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Speaker 1: Now we know. The Northern Territory government say it will

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Speaker 1: refer these stalled public service wage negotiations to the Fair

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Speaker 1: Work Commission after workers voted down the latest payoffer. The

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Speaker 1: proposed Northern Territory Public Service Enterprise Agreement would have delivered

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Speaker 1: our three percent annual pay rise over four years, compounding

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Speaker 1: to more than twelve percent, but the unions and the

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Speaker 1: workers rejected the deal, citing cost of living concerns and

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Speaker 1: a lack of trust in government priorities. Now the government

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Speaker 1: say they're disappointed, arguing the offer provides real wage growth

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Speaker 1: above Darwin CPI, which currently sits at one point six percent,

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Speaker 1: with the Minister Joe Hersey saying public sector wages already

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Speaker 1: account for forty one percent of the budget and blamed

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Speaker 1: labor for leaving the territory's finances in poor shape. Now

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Speaker 1: the matter is now going to go before Fair Work.

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Speaker 1: And joining us on the line is David Vilagus, the

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Speaker 1: Regional Secretary of the CPSU. Good morning to you, David,

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Speaker 1: Good morning Katie, Thanks so much for your time. Now, David,

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Speaker 1: what was the main reason that the public sector workers

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Speaker 1: voted against the three percent annual pay rise offer?

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Speaker 2: Well? O Katie, it's there's a lot of focus on

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Speaker 2: just the pay, but it's much bigger than that. You know,

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Speaker 2: we're talking about a number of really important conditions that

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Speaker 2: are being removed from the Enterprise Agreement, and for a

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Speaker 2: lot of our members, what the government is offering in

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Speaker 2: terms of pay just doesn't justify voting yes, right, But

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Speaker 2: in terms of the pay itself, I mean, look, we've

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Speaker 2: our members, as you know, they've been subjected to wage

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Speaker 2: freezers during periods where CPI was going through the roof.

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Speaker 2: We also know that it's just as a result of

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Speaker 2: those wage freezers, the NTPs is no longer competitive with

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Speaker 2: other jurisdictions. People are leaving in droves, and what we

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Speaker 2: also need to do, and this is one of those

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Speaker 2: key issues that all the unions agree on, and we

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Speaker 2: don't know whys agree on everything, ye, but if there's

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Speaker 2: one thing that all the unions are on the same

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Speaker 2: side about is that the attraction and retention issue in

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Speaker 2: the NTPs is really serious and needs to be addressed.

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Speaker 2: So what's currently on offer just isn't good enough.

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Speaker 1: So what are some of the conditions that you mentioned

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Speaker 1: just a moment ago, Because I know for a lot

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Speaker 1: of people listening if they're not a public you know,

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Speaker 1: if they're not a public service worker, they might be

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Speaker 1: listening thinking, come on, guys, you've been offered three percent

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Speaker 1: over the next few years. You know what conditions could

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Speaker 1: possibly be getting taken away from you that that's not

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Speaker 1: good enough.

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Speaker 2: Well, o, Katie, we've got really important redundancy protections in

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Speaker 2: the Enterprise Agreement. They're looking at scrapping that. The only reason,

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Speaker 2: the only justification they've provided for removing those important protections

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Speaker 2: is while it wasn't the years ago, So why do

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Speaker 2: we need it now? Right We've had a government that's

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Speaker 2: said until their base is blue that they're not going

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Speaker 2: to cut public service jobs. But then why remove important

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Speaker 2: redundancy protections? Why are you giving the Commissioner for Public

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Speaker 2: Employment more powers over their industrial entitlements? Right? But Katie,

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Speaker 2: the really serious issue is that we cannot afford to

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Speaker 2: continue down the path that we are on, and successive

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Speaker 2: governments aren't putting the emphasis on how important it is

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Speaker 2: to keep public servants in the Northern Territory because right

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Speaker 2: now we're constantly chasing our tails. Right now, we're doing

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Speaker 2: our best to get as many people as possible to

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Speaker 2: try and apply and they leave as soon as they

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Speaker 2: can because it's just not competitive. And the nt is

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Speaker 2: a very very complex jurisdiction. It's unlike any other jurisdiction

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Speaker 2: in the country, and you need to make it worthwhile

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Speaker 2: to people who are listening who aren't public servants. Every

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Speaker 2: single person in the Northern Territory has a vested interest

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Speaker 2: in the Northern Territory Public Service working and flourishing. Right,

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Speaker 2: Even the paying conditions for the NTPs set the standard

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Speaker 2: for everybody else, And all the unions will tell you

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Speaker 2: as soon as they're going to negotiations after the NTPs

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Speaker 2: has been settled, they'll go into an employment situation and

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Speaker 2: they'll say, well, we're only going to offer this because

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Speaker 2: the public service got this as well. Right, So every

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Speaker 2: single person, even their paying conditions, relies on the public service,

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Speaker 2: And of course every single person relies on the services.

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Speaker 2: How often aren't people I listen to your show, people

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Speaker 2: talking about, you know, the amount of time they have

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Speaker 2: to wait at the hospital, the amount of time it

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Speaker 2: takes to get a phone call answered by the police.

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Speaker 2: Do we want police doing that work? Do we want

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Speaker 2: the nurses doing the admin work? I mean, this is

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Speaker 2: the situation that we're in. This is what we're trying

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Speaker 2: to address, and successive governments have been ignoring it. They've

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Speaker 2: been throwing up their hands in the air and saying

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Speaker 2: we've done nothing and now we're all out of ideas.

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Speaker 1: David. With the redundancy change that you spoke about a moment,

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Speaker 1: are you concerned that what that may ultimately mean is

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Speaker 1: that you know that the government can can make people

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Speaker 1: redundant and sort of not have to answer questions to

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Speaker 1: that that people can be moved on or what's the

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Speaker 1: worry with that redundancy change?

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Speaker 2: Right now, we have strong provisions in the Enterprise Agreement

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Speaker 2: that gives public servants extra protections around redundancy. Basically, you

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Speaker 2: have the same redundancy protections that most Australians have, and

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Speaker 2: then they have an extra protection that says we will

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Speaker 2: put you on a register that allows you to continue

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Speaker 2: working in the public service because again there's always work

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Speaker 2: to do and most government departments are running on a

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Speaker 2: rag with fumes at the moment. We will allow you

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Speaker 2: to continue to work and both you can seek other

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Speaker 2: employment and will continue to try and find you other

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Speaker 2: employment in the NTPs YEP right, and they want to

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Speaker 2: remove that and that's a serious issue. So even at

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Speaker 2: the bargaining tape where OCPS said again the commissioner, just

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Speaker 2: like the government, repeating the same phrases over and over again,

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Speaker 2: that oh, no, we're committed to maintaining jobs and everything else.

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Speaker 2: And we asked the questions a very simple question, does

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Speaker 2: this make it easier to cut jobs? The answer was yes.

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Speaker 2: They couldn't answer any other way. But it's really hard

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Speaker 2: not to draw the lines between the dots here, and

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Speaker 2: we're trying to protect the public servers in the event

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Speaker 2: that this happens, because we can't afford to lose any

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Speaker 2: more public servants than we are at the moment now.

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Speaker 1: In terms of this now going to Fair Work, are

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Speaker 1: you worried that fair Work could review this and the

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Speaker 1: offer may end up worse than the one that's on

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Speaker 1: the table right now.

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Speaker 2: No, So, just by way of background, came the vote

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Speaker 2: was called on Wednesday morning. The government chucked the tantrum

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Speaker 2: and sent out a media release before it contacted any

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Speaker 2: of the unions to say we're going to a fair

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Speaker 2: work We received an application under Section two forty of

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Speaker 2: the Fair Work Act late Friday evening outlining all of

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Speaker 2: their concerns at the bart with with bargaining negotiations. But

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Speaker 2: what they've applied for under this provision of the Fair

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Speaker 2: Work app is available to anybody at the table at

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Speaker 2: any time. It's to seek the assistance of the Fair

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Speaker 2: Work Commission in the relation to any dispute that arises

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Speaker 2: between the parties. Now, the unions haven't done this because

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Speaker 2: in our expit, well, firstly because we didn't want to

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Speaker 2: delay it because people, just like the government, we wanted

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Speaker 2: an outcome.

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Speaker 1: But I seem to have lost you there, David. Are

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Speaker 1: you able to hear me? You just cut out for a.

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Speaker 2: Mind, I can hear you. I was just going to

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Speaker 2: say that this process doesn't actually allow the Fair Work

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Speaker 2: Commission to make any determination. It's solely there to assist

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Speaker 2: the parties in reaching an outcome. So there's no enforcement

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Speaker 2: behind this. This is the government has just come out

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Speaker 2: to make another announceable to say we're going hard on

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Speaker 2: the unions because that's that's you know, potentially that's what

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Speaker 2: their base wants. I don't know, but from an industrial perspective,

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Speaker 2: the unions haven't done this because in our experience, if

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Speaker 2: we had applied for something like this, after the first vote,

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Speaker 2: when the nominal expiry date for the enterprise agreement was

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Speaker 2: a month and a half ago, their Work Commission would

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Speaker 2: look at us and say, get real, go back to

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Speaker 2: the bargaining table.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Right, So from your perspective now at this point

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Speaker 1: in time, you know where to from here? Do you

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Speaker 1: feel as are you're going to be able to get

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Speaker 1: back to the bargaining table? And if the government were

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Speaker 1: to come back and go, all right, it's remaining at

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Speaker 1: three percent, but we're going to make the changes or

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Speaker 1: we're not going to, you know, to enforce these changes

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Speaker 1: around redundancy. Would the union and would members be more

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Speaker 1: open do you think to this deal?

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Speaker 2: Well, Katie, they've kind of show themselves in the food

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Speaker 2: because we've all been working under the same wages policy.

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Speaker 2: So who's we The CPSU, the Police Union. You've had

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Speaker 2: Nathanson on the show a number of times as well,

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Speaker 2: and I've spoken to nathansin about it, and they did

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Speaker 2: exactly the same thing to the police union. The Police

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Speaker 2: Union voted down their enterprise agreement three times, and Joe

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Speaker 2: Hursey said the same thing, We're going to reduce the

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Speaker 2: actual payoffer. We're going to take you to the police

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Speaker 2: version of the Fair Work Commission right, and then offered

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Speaker 2: them a pay increase well above the wages policy without

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Speaker 2: having to provide a single efficiency. Now, how can any

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Speaker 2: public servant across the NTPs look at that and say?

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Speaker 2: How is that fair? How is that there? When you

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Speaker 2: have youth justice officers on the frontline? How is that there?

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Speaker 2: When you have cheap correctional officers on the frontline? How

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Speaker 2: is that feel when you have people in emergency department?

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Speaker 2: How is that there? For any of these people across

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Speaker 2: the NTPs. And we talk about the border public and

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Speaker 2: the implications for them, the border public is the public

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Speaker 2: service we're in the where you know, one in six

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Speaker 2: workers come under this agreement alone, let alone all the

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Speaker 2: other enterprise agreements and all the other workplaces that are

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Speaker 2: affected by this. So what we need is genuine negotiation.

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Speaker 2: What we need is just to go back to the

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Speaker 2: table and to actually try and address in outcome, because

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Speaker 2: so far all we got is the six months us

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Speaker 2: raising every single point and going through all the outcomes

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Speaker 2: and the reasons why we need these things and why

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Speaker 2: it's important. They said, yeah, we'll get back to you.

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Speaker 2: We'll get back to you and then we get an

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Speaker 2: offer at the end and says we're disregarding all of it.

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Speaker 2: Take it or leave it, go to the vote, chuck

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Speaker 2: a tantrum, go to fair Work. That's not okay. They

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Speaker 2: just want to get back to the bargaining table and

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Speaker 2: negotiate properly.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that's a possibility now or do you

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Speaker 1: think that the minister's really, you know, throwing that possibility

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Speaker 1: out by going to the Fair Work Commission or are

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Speaker 1: you confident you're going to be able to get back to.

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Speaker 2: The table the unions. I'm speaking on the arf of

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Speaker 2: CPSU here, but you know I'm close contact with all

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Speaker 2: the other unions at the table as well. We are

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Speaker 2: more than capable, more than willing to go back to

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Speaker 2: the table because it's the right thing to do. If

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Speaker 2: we need to go down the fairwork path, then we do.

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Speaker 2: But that's the key thing here today. We just need

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Speaker 2: to get back to the table and negotiate.

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Speaker 1: David to anybody listening this morning, and I said this

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Speaker 1: to the Police Union as well, to Nathan Finn to

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Speaker 1: anybody listening this morning, that's thinking. You know, come on, guys,

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Speaker 1: three percent year on year, you're being greedy. What do

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Speaker 1: you say to them?

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Speaker 2: I say to them that there is no greater investment

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Speaker 2: than investing in the public service. And it's in everyone's

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Speaker 2: interest at the public service prospers. It's in their interest

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Speaker 2: in terms of the services, it's in their interest in

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Speaker 2: terms of the paying conditions. We're at the front line

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Speaker 2: here to ensure that the government does the right thing

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Speaker 2: by its workforce, but also the right thing by the community,

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Speaker 2: the business community. We're jumping up and down before the

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Speaker 2: election saying please, please please keep public servants in the NT.

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Speaker 2: We need them here. We need their capacity, we need

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Speaker 2: their money in the community. We need all these people

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Speaker 2: in the community because at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: they're the ones in the Northern Territory working in the

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Speaker 2: Northern Territory, providing money in the Northern Territory and allowing

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Speaker 2: everybody else to prostitute. And we could be in an

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Speaker 2: even better place if more people had better conditions through

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Speaker 2: the public service.

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Speaker 1: David, in terms of a figure, you know, a percentage,

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Speaker 1: because like I said, obviously three percent each year is

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Speaker 1: what's been put on the table. What would you like

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Speaker 1: to see? What do you think, spear.

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Speaker 2: Well, Katie, Our members claim it's a nuanced claim, and

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to go through the whole thing because

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Speaker 2: it's boring. But the claim is that it should be

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Speaker 2: around five percent. Okay, now you can say that's too much.

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Speaker 2: I can already hear all the reasons why people would

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Speaker 2: raise their concerns. I can hear it already in my head. Okay,

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Speaker 2: I get that right. But we have to factor in

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Speaker 2: that we are not competitive anymore. And we also have

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Speaker 2: to factor in that the government itself, they have been

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Speaker 2: quoted at nauseum for years during the way trees, the

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Speaker 2: same government who's now coming out saying why weren't you

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Speaker 2: fighting against your labor mates? Who attended our rallies. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: Lias Binocchiaro, all of them attended our rallies and said

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Speaker 2: what the government was doing with shameless and that they

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Speaker 2: would bargain with us in good faith, telling us that

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Speaker 2: we can't get anything more than what they're putting on

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Speaker 2: the table, and then selecting one group of workers and saying,

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Speaker 2: actually you can, but stuck the rest of you is

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Speaker 2: not bargaining in good faith.

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Speaker 1: Well, David Valagas, I really appreciate your time this morning.

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Speaker 1: Please keep us up to date with how things progress.

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Speaker 1: I'll be interested to know whether they do come back

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Speaker 1: to the table and where you know, where we go

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Speaker 1: from here. Just really quickly though, if you can just

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Speaker 1: let us know. I mean, when you look at the

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Speaker 1: pay rates that we have here in the Northern Territory

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Speaker 1: right now comparatively to other states, how big an impact

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Speaker 1: is this having on us trying to fill some of

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Speaker 1: these different jobs. I mean, we last week spoke to

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Speaker 1: the Allied Health Union and talked a little bit more

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Speaker 1: about the impact when it comes to some of those

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Speaker 1: other jobs within our health system. How big an impact

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Speaker 1: would you say this is having at the moment.

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Speaker 2: Massive, absolutely massive, And there's no part of the Northern

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Speaker 2: Territory public service that isn't touched by this issue. With

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Speaker 2: the vacancy rates across the board, we have people doing

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Speaker 2: the jobs of three or four workers in any given

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Speaker 2: workplace because it's so difficult to have people stay in

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Speaker 2: the Northern Territory, they'll recruit a whole room of new

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Speaker 2: people and they'll be gone within three months. This is

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Speaker 2: the issue. We need to do more, and we need

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Speaker 2: to do better to stop to try and at least

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Speaker 2: stem it, at least stop it from happening.

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Speaker 1: David, thank you so much for your time this morning.

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Speaker 1: Really appreciate you having a chat with us.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Katie, thank you.