1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: I'm not a big believer in willpower. I think when 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: you start having to use willpower, you're already losing the game. 3 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:09,879 Speaker 1: What I do is is you reconstruct the environment. 4 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 5 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 6 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 2: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imbac. I'm an 7 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 2: organizational psychologist, the CEO of Inventium, and I'm obsessed with 8 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 2: finding ways to optimize my workday. My guest today is 9 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 2: Dan Pink. Dan is the author of six best selling books, 10 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 2: including Drive, a Whole New Mind, and his latest book When, 11 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 2: the Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing, which also happens to 12 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 2: have spent four months on the New York Times bestseller list. 13 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 2: You might also be familiar with Dan through his ted 14 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 2: talk about the Surprising Science of Motivation, which has been 15 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 2: viewed over twenty million times now. I'm a big Dan 16 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 2: Pink fan, so I was very excited to be able 17 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 2: to chat with him. I think he has such a 18 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 2: knack for dissecting conflict science and finding a way to 19 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 2: make it not just accessible, but memorable and impactful for 20 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,479 Speaker 2: his readers. My chat with Dan starts with hearing more 21 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 2: about his process for writing books, and then we also 22 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 2: chat about how he completely restructured his work day based 23 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:22,559 Speaker 2: on the research that he'd uncovered when writing his latest 24 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 2: book When. So on that note over to Dan to 25 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 2: find out about how he works. Dan, Welcome to the show. 26 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me, Mamantha. Good to be here. Now. 27 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 2: I want to start with your books, because you've written 28 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 2: six books over around the last twenty or so years, 29 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 2: and I want to start by understanding where do your 30 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 2: book ideas come from? And maybe if you can talk 31 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 2: me through how your latest book, When came to be? 32 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: Right, Well, i'll start with the second question first. This 33 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: latest book When came to be largely out of frustration. 34 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: I was making all kinds of timing decisions in my 35 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: own life, and you know, everything from when in the 36 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: day should I exercise, When should I do my writing, 37 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:11,079 Speaker 1: and even more episodic things like when should I start 38 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: a project? When should I abandon a project if it's 39 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: not working. I was making these decisions in a very haphazard, 40 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 1: ill informed way, which frustrated me. I wanted to make 41 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: them in a more intelligent way, so I looked around 42 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: for guidance and didn't exist, And then I started looking 43 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,959 Speaker 1: around at the science, not even looking around, just wondering 44 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 1: whether there was any science, and it turned out there 45 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: was a lot of science on this topic. And that's 46 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: how I got into that. Now that the genesis of 47 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 1: this book is a little bit different from what often happens, 48 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: which is that I have files of ideas. And when 49 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: I say ideas, they're barely even ideas. They're just shards 50 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: of stuff. And so I will keep them in paper folders, 51 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: I will keep them in dropbox full, I will keep 52 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: them in email folders. 53 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:06,799 Speaker 3: I will keep them. 54 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: I will use ever note, and I return to these things, 55 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 1: you know, every few months, sift through, and I always 56 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: have a running list of ideas of stuff I want 57 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: to work on. And when I return to a lot 58 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: of these ideas, they a lot of the ideas stink. 59 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: So I get rid of those, and it's just a 60 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: constant churn. And my view is that in order to 61 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: have a good idea, you have to have a lot 62 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: of ideas, and when you have a lot of ideas, 63 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: you have a lot of bad ideas. 64 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 3: And I have a lot of bad ideas. 65 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 2: How do you know whether an idea is good or 66 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 2: whether it stinks. 67 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 3: Great question. I'm not sure. I don't. 68 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: I wish there were some kind of blood tests something 69 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: definitive like that, but but there is not. 70 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 3: Some of it is. 71 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: It's it's actually a very interesting question on a number 72 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: of different dimensions. So part of it has to do 73 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: with you know, your own taste, and I think in 74 00:03:55,160 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: any kind of creative endeavor, people develop taste and and 75 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: so something and you say, well, you know what, that's 76 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: not my taste. My intuitive sense of taste says this 77 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: is not quite right. So that's one thing. Second thing 78 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: would be, is this something I really want to work on? 79 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: And a lot of times something that seems really alluring 80 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: at first turns out to be deadening. 81 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 3: When you explore it a little bit more. 82 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 1: And then another one would be, I, like, you know, 83 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: talking to people about various ideas that I have, just 84 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: to hear how they react to it. And the reaction 85 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: that I find most useful is not that's a terrible idea, 86 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: that's a good idea, but huh, that's interesting. Have you 87 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: thought about X, Y, or Z and so something that 88 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: engages people enough to ask a question? 89 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 2: And so with your book, when how did you know 90 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 2: or when did you know that you were really onto 91 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 2: something with that. 92 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: Well, one of the things that I do is, I 93 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: it's another really good question. One of the things that 94 00:04:57,680 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: I do when I develop a book is that I 95 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: always write a book proposal. Now, typically when writers are 96 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: just starting out, they do book proposals as you know, 97 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: as there have more work behind them, they need less 98 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: elaborate proposals. 99 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 3: Topic. 100 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: Often for me, I like writing book proposals because it's 101 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 1: a test of an idea. And so there have been 102 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: many times when I said, hey, here's an idea. It 103 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: survived over a couple of years on the list, I've 104 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: marshaled some research. Hey this research looks pretty good, and 105 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 1: then I'll start writing a book proposal. And a book 106 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 1: proposal is, you know, not a complicated document. It basically 107 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 1: it says, here's what this book is about. Here's where 108 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 1: it fits into the whole ecosystem of ideas. Here is 109 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: why I'm the perfect person to write it. Here, who's 110 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: here are the people who are going to be interested 111 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 1: in a book like this, et cetera, et cetera. And 112 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: there are been many times when I thought I had 113 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: a good idea and I started writing the book proposal, 114 00:05:57,400 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: and I was like, no, this is not a good idea. 115 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: It didn't together with when. It was one of the 116 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: few book proposals that I've written where it just was 117 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: like butter, It just smooth and creamy all the way through. 118 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: And that's how I knew that I was onto a 119 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 1: pretty good idea. 120 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 3: Ah. 121 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 2: I like that. I mean, book proposals are almost like 122 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 2: the business case of the writer's world. 123 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: I guess absolutely they are more like You're totally right, 124 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: They're more like a business plan than a literary. 125 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 3: Product. 126 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. And when you first released When, which I think 127 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 2: was about a year ago, and I read it from 128 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 2: memory like a few days after it had come out, 129 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 2: I thought it was just such a brilliant idea for 130 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,359 Speaker 2: a book. And I feel like I remember you. I 131 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 2: reel like I remember you talking in an interview quite 132 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 2: a few months ago where When was quite hard to 133 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 2: structure and that you went through a lot of different 134 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 2: drafts of the table of contests. Can you talk me 135 00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 2: through what that process was like and how you did 136 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 2: land on the final structure for the book? 137 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, it's you know, I'm a big believe 138 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: when it comes to book nonfiction books. I think the 139 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: same thing is true with fiction. I'm a big believer 140 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: in structure. Structure solves a lot of problems, structure makes 141 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: structure helps out readers, and structure gives you a sense 142 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: of whether what you have has integrity. And I tried 143 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: a couple of approaches to structuring the book. I knew 144 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: there are certain like big elements that I wanted in there, 145 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: but I wasn't sure. And so I went through several 146 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe fifteen or so, as you say, 147 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: draft table of contents, just to feel how it all, 148 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: to feel how it all hung together. And I just 149 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: had a sense and again it goes back to one 150 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: of your early questions that this is just not quite right. 151 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: And once again I would bounce it off of other people, 152 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: not a huge people, but I would say, hey, what 153 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: do you think of this? 154 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 3: What do you think of that? 155 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: And you know, and I wanted to see how other 156 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: people responded. And I think I began simply saying, Okay, 157 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: you know what I'm going to do. I know this 158 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: is a chapter, so let me write this chapter and 159 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: then put the total structure aside. But over time, if 160 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: you just keep coming back to it, and keep coming 161 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: back to it, and keep coming back to it, you 162 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:27,119 Speaker 1: will find a the material in some ways will tell 163 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: you what the structure is. But again, not everybody agrees 164 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 1: with me. Not everybody agrees with it, but I think 165 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: structure matters enormously, and I see too many books out 166 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: there that are poorly constructed, wobbly, and I think it 167 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: makes it harder for readers to enjoy the book and 168 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: get something from the ideas presented in it. 169 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,439 Speaker 2: Couldn't agree more. And I really like the structure that 170 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 2: you landed on. I feel like it's not like with 171 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 2: some books you read them and it's it's a pretty 172 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 2: intuitive structure. You kind of go, well, of course it's 173 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 2: structured that way. But but I like where you landed 174 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 2: with when I feel like it's not the most intuitive structure, 175 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 2: but it works really well in terms of I guess, 176 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 2: constructing the arguments. Yeah, and I want to talk about 177 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 2: the title as well, for when and how how did 178 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:20,679 Speaker 2: the title come to you? 179 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: This is one of those titles are hard and I've 180 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: always I've wrestled with titles for various books that I've 181 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: I've that I've worked on a lot. I mean, titles 182 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: are you know, mostly art. Maybe is a little bit 183 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: of science, and I've changed and a lot of times 184 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: I've had books that start out with one title, and 185 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: then as the research and writing goes on, the title changes, 186 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: and the changes again and changes again, changes again. This 187 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: one actually had the same title in the proposal as 188 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: it did in the final cover. The book was always 189 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: called When. I'm not sure why that one held up. 190 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: Where the other books that I've had have changed their 191 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 1: titles a lot, and we have wrestled with them. 192 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 3: Now what now? 193 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: Occasionally now authors and publishers will do some testing, some 194 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 1: market testing of titles, and you know, I'm I'm that 195 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: can be a good idea many in many cases. But 196 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: but I have I have wrestled with I have wrestled 197 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: with things. And sometimes when I go back to the 198 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: both the paper and electronic files of other books, I forget. 199 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 3: I don't find them. You know. I look at a book. 200 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: Called you know, I wrote a book called Drive about 201 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 1: the science of motivation, and that book was not called 202 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: Drive until very close to the end. And so all 203 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: my files are labeled something else, you know, because that's what, 204 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: you know, whatever the title was back then. So titles 205 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 1: are titles are Titles are tricky, And what I have 206 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: found is that I'm much is a common attribute of 207 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: problem solving? 208 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 3: Is it? 209 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: Sometimes we're better off solving other people's problems than our own. 210 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: I'm pretty good at coming up with titles for other people. 211 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: I stink it coming up with titles for myself. 212 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 2: And I actually wanted to delve into that. I remember 213 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 2: when I read Give and Take by Adam Grant, reading 214 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 2: in the acknowledgments that he'd thanked you for coming up 215 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 2: with the title for that book, and and so, what 216 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 2: is that process like when you're advising someone on a title. 217 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: That's some careful reading of acknowledgments there. 218 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 2: I love the acknowledgment sections of books. 219 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 3: Yes, so do I I actually love them too. I'm sorry, 220 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 3: I'm sorry. What was the question? 221 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 2: I want to know? Like, what's the process? 222 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: I've only forgotten now? I was so amazed that someone had. 223 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 2: Read I feel like writers love the acknowledgment section, and 224 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 2: being a writer, I love that section. I feel like 225 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 2: it gives you interesting insight. But yeah, with Adam Grant's 226 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 2: book Give and Take, he said that he credits you 227 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 2: with coming up for the title. And I don't know 228 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 2: if you remember how how how you did that or 229 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 2: how that process works for you. 230 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: I do remember that particular incident because I live in 231 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: I live in the east coast of the United States, Washington, 232 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: d C. The federal capital of the United States of America, 233 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: and I have been self employed for twenty years, and 234 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: because I am a staunch believer in low overhead, I 235 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: have never had an office outside of my home, and 236 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: these days, for the last eight years or so, eight 237 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: plus years, I have worked in the garage behind my 238 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: house and. 239 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 3: Whenever. 240 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:38,319 Speaker 1: This was not probably seven years ago or so, I'd 241 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:43,199 Speaker 1: gotten to know Adam, and he came over and we 242 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: were talking about the idea of this particular book that 243 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: he was contemplating writing, and I thought it was great. 244 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: I thought it was a great topic. I thought he'd 245 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 1: be a great person to write it. It's a book 246 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: that I absolutely like. At that moment I wanted to read, 247 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: so I was really excited about it. And for whatever reason, 248 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,199 Speaker 1: I said, hey, I think this is your title ended 249 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: up being the title. 250 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 3: So wow. 251 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,439 Speaker 1: I guess I was inspired by I was inspired by 252 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: his excellent idea, I think, and I also, I guess 253 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 1: in some part of me wanted to help make this 254 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: book come to fruition. 255 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 3: So I could read it. 256 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 2: Hmm, I did that. Did that sort of spark of 257 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 2: inspiration just come to you or were you thinking, I 258 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 2: guess of you know, different phrases that were in like 259 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 2: the vernacular. Do you remember how that happened? 260 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 3: I don't remember that well enough. 261 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: But see, I actually liked trying to come up with 262 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: titles and because yeah, it's I just think it's a 263 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: really interesting exercise and thinking and creativity. But it's one 264 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: where if I'm not integrally involved, I probably do it 265 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,080 Speaker 1: a little bit better than if it's something that has 266 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: that's something that has my name on it. 267 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 2: And so what's your starting point for that? Like, you know, 268 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 2: if you were to give advice to a writer who's 269 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 2: struggling with the title of their book, like what what 270 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 2: kind of roots would you recommend that they explore? 271 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: What I would that's another really interesting question. What I 272 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: would suggest would be I'll tell you what I do. 273 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: What I listen for when someone comes to me with 274 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 1: this issue is I want to hear how they talk 275 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 1: about it, and I want to ask them questions about it, 276 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: and I want to look for phrases, words, turns of 277 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: phrase that somehow seem fresh and novel and interesting and 278 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: make me want to explore. And again, there's probably a 279 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: way if I were to completely reconstruct this kind of advice, 280 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: it would be a little bit more systematic than that. 281 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: But I think there's something to be said when it 282 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: comes to titles for talking about your stuff out loud, 283 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: not giving a speech or anything, but just telling your 284 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: friend or your spouse or another writer, Hey, what are 285 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: you work on? Oh, it's about this, that and the 286 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: other thing. And a lot of times within that description 287 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: there'll be a word or phrase that's seems really delicious 288 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: and you just take that piece of fruit up the vine. 289 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 2: Oh I like that. That's that's nice. And I think 290 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 2: good advice for anyone that's thinking about naming any kind 291 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 2: of a project, whether it be a book or something else. 292 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's also there's also a there's also something 293 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: to be said for generating a lot of ideas for names. 294 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: So and so, one thing that you can do for 295 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: generating titles is just, you know, get three or four 296 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: people together and say, okay, we're going to generate. We're 297 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: going to sit here for half an hour and we're 298 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: going to come up with sixty possible titles, and you 299 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: just start like spitting things out and building up of 300 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: other people's ideas, and out of that sixty, you know, 301 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: fifty of them are going to be horrible ideas, but 302 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: within that remaining ten one of them might be decent. 303 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 3: Mmmm. 304 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. I want to move on to to understanding, like 305 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 2: what are some of the practical strategies that you apply 306 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 2: in your own working life? And I imagine that like 307 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 2: writing a book like When, which I feel well is 308 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,479 Speaker 2: full of really interesting ideas but also is incredibly practical, 309 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 2: and there's a lot of really tactical advice in the book, 310 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 2: which I love. Like, what have been some of I guess, 311 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 2: you know, out of When or out of any of 312 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 2: the research that you've done, all the books that you've written, 313 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 2: have been sort of the most impactful, I guess, tactical 314 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 2: things that you've changed about how you work and how 315 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 2: you work currently in my own life. 316 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, so, I mean When I had a lot of those. 317 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: So, for instance, one of the ideas in When has 318 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: to do with the pattern of our performance and our 319 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: attention and our mood over the course of a day 320 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: and how we go through this day typically in three stages, 321 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: a peak, a trough, and a recovery. 322 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 3: Most of us go in that order. Night outs go 323 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 3: in a very different order. 324 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: And I realize, I'm looking at some of this research 325 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: that I should be doing my heads down analytic work 326 00:16:55,840 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: writing first thing in the morning, definitely in the morning. 327 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: And I changed my schedule around there so that on 328 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: writing days, I will set myself a word count, however 329 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 1: many words, you know, not a lot, seven hundred words, say, 330 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: and I would come into my office. I don't come 331 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: in exceptionally early. I come in at half past eight, 332 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,199 Speaker 1: and I'll say, okay, today, I got to write at 333 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: seven hundred words. And I won't bring my phone into 334 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: the office with me, I will not open up my email, 335 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: I will not do anything until I hit those seven 336 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: hundred words and then I'm free to do other things 337 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 1: and that. And so the idea that this peak period, 338 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 1: this idea that the research showing that I had this 339 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: three or four hour peak of vigilance and ability not 340 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 1: to be distracted, that I shouldn't furtuit it that a way, 341 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: answering email or going on Twitter or any of that nonsense. 342 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: I really stuck to that and use that kind of 343 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: schedule to actually write this particular book. And this is 344 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: the first. Out of the six, five of them were late, 345 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: only one was on time, and this was the one 346 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: on time. 347 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 2: Oh wow, that's interesting. And how like I mean, does 348 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,239 Speaker 2: it require much willpower for you to stay off all 349 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 2: those digital distractions in the morning. 350 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 1: I'm not a big believer in willpower. I think when 351 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: you start having to use willpower, you're already losing the game. 352 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 1: What I do is is reconstruct the environment. So for instance, 353 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: as I said, I don't bring my phone in the 354 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 1: office with me, so I can't check my phone. I 355 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: can't check my text messages or anything like that. And 356 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 1: I literally do not open up any of my email 357 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 1: program any of my email program. I have two computers 358 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: in my office. I don't email open up the email program. 359 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 1: I'm either computer in my office. I just don't open it. 360 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,360 Speaker 1: And you know, I guess for the first few days, 361 00:18:58,400 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: I get to be, you know, maybe a little bit 362 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: if and twitchy about opening it up, but after that 363 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: it just seems normal. So again, to me, the key 364 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: is constructing the environment in a way to eliminate distractions. 365 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: And so that's both the physical environment but also the 366 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: temporal environment. So if I come in and the environment 367 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: doesn't have any distractions, and I'm doing it at the 368 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: right time of day, then I have a fighting chance 369 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:28,360 Speaker 1: to get some writing done, and. 370 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 3: Then I'm I. 371 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: Other people are different, but I am very I rely 372 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: a lot on momentum, and so for me, if I 373 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: do something, if I do that on day one, and 374 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 1: then day two and then day three, I get into 375 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: this rhythm where each day becomes slightly easier because I've 376 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:54,120 Speaker 1: done something the day before. I'm not one of those 377 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 1: you know, there are writers out there who I see. 378 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: There are a couple of writers he year in the 379 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: United States who are also TV presenters, and two of 380 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:09,959 Speaker 1: them who I'm thinking of, I don't I don't want 381 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: to say the names because I don't want to. I 382 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:13,479 Speaker 1: actually admire what they're doing, but I don't want to 383 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: be disrespectful. Is that they will during the commercial breaks 384 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: write their newspaper column on their phone, just like, oh, 385 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: two minutes and that let's go to commercial. And then there's 386 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 1: too many commercial break and then they'll they'll write a 387 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: few sentences or paragraph on their newspaper column and then oh. 388 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 3: We're back. I could never do anything like that. 389 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: Or there's another there's another fellow who very accomplished author, 390 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: very smart guy who is a he's a physician. There 391 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: are a lot of physician writers out there, but you 392 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: know these physicians who, oh, I'm going to write. I 393 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 1: always write a few paragraphs in between surgeries. 394 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 3: That's not me. 395 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 2: Wow, that's yeah, that's not me. Ei. How do you 396 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 2: use the other two sections of your day? 397 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: I use the early to mid afternoon typically for. 398 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 3: Answering email and putting. 399 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,479 Speaker 1: I'm a big I have a lot of files, paper files, 400 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: and like filing stuff away and oh I need to 401 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: scan this thing and put it into drop that kind 402 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: of stuff that doesn't require heavy load. And then during 403 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: their cover period, which is basically like the mid to 404 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 1: late afternoon and early evening, I generally do interviews. So 405 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: interviews like this one are also even interviews when I 406 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: am asking questions. So that period of the day, So 407 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: the peak again for most of us early in the day, 408 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 1: that's when we're most vigilant. We should be doing our 409 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: heads down work the trough early to mid afternoon. That 410 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: is a really bad time of day. Our mental performance, 411 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: cognitive skills are way down, and so I do my 412 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: administrative stuff then and then when I come out of 413 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: the trough, you know, around whenever three o'clock, three thirty 414 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 1: four o'clock in the afternoon. I tend to do interviews 415 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: like this or things that require not necessarily be lockdown 416 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: and vigilant, but just to be open to possibility, open 417 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: to ideas, a little bit more mentally loose. 418 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 2: And how do you manage your emails? Like I imagine you 419 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 2: must be inundebted with them? And I remember, yeah, okay, 420 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 2: well look I remember when I first reached out to you, 421 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 2: which was many months ago, there was almost like this 422 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 2: this gatekeeper software that you had in place. Can you 423 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 2: talk about that? 424 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 3: Yes, I do, I use that. 425 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I did that because I was just getting so 426 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 1: many emails and I was also getting a lot of 427 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: spam as well on certain email addresses that were public, 428 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 1: and so so I just used a program called short Whale. 429 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: And what that is is essential. It's just like a form, 430 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: and so it says who are you and what's the 431 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 1: topic and how quickly do you need a response, and 432 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 1: then gives people a short, short, short amount of. 433 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 3: Room to make to say what they want. 434 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 1: And I find that at I find that as a 435 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: pretty effective, pretty effective system for organizing the emails that 436 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: come in, and also just forcing people to be brief. 437 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:21,400 Speaker 3: What I don't like. 438 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:26,880 Speaker 1: Is getting a one thousand word email from someone whom 439 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,640 Speaker 1: I've never heard of before. It's very unlikely that I'm 440 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: going to read that carefully. But if somebody, if a 441 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: reader says, if a reader says, hey, I read your 442 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: book whatever, and I have one question. Here it is, 443 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: and the email is two short paragraphs or three four sentences, yeah, 444 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: I'm going to try to answer that. But if someone 445 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: sends me an email saying someone says me in the 446 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: email saying I've never read any of your books, but 447 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: here's my life story in fifteen hundred words, and can 448 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 1: we meet to have coffee, I'm probably going to say no. 449 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 2: I want to get into that actually, like because I 450 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 2: imagine a lot of the emails that you receive a 451 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 2: request for your time. And how do you like, aside 452 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 2: from the obvious, like, how do you decide what to 453 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 2: say yes to and what to say no to, particularly 454 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 2: for those opportunities that are perhaps not black and white. 455 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:20,439 Speaker 3: That's another really great question. 456 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: And I don't really have a good way to do that, 457 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: and I've changed over the years, and I think it's 458 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 1: an important question for creators and artists to ask, and 459 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,679 Speaker 1: I can argue both sides of it. It's at one point, 460 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 1: at some point, it's certain moments in one's working life, 461 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,679 Speaker 1: it's really advantageous say yes to everything, because especially if 462 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: you're not that you know, if you're just starting out 463 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 1: or you know, you're trying to get your ideas out there, 464 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: in some ways, the default answer should be yes. I 465 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: think that when you're actually in the act of creating 466 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 1: something or or a little bit more established, I think 467 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 1: in some ways the default answer should be no. And 468 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: so what I've seen over the years is that, especially now, 469 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: because it's so distracting and there's so much stuff coming in, 470 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 1: is the default answer is generally going to be no. 471 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 1: Someone has to overcome the default that is a no. 472 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 2: Do you remember or I guess, like, how do you 473 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 2: know when when you've reached that tipping point when you 474 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 2: should change your default from yes to no. 475 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 3: You don't. You don't. 476 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 1: It's a great question, And you know, there's certain moments 477 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:32,159 Speaker 1: even in the there isn't a systematic that I know of, 478 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: a systematic way too. There isn't a systematic way to 479 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: do that, and you know, and you got to do 480 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 1: what feels right and authentic to you as an individual 481 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: as well. There's some people who love saying yes to 482 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff and who love having lots of 483 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: things going on. Then there are people like me who 484 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 1: can't multitask, who don't like working on lots of parallel projects, 485 00:25:55,600 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: who are you know, much more narrow in the way 486 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:03,360 Speaker 1: that they approach things. 487 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 2: Do you have a strategy for saying no politely that 488 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 2: you've developed over the years. 489 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 3: I do, you know, because cause again it's like you know, 490 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 3: people aren't trying to be route. 491 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: And what I will do is I will try very 492 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 1: hard to answer questions about the books from readers. I 493 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: really do try to answer all of those. I mean, 494 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 1: I honestly don't do it immediately, but I will often 495 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 1: organize them into batches and just sit down for you know, 496 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: an hour or two and answer thirty or forty or 497 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 1: fifty or sixty or one hundred emails from readers asking 498 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: questions or things like that. 499 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 3: So I try to do that. 500 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 1: For people who want something else, I just try to 501 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: be polite and say, you know, basically what I said 502 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: to you, which is that I'm terrible at doing two 503 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: things at one time. I'm a terrible multitasker. I'm terrible 504 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: at having parallel products going on, and right now I'm 505 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: trying to focus on one or two key projects. So 506 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: unfortunately I have to say no to most things. But 507 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: thanks for contacting me. And you know, I just you know, 508 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: and like, you know, I just hope that you know 509 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: the book that you're writing, or the film that you're making, 510 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: or this album you're producing or whatever goes really well. 511 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. 512 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 2: Nice. I want to talk about keynote speeches, because I 513 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 2: imagine that how a lot of listeners would know you 514 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 2: is through your very famous Ted talk, which I think 515 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 2: has received something like over twenty million views. And I 516 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 2: want to know, like, what's your process for translating a 517 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 2: book into a speech? 518 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, another great question. Well, here's the thing. 519 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 1: The the a book is going to have so much 520 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: more material in it, well, I mean, a good book. 521 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,160 Speaker 1: It's just not everybody abised by this, but a book 522 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: should and ideally have significantly more material than you could 523 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: even begin to present in say a half an hour talk. 524 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,640 Speaker 1: And so I think the key is to figure out, 525 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 1: think about what the audience is and what's the best 526 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: half hour set of material for them, and you know, 527 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 1: the way you talk about something in front of a 528 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,719 Speaker 1: group and the way that you actually write it are 529 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 1: going to be somewhat different. 530 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:17,640 Speaker 3: And so. 531 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: You know, I generally will talk about it. You maybe 532 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: do it like a short talk to a very very 533 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: very very very small group of people, like literally around 534 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: the table. Do that a few times and see what 535 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 1: to see how people react, and then maybe do some 536 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: things that are for very small audiences of you know, 537 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: let's say fifteen people or something like that, just to 538 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: see how people react, sort of like putting out a 539 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: stage production. You go off off Broadway, then you go 540 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: off Broadway, and you get it right until you go 541 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: to Broadway. 542 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, and where do you start, Like when you're sitting 543 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 2: down constructing the first draft of a like are you 544 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 2: looking through the book going what are the most impactful 545 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,719 Speaker 2: points I can make? Or like what's the overall idea? 546 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 2: Like where's that starting point? 547 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: I actually start with the audience and so and think 548 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: about trying to think about as much as possible from 549 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: the audience's perspective. So if you think about, you know, okay, 550 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: so you know, here these folks and they're going to 551 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: be sitting there for half an hour they're imprisoned there 552 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: having to listen to me. What is going to be 553 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: is going to what is going to be entertaining for them, 554 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: engaging for them, interesting to them, and what among all 555 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: of this is going to make them say, you know, 556 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: because what I want is at the end of that 557 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 1: half hour to say, Hey, I'm glad I spent that 558 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: half hour listening to this guy, rather than checking my email, 559 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: rather than hanging out with my spouse, rather than taking 560 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 1: care of my kids, rather than going to the gym. 561 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: That was a good use of a half hour. And 562 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: so it's going to vary from audience to audience. And 563 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: so I always start with the audience. 564 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 2: And what question it's like would you ask yourself when 565 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 2: when you're kind of unpacking the audience in preparation for 566 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 2: designing a presentation, you know, one. 567 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 1: Thing would be out of all the material out of 568 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: all the materials that I have, what are the two 569 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: or three things that this that this particular audience might 570 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: might react to saying oh hm, I never knew of that. 571 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 3: I never thought of it that way. 572 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: And then what are some takeaways that would be most 573 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: useful to this particular audience. So if it's an audience 574 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: of doctors, it might have it, it's obviously going to 575 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 1: have a different takeaway than if it's an audience of 576 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 1: consumer package good marketers or high school principles or. 577 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 3: You know, military officers. 578 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 2: M yeah, that makes sense, makes sense. And now, like 579 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 2: in the last few minutes that we've got, I want 580 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 2: to briefly touch on what are some of the things 581 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 2: that you're consuming, because I think it can be so 582 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 2: hard for the average person to know, like what should 583 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 2: they spend their time listening to, reading and so forth, 584 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 2: and and I know I listened to the kind of 585 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 2: what it was that a secret podcast that you released 586 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 2: to your subscribers actually just yesterday, which had some great recommendations. 587 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 2: But I'd love to delve into some different things that 588 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 2: perhaps you didn't mention. So I'd love to know podcasts. 589 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 2: So you're a big podcast consumer, and if so, what 590 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 2: are some of the ones that you listen to regularly. 591 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: I am actually not a huge podcast consumer. Part of 592 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: that is that I think one reason for that is 593 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: that I don't commute in a car, so I think 594 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: that's where a lot of people listen to their podcasts, 595 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: and I tend to be interested in episodes rather than 596 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: in a particular show, So I will rely on recommendation. 597 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: That's one of where I rely on recommendations from people. 598 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: There are a few that I there are a few 599 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: that I do look at, like there's a here in 600 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: the States. There's a national public radio podcast called Hidden 601 00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: Brain that I listened to a lot. 602 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 3: There is The New. 603 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: York Times has a podcast called The Daily that I. 604 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 3: Listened to a lot. But I'm really focused on episodes. 605 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: And you know, people recommending episodes to me rather than 606 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: religiously listening to a single show. 607 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 3: HM. 608 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 2: That's a really interesting way I've approaching it and thinking 609 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 2: about twenty nineteen. What was the best book that you 610 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 2: read last year? 611 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 3: Huh? 612 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: I read a lot of good books last year. I 613 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: mean on the nonfiction side. Two of the best books 614 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 1: that I've read. One of them was called The Art 615 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: of Gathering by Pria Parker, and it's a book about 616 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: gatherings and how everything from corporate off sites to dinners 617 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: with friends, to having people over to your house to 618 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: whatever parties or whatever. And she has this really fascinating 619 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: way of thinking about how to be much more intentional 620 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 1: about gatherings. What's the purpose of gatherings? Why it's important 621 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: not to be a chill host at the gatherings, why 622 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: you should exclude people, and it just made me rethink alike. 623 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: Even so, for instance, tonight, my family is having another 624 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 1: family over for dinner, and I'm thinking about that book 625 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: about Okay, how can we make this a gathering that 626 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 1: is meaningful to everybody. Another book that I loved was 627 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 1: called Rule Makers Rule Breakers by Michelle Gelfand, who is 628 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: a cultural psychologist at the University of Maryland, and it's 629 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 1: about really about her whole life's work on what she 630 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: calls tight cultures and loose cultures. Tight cultures our cultures 631 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: with lots of rules, pretty black and white. Loose cultures 632 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: are cultures without so many rules, a little bit more gray. 633 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: And it turns out that this deep structure of loose 634 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: and tight explain I means many, many, many things, from 635 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 1: national differences, to class differences, to different parenting styles, et cetera, 636 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 1: et cetera. So those are two. But there's so many 637 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: good books that come out each year, so many good 638 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: books that come out each year, that it's hard to 639 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 1: keep up. 640 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 2: Out of interest. How do you decide which books that 641 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:26,760 Speaker 2: you will read and won't read? 642 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: H I really don't have a systematic way of doing that. 643 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 1: I have these giant piles, and some of it depends 644 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 1: on some of it depends on my mood, what I 645 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: feel like doing at that particular moment. So the last 646 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 1: book I finished was a book called I read a 647 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: fair amount of fiction too. 648 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 3: I don't read only non fiction. I read a fair 649 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 3: amount of fiction. 650 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 1: And the last book I literally finished it last night 651 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,799 Speaker 1: as we're talking here, is called It's a Book Amazingly 652 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 1: Enough by James Patterson, who sold fourteen gazillion books, and 653 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,800 Speaker 1: Bill Clinton, the former US president, called The President is Missing. 654 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:04,439 Speaker 3: It's a thriller. Wow. 655 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,839 Speaker 1: And I think I picked that. I picked up that 656 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: book because I think I was going on like a 657 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,760 Speaker 1: short vacation and I wanted something that was totally easy 658 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,400 Speaker 1: and escapist. But I didn't get to it then, and 659 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 1: then I just I think I picked it up one 660 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 1: night when I couldn't sleep and wanted something that was 661 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: an easy read, and so I finally finished it last night. 662 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 2: It wasn't very good, okay, good noted two quick final questions. So, again, 663 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 2: going back to the acknowledgment section of the book, you 664 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:44,800 Speaker 2: thanked your wife in when for reading your books out loud, 665 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 2: and I was so curious, why do you do that? 666 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 2: Why do you go through that process? 667 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: Well, part of it is that I'm crazy and insane 668 00:35:54,719 --> 00:36:04,720 Speaker 1: and aintal retena, But I find that reading out loud 669 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:11,839 Speaker 1: helps me immensely in writing better. So nearly everything I 670 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 1: write of significance, So you know, books or articles I 671 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 1: will read out loud because to me, it's just a 672 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 1: test of does it sound right? You know, are there 673 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,760 Speaker 1: words in there that are clunkers? Is it as clear 674 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 1: and gleaming as it could possibly be. At the same time, though, 675 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: I like to hear the work read to me, and 676 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,439 Speaker 1: there's only one person in the world who is willing 677 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 1: to sit in a chair and read me my work, 678 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,359 Speaker 1: and that is my wife. And I learn a lot 679 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 1: that way too, so hearing putting my hearing it So again, 680 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: it's you know, people have different ways of doing things. 681 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 1: I just sett it on a way that works, that 682 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 1: works for me. But for me, reading out loud and 683 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,800 Speaker 1: hearing the work read out loud is for better. It 684 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 1: is a significant part of my editing process. It's very 685 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 1: time consuming, it's very laborious, but that's how I do things. 686 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,959 Speaker 2: Awesome and Finally, Dan, how can people find out more 687 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:17,320 Speaker 2: about you and your work? 688 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 1: They can go to my website which is www. Danpink 689 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: dapnk dot com. And I've got an email newsletter, all 690 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,320 Speaker 1: kinds of groovy stuff in the resource sections, some videos, 691 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 1: all kinds of great stuff off at the lowlow price 692 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:35,720 Speaker 1: of free. 693 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 2: Fantastic and I must say I love your newsletter and 694 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 2: I will link to all that in the show notes. So, Dan, 695 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,399 Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming on the show. It's 696 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,360 Speaker 2: just been an absolute privilege to hear about how you work. 697 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:47,480 Speaker 3: Thanks a lot. 698 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 1: It's a pleasure to have you to get your intriguing questions. 699 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 1: I'm glad I did this at the right time of day. 700 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 2: Hello. There, that is it for today's show. I hope 701 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 2: you enjoyed my chat with Dan Pink and got some 702 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:05,719 Speaker 2: useful insights and tips. And as always, please leave a 703 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,319 Speaker 2: review if you're enjoying how I work, and please tell 704 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:13,360 Speaker 2: someone about it. I know that most podcasts get found, 705 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 2: and certainly I discover podcast through hearing about it from others. 706 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,319 Speaker 2: So if you've been enjoying the show, why not tell 707 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 2: someone about it today who you think could benefit. And lastly, 708 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,400 Speaker 2: if you haven't already subscribed to How I Work. Just 709 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 2: hit the subscribe button, and that way you'll be alerted 710 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,359 Speaker 2: whenever a new episode drops. That's it for today, I'll 711 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 2: see you next time.