1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: Already and this is this is the Daily h this 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: is the Daily ohs oh, now it makes sense. Good morning, 3 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Monday, the second 4 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 1: of February. I'm Elliott Lourrie. 5 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 2: I'm Emma Gillespie. 6 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: Over the past decade, Ozzie, reading rates have been in decline, 7 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: with more and more young people saying they don't read 8 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: for pleasure. Ever, that is until very recently, with a 9 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: booming interests and novels about sex and love showing signs 10 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: that the tide may just be turning. In today's deep Dive, 11 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: I'm speaking to an expert to help as unpack what's 12 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: really going on why romance novels are capturing hearts, inspiring 13 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 1: new readers, and creating a lifeline for a generation struggling 14 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: to pick up a book. 15 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 2: Elliott, you have such a fun interview for us today 16 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 2: about sex and romance books. I think it's something people 17 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 2: will really connect with, this idea of being disconnected from 18 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 2: reading and wanting kind of a way back in. Before 19 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 2: we jump into that chat, though, do you want to 20 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 2: just walk us through why you were curious about looking 21 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 2: into this kind of a topic in the first place. 22 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: Yes, So, we deep dive into this topic didn't actually 23 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: start with a book. It started with the TV show 24 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: Heated Rivalry. 25 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 3: Oh, I've heard of it. 26 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: I'm sure you have. Before we go any further, Emma, 27 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: do you want to give us the rundown of what 28 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: Heated Rivalry is about as our culture correspondents, Yes. 29 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 2: Of course. Heated Rivalry, in case you've been living under 30 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 2: a rock, is a HBO Max series about a beautiful, 31 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 2: budding romance between two rivals. It's the gay Hockey Show 32 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 2: if you've referred to as that, but it follows this 33 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 2: story of Shane Hollander Ilia Rosanov, the two main characters, 34 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 2: their enemies on the ice and lovers of it. 35 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: And the show is actually based on a book, which 36 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: is why are we talking about books today. It's a 37 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: series called Game Changes by the author of Michel Read 38 00:01:56,040 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: and that's really crucially important context for today's podcast. Basically, 39 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: what happened was I was watching the finale of the 40 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: show with my housemate and at the end of it 41 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: he turned to me and he said, I think I'm 42 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 1: going to read a book. And now this is a 43 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: man who hasn't picked up a book probably in his 44 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 1: adult life. I think, yeah, and it was really motivating 45 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: to see him get eager to delve into a story. 46 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 2: Further, so, he was specifically motivated to read the Heated 47 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 2: Rivalry books the Game Changes series because of how much 48 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 2: he connected with. 49 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: The show exactly exactly. And when I brought this anecdote 50 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: to the office, everyone was really interested because it got 51 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: us talking about how many of our friends have sort of, 52 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: you know, redeveloped this passion for reading three books that 53 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: are maybe a little bit spicy, a little bit sexy, 54 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 1: and a little bit romantic, and with Heated Rivalry in particular. 55 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: That's been reflected in the broader culture, you know, across Australia. 56 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: It's actually impossible to buy the books at the moment 57 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: because they're sold out everywhere. The publisher did not anticipate 58 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 1: the popularity that would come from the show. 59 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and these books have been around for a little while, 60 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 2: but I have to say I haven't seen this kind 61 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:59,239 Speaker 2: of viral obsession with anything in the book world since 62 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 2: maybe like Twilight. I can't remember a time when we 63 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 2: were so collectively united as a culture to be this 64 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 2: excited about books, which is kind of sad, honestly, because 65 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 2: Twilight was a pretty long time ago, but TikTok, specifically 66 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 2: book talk has kind of changed things, right. 67 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. 68 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 3: So. 69 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but a lot of my 70 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: friends have been picking up books like the Court of 71 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,679 Speaker 1: Thorn and Roses series. Those have a very similar sort 72 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: of topic to the hit of Rivalry books in that 73 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: they're centered around these steamy romances. Now that has led 74 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: me to going out talking to some booksellers and eventually 75 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: speaking to Anna from Australia Reads. Who is who I'm 76 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: talking to today? 77 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 2: What do we need to know about Anna? 78 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: So? Anna works for Australia Reads. They are a big 79 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: nonprofit initiative that's funded by the government as well as 80 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: some other nonprofits, and they're kind of aimed at increasing 81 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: reading rates across the country. But as part of their 82 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: purview they also kind of look into and track how 83 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: ouzsies are reading, which is why I reach out to 84 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: them now. Anna actually heads up that operation. She's also 85 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: an avid book reader and advocate for reading in Australia 86 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: and she joins us. Now, Anna, welcome to the Daily Odds. 87 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 3: It's great to be here, Elliott. Thank you. 88 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: So today we're going to be talking about all things 89 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 1: roments fiction and hated rivalry in particular. But before you 90 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: get into it, I do want to take a step back. 91 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 1: What do we know about Ouzzie reading habits in this 92 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: day and age. 93 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 3: Broadly speaking, some people are reading lots, so we've got 94 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 3: millions of Australians reading semi regular which is a really 95 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 3: great thing. But we also have an increasing number of 96 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 3: Australians who are not reading at all, an increasing number 97 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:40,479 Speaker 3: who are reading less often than they were, and they're 98 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 3: becoming pretty infrequent, so that's quite worrying for us. So 99 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 3: are really committed readers who are reading all the time 100 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 3: are probably actually reading more. The sales suggest that they're 101 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 3: certainly buying more books they're really comfortable. But there's a 102 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 3: shrinking number of those people. So we're really looking at 103 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 3: how we can encourage more people to come back to 104 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 3: books and stay in that bookish environment that millions of 105 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 3: people enjoy. And the nice, hopeful bit of the research 106 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 3: shows us that most Australians want to read more. We 107 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 3: just we struggle in our daily lives to necessarily find 108 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,840 Speaker 3: the time, to have the confidence and to find something 109 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 3: that we love. And that's why this upsurge in the 110 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 3: kind of mainstream popularity of all kinds of different genre fiction, 111 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 3: including romance, is so heartening and lovely because it means 112 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 3: people are finding what they love, and you enjoy something, 113 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 3: you do more of it. So that's what we're very 114 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 3: happy about this trend. 115 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: And just to your point about that large cohort that's 116 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: sort of disengaging from reading, what do we know about 117 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: why that might be happening. 118 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, we've done quite a detailed study and we've done 119 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 3: that with behavioral scientists from Monash. So something we've heard 120 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 3: for a long time is I just don't have time. 121 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 3: Now that's not actually the case, because we have quite 122 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 3: a lot of leisure time in modern society. It's just 123 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 3: looks different. It's super fragmented, it's highly distractable. It's a 124 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 3: couple of minutes here and there, or it's what we 125 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:08,919 Speaker 3: think is a couple of minutes. So it's our perception 126 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 3: that I've only got two minutes, I'll just look at 127 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,679 Speaker 3: something on my phone. Actually twelve twenty minutes go past, 128 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 3: so you did actually have a longer block of time 129 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 3: than you thought. So what we've done is look behind 130 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 3: that into the barriers, and we've found that there are 131 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 3: definitely challenges about how people make a regular habit that 132 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 3: works for them. So for some people, reading before bed 133 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 3: is perfect, and there's beautiful research that shows us that 134 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 3: you sleep better if you're a regular reader, and actually 135 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 3: extends your life because you have these lovely health benefits 136 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 3: and sleep benefits. So it's great if you're a night 137 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 3: owl who is comfortable reading before bed. For other people, 138 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 3: me if the book falls on my face and hits 139 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 3: me in the face, so it's not a great time 140 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 3: for me. It's great time for families to have that 141 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 3: bedtime routine to read together older than you would think, 142 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 3: so young people up to the age of seventeen, most 143 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 3: of them, almost ninety percent of them, wish their family 144 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 3: their parents still read with them because it's a really 145 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 3: special moment, which is both a really sweet and slightly 146 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 3: heartbreaking statistic, because they want more of it, more of 147 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 3: that connection, and parents generally stop when children can read 148 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 3: for themselves, so about age seven that family reading stops 149 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 3: being a general practice. So it's something we'd like to 150 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 3: see more of that kind of routine. Whereas if reading 151 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 3: before bed isn't for you, can you make a point 152 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 3: in your schedule that it becomes routine, it becomes a 153 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 3: habit that you make space for yourself, whether that's over 154 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 3: the morning coffee, you're reading a book, maybe you go 155 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 3: out for a walk and you listen to an audiobook. 156 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 3: Maybe you're commuting and you've got an audiobook on road. 157 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 3: Trips with family are great for that. We've got a 158 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 3: really broad definition of reading and listening to a book 159 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 3: absolutely counts. 160 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: So in the middle there you mentioned young people. That's 161 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: a large part of our cohort of listeners here at 162 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: the Daily Odds. What do we know about how young 163 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: people are engaging with reading and are we seeing an 164 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: increase or decrease. 165 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 3: Decrease Unfortunately, back in twenty seventeen, about twenty two percent 166 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 3: of young people didn't read at all. That's up to 167 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 3: twenty nine percent now of Australian young adults are teenagers 168 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 3: in particular are not reading at all and that includes 169 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 3: listening to a book, and they haven't read or listened 170 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 3: to a book for through choice for the last twelve months. 171 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 3: About one in three primary school children can't read proficiently. 172 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 3: That's a grantin institute, a report that's going to cost 173 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 3: the economy forty billion dollars over the life cycle of 174 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 3: those young people who can't read properly. But that actually 175 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 3: just occurs to a social challenge because then when you 176 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 3: grow up and you're a teenager, when you're getting you've 177 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 3: left school, you've left UNI, books aren't a regular part 178 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 3: of your daily life. That pattern perpetuates. So we want 179 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 3: to kind of see what we can do to shift 180 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 3: those perceptions. So we've seen a decrease in young people reading, 181 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 3: but we have seen an increase in excitement about different genres, 182 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 3: which is a great thing. So romance, science fiction, crime 183 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,559 Speaker 3: is ever popular, and then formats, audiobooks and graphic novels 184 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 3: both incredibly popular with younger people. So I think there's hope. 185 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 3: We've just got to put the right books in front 186 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 3: in front of people and think about how we change 187 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 3: the conversation about how we talk about books to make 188 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 3: it social and fun and really normal. And I actually 189 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 3: think social media has done some wonderful things to help 190 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 3: people talk about books differently in younger age groups. Yeah. 191 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: I was actually just reading some stats that said that 192 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,319 Speaker 1: fiction sales up something like fifty percent in Australia, and 193 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: I got an email from Amazon this morning that said 194 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: it was their top genre over on Kindle last year. 195 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,079 Speaker 1: Why do you think people are so interested in that category, 196 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:44,559 Speaker 1: in that genre right now. 197 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 3: Well, it's been a growth genre for a couple of 198 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 3: years since kind of the COVID days. I think there's 199 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 3: a combination of things going on. One what has previously 200 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 3: been considered a niche entertainment or enjoyment. There are many 201 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 3: of those niche communities that have realized they aren't niche 202 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 3: through connection and the Internet, that all around the world 203 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 3: there are people just like them who really enjoy reading 204 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 3: romance and that that has allowed Digital culture has allowed 205 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 3: that to be a lot more visible, and that's a 206 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 3: great thing. Once something becomes more visible, you lead it 207 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 3: towards becoming what the behavioral scientists call a social norm. 208 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 3: So if you see other people talking about it, you 209 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 3: are much more likely to come clean yourself. You're like, 210 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 3: I like it too, or I'm going to try it 211 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 3: because you want to be part of what everyone else 212 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 3: is interested in talking about. And so it's reducing the shame, 213 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 3: so that mainstream visibility has shown that something is not niche. 214 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 3: These stories speak to who we are as humans, and 215 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 3: they're fun and you can talk to friends about them, 216 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 3: and those are the kind of components that people are 217 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 3: looking for, that social and human connection. They're looking for 218 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 3: fun and enjoyment. And I think off the back of 219 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 3: the COVID years, we were really looking for things that 220 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 3: could help our escapism as well, and I think we're 221 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 3: still seeing that wave ride through as the world goes 222 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 3: through challenging times. 223 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: We'll be right back with the rest of the interview 224 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: after a quick word from our sponsor. And to your 225 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:16,079 Speaker 1: point about digital visibility, I know that often on book Talk, 226 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: when I'm sort of scrolling on that platform, I almost 227 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: always see romance books cropping up and being recommended by creators. 228 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: There is that the type of stuff that you're talking about. 229 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 3: That's definitely part of it. Yeah, but that translates across 230 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,199 Speaker 3: like bigger platforms, so things like Goodreads you start to 231 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 3: see more appearance there. You start to then as a result, 232 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 3: see things creep up on the Amazon Kindle charts. You 233 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 3: see it creep into audible. Spotify, of course, have now 234 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,839 Speaker 3: made things much easier for people to access audiobook wise 235 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 3: by having audiobooks in their subscriptions. So I think what 236 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 3: the industry would call the discovery channels, the ways that 237 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 3: people are finding and seeing these are increasing. One of 238 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 3: the challenges for Australia is that a lot of the 239 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 3: time Tho's recommendations are American because that's who's in contry 240 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 3: role of the algorithm. So it's a little bit of well, 241 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 3: what do we do to surface those kinds of books 242 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 3: that are just as incredible and interesting and maybe reflect 243 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,559 Speaker 3: young people's lives in different countries and from different class backgrounds. 244 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 3: But I think that yes, those platforms like BookTalk, books 245 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 3: to Gram book to are definitely a part of that picture. 246 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 3: But then they filter through to these bigger platforms, which 247 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 3: then changes into the retail So like bookshop layouts have 248 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:33,079 Speaker 3: changed because of BookTok so some of them have gone 249 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 3: for the displays right there. You come in the door. 250 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 3: You're not used to going to bookshops. Bookshops is something 251 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 3: your mum does not you. But you come in and 252 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 3: there's your booktop books. You don't have to ferre it 253 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 3: through the store. So it's been quite fun in the 254 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 3: way that that digital culture that is often a youth 255 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 3: voice is talking about these books. They're talking about this genre, 256 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 3: they're talking about it openly with fun and not shame, 257 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 3: and that is changing the physical environment. They're also now 258 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 3: more romance bookstores. I live in Naram in Melbourne. I 259 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 3: don't know if you know that there's a new bookshop 260 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:06,839 Speaker 3: in Brunswick West called The Forbidden Chapter that is all 261 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 3: the boat spicy romance and they have an event space 262 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 3: and so you can do book launches, you can go 263 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 3: and talk about these books as book clubs. So I 264 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 3: think I love the fact that like a lot of 265 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 3: these what were niche cultures like nerd culture and science 266 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 3: fiction and stuff, they are so mainstream and really celebrated. 267 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: I did now want to turn to headed ribrry have 268 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: you seen the show or read the books? 269 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 3: I haven't seen the show. I have begun the books. 270 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: So it was recently reported that it's borderline impossible to 271 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: get the books here in Australia, and I have actually 272 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: gone and spoken to some booksellers here in Sydney and 273 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 1: they said that they've had a really big range of 274 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: young people coming in and trying to buy the book, 275 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: obviously unsuccessfully. Why do you think it's resonating with that 276 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: audience in particular, it's human connection. 277 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 3: Like what I can tell is really going on in 278 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 3: these books is two young people working out their way 279 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,199 Speaker 3: in the world in a world that isn't necessarily accepting 280 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 3: of them. And I think that that is something that 281 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 3: young people are often looking for in fiction, is to 282 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 3: not feel alone and to feel and see different ways 283 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 3: of being in the world, and that those ways are 284 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 3: celebrated and valid and important. And so that connection amidst 285 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 3: all the steaminess that is in heated rivalry, what you've 286 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 3: got is a connection between two humans who are trying 287 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 3: to figure out how to be together and what it 288 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 3: means to be together, like what does a consensual, grown up, 289 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 3: sexy relationship, what is that? What does that look like? 290 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 3: And they want to see their own lives reflected, but 291 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 3: they also want to enjoy the escapism, like a romance is. 292 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 3: Romance has a lot to do with escapism, and so 293 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 3: I think there's a combination of things going on there 294 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 3: in these particular books. 295 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: A little anecdote for you is that my housemate, who 296 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: typically doesn't read at all, has actually been inspired to 297 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: get back into after watching the show. This is the 298 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: kind of common trend that we've seen over the last 299 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: couple of years, with romance books being popular with people 300 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: that might not typically read as well. What do you 301 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: think of that type of content being the way back 302 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: in Fantastic. 303 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 3: The reason people go to watch the thing and then 304 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 3: say I want to read the book is because they 305 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 3: know the book will be a deeper experience, Like millions 306 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 3: of us still love reading them. Yeah, sure, we're like, ah, 307 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 3: I want to find more time. We've got some barriers 308 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 3: to getting into it, but innately we know that it 309 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 3: will give us the deep experience because we have to concentrate, 310 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 3: which calms us down, and you get a depth of 311 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 3: perspective from different narrators that really puts you inside the 312 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 3: world in a way that other art representations can't quite 313 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 3: do because there's still somebody else's image or picture of 314 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 3: that world, Whereas when you're reading it for yourself, you 315 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 3: can project yourself onto it, like I can see myself 316 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 3: in this story. Now. I don't know about you, but 317 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 3: sometimes you see an adaptation of a book and that 318 00:15:57,720 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 3: that's not how they look, they don't sound like that, 319 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 3: and everybody gets very indignant because the way that I 320 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 3: have dreamt it, that's the right way, that's how that 321 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 3: story is. So I think books allow us to be 322 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 3: very personal and have a deeper, stronger connection to those stories. 323 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 3: So I love that your house mate is going to 324 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 3: go off and read a book. 325 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: We'll see if we can get them a copy first. 326 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: Now you mentioned there are a couple of really amazing 327 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: health benefits that come from reading. More generally, I'm curious 328 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: to know what role romance and sexual content has in 329 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: maybe educating younger readers, and you know, for parents, is 330 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: there an appropriate age for kids to start engaging with 331 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: that type of content. 332 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 3: I think it's about introducing young people to respectful, consensual 333 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 3: relationships early on in an age appropriate way, and then 334 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 3: ensuring that that you know, that content evolves with them 335 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 3: as that young person grows up. And the books are 336 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 3: there for the different ages, so everything from tiny people 337 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 3: right the way up to young adults and then we're 338 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 3: getting into the spicier content. There's such a range as 339 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 3: well of different style of books. Like for some people 340 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 3: they might want to read it might feel safer for 341 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,440 Speaker 3: young people to read about sex and relationships in say 342 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 3: a fantasy world, because fantasy is also a very popular 343 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 3: genre that continues to grow because you're at one remove, 344 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 3: so it can feel a little bit safer, whereas for 345 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 3: other young people they don't like the dragon stuff they 346 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:23,439 Speaker 3: want to know what that looks like in their high school, 347 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:25,120 Speaker 3: they want to know what that looks like in their 348 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 3: sports club. So lots lots of options out there, so 349 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 3: I think people can to some extent self select and 350 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 3: there are systems out there that can help you curate 351 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 3: and find the right type that you're ready for. Now. 352 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,120 Speaker 1: I did actually want to end by throwing it over 353 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 1: to you. If you had to recommend one book for 354 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 1: our audience to pick up, what would it be? 355 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 3: Oh, oh, that's mean. Well, if they're reading Heated Rivalry 356 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 3: and they're looking for something along those that type, then 357 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:58,400 Speaker 3: Darcy Green is an Australian author romance author, so afl 358 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 3: setting would be a book would be After the Siren, 359 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 3: So Darcy Green's After the Siren, or the tennis is 360 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,400 Speaker 3: on at the moment, so Abra Pressler's Love and other scores. 361 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,199 Speaker 3: So they're not quite a steamy as Heated Rivalry, but 362 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,400 Speaker 3: there's definitely a lot of great romance going on there. 363 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 3: So for Heated Rivalry fans, they are two good Aussie options. 364 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: Anna, that was such an interesting conversation and it's making 365 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,120 Speaker 1: me want to go and read right now. Thank you 366 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: so much for your time. And for joining us here 367 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: at the Daily Odds. 368 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 3: It's been a pleasure and happy reading. 369 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 2: Elliot, what a fascinating interview that was such a joy 370 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 2: to listen to. Thank you for bringing us that chat today. 371 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: Thanks em. 372 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 2: If you are curious, Heated Rivalry is on Hate Fomax. 373 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 2: Game Changes is a book you can't get in shops, 374 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 2: but you can probably still get it if you've got 375 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 2: a kindle. That's it for today's deep dive. We will 376 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 2: be back a little later on with your evening news headlines, 377 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 2: but until then, have a great day. 378 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Adunda 379 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: Bungelung Kalgotin woman from Gadigal Country. 380 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 3: The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on 381 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 3: the lands of the Gadigal people and pays respect to 382 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 3: all Aboriginal and Torrestrate island and nations. 383 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries, 384 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: both past and present.