WEBVTT - Aboriginal Women and the Injustice System 0:00:01.280 --> 0:00:01.440 Good. 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.120 Just before nine o'clock last night, the jury returned guilty 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:08.520 verdicts against all three defendants. 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:11.160 It was absolutely shambles, to tell you the truth, just 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:12.200 absolutely really. 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:14.680 Heaalous blood on his clothing the day after the alleged 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:15.080 at top on. 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:17.000 A shallow mud bank, and it fits Roy River. 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:17.560 Basically. 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:19.279 I think most of the people are used to me 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:20.640 are good people. 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:23.320 I think a really important question we need to ask 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.400 is how many Indigenous prisoners in Australia are innocent. 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:29.960 This is Curtain, a podcast where we pulled back the 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:32.479 blinds to shine a light on the darkest parts of 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:36.280 our justice system and ask who are the victims. I'm 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:38.960 Amy Maguire and I'm. 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:43.080 Martin Hodgson, a senior advocate for the Foreign Prisoner Support Service. 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:47.200 And a warning, this series contains the names of deceased 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:52.160 peoples and has distressing content that might upset some listeners. 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:58.319 Hello and welcome to Curtain, the podcast. We're recording this 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:01.320 episode today in the midst of some very sad news 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:04.559 that's coming out of Western Australia and in the town 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:09.040 of Gerlton. This morning, it was announced that an Aboriginal 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:11.800 woman was killed by police. She'd actually been shot by 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:17.000 a police officer, and an investigation has already begun, but already, 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:21.360 in some of the media reporting has relied very heavily 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:24.440 on the police version of events and in some ways 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:27.400 has already set them up to absolve them of any 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:32.480 potential wrongdoing. So we're talking today about the way the 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:37.360 justice system treats Aboriginal women specifically, and it's a topic 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:41.200 that we've broached several times over the course of this 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:44.200 podcast because of the way that Linda, the victim in 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:47.319 this case, was treated, But we feel we need to 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:50.280 go into it in more depth because just this year, 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:54.400 there's been a number of cases that really shows just 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:57.800 how Aboriginal women are dehumanized in the eyes of the 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:00.240 law and in the eyes of the media, which so 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:04.640 heavily relies on them for their reporting, in which then 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:11.600 represents and which then carries that message to the rest 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:14.720 of the public. So our heart goes out to the 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:19.320 woman's family over in Wa today, because we've obviously seen 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:23.200 through Mardin and my own work, just how it impacts 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:25.920 the family, just how these injustices can tear. 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:28.040 Apart even a community. 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:31.799 And I note that this Aboriginal woman who's passed away 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:33.480 had a seven year old son as well, So our 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:36.720 thoughts going out to not only her family, but the 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:41.080 community in Geraldton and all the extended communities across WA 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:43.280 and maybe even nationally that she may have been a 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:46.240 part of. Today, we're going to begin by taking you 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:50.280 back twenty nine years to another case that is close 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:53.040 to both of our hearts, and it's in relation to 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:57.640 an Aboriginal girl named Colleen Walker. Colleen was last seen 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:01.440 in nineteen ninety one year before Linda death, down in 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:04.640 the mid North Coast community of Barraval and specifically on 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:07.640 the Mission. She was the first of the three Bowerville 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:11.880 children to have gone missing around that time. Over the 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:17.320 next few months, Evelyn Greenups would go missing and later 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:20.360 be found dead she was only three years old, and 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:23.320 then Clinton Speedy Dureau was later found murdered as well. 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:27.360 And all of these cases have been tied together. But 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:31.280 we're going to talk specifically about Colleen today because just 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:34.640 earlier this month it was the twenty ninth anniversary of 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:37.520 her disappearance, and Colleen has never been found, and I 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:41.480 know that that has been a cause of real grief 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:44.560 and distress to her family who have never been able 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:48.280 to lay her to rest Martin. When we read about 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:53.240 the Barraval case, it becomes very obvious that the police 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:58.000 perspective on Colleen as an Aboriginal woman had very much 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:01.280 colored the way they conducted their instigation. To begin with, 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:04.760 they basically claim that she'd gone walk about, and they 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:09.040 even questioned her mother, Muriel, about whether she was even 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:12.280 her daughter because Colin was fair skinned. This is quite 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:14.800 a common thing to happen to Aboriginal women, and I 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:17.640 think so. I think it really shows the police conduct 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:21.880 towards Colleen's family at that time. It shows how often 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:27.840 the issue of aboriginality and gender really combined to prejudice 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:31.200 the way the police approached these cases. 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:33.679 Can you tell me a little bit about that. How does. 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:36.960 I mean back at that time? Was that a very 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:39.080 common common thing to happen In your opinion? 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:44.120 I think it was incredibly common then, and unfortunately it's 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:49.080 still common now. When Colin's family in the past week 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:52.839 have been discussing the fact that it's been twenty nine years, 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:55.760 one thing I've gone and done is just have a 0:04:55.800 --> 0:05:00.599 look at the way the police report missing persons, but 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:03.680 particularly young women. We have to remember that Colleen was 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:07.239 a child she was just sixteen years old at the time, 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:12.000 and so normally the police reaction is very swift when 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:16.719 a child goes missing, and a lot of people will say, well, 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:20.920 if Colleen was on the North Shore or somewhere like that. 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:23.960 And there's a number of cases. I won't name them 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:26.680 because it's unfair to the children, but there was obviously 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:30.080 a very high profile case a few years ago on 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:32.880 the North Shore where a young woman went missing for 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:37.240 less than twenty four hours that gained enormous media attention. 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:42.039 But just in the past few weeks there's been cases 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:47.720 in both Queensland and New South Wales of children fifteen, 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:51.760 sixteen and seventeen. Young girls the same age as Colleen 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:59.040 was when she went missing. They'refrom a variety of socioeconomic backgrounds. 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:02.520 One young woman was from an. 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:06.520 Asian background, another from an African background, and the police 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:11.640 immediately was supportive of the family, have covered social media 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:17.479 with missing persons information, have called for the public to 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:22.600 provide information that would lead to their whereabouts. So there's 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:27.080 been no questioning in any of those cases about the 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:31.760 family and their involvement, or whether the child is really theirs, 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:35.440 whether the child is really missing. In fact, or just 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:40.080 gone walk about, as the police claimed with Colleen. So 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:44.000 it's something that still goes on to this day and 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:46.240 is very specific to. 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:48.680 Aboriginal people and Aboriginal families. 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:52.680 No other community is treated in this way, and I 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:55.640 think we have to be very clear about that. There 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:59.839 is a reason why when we talk about debts in custody, 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:05.360 the unsolved murders of Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander women, why 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:09.279 the numbers are so stark compared to any other group 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:13.360 in society, and it is because of the way Aboriginal 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:17.480 women are treated exclusively compared to anyone else. 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:20.200 Madam, could you imagine, I mean, this seemed to be 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:23.320 quite It's been said quite a few times, both from 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:30.960 the police who actually reinvestigated the original investigation, but also 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:34.480 it's been said in the media by supportive politicians that 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:38.640 this was quite an open and shutcase. So I can 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:43.720 imagine that if the police had taken Colleen's case seriously 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:50.400 at the time, you know, she may have been found already. 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:53.760 Right now, the passage of time has not only compounded 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:58.080 the family's grief, but it has also really prohibited another 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:01.200 getting this case back in court. And as I understand 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:03.480 that Colleen's case has never actually been taken to court 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:07.360 because her body has never been found. Do you think 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:11.200 things could have been different if Colleen had been treated 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:14.240 in the right way or her case had been taken seriously? 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:15.640 Absolutely. 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:18.600 I think if the family had been being believed from 0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:24.640 the outset, I think, unfortunately, Colleen's body would have been found. 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:28.760 I say unfortunately because I think she would have already 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:32.200 been killed by the time the family were aware she 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:35.400 was missing, as was the case with the other children. 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:38.959 But it would have given the police a much greater 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:41.680 chance of solving the crime and catching the. 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:42.720 Person who. 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:48.360 Clearly has committed the other murders, and it would have 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:53.040 prevented those other murders that took place a period of 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:58.280 time after. What we know about Colleen's case is, even 0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:01.880 though her body was never found, her clothes were found 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:05.240 in the nanbucka river weighted down. Now, that is a 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:10.040 deliberate act. This is not an accident. Someone has taken 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:13.880 considerable measure to do this. This is someone who knows 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:16.960 what they're doing, and I think it's obvious given the 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:21.880 follow up murders as well. Now, there's a TV show 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:25.360 that most people probably know called First forty eight about 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:29.080 the first forty eight hours after a murder's taken place. 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:32.160 Many TV shows, and I would. 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:36.800 Say the fast majority bear no resemblance to how police 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:41.040 investigations work in the real world, but that one does 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:45.240 because it follows real police and those first forty eight 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:50.360 hours are crucial. In that time, the police did nothing 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:54.760 for Colleen. They did nothing for days, weeks, months, years, 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:59.640 and it is absolutely their responsibility and their fail those 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:04.640 initial investigating officers that this has not been solved, and 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:07.960 that they could have prevented the murder of Clinton and Evelyn, 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:12.400 and that the real killer, who's never been brought to justice, 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:16.439 could have long been serving a life sentence. In fact, 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:19.959 as you mentioned earlier, it's been twenty nine years. That 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:22.640 person should have been in prison for that twenty nine 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:24.200 years and still be there today. 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:25.960 But because. 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:31.360 Colleen was Aboriginal and her family were, that person remains free. 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:34.240 And it's only because she was Aboriginal. 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:40.040 And you mentioned about the fact that no other group 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:42.520 in Australia is ever treated like this. We have a 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:45.840 lot of international listeners and I think it's important to 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:47.400 note to them that you know. 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:49.920 This is not just the police who thinks this. 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:52.920 This is a society that has been largely set up 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:55.120 on the dehumanization of Aboriginal women. 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:57.640 And so this is a really long. 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:02.720 There's been a really long history of Aboriginal women through 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:06.560 the generations basically being treated as disposable, and I think 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:10.520 that's what led into the way the police treated Colleen's 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:11.840 family that day. 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:12.280 There's this. 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.839 Belief and assumption that's never really challenged that Aboriginal women 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:23.320 are worthless, almost and I think that's why we see 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:25.640 so many cases and we're going to talk a bit 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:28.880 today where Aboriginal women are the victim of violence, not 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:33.840 only violence interpersonal violence, but also state sanctioned violence, and 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:38.400 it's never be met by outrage at all. And if Colleen, 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:41.320 Colleen's case had been taken seriously by the police, but 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:44.840 also the media at the time, because straight away the 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:48.120 Barable families were out protesting Innbearable and Bearable at the 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:49.959 time was a racist place. I mean, it's still a 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:54.640 racist place, had a long history of segregation. But they 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:56.800 were protesting from the very get go because they knew 0:11:56.840 --> 0:12:00.240 straight away that something had happened to their kids. It's 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:03.320 instead the police were investigating them for child abuse when 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:06.880 the families actually knew that something really dodgy and horrendous 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:10.080 had gone on, but even then, the media and the 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:13.640 rest of Australia didn't rise up for these kids. And 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:16.200 I think that goes back to the value that's so 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:20.599 often placed on Aboriginal women by society, and over in 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:24.760 Canada particularly, they've had a national inquiry into missing a 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:28.760 murdered Aboriginal women because it's been a huge issue over 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:31.680 that there and it's gone on for so long. Whether 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:34.280 there's been so many cases of missing a murdered Aboriginal 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:37.840 women that have never been properly looked into, and in 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:40.200 fact the police have been been involved in some of 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:43.640 those cases. But the reason that that has been opened 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:46.200 up as an issue is because of the long history 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:49.440 of advocacy from Aboriginal women and the families of these women. 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:53.560 I think in Australia, I think we have potentially a 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:57.600 similar a similar case over here, only we have lower 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:00.760 numbers of Aboriginal women, like we have a lot or population, 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:04.720 and there's never been proper statistics into it at all, 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:09.680 or there's not appropriate homicide statistics even currently, and a 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:15.080 lot of discourses around family violence, so we don't have 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:18.439 that same situation where we're actually looking into it properly 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:20.199 as in Canada. 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:21.480 But I just wanted to provide that. 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:24.400 Context, particularly not only for our international listeners but also 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:29.640 our Australian listeners who can't get their head around how 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:35.040 this being a woman, but being an Aboriginal woman could 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:39.679 lead to such a devaluation of life in the eyes 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:40.200 of the law. 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:44.240 I think, just briefly to touch on and add to what 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:48.120 you've said, is that we've seen in the last few 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:53.080 years a number of murders of non Indigenous women where 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:59.720 media coverage rightfully has been blanket coverage. We've seen a 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:05.480 lot large amount of interest from politicians, from the community sector, 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:09.720 the health sector, and right across society, but particularly the 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:14.920 media has covered these cases with great sympathy, empathy and compassion, 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:15.760 as they should. 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:19.560 But as Amy and I are aware, just in. 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:24.920 The course of investigating what happened to Linda, we know 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:28.840 of a number of cases of Aboriginal women being murdered 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:32.720 that are still unsolved to this day. There was another 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:36.080 case in Rockhampton before Linda was murdered, where the body 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:39.080 was placed in the river. There was an Aboriginal woman 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:43.800 murdered on the Queensland New South Wales border that remains unsolved, 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:49.440 and Australia dotted with these cases to receive none of 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:54.760 the media attention, none of the public support, no politician 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:59.320 ever comes out to support the families. And what you 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:03.840 end up with these decades of suffering and trauma for 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:08.000 the families and never any justice whatsoever. And it's strictly 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:11.640 because the women who were the victims of these horrific 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:18.040 crimes were Aboriginal and their killers go free, and there 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:23.520 seems to be no concern whatsoever to amend the way 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:26.720 we think about these cases in the first place, and 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:30.160 that begins with how we value the humanity of aberigem 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:30.600 and women. 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:33.920 And I just also wanted to add on to that, Martin. 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:37.120 I mean talking about Linda's case, but also Colleen's case, 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:41.480 which occurred only the year before, only probably a few months. 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:44.040 Before Linda died. 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:47.080 So this was a time when there was a Royal 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:50.520 commission into Aboriginal deaths in custody and the commission was 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:53.200 very much focused. I mean there was nine to nine cases, 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:56.160 about eleven of them were Aboriginal women who died in custody, 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:01.440 but the commission was very much focused on Aboriginal men, 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:04.160 and they didn't really look into the role of gender 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:09.520 or the very specific or the very specific forms of 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:13.920 violence that were perpetrated against Aboriginal women because of gender 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:15.160 and race colliding. 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:17.560 But around that time, a lot of. 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:21.320 Aboriginal women, like Judy Atkinson and Body Robertson were actually 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:23.920 talking about the fact that there was a problem around 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:25.080 violence against Aberagin women. 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:26.360 A lot of Aboriginal women were. 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:28.440 Dying and there was no justice and there was no 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:30.880 protection to prevent it. 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:33.720 And yet we never heard about these cases. 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:36.840 And I think that was very true of Linda and Colleen, 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:39.680 because we didn't hear about Linda or Colleen in nine 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:44.800 ninety or nine ninety one. I mean Linda's Linda's Linda's 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:47.200 picture was on the front page the day after she 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:50.480 was found, but then it slowly retreated to the back pages. 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:55.120 And as we know, the murder was apparently solved in 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:57.680 a week and they got the wrong person, and so 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:01.240 the police hadn't even cared enough to investigate it. Meanwhile, 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:06.560 there was a national wide focus on destin custody, which 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:10.040 I'm not I'm not putting the two isshes, I'm not 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:12.760 comparing the two isshes in any way or or saying 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:15.200 that they shouldn't have been that focus, but the fact 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:20.040 that there wasn't a specific focus, particularly on the unique 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:24.840 experiences of Aboriginal women, not just in relation to interpersonal violence, 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:28.320 the violence perpetrated against them, but also violence in the 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:35.040 state system and the way the police approaches victims of 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:38.800 homicide who are Aboriginal. I think it just speaks volumes 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:44.040 about how Aboriginal women are continually disregarded in so many 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:47.520 nationwide debates which have which have really led to this 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:49.679 situation where we don't really know the full scale of 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:53.080 the situation other than anecdotes that we know from our 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:56.240 own experiences in communities all across the country. 0:17:57.520 --> 0:17:59.720 And I think that that leads into the fact that 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:03.040 we are talking about a number of cases that occurred 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:06.280 nearly thirty years ago, but back when that Layal Commission 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:10.680 was taking place. But one of the truly shocking things 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:14.320 is that not only was it a missed opportunity at 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:16.760 the time, as you say, to look at the very 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:21.520 specific types of violence and injustice average and the women faced. 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:24.840 But people have to get it out of their minds 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:28.280 that this is something that stopped, as we know with 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:33.600 Miss du her death wasn't just a result of police action, 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:38.080 it was also the health department, and she'd. 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:39.920 Been the victim of domestic violence. 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.480 In the case of Miss Maher in New South Wales, 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:47.760 I think there's been a great deal of bad reporting 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:51.760 on exactly what happened and why she died, And one 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:54.679 of the reasons that led to her death in custody 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:57.440 was the fact that she was wrongly. 0:18:57.119 --> 0:18:59.720 Reported to be HIV positive. 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:02.960 She in fact had had a test that had returned 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:06.920 HIV negative, but was reported to the police who were 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:11.439 detaining her for being intoxicated in public, which is something 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:16.760 that should never occur. And so this misinformation about an 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:20.879 Aboriginal woman must have come from a health department and 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:24.679 then was relayed and simply assumed even though it was 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:30.680 inaccurate by the police. Now, not only does that suggest 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:35.800 that the police handle Aboriginal women very differently, but so 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:40.439 too does the health department, and all her humanity was 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:45.200 stripped aside. If she had been indeed HIV positive, which 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:50.159 she wasn't, then it should which is what the police assumed. 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:53.800 Then her health should have been placed at an even 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:59.639 greater importance. This is a serious health condition, but instead 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:04.320 it was used as a way to reduce her humanity 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:07.800 even further to the point that they simply let her 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:12.600 die in one of their cells and did nothing to 0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:16.760 ever get help for her at any point. I think 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:20.840 what we see is that nothing's changed in this thirty years. 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:23.359 It's thirty years since the. 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:29.360 Royal Commission, twenty nine years since Colleen went missing, and 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:34.760 nothing's changed. So where the Royal Commission, I think we 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:39.159 have to accept failed was in any understanding of the 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:42.680 way society as well as the justice system. 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:43.840 Has failed Aboriginal women. 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:47.440 And as you rightly pointed out, there was Aboriginal women 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:50.560 at the time and long before that were pointing this out. 0:20:50.600 --> 0:20:51.920 And I think if we're going to get to the 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:54.919 bottom of this, we don't need a Royal Commission. We 0:20:54.960 --> 0:20:57.640 need a truth and justice commission that is led by 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:01.399 Aboriginal women who have the experiences to get to the 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:06.280 bottom of this, because truthfully, they already know the answers. 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:09.280 I just wanted to come back to Rebecca Mar's case. 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:13.879 So Rebecca Mar had actually been picked up off the 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:19.840 street in cessnock Down near Newcastle, and she passed away 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:24.560 in the police watchhouse and it took a while for 0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:28.119 the actual details of her death to come out in 0:21:28.640 --> 0:21:32.000 the media. I actually don't think it would have come 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:37.520 out without press releases from the Aboriginal Legal Service down there. 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:40.880 But at the time there was a very specific narrative 0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:43.960 that preempted any investigation into her death. And it's why 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:48.320 we're only hearing really now what actually went on, and 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:50.800 that was because of an inquest. But there was a 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:54.520 narrative about the fact that the Custody and Notification Service 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:59.159 should have been called, even though at the time, because 0:21:59.160 --> 0:22:02.120 she hadn't been charged with anything, they probably wouldn't have 0:22:02.160 --> 0:22:04.760 called it anyway, even if they had called the CNS. 0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:08.960 In your South Wales, how did that narrative actually dominate 0:22:09.040 --> 0:22:12.879 and I guess overpower the really other crucial issues that 0:22:12.960 --> 0:22:15.200 led to Rebecca's Mars death. 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:19.080 In your opinion, well, I think what we saw the 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:23.840 most well known aspect of Miss Marr's death was an 0:22:23.960 --> 0:22:28.240 editorial given on the project by Wali Dai, and it 0:22:28.640 --> 0:22:35.200 largely revolved around things like the CNS and how that. 0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:37.359 Could have prevented Miss Marr's death. 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:43.840 The Custody Notification Service could not have prevented Miss Marr's death, 0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:50.200 and unfortunately that editorial on the project was allowed to 0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:55.280 dictate the way the case was analyzed without any information. 0:22:56.119 --> 0:22:59.800 It was done largely based on information that was in 0:22:59.840 --> 0:23:00.720 our accurate and. 0:23:00.720 --> 0:23:02.680 Wrong provided by the police. 0:23:04.440 --> 0:23:08.200 There's also been some misreporting recent Aboriginal people in New 0:23:08.240 --> 0:23:14.439 South Wales cannot be arrested for being intoxicated. Well, the 0:23:14.560 --> 0:23:19.480 recent coronial inquest set that straight and this is what 0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:25.119 the coroner had to say on that matter. Rebecca was 0:23:25.160 --> 0:23:29.600 detained to the Maitland Police station as an intoxicated person 0:23:29.960 --> 0:23:34.359 persuayant to Section two six y four of the LPRA. 0:23:35.720 --> 0:23:39.919 We need to stop having reporters in major media outlets 0:23:40.000 --> 0:23:44.200 reporting that people can't be taken into police custody because 0:23:44.200 --> 0:23:46.400 of intoxication in New South Wales. 0:23:46.880 --> 0:23:49.400 That's exactly what happened to Miss. 0:23:49.280 --> 0:23:53.919 Marr Now, the other issue that we need to know 0:23:54.119 --> 0:23:58.320 here is that Miss Marl was not intoxicated with alcohol, 0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:00.720 which is the reason that she was kicked up in 0:24:00.760 --> 0:24:07.239 the first place by police. Intoxication does not trigger a 0:24:07.280 --> 0:24:12.520 custody notification call, so it wouldn't have prevented her death. 0:24:13.280 --> 0:24:16.280 But let's say even if the law was updated to 0:24:16.400 --> 0:24:20.040 include the fact that a person taken into police cassidy 0:24:20.160 --> 0:24:25.760 because of intoxication triggered that call. By the time anyone 0:24:25.920 --> 0:24:29.520 got to that police station, miss marr was already on 0:24:29.600 --> 0:24:33.520 the way to die. She was already dying, and that 0:24:33.600 --> 0:24:37.800 has been proven by the inquest. A phone call to 0:24:37.880 --> 0:24:41.000 a lawyer does not save a person who is in 0:24:41.240 --> 0:24:45.679 immediate danger. In our cells, the narrative we should be 0:24:45.680 --> 0:24:50.600 pushing is not for an expansion of calling telephone numbers. 0:24:51.600 --> 0:24:56.600 It should be for police to leave Aboriginal people alone. 0:24:57.440 --> 0:25:02.439 Miss maher was either so unwell that she needed to 0:25:02.480 --> 0:25:06.800 be in a hospital, or she'd committed no crime at 0:25:06.800 --> 0:25:10.240