1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS. Oh, 2 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: now it makes sense. Good morning, and welcome to the 3 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: Daily OS. It's Wednesday, the twentieth of August. I'm Billy FitzSimons. 4 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 2: I'm Emma Gillespie, yours. 5 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 1: President Donald Trump has met with both Russian leaders Vladimir 6 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: Putin and Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelenski in his latest attempt 7 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 1: to reach a peace deal in Ukraine. The meetings come 8 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: after three and a half years of war with no 9 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,599 Speaker 1: major breakthrough. Trump discussed ending the conflict with both leaders separately, 10 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: though no concrete deal was reached. Today we are breaking 11 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: down what happened in these high stakes diplomatic meetings and 12 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: what comes next in efforts to end the war in Ukraine. 13 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 2: We'll get into all of that in today's deep dive. 14 00:00:54,480 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 2: But first a quick message from our sponsor, Billy. As 15 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 2: you said in your intro, this conflict has now been 16 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 2: running for three and a half years. It feels like 17 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 2: things have really escalated though since Donald Trump was reelected 18 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 2: he has pushed a lot. He has pushed really heavily 19 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 2: to broker a ceasefire deal in Ukraine. But let's start 20 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 2: with the context. Let's take it back to twenty twenty two. 21 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 2: What do we need to know? 22 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it was in feb twenty twenty two when 23 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: Russia invaded Ukraine, and so, like you said, it's been 24 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: nearly three and a half years, nearly four years since 25 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 1: this conflict began. Now in terms of the impact this 26 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: has had. In terms of the civilian impact, neither country 27 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: actually publishes official death tolls, but the United Nations has 28 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: estimated that at least thirteen eight hundred civilians have been 29 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: killed in Ukraine since the war broke out. We also 30 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: know that more than five point six million people have 31 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: fled Ukraine since Russia first invaded. That's also according to 32 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: UN data. 33 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 2: I didn't realize that figure was so high, five point 34 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:05,639 Speaker 2: six million. 35 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I remember when it first happened, the images 36 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 1: and the videos of you know, the roads being blocked 37 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: out with cars trying to flee the country. It was 38 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: quite stark imagery. Now, the death toll of troops is 39 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: much larger. The latest estimates from during this year is 40 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:27,519 Speaker 1: that nearly one million Russian troops have been killed or wounded, 41 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: and about four hundred thousand Ukrainian troops have also been 42 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: killed or injured. That is a huge impact on the troops. Yeah, 43 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: and those estimates are from the Center for Strategic and 44 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: International Studies in Washington. Again, those are just estimates because 45 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: we don't know the official toll. 46 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 2: Right, Can you remind us why Russia invaded Ukraine in 47 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 2: the first place. I'm sure it is an extremely complicated answer, 48 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 2: but how would you explain it? 49 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: Yeah? I think it's also important context because it kind 50 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: of explains why the US is now involved in the talks. So, 51 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: like you said, it's obviously complicated. There is a lot 52 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: of history there. Ukraine is one of several countries in 53 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: Eastern Europe that was part of the Soviet Union before 54 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: it collapsed in the nineteen nineties, So I think that 55 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 1: just gives you some context also because since then there 56 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: have been territorial disputes between Russia and Ukraine. Now, when 57 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: Putin declared what he called Russia's Special Military Operation, that's 58 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: what he called it in twenty twenty two in Ukraine, 59 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: he spoke a lot about guaranteeing Russia's security. So this 60 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: is basically about Russia saying that they feel like they 61 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: are under threat from specifically Western forces, and a big 62 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: part of this all centers around Russia's concerns about the 63 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: growing power of NATOP, which stands for the North Atlantic 64 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: Treaty Organization. 65 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 2: We hear a lot about NATO, especially in the context 66 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 2: of this conflict. Yes, what is it though. 67 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: Yes, good question, a fundamental question. So NATO is a 68 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: military alliance of thirty two European and Northern American countries. 69 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,679 Speaker 1: Now that figure of thirty two has grown in recent decades, 70 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: so it wasn't always that large, and a key part 71 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: of it is that they're founding treaty states. An attack 72 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:29,359 Speaker 1: against one ally is considered as an attack against all allies, 73 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: and that is probably the most important feature of the 74 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: NATO alliance because it binds members to go to war 75 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 1: on each other's behalf. So essentially, if there is an 76 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,919 Speaker 1: attack on one NATO country, then that alliance sees it 77 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 1: as an attack on all NATO countries and will go 78 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: in to defend for that country that has been under 79 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: ATTACKEP And like I said, it has expanded. That number 80 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: of thirty two allies has expanded since it first began, 81 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: and now in includes several countries in Eastern Europe which 82 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: are closer geographically to Russia and Russia is of course 83 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:09,559 Speaker 1: not part of NATO. 84 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. We have seen some European countries, even the likes 85 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 2: of Switzerland joining NATO. Switzerland are famously kind of a 86 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 2: political natural zone, Yeah, shoring up their defenses and security 87 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 2: pacts because of the threat of Russia given its ongoing 88 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 2: conflict in Ukraine. 89 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 1: Exactly. And so to bring this back to Ukraine, Ukraine 90 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: does want to be part of NATO, but is not. 91 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 1: And Russia sees Ukraine becoming part of NATO as a 92 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,039 Speaker 1: threat because it would mean that most of its neighboring 93 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: countries are all part of this military alliance. So one 94 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: of Putin's key demands when it comes to this peace 95 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: steal that we're talking about, is a guarantee that Ukraine 96 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 1: never joins NATO. 97 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 2: Okay, got it. And so NATO just recap it's this 98 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 2: military alliance between European countries and the US. Obviously, the 99 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 2: US is one of the biggest forces in NATO. Is 100 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 2: that why it's so involved in these peace talks? 101 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And it was also something that US President 102 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 1: Donald Trump campaigned on before the election last year. He 103 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: famously said that he would be able to broker a 104 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 1: peace deal within twenty four hours of becoming president. Now, 105 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 1: obviously that hasn't happened, but Trump has now met with 106 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: both Putin and Zelensky as he continues his attempt at 107 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: trying to reach a peace deal. Yeah. 108 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 2: I think it's really important to highlight how he campaigned 109 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 2: on this issue, because Joe Biden, as the former president 110 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 2: of the US, certainly showed really strong support for Ukraine. 111 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 2: He had regular meetings with Zelenski, he was promoting regular 112 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 2: funding to support Ukraine, but he didn't seem to have 113 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 2: this kind of hardline stand on intervening to force an 114 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 2: end to this war. But Trump really campaigned for election 115 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 2: on this idea that he is a master negotiator, that 116 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 2: he can bring global powers to the table to resolve 117 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 2: these kinds of conflicts, not just in Ukraine but all 118 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 2: over the world. Yeah, so the Putin Trump meeting came first. Yes, 119 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 2: what do we need to know about that one? 120 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, so this was on Saturday morning, Australia time. We 121 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: woke up to it on Saturday, And yeah, it was 122 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: the pair's first meeting since Trump had returned to the 123 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: White House. So Putin and Trump's first meeting since Donald 124 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: Trump had become president. For the second time. In terms 125 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: of what came out of it, essentially not a lot. 126 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: There was no agreement to end the war in Ukraine. 127 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: After the meeting, Trump told report is we didn't get there, 128 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: but we have a very good chance of getting there. 129 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 2: And just to clarify, there was no representatives from uk 130 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 2: in that meeting. No. 131 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: But then what Trump said is that he was meeting 132 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: with Zelenski in the coming days, which we will get 133 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: to because that has now happened. He did say that 134 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: there were some agreements from that meeting with Putin, but 135 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: they didn't specify exactly what those agreements were. He's a 136 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: little bit more of that press conference which was held 137 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: alongside Putin. There were many many points that we agreed 138 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: on most of them, I would say, a couple of 139 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: big ones that we haven't quite got there, but we've 140 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: made some headway. So there's no deal until there's a deal. 141 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 2: Now. 142 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: After those statements were read out, they actually didn't answer 143 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: any questions from journalists that were at that press conference. 144 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: That is quite unusual for Trump when he is meeting 145 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: with other world leaders. Usually they have done those press 146 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: conferences in the Oval Office. But this was clearly very different. 147 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,080 Speaker 1: And it was a lot more orchestrated, I would say, 148 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 1: I thought this line explained the result of the meeting well. 149 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: From the New York Times, they reported it would be 150 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: hard to imagine an event that could have gone better 151 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 1: from the point of view of the Russian leader, who 152 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: made no public commitment to stop his assault on Ukraine 153 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: and yet was treated as a valued friend. 154 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 2: Very interesting, And I suppose That's been the criticism of 155 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 2: a lot of Donald Trump's handling of this conflict, is 156 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 2: that he's treating perhaps Putin and Zelensky as equals in 157 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 2: this conversation, whereas the broader global community view is that 158 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 2: Russia has invaded Ukraine, Ukraine needs the world's support, and 159 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 2: we shouldn't be pandering to Putin. 160 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's important to point out that 161 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: there has been criticism of this meeting. One Democrat politician, 162 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: Senator Chris Murphy said the photo op in and of 163 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: itself essentially legitimizes war crimes, telegraphs to evil men around 164 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: the world that they can get away with murdering civilians 165 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: and still get a photo op with the President of 166 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: the United States. 167 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:04,199 Speaker 2: Wow. 168 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: So that is the perspective of a politician obviously on 169 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: the opposing side of politics as Trump, but yet important 170 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:13,959 Speaker 1: to point out that there has been criticism. 171 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 2: So some very strong language. That meeting in Alaska between 172 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 2: Trump and Putin was Saturday morning for us here in Australia, 173 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 2: and then on Tuesday morning we woke up to the 174 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 2: meeting of Ukrainian President Voladimir Zelensky and Trump having wrapped up. 175 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 2: It's not the first time that they've met in recent months, though, 176 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 2: is that there is a particular viral moment that stands out. 177 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, so Trump hosted Zelenski literally in his first month 178 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:46,079 Speaker 1: of being in office. That was earlier this year in 179 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: feb And yeah, it was quite a frosty meeting. Just 180 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: to remind us of exactly what happened, here's a snippet 181 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: of an exchange between Vice President JD. Vance Trump and 182 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 1: Zelenski back in feb this year. 183 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 2: Have you said thank you once a lot of times? No, 184 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 2: you said you went to Pennsylvania and campaigned for the 185 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 2: opposition in October. 186 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 1: Offer some words of appreciation for the United States of 187 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: America and the president who's trying to save your country. 188 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:22,559 Speaker 2: Plas you're saying that, if you will speak very loudly 189 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 2: about the war. 190 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: You're not speaking loudly. You're not speaking loudly. Your country 191 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,319 Speaker 1: is in big trouble. No, No, you've done a lot 192 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: of talking. Your country is in big trouble. I know 193 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: you're not winning. You're not winning this, okay. 194 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 2: So things were frosty, to say the least, tensions were high. 195 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 2: It didn't really seem like in that moment, just a 196 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 2: few months later we'd be talking about another Zelenski Trump 197 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 2: meeting in the Oval Office. So how did the latest 198 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 2: one go? 199 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: This one had a very different dynamic. There were none 200 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: of those really tense exchanges. I think the tone of 201 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: it was quite civil, to be honest. Probably the biggest 202 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: thing that came from the meeting was the news that 203 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: there could now be a meeting between Putin and Zelenski 204 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: as well as Trump. So Trump said via social media 205 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: after at the conclusion of the meetings, I called President 206 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 1: Putin and began the arrangements for meeting at a location 207 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: to be determined between President Putin and President Zelenski. 208 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 2: So a meeting of Putin and Zelenski feels like a 209 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 2: pretty big deal. What will be the key points of 210 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 2: those negotiations? How would this even work. 211 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't want to simplify this too much, but 212 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: you know, for the purposes of a ten minute podcast, 213 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: we often have to a lot of this is about territory. 214 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,719 Speaker 1: It all comes down to territory and the key questions 215 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:52,559 Speaker 1: of what is Russian territory and what is Ukrainian territory. 216 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: And one of the key questions that needs to be 217 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: answered is would Ukraine be willing to give up some 218 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: territory in the pursuit of peace or will they stand 219 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: their ground and try to come to a peace agreement 220 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: another way? But again another question is is that even possible? 221 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, And this is a sticking point really for Zelensky 222 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 2: that we've heard over and over over the last three 223 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 2: and a half years or so, is that Ukraine is 224 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 2: not going to see its territory to Russia exact and 225 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,679 Speaker 2: Trump kind of I suppose nudging Zelensky to be a 226 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 2: bit more compromising. 227 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think Trump is saying that both of you 228 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: are going to need to make compromises here. Another key 229 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,719 Speaker 1: part of this is NATO. So to bring it back 230 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: to what we were talking about before, Yeah, Putin wants 231 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: a guarantee that Ukraine will not join NATO, And I 232 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: think it's also important to point out that before Trump's 233 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: meeting with Zelenski, Trump posted two social media saying no 234 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: going into NATO by Ukraine. So I shared the context 235 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 1: of that before. But Zolenski has wanted help from NATO 236 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: troops in Ukraine, which has responded to in a very 237 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: strong way. Even on Monday, Russia's Foreign ministry said, we 238 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 1: reaffirm a repeatedly stated position of categorical rejection of any 239 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: scenarios involving the presence of a military contingent from NATO 240 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: countries in Ukraine. 241 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 2: Where is NATO at in terms of Ukrainian membership? I 242 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 2: know a few years ago the conversation was about let's 243 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 2: get this conflict resolved and then we can talk about 244 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 2: Ukraine joining. Has that changed? 245 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: Well, NATO's position, I think is a long term one. 246 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: So there's an answer for right now, and then there's 247 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: a long term answer. Like I just said, Trump posted 248 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: to social media literally this week, no going into NATO 249 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: by Ukraine. So I think we can pretty safely say 250 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: that there is no prospect of Ukraine joining NATO right now. 251 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 1: But if I go onto NATO's website, there is a 252 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: question that says, will you Ukraine join NATO, and their 253 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: answer to that is yes, and they go into this 254 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight agreement that I won't get into 255 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: the details of, but basically, in two thousand and eight 256 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: there was an agreement that Ukraine would become part of NATO, 257 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: and that still stands today as a long term goal. 258 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 2: Billy, how likely is a face to face meeting between 259 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 2: Putin and Zelenski, Well, the. 260 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: Leaders haven't actually spoken in person since before Russia invaded Ukraine. 261 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: Their last formal meeting was in twenty nineteen, when Zelenski 262 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: and Putin met in Paris, and the aim of those 263 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: talks was to try and de escalate tensions between Ukrainian 264 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: forces and pro Russian separatists in Ukraine. Now, that was 265 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: the beginning of a series of negotiations between officials from 266 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: the two countries, but evidently they broke down when Russia 267 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: launched its invasion in twenty twenty two. So we really 268 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: don't have much to go by in terms of the 269 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: history of their relationship and how negotiations between them go, 270 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: except for clearly very badly given the situation that we 271 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: are in. If they do end up getting together in 272 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: person under Trump's plan, it will be a very historic 273 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: moment regardless of the outcome. 274 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, fascinating and of course we will keep an eye 275 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 2: on that and bring you all the latest updates over 276 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 2: on the Daily Os Instagram feed as we learn more 277 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 2: about this developing story. Billy, thank you so much for 278 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 2: explaining it to us. Thank you, and thank you for 279 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 2: listening to today's episode. We will be back later on 280 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 2: this afternoon with your evening news headlines, but until then, 281 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 2: have a great day. 282 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Aarunda 283 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: Bungelung Caalcultin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily Os acknowledges 284 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 285 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: Gatighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 286 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 287 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.