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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: wants answers.

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Speaker 1: Now, So let's just be really clear. The science is settled.

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Speaker 1: There's a couple of old schools stick in the MUDs

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Speaker 1: in the scientific community who still think that maybe we

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Speaker 1: can get away with a tap on the bum, but

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Speaker 1: when it comes to science and empiricism, there is no

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Speaker 1: argument to be made.

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Speaker 2: And now here's the stars of our show.

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Speaker 1: My mum and dad. Oh boy, it feels really weird

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Speaker 1: to be on the podcast this morning talking about being

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Speaker 1: on the TV last night.

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Speaker 3: You're violating someone else and you're saying that this is

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Speaker 3: a response, this is a solution.

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Speaker 1: It's maybe the last tool, but it's a tool, that's

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Speaker 1: what you're saying. It doesn't sit well with me.

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Speaker 4: We would never smack our child.

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Speaker 1: We feel very strongly about this. She's a little child,

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Speaker 1: we're an adult. It is a form of abuse oday.

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Speaker 1: This is justin Colsonla'm here with Kylie, my wife and

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Speaker 1: mum to our six daughters. Kylie the first episode of

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Speaker 1: Parental Guidance. What did you think You've never seen me

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Speaker 1: on the telly before like that?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think that the kids were a little bit

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Speaker 2: shocked at how much makeup Dad was wearing.

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Speaker 1: I can't believe you brought that up. Thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: It's different. Yeah, and my hair like for any of

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Speaker 1: the hair and makeup people who are listening, I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying anything negative, but just I'm not used to my

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Speaker 1: hair looking like that.

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Speaker 2: You reminded me a little bit of Luke Perry, you know,

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Speaker 2: back in that. But all of that aside, what an

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Speaker 2: experience and some really really tough topics were addressed last night.

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Speaker 1: Well, the big one and we've we've just got to

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Speaker 1: go straight into some audio from the from the show.

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Speaker 1: The big one was smacking.

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Speaker 4: We do use smacking as a form of discipline. It's

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Speaker 4: one of the tools in the toolbox.

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Speaker 3: Smack quickly communicates that is not okay. There are boundaries

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Speaker 3: that our consequences. You can't just do whatever you want.

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Speaker 4: We see a smack as one tool in a parenting

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Speaker 4: toolbox of options, and it's by no means the first

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Speaker 4: tool that comes out of that toolbox.

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Speaker 3: First of all, this is a controversial topic, okay, and

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Speaker 3: let's us acknowledge that. And in that space, it's good

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Speaker 3: to listen and to hear story so I was raised

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Speaker 3: in a household with my parents smacking and mirrorm experience

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Speaker 3: the same. Now, I do not hold any resentment or

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Speaker 3: bitterness to my parents for that, in fact, Stockholm syndrome.

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Speaker 3: I'm just saying, let me a chance to talk. So

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Speaker 3: I'm actually felt that that was a fine form of correction.

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Speaker 3: And as I have reflected upon that and my upbringing,

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Speaker 3: I thought, well, that's that was a positive tool, and

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Speaker 3: so I've used that children for us.

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Speaker 4: We don't want to you know, last out in anger

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Speaker 4: and hurt. That's not you know, that's not the purpose.

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Speaker 4: You know, we make sure that we have gone through

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Speaker 4: the other different tools and tried different ways. And if

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Speaker 4: there is a situation that you know, has that purpose

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Speaker 4: or defiance and we feel that in that particular situation

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Speaker 4: that that's the most effective tool, we ask the child

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Speaker 4: to come to us. We don't chase them around the house,

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Speaker 4: we don't try and pin them down a hold, and

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Speaker 4: we ask them to come to us and the smack

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Speaker 4: is delivered on the bottom.

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Speaker 2: This is a really, really tough conversation, and especially for

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Speaker 2: Andrew and Miriam, they were put under the spotlight in

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Speaker 2: a really difficult way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think though, that it's a conversation that we

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Speaker 1: need to have. And I'm so grateful that they were

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Speaker 1: the brave souls who put their head above the parapet

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Speaker 1: and shoot at it. I guess I mean really really hard.

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Speaker 2: But I just loved Andrew's humility at the end when

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Speaker 2: he just icknowledged that this was a game changer for him.

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Speaker 2: It had really made him think.

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Speaker 3: I've been challenged to think, how do I correct? Is

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Speaker 3: it the best way? And I suppose my experience has

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Speaker 3: still been what it has been. Okay, overall, this is

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Speaker 3: this tool has been a positive thing. But we want

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Speaker 3: to be the best parents that we can be, and

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Speaker 3: we want to love our children and.

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Speaker 1: See them grow.

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Speaker 3: And you don't want to do anything as a parent

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Speaker 3: that will give baggage to your kids. You try to love.

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Speaker 3: It's hard, it really is to try and get it right.

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Speaker 3: And so we're doing our best. And I think parents

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Speaker 3: parents want the best for their kids and they and

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Speaker 3: so this is a good conversation to have and for us,

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Speaker 3: it's it's been hard but helpful.

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Speaker 1: So Kylie, let's talk about smacking, because Andrew and Miriam

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Speaker 1: have started what I'm hoping is literally going to be

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Speaker 1: the catalyst of a news spanking or smacking debate in

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Speaker 1: this country. Not that we need to be having a debate,

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Speaker 1: like the debate should be over the science is settled.

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Speaker 1: But I think that maybe this can be the catalyst

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Speaker 1: for sparking a change that can mean a new generation

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Speaker 1: of kids grows up with a new expectation of how

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Speaker 1: their parents will not be man handling them.

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Speaker 2: I think the reality is we do the best we

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Speaker 2: can until we know better. Right, Yeah, and we've got

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Speaker 2: a conversation has allowed Andrew and Miriam to recognize that

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Speaker 2: there's a better way.

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Speaker 1: So I actually have spoken with Andrew just recently and

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Speaker 1: he still reflects on that conversation regularly, and he has

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Speaker 1: acknowledged that it has changed his parenting. We are hoping

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Speaker 1: to have him on the podcast in a couple of

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Speaker 1: weeks time, though once the show's over. So I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to reveal too much. But lovely, lovely guy, fabulous

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Speaker 1: in just so engaged with his kids. Let's have the

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Speaker 1: smacking conversation. Can we do that? Okay? All right? So

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Speaker 1: the first me, I see what you did there? That

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Speaker 1: wasn't funny, that was terrible. So the first thing that

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Speaker 1: I want to highlight is the following The Royal Australasian

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Speaker 1: College of Physicians have actually proposed an amendment to make

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Speaker 1: it a criminal offense for parents to hit their children.

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Speaker 1: So what's really going on here is that when we

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Speaker 1: look at the science, the science is settled. There's a

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Speaker 1: couple of old school stick in the MUDs in the

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Speaker 1: scientific community who still think that maybe we can get

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Speaker 1: away with a tap on the bum, But when it

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Speaker 1: comes to science and empiricism, there is no argument to

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Speaker 1: be made. There's literally no debate. The data shows clearly

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Speaker 1: smacking is ineffective.

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Speaker 2: Well, I agree with all of that. I actually think

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Speaker 2: that making it illegal or making it against the law

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Speaker 2: is actually not helpful for parents. There is so much

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Speaker 2: pressure on parents already to make good choices and to

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Speaker 2: do the right thing, and to have that sitting over

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Speaker 2: their head. I just think it is not helpful.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's have a look at the data on that, though,

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Speaker 1: because there's a really important point to be made around that,

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Speaker 1: and that is that the people who are going to

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Speaker 1: be most in trouble for this are the people who

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Speaker 1: can least afford and who are least likely to know

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Speaker 1: what to do. And this is going to sound politically

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Speaker 1: completely incorrect, but I'm just reporting on data. So the

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Speaker 1: data actually shows us who's doing the smacking. Oh, by

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Speaker 1: the way, in Australia, around about fifty percent of parents.

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Speaker 2: So let's spend the money to help them.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly right, totally totally. But the thing is they're

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Speaker 1: not going to spend the money on the education unless

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Speaker 1: there's a legislative reason to do it. So we've got

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Speaker 1: to bring the legislation in and say we've got to

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Speaker 1: make smacking illegal. But then instead of enforcing it with

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Speaker 1: fines and with jail and all those horrible big.

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Speaker 2: Spirit it won't be that they'll just take their children away.

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Speaker 1: And instead of enforcing it with docs stepping in and

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Speaker 1: saying you can't have your children, you're unfit to be

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Speaker 1: a parent, what they need to do is step in

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Speaker 1: with high quality education, good quality stuff. So here's here's

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Speaker 1: what we've got data on who's doing the smacking. The

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Speaker 1: research tells us that low income parents are significantly more

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Speaker 1: likely to smack their kids than high income parents.

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Speaker 2: Now this is intergenerational as well, though we're dealing with

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Speaker 2: parents who as children were smacked. We're smack.

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Speaker 1: That's right, So people who were smacked off and continue that,

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Speaker 1: but there's some who break the cycle. What we also

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Speaker 1: know though, is, and I'm not picking on people with

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Speaker 1: love or incomes. I mean, We've been there for most

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Speaker 1: of our lives while I've been studying and trying to

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Speaker 1: get happy families going and that sort of thing. What

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Speaker 1: it suggests though, is, I mean, I reckon it could

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Speaker 1: be related to a lack of knowledge, or it could

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Speaker 1: be related to stress from financial pressure, It could be

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Speaker 1: low levels of support. The data also shows that race

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Speaker 1: and nationality, and lower levels of education and higher levels

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Speaker 1: of religiosity are also predictive of who's going to smack.

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Speaker 1: Although it gets really complicated, and the data shows the complication,

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Speaker 1: but essentially a politically indelicate reality is that the biggest

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Speaker 1: predictors of who's going to smack of those who have

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Speaker 1: got low income, low education, high religiosity, especially in countries

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Speaker 1: where religious participation is low, or being from minority cultures

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Speaker 1: or races or nationalities. Now, having said that, I know

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Speaker 1: plenty of very well healed, well educated, non religious Anglo

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Speaker 1: Australians who are also giving their kid a whack on

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Speaker 1: the backside if they don't measure up. So there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of people that feel like smacking is okay, but

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Speaker 1: the data says smacking's harmful and it doesn't point into

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Speaker 1: any positive outcomes. And I'm not talking child abuse. I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about what I was on a radio interview last

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Speaker 1: week and a radio announcer said, but surely a swat

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Speaker 1: on the bums, Okay, I'm talking about the data on

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Speaker 1: the swat on the bum the it's just a tap.

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Speaker 1: The data shows that the more we do it, the

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Speaker 1: more likely there are negative outcomes. Obviously, if you do

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Speaker 1: it once or twice because you've had a lousy day.

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Speaker 1: I'm never going to endorse or encourage that. But sometimes

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Speaker 1: that stuff happens in real life, and we're human, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that's probably not going to predict any tremendously bad

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Speaker 1: outcomes for our kids. There's many more things that we

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Speaker 1: need to be worried about, but with very few exceptions,

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Speaker 1: there's no researcher who's out there there's going to encourage

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Speaker 1: any kind of physical hitting. It's just not right. The

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Speaker 1: Royal Australasian College of Physicians has stated in their official

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Speaker 1: position paper that quote it believes that physical punishment is

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Speaker 1: an outdated practice, and the American Psychological Association has thrown

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Speaker 1: its weight behind the stop smacking movement as well. We

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Speaker 1: just we've got to do something about it.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's take a break and after we come back,

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Speaker 2: let's give people some hope, some solutions. How can we

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Speaker 2: work through this and change what we're doing.

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Speaker 1: It's their Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 5: Our Screens Creating Tension at Home, Tweens, teens and Screens

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Speaker 5: is a webinar to guide families to healthy, safe superscreen solutions.

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Speaker 5: Bye today at happy families dot com, dot au slash shop.

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Speaker 2: It's a Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 2: poor parent who just wants answers now, And today we

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Speaker 2: are tackling the big one, smacking.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. After Andrew Miriam's very very challenging episode one of

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Speaker 1: Parental Guidance on Channel nine last night.

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Speaker 4: We see a smack as one tool in a parenting toolbox.

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Speaker 1: Wow, we need to talk about it. Hey, you know what, though,

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Speaker 1: before we talk about what we should do instead, I

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Speaker 1: think we just need to I've talked about the evidence,

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Speaker 1: but I want to make an appeal to logic around

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Speaker 1: this as well. So let me hear you with a scenario,

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Speaker 1: if you can again forgive the hit pun. When a

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Speaker 1: big child hits a small child in the playground, what

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Speaker 1: do we call that child?

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Speaker 2: Is they're a bully?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, that's what we say. So five years later,

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Speaker 1: that little kid or that big child, maybe he was

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Speaker 1: in grade six, now he's in grade eleven, and he

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Speaker 1: punches a woman for a handbag. So what would we

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Speaker 1: call him then?

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Speaker 2: A delinquent?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, or a mugger. And later still when he

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Speaker 1: slugs a workmate who insults him, we call him a

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Speaker 1: trouble maker. But when he becomes a father and is tiresome,

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Speaker 1: disobedient or disrespectful, child bothers him and he hits that child,

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Speaker 1: we call him a disciplinearian. That's what our culture still does.

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Speaker 1: And I can't help but wonder why it is that

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Speaker 1: I'm not allowed to hit another adult, even one who's

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Speaker 1: been completely unreasonable and who needs to be quote unquote disciplined,

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Speaker 1: without being charged. I'm not allowed to hit my dog,

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Speaker 1: even if it he's on the carpet or rug. But

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Speaker 1: I can still whack my kids legally in this country.

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Speaker 1: It's still legal for me to do that. Like I

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Speaker 1: weigh vastly multiple times what a what a child weighs.

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Speaker 1: I'm far bigger and stronger, but the law doesn't call

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Speaker 1: it abuse. And I know parents will say, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just a gentle tap. But let's put this into perspective, right,

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Speaker 1: So let's imagine that you're dealing with a three year old,

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Speaker 1: so you're going to be at least twice the height,

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Speaker 1: and let's say, I don't know, eight times the weight

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Speaker 1: of a three year old. Imagine if somebody who was

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Speaker 1: twice your height. Let's say your one hundred and sixty centimeters,

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Speaker 1: so somebody that's three point two meters tall. And let's

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Speaker 1: say the average Australian adult weighs seventy five kilos, and

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Speaker 1: let's just go four times the weight, so that's three

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Speaker 1: hundred kilos. A three hundred kilo, three meter giant stands

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Speaker 1: over you and says, I'm just going to give you

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Speaker 1: a tap. Like, as an adult, I think that I

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Speaker 1: wet my pants with fear, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: Like that's terrifying, It's absolutely terrifying, and that's what we

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Speaker 1: do to our kids. And again, the data mean that's

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Speaker 1: the appeal to logic, but the data shows that it

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Speaker 1: doesn't work. So I just think we need to we

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Speaker 1: need to make legislative changes. We need to get this

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Speaker 1: conversation going. I know that you think that that's a

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Speaker 1: really heavy way to bring it in, and we don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily agree on this, but I think this is what

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Speaker 1: the country needs. And by the way, more than fifty

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Speaker 1: countries around the world now have legislation that says not

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Speaker 1: okay to hit kids. And everyone's like, oh, you can't

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Speaker 1: do that. Well, they said that about seat belts in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies and what a difference that seat belt

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Speaker 1: law has made. And in the course of a generation,

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Speaker 1: everyone's mind has changed. And now you wouldn't imagine, you

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Speaker 1: wouldn't dream of getting into a car without a seat belt.

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Speaker 1: It's protective.

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Speaker 2: Well, clearly, we don't have any say over legislation or

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Speaker 2: whether or not it will.

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Speaker 1: I'm working on that, believe me, whether or not it

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Speaker 1: will actually come about or not.

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Speaker 2: But we can help parents. So doctor Justin calls TV experts.

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Speaker 1: Oh, come on, cut it out.

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Speaker 2: They be like that, how do we help parents find

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Speaker 2: better tools to use?

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I think the first thing to do is

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Speaker 1: we've got to remember what the word discipline means a

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Speaker 1: lot of people think that discipline means that we're supposed

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Speaker 1: to punish our kids. But if you look at punishment,

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Speaker 1: the word actually means that you're going to exact retribution.

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Speaker 1: You're going to you're going to make somebody pay a

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Speaker 1: price because you don't like what they've done. And punishment

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Speaker 1: is a really lousy teacher, teacher, a really lousy disciplinarian.

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Speaker 2: Well, it does teach well, it teaches our children all.

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Speaker 1: The wrong stuff exactly. So it teaches the kids that

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Speaker 1: we're scary, that they need to be much sneaky next.

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Speaker 2: Time, that they're not safe with us. Yeah, and the

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Speaker 2: scene they can't trust us to take care of them

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Speaker 2: to keep them safe.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So the word discipline literally means teaching, guiding, and instructing.

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Speaker 1: It's showing somebody a better path, it's showing them the way.

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Speaker 1: So if you're a disciple of someone, you've been disciplined

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Speaker 1: in their way of doing things, you follow their path.

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Speaker 1: So if we're going to discipline our kids, what that

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Speaker 1: really means is we're going to say to our kids,

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Speaker 1: we want to help you to make better choices, which

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Speaker 1: means that we've got to be calm and kind when

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Speaker 1: we discipline, not yelling and angry, and what I call

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Speaker 1: puffer fish parenting, where we blow ourselves up as big

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Speaker 1: as we can to eliminate the threat that our child's

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Speaker 1: posing to our well being and our sanity. So a

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Speaker 1: few things that you can do. Number one, gentle reminders,

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Speaker 1: And Kylie, we've really perfected this in our house. This

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Speaker 1: is something that you've really taken on board over the years.

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Speaker 1: The gentle reminder is or you say it to me

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Speaker 1: all the time about my shoes and socks and the

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Speaker 1: kids shoes and socks. You literally say the name of

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Speaker 1: the person your shoes, and that's about it. And the

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Speaker 1: person goes, oh sorry, I forgot and they put them away,

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Speaker 1: And if they don't, you walk up to them and

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Speaker 1: look them in the eyes and smile and say your

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Speaker 1: shoes and guess what they get moving really quickly.

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Speaker 2: Except for one child, the shoes are still sitting where

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Speaker 2: they were three days ago.

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Speaker 1: There is a developmental reality to this, and sometimes little

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Speaker 1: kids will struggle a little more than the big kids.

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Speaker 1: The next one is the three ease of effective discipline.

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Speaker 1: Now we've got podcasts and articles and book chapters and

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Speaker 1: all sorts of things about this, So I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to spend a lot of time on it, but this

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Speaker 1: is really the most effective way to discipline kids. You

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Speaker 1: can't do it in the moment, you can't do it

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Speaker 1: when there's an audience. You just wait until things have

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Speaker 1: calmed down, and once everyone's rational again, you sit down

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Speaker 1: and say, hey, I want to explore what went on there?

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Speaker 1: What's going on for you? And try to step into

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Speaker 1: their world. You don't explore with an agenda, You just say,

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Speaker 1: help me to understand why this is such a struggle.

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Speaker 1: Then you explain your expectation. This is where you draw

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Speaker 1: aline in the sand and say, hey, kiddo, in our home,

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Speaker 1: we don't hit our siblings, or we don't slam doors,

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Speaker 1: or we don't do whatever it is that they did.

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Speaker 1: And then you empower them. You say, so, what do

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Speaker 1: you reckon we should do to get this right? Next time?

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Speaker 1: Explore explain in power, much more effective, much more likely

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Speaker 1: to internalize, And you know what, it doesn't even take

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Speaker 1: that much longer, but the results are far more long lasting.

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Speaker 2: What's number three?

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Speaker 1: The third one that I'm going to mention is really simple,

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Speaker 1: and that is just be in the moment with them.

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Speaker 1: So if you've got to who's angry or being challenging

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Speaker 1: or being disobedient, step into their world for a bit

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Speaker 1: and say, you seem to be struggling, what can I

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Speaker 1: do to help? Like literally be there with them and

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Speaker 1: ask how can I help you right now? How do

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Speaker 1: we fix this? Where do we go from here? That

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Speaker 1: approach is going to be far more effective than yelling

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Speaker 1: and screaming and shouting and threatening and taking the iPad

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Speaker 1: off them for a week or giving them a whack.

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Speaker 1: Any of those things are far less effective compared to

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Speaker 1: just being there with them, having the compassion and the

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Speaker 1: perspective to teach God and instruct rather than to yell, scream,

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Speaker 1: shout and inflict punishment.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting the other night we had one of our

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Speaker 2: children come up the stairs that were very unhappy with

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Speaker 2: what had just happened. We'd asked them to turn the

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Speaker 2: TV off. They didn't like that the sister had gone

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Speaker 2: down turned the TV off for us.

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Speaker 1: They hate it when one of their siblings starts being

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Speaker 1: the parent.

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Speaker 2: And she walked up the stairs and she just exploded.

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Speaker 1: She did. She kind of went like ringed at the

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Speaker 1: top of her head. I took my microphone away.

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Speaker 2: And the knee jerk reaction was to scream and yell

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Speaker 2: and rant with her.

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Speaker 1: Well, you were actually brilliant. I'm the parenting expert, but

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Speaker 1: in that moment, I was exhausted to have been a

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Speaker 1: huge week, huge day, and I said, right, that's it.

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Speaker 1: And I started to walk towards her, and you just

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Speaker 1: reached out and grabbed my arm, or you didn't even

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Speaker 1: grab my arm, you just put your arm across my

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Speaker 1: body and said just leave her.

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Speaker 2: She walked down the hallway, she slammed her door at

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Speaker 2: about three minutes later, literally she walked out with a

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Speaker 2: smile on her face, and she got on with it.

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Speaker 1: She actually jumped in the bath and started singing songs

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Speaker 1: like that's what she'd been aice to do, go and

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Speaker 1: have a bath, and she just went and did it.

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Speaker 2: And what I love is children have this ability to

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Speaker 2: just feel all of their emotions, and they feel them really,

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Speaker 2: really big. But what often happens when they're in that

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Speaker 2: situation is we try to push them through it too

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Speaker 2: fast because we don't want that emotion, we don't want

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Speaker 2: the behavior that it's creating. And what we've seen, especially

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Speaker 2: with this child, is just letting her have the space

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Speaker 2: to to express herself.

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Speaker 1: Oh gee, you've just reminded me. It's at the metaphor

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Speaker 1: of the train going through the tunnel. If you try

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Speaker 1: to reach down through the mountain and pull the train

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Speaker 1: out through the top of the mountain, you just make

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Speaker 1: a really big mess. But if you let that train

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Speaker 1: go through the tunnel, it comes out the other side

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Speaker 1: and everything. You just get on with life. And then

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Speaker 1: we could have a really simple conversation with he Hey,

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Speaker 1: what was going on before? What's the expectation? What are

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Speaker 1: you going to do next time?

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Speaker 2: And it is such a beautiful teachable moment when we

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Speaker 2: do that.

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Speaker 1: Well, so Parental Guidance, it's gonna keep us talking for

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Speaker 1: the next couple of weeks. I think tonight's episode, I

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Speaker 1: think is the most confronting episode of the whole series,

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Speaker 1: and it is hard to watch. I can't tell you

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Speaker 1: any more than that right now, But if you missed

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Speaker 1: episode one, catch up on the Channel nine website. You

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Speaker 1: can get all the info there and watch Parental Guidance tonight.

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Speaker 1: If you care about your kid's safety, this is one

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00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,560
Speaker 1: you cannot miss. The Happy Family's podcast, as always, is

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Speaker 1: produced by Justin Rulan from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is

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Speaker 1: our executive producer, and if you'd like more info about

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Speaker 1: making your family happier, please visit us at happyfamilies dot

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00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:00,480
Speaker 1: com dot a U where you're find and all the

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00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:04,040
Speaker 1: information you need to know about the Happy Family's memberships,

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Speaker 1: because a happy family doesn't just happen