connotation to it, and it's not necessarily a
Speaker 2: bad thing. And in the book, if I can, I'll
Speaker 2: mention like we've got a questionnaire in the book which
Speaker 2: is about the different types of jealousy that you can feel,
Speaker 2: and the Dutch have really nailed the terminology. So there's
Speaker 2: two different types of jealousy. You can all envy that
Speaker 2: you can feel, which is really wanting something that someone
Speaker 2: else has achieved in their life, and that's not a
Speaker 2: bad thing. It can be a lovely thing. It's so
Speaker 2: interesting you say that, though, because you are so right.
Speaker 2: We think of jealousy as being such a dirty emotion,
Speaker 2: but we all can feel it at different times, and
Speaker 2: it's how you react to a feeling. Having a feeling
Speaker 2: doesn't make you a bad person, nor should you feel
Speaker 2: guilty for it, but it's how do your actions then
Speaker 2: flow on from that? But what is the what is
Speaker 2: the Dutch the Dutch work? Yeah, so you've got beniagen.
Speaker 2: I'm probably butchering this beniegened, which is benign envy, and
Speaker 2: then you've got aft gunst, which is more of a
Speaker 2: malicious intent. It's envy with a malicious intention to it.
Speaker 2: So benegened envy. And there's a questionnaire in the book
Speaker 2: where you can actually identify what type of envy are
Speaker 2: you feeling for your friend? Is it benegen? Is it
Speaker 2: a benign envy where you're just admiring what they've achieved
Speaker 2: in their life and you would like you aspire to
Speaker 2: that as well, which is a beautiful quality. That's probably
Speaker 2: why you're friends with that person, because you admire what
Speaker 2: they've done with their life and you share the same values.
Speaker 2: I would like to be there too, one day, I
Speaker 2: would like to have a beautiful marriage with communication and
Speaker 2: an incredible partner and children one day. I think that's
Speaker 2: a beautiful thing that you've achieved, whereas aft gunst would
Speaker 2: be we've probably all been there. That's the toxic type
Speaker 2: of relationship where you have that friend who's a bit
Speaker 2: more like the frenemy, who lacks that respect for you fundamentally,
Speaker 2: who maybe is passive aggressive, who's constantly undermining you, and
Speaker 2: the words that are coming out of their mouths are hurtful,
Speaker 2: and it causes you pain to hang out with that
Speaker 2: person because underneath the layers there's this really insidious, i
Speaker 2: suppose corrosive feeling going on where they're undermining you because
Speaker 2: they've got that malicious feeling towards you. There's something that
Speaker 2: brit said earlier which I'd love to kind of go
Speaker 2: back to a little bit, and it's this idea that
Speaker 2: and I'm sure everybody has felt this in their friendships.
Speaker 2: Where we have so much going on in lives. We
Speaker 2: just survived a pandemic. People are busy with their jobs,
Speaker 2: people are busy with their families. So many of us
Speaker 2: feel like in our own lives that we're up to
Speaker 2: our eyeballs with our own stress or our own anxiety,
Speaker 2: or our own feelings of overwhelm or whatever it is.
Speaker 2: That then sometimes you feel like you're too at your
Speaker 2: limit to take on somebody else's And you know, I
Speaker 2: think a lot of us or at different times, may
Speaker 2: have experienced friendships where the friendships are quite demanding in
Speaker 2: that the other person's problem always seems like the bigger problem,
Speaker 2: which and this can happen a lot in friendships when
Speaker 2: one person has kids and the other person doesn't, it
Speaker 2: can often feel one sided. Well, the person who has kids,
Speaker 2: their problems are always the bigger problem because they've always
Speaker 2: got something that's pressing in there. And now, how do
Speaker 2: you work through that or how do you find a
Speaker 2: good balance for yourself when you're at a point where
Speaker 2: you're like, I can't physically take on any more of
Speaker 2: other people's problems because I've got my own shit going on.
Speaker 2: How do you do that? But in a kind and
Speaker 2: compassionate way. It is tricky, and I've been there with
Speaker 2: my My sisters are like my best mates, and it
Speaker 2: is a little bit like that sometimes when there's a
Speaker 2: relativity to issues and we only have so much emotional
Speaker 2: capacity I don't know if you guys have heard with
Speaker 2: like emotional will power. You know, you think of Barack
Speaker 2: Obama or Mark Zuckerberg. They had this really nifty idea
Speaker 2: where they're basically limiting the amount of choices that they
Speaker 2: make in a day by wearing the same outfits again
Speaker 2: and again and again. Because we have you know, it's
Speaker 2: a bit like the mental load, right, you only have
Speaker 2: so much emotional willpower. And we talk about this a
Speaker 2: lot with things like neurodiversity. Your emotional cup and how
Speaker 2: much you can carry in your emotional cup gets filled
Speaker 2: up really quickly. And if you throw children in the
Speaker 2: mix and a marriage in the mix, and you haven't
Speaker 2: got a lot of room leftover, you haven't got a
Speaker 2: lot of buffer leftover to manage somebody else's emotions. So,
Speaker 2: you know, I think it's a little bit of patience
Speaker 2: with yourself and forgiveness with yourself, understanding what are your
Speaker 2: boundaries and what are your limits and how much have
Speaker 2: you got to give sometimes being realistic about that, and
Speaker 2: if it's stressing you out and running you ragged, to
Speaker 2: try to book in the coffee date and to be
Speaker 2: there for your friend when you're panicking about what's going
Speaker 2: on at home, recognizing maybe you're just not in that
Speaker 2: place right at that moment to be able to give
Speaker 2: that emotional energy and that's okay. It's okay to have
Speaker 2: those days. And then the opposite of that, the flip
Speaker 2: side of that, is recognizing it's okay to carve out
Speaker 2: space in your life and time in your life to
Speaker 2: spend time with some friends and to have a break.
Speaker 2: And I think you know, we talked about this a
Speaker 2: little earlier. Women sometimes have a real problem with being
Speaker 2: able to just give themselves the permission to continue to
Speaker 2: maintain other parts of their identity and go, yeah, I
Speaker 2: really I'm going to keep going to the gym, I'm
Speaker 2: going to keep dancing, I'm going to keep seeing my
Speaker 2: friends occasionally, and I'm going to carve out I'm going
Speaker 2: to give myself this emotional space, this guilt free time
Speaker 2: to say, from this hour to this hour. It's a
Speaker 2: little bit like what we do sometimes in therapy is
Speaker 2: is just accept a little bit of acceptance acceptance commitment
Speaker 2: therapy where for this period of time, accepting that I'm
Speaker 2: here right now, there's nothing else I can do. I
Speaker 2: can't take care of the kids, I can't take care
Speaker 2: of the business. I'm just here right now, in this moment,
Speaker 2: and all I can do is be here with this person.
Speaker 2: I'm going to give myself the permission to not worry
Speaker 2: about that right now I'm in a park. It leave
Speaker 2: that worry and concern over here, and it will be
Speaker 2: there when I'm ready to pick it back up. That
Speaker 2: worry will still be there. But here and now, in
Speaker 2: this moment, I can be present with my friend, and
Speaker 2: I can just be with this other soul.
Speaker 1: I haven't really thought about it that much until right now. Actually,
Speaker 1: as you were talking, I was having this realization. But
Speaker 1: friendships are way more complex and way harder to navigate
Speaker 1: than a relationship.
Speaker 2: Isn't it.
Speaker 1: Because I feel like when you're in a relationship, you
Speaker 1: know you can go to that person, you know that
Speaker 1: they're there, you know that they're you're confident, you know
Speaker 1: if you're having a bad day, you're allowed to unload them.
Speaker 1: Vice versa with friendships. And I was thinking, it's just
Speaker 1: as you were talking, Laura, you don't want to be
Speaker 1: that person. When you know yourself, you're like, oh, okay, well,
Speaker 1: I don't have any room for other people problems. They
Speaker 1: probably don't have room for mine either, And this is
Speaker 1: something I've navigated the last sort of six eight months.
Speaker 1: A lot of people in my life didn't know that
Speaker 1: I was having a really, really fucking hard time because
Speaker 1: I don't want to be that person where I'm like,
Speaker 1: everyone's already got their problems, like everyone already has. I
Speaker 1: don't want to unload. I don't want to tell anyone
Speaker 1: that I'm struggling, or because you don't want to go
Speaker 1: and be that person to a friend that's already going
Speaker 1: through their own problems. How do you navigate that in
Speaker 1: a friendship? How do you decide because you've got to
Speaker 1: It's like the trickiest balance of any relationship of trying
Speaker 1: to be like I'm trying to be a good friend
Speaker 1: to you, but I need you now as well, but
Speaker 1: I don't have anyone else to go to, Like, how
Speaker 1: do you navigate these circumstances?
Speaker 2: Well, I was gonna say just on what you said
Speaker 2: as well, Britt. I think one of the hardest parts
Speaker 2: of this is and that we've spoken a lot about
Speaker 2: going into just becoming like a parent or like shifting
Speaker 2: into that stage, but from the other perspective as well,
Speaker 2: when you are single, and you rely therefore so much
Speaker 2: more heavily on your friends. That's when this becomes a
Speaker 2: much harder process to navigate, because like you've that support
Speaker 2: person or you've lost that. And I think that we
Speaker 2: plug into our friends in the same way that we
Speaker 2: when we're single, that we would plug into a romantic relationship.
Speaker 2: And so many of us have probably gone through when
Speaker 2: one of our friends have gotten into a romantic relationship
Speaker 2: and then we've lost them. They've just gone with their
Speaker 2: fucking smoke one, but they've gone to love, they've got
Speaker 2: they've got a boyfriend, and then we never saw them again.
Speaker 1: You know, so many people do that rip hold your
Speaker 1: funeral totally. I mean it's a hard question. I know,
Speaker 1: we've just given you like a very hard question.
Speaker 2: No, I mean there's so many different parts. So it's like, firstly,
Speaker 2: in the book, I talk about, let's break down what
Speaker 2: the heck is a friendship? What are the pillars of friendship?
Speaker 2: And you know, I think they sit under the umbrella
Speaker 2: of reciprocity, which is it doesn't mean transactional relationships. I
Speaker 2: did this, so you did this, and I bought you this,
Speaker 2: so you brought me this. That's kind of a more
Speaker 2: immature understanding of reciprocity in a relationship, which is tit
Speaker 2: for tat, Whereas a reciprocal relationship is one where there's
Speaker 2: mutual interests, there's mutual caring, there's mutual empathy, and there's
Speaker 2: a back and forth flow and sometimes it's a little
Speaker 2: more from one person and sometimes it's a little less,
Speaker 2: but it's a constant flow, and it's a constant willingness
Speaker 2: and reaching out and a constant desire to be connected
Speaker 2: with one another in whatever means that is. And I
Speaker 2: think the pillars of friendship underneath is affection, respect, trust,
Speaker 2: and support. So, brittany kind of what you're tapping into
Speaker 2: there is we all have our own insecurities. We all
Speaker 2: have our own core beliefs that sit deep down in
Speaker 2: our hearts about what the way we believe the world
Speaker 2: to be. These core beliefs, which are these filters that
Speaker 2: brainwash us from a very young age, that tell us
Speaker 2: how to interpret our world. And if way deep down
Speaker 2: one of those triggers for you or those core beliefs
Speaker 2: are things like not good enough for this is I
Speaker 2: don't want to burden people. I'm a burden. My worries
Speaker 2: are concerns are burdening people, or I'm unlikable or unlovable
Speaker 2: in some way. The way in which we'll filter, we'll
Speaker 2: see our friendships is to go they don't want to
Speaker 2: hear about this, They're too busy to hear about this.
Speaker 2: I'm a burden, and we're looking through our issues through
Speaker 2: this lens of maybe maybe I'm not good enough. Maybe
Speaker 2: a friend doesn't want to hear this. But I think
Speaker 2: if you really reached out and had that trust with
Speaker 2: your friend where you're like, hey, I'm actually having a
Speaker 2: really tough time. I'm not feeling good, mate, I'm not
Speaker 2: feeling it. My heart's hurting. I'm hurting. This has been
Speaker 2: really hard for me, sort of almost that reaching out,
Speaker 2: that flow of friendship I was talking about before, where
Speaker 2: you reach out and say I'm not okay and trust
Speaker 2: that that friend is there to catch you and say, yep,
Speaker 2: I'm here for you. I'm going to sit with you.
Speaker 2: Maybe I don't know exactly what to say, but I
Speaker 2: can see you're in a dark place and I'm just
Speaker 2: going to sit beside you while you're here right now,
Speaker 2: do you think that there's links into how powerful vulnerability is,
Speaker 2: because when somebody is seemingly fine, and when we present
Speaker 2: that we're fine when we're not fine, that's not the
Speaker 2: person that gets tended to. You know, if you put
Speaker 2: on a hard exterior, people genuinely go, oh, they're right,
Speaker 2: they're all right, move on with their day. But when
Speaker 2: you sort of show your softer underbelly or show what's
Speaker 2: happening in your life in a way of communicating that
Speaker 2: to people who care about you, that vulnerability strengthens friendships.
Speaker 2: It's strengthens bonds. Vulnerability is a great word because the
Speaker 2: fear of wanting to I don't know, I guess you know.
Speaker 2: I think in Australia we have and probably around the world.
Speaker 2: The concept of friendship is this idea of having lots
Speaker 2: of friends is to be cool, to be popular. The
Speaker 2: essence of being cool is nonchalant, like too cool to care,
Speaker 2: cool as a cucumber, don't rock the boat, there's no issues.
Speaker 2: I'm the fun one. I'm the one who you know.
Speaker 2: I've never worked up, I never complain about anything, and
Speaker 2: I'm always positive. And you know, a lot of psychology
Speaker 2: is about being a positive presence when you're around other people,
Speaker 2: and they'll want to be around you. More, and this
Speaker 2: fear that if I am real, if I say I'm
Speaker 2: having a hard day, if I'm down one day and
Speaker 2: I show this other I take my mask off and
Speaker 2: I show this other part of myself which is feeling
Speaker 2: really crummy and I'm feeling really low, that our friend
Speaker 2: might not want to hang out with us anymore, and
Speaker 2: they might not lie hanging out with us. And there's
Speaker 2: a bit of a fear there where we're like, I
Speaker 2: don't want to unload my burden or I don't want
Speaker 2: to vent what's happening for me, because I don't want
Speaker 2: you to think I'm a buzzkill, Like God forbid, you're
Speaker 2: ever a buzzkill. And I guess that's where the trust
Speaker 2: part of the friendship and the support part of the
Speaker 2: friendship comes in. Of a true friendship is where you
Speaker 2: can trust that that person has a safety net for you,
Speaker 2: They're okay to hear what you're talking about, and you
Speaker 2: feel the ability. And I think Brittany and Laura, you
Speaker 2: guys have a beautiful friendship where you can trust each
Speaker 2: other to say, like, hey, I having a tough day,
Speaker 2: I'm having a hard time, and know that that person
Speaker 2: is going to be able to support you in that
Speaker 2: moment and you can trust that they're not going to
Speaker 2: get annoyed. Oh yeah, we have.
Speaker 1: I mean we have all levels of friendship, don't.
Speaker 2: Totally. And the reason why we wanted to do this
Speaker 2: episode is because when we met, I didn't have kids.
Speaker 2: So when we met, I was pregnant, and then we
Speaker 2: have weathered over the past two and a half years
Speaker 2: or three, so three and a half years now starting
Speaker 2: a business together, me having kids, different relationship stages for Brit, Like,
Speaker 2: there's been a lot of change that's happened in both
Speaker 2: our worlds. And it's interesting because I know that we
Speaker 2: keep coming back to this conversation around kids, and that's
Speaker 2: obviously because that's where I'm at in my life. But
Speaker 2: we have had times where like I feel jealous of
Speaker 2: BRIT's ability to live her life without being tied down,
Speaker 2: you know, with her being able to go overseas or
Speaker 2: go out for dinner, or her and produce a Keisha
Speaker 2: have a really strong friendship because they can go out
Speaker 2: for dinners and do things together, whereas I don't have
Speaker 2: that freedom anymore. So I think it works both ways.
Speaker 2: I think often we talk about how there's this want
Speaker 2: when there's like somebody who doesn't have children or hasn't
Speaker 2: isn't at that point in life. Yet we talk a
Speaker 2: lot about looking in on somebody's family and wanting what
Speaker 2: they have, whereas we never really also talk about the
Speaker 2: flip side of that of people going well, but my
Speaker 2: life has completely changed now and I miss some of
Speaker 2: those things from my old identity that I used to
Speaker 2: be able to do. So it works on both sides
Speaker 2: of the spectrum. But the thing that's obviously kept our
Speaker 2: friendship together is that we had this thing that we
Speaker 2: work on that's our joint project that we always get
Speaker 2: to come back to, and which means we have to
Speaker 2: see each other multiple times a week, Whereas if we
Speaker 2: were just friends that didn't have the work to come
Speaker 2: back to, we wouldn't see each other as much as
Speaker 2: what we do, And that wouldn't be because we don't
Speaker 2: love each other, but it would be because this is
Speaker 2: the thing that means that we have a responsibility and accountability.
Speaker 2: But kind of coming to that point, how can we
Speaker 2: be more intentional with our friendships? Yeah, that's actually really
Speaker 2: a beautiful model of friendship there. Because we talked earlier
Speaker 2: about that didactic profile of your identity and where you
Speaker 2: put your identity. If you guys have ever seen Ben
Speaker 2: diagrams overlapping circles, You've got that friendship circle overlapping with
Speaker 2: our business circle. And in the middle is that this
Speaker 2: beautiful sweet spot where you get time together because you
Speaker 2: have over shared interests and you have a shared investment,
Speaker 2: which is a great nifty way. So I don't know
Speaker 2: if anyone's listening, start a podcast with your friend everyone podcast.
Speaker 2: You're double spoking if I may. In the book, I
Speaker 2: talk about friendships and how you can maintain a solid
Speaker 2: relationship with friendships, and it helps if your friends are
Speaker 2: also friends with each other. So we think of like
Speaker 2: a wheel and the spokes of a wheel connecting other
Speaker 2: friends to each other and not just to you. Then
Speaker 2: it's not just reliant on you to maintain that friendship.
Speaker 2: But if your friends also know each other, then they're
Speaker 2: gonna sort out occasions to get together too, and it
Speaker 2: takes the pressure off you. You're double spoking in the
Speaker 2: sense that's a double spoke friendship where your friends are
Speaker 2: also friends with one another. What you've double spoked with
Speaker 2: is by having a friendship and a business together where
Speaker 2: you're overlapping in that sense too, So you're spending time
Speaker 2: together in that way too, And that's an awesome, nifty
Speaker 2: way of you know, solidify. Yeah, like let's go and
Speaker 2: learn SOLSA together. Let's do an eight week course of
Speaker 2: soulsa together, or let's go and do pottery together. Let's
Speaker 2: commit to something. This is why people love their boot camps,
Speaker 2: you know, committing with a friend to six am boot
Speaker 2: camp because then you know, you have to get up
Speaker 2: at six am because someone's holding you to account. Can
Speaker 2: you carve out a time that you can commit to
Speaker 2: something that forces you guys to sit in the same
Speaker 2: room together and you have to be there at five
Speaker 2: o'clock on a Friday at whatever, you know, twice a
Speaker 2: month something like that, where you're going to see each other.
Speaker 2: That's a that's a beautiful way of maintaining a friendship.
Speaker 1: We've spoken a lot about. I think one of the
Speaker 1: major transitions in friendships is when one starts to move
Speaker 1: away and settle down and have the kids and someone
Speaker 1: is single. I think that that is obviously a very
Speaker 1: very major part of friendship transitions. But what are some
Speaker 1: of the other ones that people might face in their friendships?
Speaker 1: I guess that could be like things like career moves, progression,
Speaker 1: moving into state.
Speaker 2: I actually want us to say, like what, Laura, you know, Laura,
Speaker 2: you just mentioned before we talked a little bit about
Speaker 2: you know, and both Britt and I are like single little
Speaker 2: children and you've got children, and it it feels a
Speaker 2: bit like single heavy. But I wanted to acknowledge what
Speaker 2: you said before about we don't talk the other way
Speaker 2: around about I don't have this free time like you have,
Speaker 2: and I'm envious of that beautiful relationship like Britt a
Speaker 2: Keisha have created. I don't have the time to just
Speaker 2: drop everything and come out to the bar or come
Speaker 2: out to dinner. There's a few key moments in life
Speaker 2: that until you have been through it, you just don't
Speaker 2: get it, and we have to accept that. Like some
Speaker 2: formative ones are things like the first time you've had sex.
Speaker 2: You know, until you've done it, you don't get it.
Speaker 1: Sometimes you do it, you still don't get it.
Speaker 2: We all shouldn't be laughing, so, you know, things like
Speaker 2: on a saddest side, things like experiencing a death in
Speaker 2: the family or a death in the friendship, being pregnant,
Speaker 2: having a child, being married, It's like there's a line,
Speaker 2: and until you have crossed that line and had that experience,
Speaker 2: you just don't really understand what it's about. And I
Speaker 2: think it can be it can be hard whatever stage
Speaker 2: you go through, whether it's traveling, whether it's partners, whether
Speaker 2: it's marriage, children, whatever it is, we have to kind
Speaker 2: of accept that there is unknown for one party compared
Speaker 2: to the other. We can't know exactly what it's like
Speaker 2: to walk a day in your shoes and to live
Speaker 2: what you live. I really love that you said, and
Speaker 2: I think it's one that we absolutely haven't touched on
Speaker 2: it and really should have, is experiencing a death in
Speaker 2: the family, experiencing the magnitude of grief we struggle, and
Speaker 2: we've spoken about this on a past episode with Led
Speaker 2: when we touched on grief. But I think as a
Speaker 2: society we avoid negative feelings, so we are often fearful
Speaker 2: of somebody who's experienced death, of asking like how they
Speaker 2: truly feel, for fear of triggering them being upset, not
Speaker 2: realizing that they're probably always thinking about it, especially in
Speaker 2: those initial days and weeks. Anyway, But I mean I
Speaker 2: have spoken to people who have been through significant deaths
Speaker 2: and something that somebody close to them, and I'm thinking
Speaker 2: of one specific time close and it said, like, I
Speaker 2: understand how you feel because I've been through a really
Speaker 2: bad breakup and almost comparing a bad breakup where they
Speaker 2: felt like it was a death to them to an
Speaker 2: actual death. And how hugely problematic sometimes trying to compare
Speaker 2: your circumstances because you want to relate, because you want
Speaker 2: to connect, but how that actually can be even more isolating,
Speaker 2: because there truly are some things in life that until
Speaker 2: you've lived it, you will not know, and a death
Speaker 2: and a breakup will never ever be the same. Sometimes
Speaker 2: just accepting I don't get this because I haven't experienced it,
Speaker 2: and I'm not going to try. I think there's a
Speaker 2: risk of belittling the experience if we try to artificially empathize.
Speaker 2: I think that's exactly it. Like you completely hit the
Speaker 2: nail on the head, and it really just brings me
Speaker 2: back to that comparison. You're trying to connect by making well,
Speaker 2: somebody who might make that connection is trying to connect,
Speaker 2: But truly, all that's doing is minimizing that person's pain
Speaker 2: by connecting with your pain. One thing before we do
Speaker 2: kind of wrap this up. How important do you think
Speaker 2: it is to have people in your life who are
Speaker 2: in the same phase of life, So for mums to
Speaker 2: be friends with mums, for people who are experiencing grief
Speaker 2: to connect with people who've experienced grief, for single people
Speaker 2: to have single friends. Whatever life looks like for you,
Speaker 2: how important is it for your community to reflect your
Speaker 2: phase of life. I think you're talking about having a tribe,
Speaker 2: and I think it's so important. I think there is
Speaker 2: a lot of happiness derived from a sense of community
Speaker 2: and a sense of connectedness and having some spokes on
Speaker 2: your darn wheel where you feel connected to multiple people.
Speaker 2: More people you have, the bigger your net feels. If
Speaker 2: you fall, you've got someone there to catch you. And
Speaker 2: there can be a lot of pressure. It's easy to
Speaker 2: connect with someone who is the same place of life.
Speaker 2: You know, the bonds that you would form in a
Speaker 2: mother's group, or the bonds you would form in an
Speaker 2: early business group, especially during COVID when you're worried you're
Speaker 2: going to lose the business. You're almost like forging through trauma.
Speaker 2: A bond with those people can be so very strong.
Speaker 2: But the pressure to find somebody who's in the same
Speaker 2: space of life might be hard, especially when we're adults,
Speaker 2: it is hard to find time to make friends. But
Speaker 2: taking the pressure off and being able to say, like,
Speaker 2: I don't know exactly what you're going through, but I'm
Speaker 2: going to try and help you in other ways, and
Speaker 2: those other ways might be tell me what that feels like,
Speaker 2: tell me about it, what was it like for you?
Speaker 2: And putting the hand on the back. You know, the
Speaker 2: power of putting your hand on someone's back and rubbing
Speaker 2: circles on their back can be huge.
Speaker 1: I think to sort of come full circle on this,
Speaker 1: and we have for anyone that hasn't heard it, we
Speaker 1: did do the episode about ending friendships. We've talked about
Speaker 1: trying to navigate the friendships and maintain the friendships when
Speaker 1: you go in different paths. But how do you know
Speaker 1: when it's time to say, maybe this one has run
Speaker 1: its course, or maybe this isn't going to be one
Speaker 1: of those lifelong friendships and maybe we are just too different.
Speaker 1: How do you go about figuring out when something's not
Speaker 1: serving you anymore to the point of maybe it's time
Speaker 1: to walk away?
Speaker 2: For me, Yeah, a good question. I mean, I'm obviously
Speaker 2: I'm a psychologist, so I advocate always, always for inner reflection, introspection,
Speaker 2: looking inside yourself to find out what's going on. So
Speaker 2: discussing those feelings if I have I'm a psychologist who
Speaker 2: has a psychologist, So I'd say, if you're really grappling
Speaker 2: with you know, a seven year friendship or a twenty
Speaker 2: year friendship, and you're considering do I want to have
Speaker 2: a breakup with a friend? Yeah, you know, get the book,
Speaker 2: have a read through it, but maybe it's time to
Speaker 2: talk to the GP, get a mental health care plan
Speaker 2: and see a psychologist and have a few sessions where
Speaker 2: you can really do yourself the credit and the justice
Speaker 2: of talking this through with somebody in a dedicated space.
Speaker 2: I can't under emphasize how helpful those avenues are at
Speaker 2: the end of the day. A really quick and easy
Speaker 2: signpost is how do you feel? What is your gut
Speaker 2: instinct telling you? And we get really good in modern
Speaker 2: society to push our gut instinct down. You know, the
Speaker 2: screams and the shouts of anxiety and stress and sadness
Speaker 2: are so loud, and the pressure that we feel to
Speaker 2: maintain something or do something or just say yes, commit more,
Speaker 2: do more, give more, be more, is huge, and we
Speaker 2: push down that tiny little whisper of your gut instinct
Speaker 2: that tells you what's right for you, what's actually working
Speaker 2: for you, and what's hurting you. It's a tiny little
Speaker 2: whisper deep down. So you know, if you're walking away
Speaker 2: from a relationship or an interaction with friends or anyone
Speaker 2: and you're feeling crummy and crappy and drained and worse
Speaker 2: than before you entered the interaction, that's a pretty good
Speaker 2: sign post that something's not working for you in that relationship.
Speaker 2: And if you've already exhausted all your avenues of talking, expectations, processing, jealousy,
Speaker 2: all of those things, that might be an indication that
Speaker 2: the friendship has come to a place where your orbits
Speaker 2: have gotten so far apart. Maybe they'll come together again
Speaker 2: one day, maybe they won't. But it's okay for you
Speaker 2: to adjust your effort levels in a really specful manner
Speaker 2: where you're just not putting in as much time or
Speaker 2: energy because you simply don't have it anymore. Doctor Hannah,
Speaker 2: It is always an absolute joy having you on the podcast.
Speaker 2: We appreciate you taking the time so much, but just
Speaker 2: genuinely the way you speak about friendships, putting things that
Speaker 2: all of us feel, all of us navigate, all of
Speaker 2: us have to deal with in our day to day lives.
Speaker 2: So putting it in a way one that's very sciency
Speaker 2: but also very palatable and just makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2: Is so it's so refreshing to have somebody break that
Speaker 2: down for us. And we love speaking with you the
Speaker 2: first time. I think I've loved this one even more.
Speaker 2: But thank you so much for coming back and being
Speaker 2: part of the podcast. Thank you for having me guys,
Speaker 2: And if I can quickly tack on, I just wanted
Speaker 2: to say thank you so much for as if I
Speaker 2: can be like a community representative, thank you for everything
Speaker 2: you guys do. I've been watching your journey for a
Speaker 2: while now, and you guys bust your us all the community,
Speaker 2: the amount of stuff you have done. And you know,
Speaker 2: last year I saw like all the different podcasts you
Speaker 2: were doing, and all of that emotional load that must
Speaker 2: have gone into helping all those people talking to all
Speaker 2: those people. You guys haven't had an easy run like
Speaker 2: I sometimes imagine I sit and imagine go I wonder
Speaker 2: how that affected them when that happened, or when that
Speaker 2: person said that thing, or when somebody heat this shit
Speaker 2: on them about something so infuriatingly stupid. I'm like, you
Speaker 2: guys are just the most incredible community members who have
Speaker 2: done so much for literally thousands and thousands of people.
Speaker 2: I listened to your episodes and I'm like, feel like
Speaker 2: these guys are like sisters, you know, And there's so
Speaker 2: many women out there who would be like, you know,
Speaker 2: you don't know me, but I know you, and you've
Speaker 2: helped me so much. You didn't have to do. I
Speaker 2: think this is being a creative, Like I never put
Speaker 2: anything out into the community before, and I've put a
Speaker 2: book out now and you don't realize you don't have
Speaker 2: to do this, And I just wanted to say thank
Speaker 2: you for doing that. It's hana, It has actually touched
Speaker 2: a We're so incredibly lucky. Like the community has created itself,
Speaker 2: Like the content created the content, and the community has
Speaker 2: created itself. And that's the being the most powerful thing
Speaker 2: about Lafe fun Cut is we've been having the conversations,
Speaker 2: but the people who have, like all of you guys
Speaker 2: who listen, all of you guys who in the Facebook group,
Speaker 2: every single one of you who extend that conversation and
Speaker 2: have it in your own homes with your own friends
Speaker 2: or point more is towards episodes that you think might
Speaker 2: help someone. That's where this community has grown from, and
Speaker 2: that is incredible. But speaking of your book, How to
Speaker 2: Break Up with Friends, if anybody wants to learn more
Speaker 2: about how to navigate friendships, how to maybe remove yourself
Speaker 2: from a toxic friendship, which we all know can be
Speaker 2: incredibly hard, we'll put the links to doctor Hannah's book
Speaker 2: and where you can find her on Instagram in the
Speaker 2: show notes.
Speaker 1: Thanks Hannah, You're an absolute legend.
Speaker 2: Stopad, You're the best. Thanks guys.
Speaker 1: You guys know we never finish an episode without our
Speaker 1: suck and our sweet, our highlight and our lowlight, the
Speaker 1: best and the worst of our week. If you knew
Speaker 1: sometimes these are huge things.
Speaker 2: If you are Hibbini.
Speaker 1: For a long time, you know that sometimes these are
Speaker 1: very in significant things. Either way, Where I have a
Speaker 1: two minute complaint and a two minute little grateful moment,
Speaker 1: do you.
Speaker 2: Know you were just talking like this at the start.
Speaker 2: We're doing our suck and sweet and I quite liked it.
Speaker 1: I think my voice is still a bit changing for breathy,
Speaker 1: it's a breath a pandemic, breathy.
Speaker 2: Finish it on a sex high.
Speaker 1: That's the only sex wee getting is my breathiness.
Speaker 2: Oh, we can talk about your dating life on Thursday's
Speaker 2: episode if you like. I feel like I have a
Speaker 2: few questions. Yeah, yeah, okay, I hang around for that. Guys,
Speaker 2: it's coming. Take it off. What you suck? Okay, my
Speaker 2: suck for the week is that? My suck for the
Speaker 2: week happened? Just then? I got a phone call from
Speaker 2: daycare about fifteen minutes ago saying that Marley has a
Speaker 2: temperature and she needs to be picked up.
Speaker 1: Yes, we have to cut the record.
Speaker 2: Sure everyone knows that. When you see your daycare's number
Speaker 2: flashing on your phone, you're like, oh, what has happened?
Speaker 1: Something's gone down.
Speaker 2: So yeah, but the reason why she has a fever
Speaker 2: today is because yesterday we had a birthday party for her.
Speaker 2: So she had a great day. We had a three
Speaker 2: year old birthday party. There was so much food, There
Speaker 2: was so much rose.
Speaker 1: Food was so great. The catering on the three odds birthday.
Speaker 1: I mean, like we're talking things like hot dogs and burgers,
Speaker 1: but they were like fancy, like French buns.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I had like four burgers only the best
Speaker 2: for Mally May, except four burgers were like the size
Speaker 2: of one burger because they were slighters. They were slighters. Yeah, yes,
Speaker 2: it was so. Molly's birthday was a week ago, and
Speaker 2: like I told you all, I lied to her and
Speaker 2: now she knows, well, I mean, she doesn't know that
Speaker 2: her birthday was lied about. But she got party bags.
Speaker 2: We had pinadas, we had all the things. It was very,
Speaker 2: very lovely, and it's so nice, Like I mean, I
Speaker 2: feel like a lot of our friends are from all
Speaker 2: different little walks of life, Like we've got friends from work,
Speaker 2: we've got friends from daycare, we've got friends from the park,
Speaker 2: we've got work. Like it was weird, so she just
Speaker 2: put me in the word friend category for anyone wondering
Speaker 2: what happened. I said work twice, and then I pointed
Speaker 2: at you again. I was like, we've got friends and work,
Speaker 2: and then I work and I work. Clearly I need
Speaker 2: some more friends after that episode. No, but it's nice
Speaker 2: to have everyone come together and for everyone to be
Speaker 2: able to meet each other before we have the wedding
Speaker 2: as well, because sometimes it's weird when you've got to
Speaker 2: do small talk and meet all these different people, and
Speaker 2: it just was just the most beautiful day. It was
Speaker 2: a great day, except that Mali was in a feral
Speaker 2: mood from the first moment that we left. And usually
Speaker 2: when you do birthday parties or things like that, for
Speaker 2: a three year old birthday party, you just spend all
Speaker 2: your time chasing children around. But it actually felt like
Speaker 2: I got to have at least one or two semi
Speaker 2: decent conversations in there.
Speaker 1: I must admit I had a little bit of jealousy
Speaker 1: fomo when I wasn't allowed to do the pinana when.
Speaker 2: All the kids were lining up.
Speaker 1: These are all two and three year olds, sort of
Speaker 1: thing like.
Speaker 2: A one year old in there.
Speaker 1: I was like, I wonder if any of the adults
Speaker 1: get to have ago. It's been a while since I've pinana.
Speaker 1: But no, it was a really lovely day.
Speaker 2: What is your sweet? No? What is your suck?
Speaker 1: Brittany three years running, Laurie, Still my suck would be
Speaker 1: yesterday I just had. I've only just gone back out
Speaker 1: into the world last couple of days, so like, I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm finding my feet again. I feel like
Speaker 1: I'm Bambi. I spilt three coffees. I got three coffees. Yesterday,
Speaker 1: I sput three coffees, every single coffee, one all down
Speaker 1: my clothes, one somehow on my face, one through my car,
Speaker 1: and then one on the table in we're doing an interview,
Speaker 1: all over my table, all over the carpet.
Speaker 2: I think you might need to go to the doctors
Speaker 2: about that.
Speaker 1: I was like, what is happening?
Speaker 2: But then I couldn't figure it out.
Speaker 1: A few people wrote to me, They're like, you literally
Speaker 1: have COVID brain fog. Like it's a thing apparently for
Speaker 1: sometimes a week, sometimes two weeks, sometimes three weeks. Some
Speaker 1: people have it long COVID. But it's like you actually,
Speaker 1: maybe it's what the same the equivalent of baby brain.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but apparently it's a bit of a
Speaker 1: thing where your brain still doesn't function. So that's I'm
Speaker 1: gonna use this for a while. Every time I make mistakes.
Speaker 2: It was excuse before COVID then nothing.
Speaker 1: But I will use this for as long as I
Speaker 1: hold on to it.
Speaker 2: And what was your highlight for the week. I'm gonna
Speaker 2: rattle off a few. I'm gonna go rogue. It's a
Speaker 2: great week to be alive.
Speaker 1: We just did a really cool photo shoot this morning.
Speaker 1: Laura and I we never actually do anything together, but
Speaker 1: we went and we had some fun. We've got some
Speaker 1: things to announce in the coming week, so that that
Speaker 1: was really fun.
Speaker 2: We have something very exciting to announce on Friday, and
Speaker 2: we're announcing that with.
Speaker 1: The photo we took at the photo shoot today. That
Speaker 1: is what.
Speaker 2: We have been teasing this for a little while, but
Speaker 2: it's coming on Friday and we're so excited. We can't
Speaker 2: wait to share it with you.
Speaker 1: It'll be on our instagrams on Friday, so make sure
Speaker 1: you keep your eyes out and.
Speaker 2: We yeah, we just can't wait. It's just a long
Speaker 2: time coming, but we just can'not wait to.
Speaker 1: Finally share it with you. So that's that's definitely a sweet.
Speaker 1: Another sweet is Laura and I am both going on
Speaker 1: holiday this coming Friday. So we've got one more episode
Speaker 1: coming out next week and then we're gonna have a
Speaker 1: few sneaky weeks off. We're both going over to Bali.
Speaker 1: We're gonna have a very like we're not coming together,
Speaker 1: like we're going to Bali, but we are like happy to.
Speaker 2: Break We're going to the same country, but we're just
Speaker 2: like not seeing each other. Laura's like, no, I don't
Speaker 2: want to see you. I'm like, I have Mammy on
Speaker 2: my holiday. No, I work friend, work friends day away.
Speaker 1: We're not working, No, but we're both independently going to Bali.
Speaker 1: But that's really exciting. And then my third week, So
Speaker 1: I've got three this week.
Speaker 2: Okay, that is one hundred percent cheating. You can say
Speaker 2: one for next week.
Speaker 1: That's too late, Oh I could, But I've got the
Speaker 1: Thall premiere tonight. So Thall's Australian premiere. So I'm really
Speaker 1: excited to, yeah, get dressed up and go out again
Speaker 1: and try and feel like semi normal again.
Speaker 2: Is this when you're gonna go and try and rub
Speaker 2: yourself on Liam Hemsworth? Is that what's gonna happen?
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if he's there, I'm like, how supportive are
Speaker 1: the family of each other really be? There? Will he
Speaker 1: be rubbable against approach, against my genitals, against my genitalia?
Speaker 2: Anyway? Guys, that is it from ours. We hope that
Speaker 2: you enjoyed the episode. We know it was a really
Speaker 2: long one and a biggie for you today, but there
Speaker 2: were so many things that we really wanted to cover
Speaker 2: and we love making it so we love talking, so
Speaker 2: here we are. If you made it all the way
Speaker 2: to the end.
Speaker 1: Please keep your ask gun cuts coming into life un
Speaker 1: Cut podcast Instagram.
Speaker 2: Also you're accidentally unfiltered confessionals.
Speaker 1: Any story that you think we would want to know
Speaker 1: or you think that's funny, and also your ask gun
Speaker 1: Cut aftermaths. If we have ever done an ask gun
Speaker 1: cut on you or a friend or you know, and
Speaker 1: there is something that we can follow up, we really
Speaker 1: want to know about it. So if you can send
Speaker 1: those in put ask gun cut follow up or aftermath
Speaker 1: or whatever you want, and then we can bring you some
Speaker 1: more of those episodes.
Speaker 2: And don't forget to tell your mum, tell your dad,
Speaker 2: tell your dog, tell your friends. And Chad laugh because
Speaker 2: oh my god, you do well. You just throw a
Speaker 2: spanner in the works.