1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: Tell me if this sounds like you. You've got endless 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: emails to reply to, meetings, backing onto meetings, that next 3 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: report to write, customers or clients demanding your time urgently, 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: and then there's everything at home. 5 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 2: Can you relate to that? And I mean, how are 6 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 2: you supposed to fit it all in? 7 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: If you're anything like me, you immediately start hunting for 8 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: the cool news scheduling software or productivity app. But according 9 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: to Guardian journalist and author Oliver Berkman, maybe it's actually 10 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: time to stop trying out new tools and systems. 11 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:37,599 Speaker 2: Oliver is a. 12 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: Self professed productivity nerd, and he believes that our fixation 13 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 1: on the next brilliant organizational system might make us feel 14 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: like we're getting on top of things, but it could 15 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: actually come at the cost of getting the truly important 16 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:58,639 Speaker 1: things done. So how can we learn to prioritize what 17 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: really matters? And how can we make choices that enlarge 18 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:06,039 Speaker 1: us rather than diminish us? And why should we actually 19 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:14,040 Speaker 1: avoid trying to get everything done? My name is doctor 20 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: Amantha Imber. I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of 21 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,559 Speaker 1: behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this is how I work 22 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: a show about how to help you do your best work. 23 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 2: Oliver Berkman just released his. 24 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: Latest book, and it's called four thousand Weeks, So I 25 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: wanted to ask him why call a book four thousand weeks? 26 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 3: Four Thousand weeks is the approximate amount of time that 27 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,559 Speaker 3: you have on the planet if you live to be eighty. 28 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,839 Speaker 3: It's a little bit the precise number is a little 29 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 3: bit more than four thousand. And this was a calculation 30 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 3: that I just sort of made independently. I mean, turns 31 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 3: out I was far from the first, of course, but 32 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 3: I sort of just made it independently a few years 33 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 3: ago when I was pondering these questions of the shortness 34 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 3: of life and had a sort of a meltdown in 35 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 3: response to it. I mean, there's something horrifying about expressing 36 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 3: it in those terms. I hope that it's not the 37 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 3: kind of horror that just causes people to not want 38 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 3: to have anything to do with this book, because I 39 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 3: promise that if you look inside, my goal is to 40 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 3: explain how, in some ways this is a relief and 41 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 3: a reason to stop trying to do impossible things and 42 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 3: to focus instead on getting round to what matters. But 43 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 3: not with a kind of panicky white knuckle. Oh my goodness, 44 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 3: I've got to seize the day because we only have 45 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 3: so little time. So it's a little bit of a 46 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 3: bait and switch. Maybe there's something sort of shocking about 47 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 3: the title, but I hope that the book is more 48 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 3: liberating and empowering than shocking. I guess we'll find out 49 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 3: if that was a clever decision. 50 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: I do want to talk about, I guess prioritization because 51 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: I I've read four thousand Weeks and I loved it, 52 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 1: and I also found it very challenging as well, because 53 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: I feel like it's kind of almost an anti productivity 54 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: book for productivity geeks, of which I am one. And 55 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 1: it sounds like you are a recovering productivity geek. 56 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 2: Is that fair to say? 57 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 3: Yes? Absolutely, yeah, so not even that recovering. 58 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: Not even that recovering. Okay, so we're like, we're kind of, 59 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 1: you know, amongst friends here. 60 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 3: That's good. 61 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 2: So you in. 62 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: The book, you talk about how you thought of yourself 63 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: as the kind of person who gets things done, and 64 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: then like you became clear that the things that you 65 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: got done most diligently were the unimportant ones. 66 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 2: Well, the important ones got postponed. 67 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: And I feel like that is something that a lot 68 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: of people are going to be able to relate to. 69 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 2: But I wanted to know, for you, how did you 70 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 2: figure out that this was happening. 71 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 3: I mean, mainly, you just look at whatever fancying you 72 00:03:55,520 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 3: to do list organizational system you've implemented, and you see 73 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 3: that the things that have been crossed off, or the 74 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 3: you know, post its that have been successfully moved across 75 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 3: the columns, or whatever whatever system you're using, that a 76 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 3: sort of huge amount of stuff has been done in 77 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 3: the last week, and it kind of never was the 78 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 3: stuff that you know, deep down was the most important 79 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 3: to do. I mean, I write in the book about 80 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 3: this the way that, like, you know, there's a whole 81 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 3: load of reasons for it, but I think a very 82 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 3: simple way that people will understand it very easily is 83 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 3: just that, you know, we want a feeling of productivity, 84 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:36,840 Speaker 3: especially if we're productivity geeks. We want to get through 85 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 3: our to do list, so naturally we gravitate towards the 86 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 3: things that it's easy to process. We maybe shy away 87 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 3: from the things that are challenging or intimidating, but it's 88 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 3: the things that are challenging or intimidating that tend to 89 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 3: matter the most. That's why they're challenging and intimidating, because 90 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 3: the stakes are higher, and you know, you want to 91 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 3: write this chapter well, and you want this difficult conversation 92 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 3: with somebody to have a good result. I mean, it's 93 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 3: it's so that I find this with email as a 94 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 3: really good example, right, I mean emails that fundamentally don't 95 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 3: really matter from people who I don't particularly care about 96 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 3: in the professional context, someone you know I don't I 97 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 3: don't want to be rude in stockings for examples, but like, 98 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 3: you know, some very purely administrative email about something I'm 99 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 3: trying to figure out, very easy to respond to. If 100 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 3: someone who's reading my newsletter sends me a sort of 101 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 3: long and involved email that's really interesting and feels like 102 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 3: it needs a personal response, or if an old friend 103 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 3: of mine gets in touch with the news update. Right, 104 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 3: these are my priorities, Like, that's what I want to 105 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 3: spend my life doing, at least when it comes to email. 106 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 3: But then it's so easy to fall into what I 107 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 3: called when I first read about it, the importance trap. 108 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 3: You know, you say, well, okay, for those things I 109 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 3: really need attention and time, and I need focus and 110 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 3: I need to not have all these other little sort 111 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,840 Speaker 3: of nonsense tasks tugging at my attention. So I'm going 112 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 3: to focus for now on clearing the decks, and tomorrow 113 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 3: or this afternoon or sometime soon, then I'm going to 114 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 3: have this wonderful time when I do what really counts. 115 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 3: And you know, first of all, it just never arrives. 116 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 3: But secondly, getting more and more efficient at clearing the 117 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 3: decks sort of postpones even further the time at which 118 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 3: it arrives, because, as I say a couple of times 119 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 3: in the book, you know, we live in a world 120 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 3: of infinite inputs. There isn't an end to the number 121 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 3: of things that can come and fill the decks. The 122 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 3: number of emails you can receive, the number of demands 123 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 3: your boss can make of you, the number of career 124 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 3: goals you might have for yourself, bucket list places to visit, whatever, 125 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 3: They're all infinite. So if you get better and better 126 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 3: and better at processing them, you're just going to feel busier. 127 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 3: You're never going to get to the end of them. 128 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 3: And if you're focusing when you do that on the 129 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 3: least important ones, you're going to find that you just 130 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 3: you know, your lists fill up with more and more 131 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 3: of that stuff. Someone's going to ask you to do something, 132 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 3: and because you're not thinking in terms of trade offs, 133 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 3: because you're not thinking, well, what am I going to 134 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 3: have to not do in order to make time for this? 135 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 3: Because I am finite and the inputs are infinite. Because 136 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 3: you're not thinking in terms of like, which thing am 137 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 3: I going to neglect in order to do the other thing? 138 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 3: You're just going to say yes to more and more 139 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 3: and more and more things. Your job may make it compulsory, 140 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 3: you know, for you to say yes to more and 141 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 3: more and more things, But the result is going to 142 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 3: be that the most important stuff sort of gets slips 143 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 3: away over the horizon. 144 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 2: How do you decline to clear the decks? What does 145 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 2: that look like in practice for you? 146 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 3: Well, I'm really careful. In the book, I don't want 147 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 3: to imply that anyone, you know, even someone in a 148 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 3: relatively sort of privileged self employed position like me, but 149 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 3: really anyone, very few of us have the choice of just, 150 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 3: you know, walking away from an inbox that's filling up. 151 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 3: I don't. I'm sure you don't, and it's going to 152 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 3: be even less likely that people in more conventionally shaped 153 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 3: jobs have that ability. Instead. What I'm talking about is 154 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 3: two things. One is a sort of a psychological stance, 155 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 3: and then I can talk about practical implementation. The psychological 156 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 3: stance is just this idea that I think what we 157 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 3: should be trying to do when it comes to the 158 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 3: surplus of information and of tasks and all the rest 159 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 3: of it in the modern world is cultivating some tolerance 160 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 3: of the discomfort associated with how much there is and 161 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:33,079 Speaker 3: how overwhelming it feels, instead of constantly scrambling to eradicate 162 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 3: the discomfort. Because if you do that, at least in 163 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 3: my case and I think quite a few other peoples, 164 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 3: if what you're chasing is a feeling of control and 165 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 3: a feeling of like being in the driver's seat and 166 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 3: finally having your life in working order, but you're doing 167 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 3: it in this context where there's no limit to what 168 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 3: can come in to need doing, then the only fact 169 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 3: of that is that you never get around to the 170 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 3: things that you care about the most. You can cultivate 171 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 3: some sense of you know, Okay, there's a lot of 172 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 3: things I, on some level, should, in quotes, be doing 173 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 3: with my time, but I can only ever do one 174 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 3: thing with each minute, hour, moment. Then it's sort of 175 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 3: a given, right, it's math. It's just maths that there's 176 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 3: going to be lots of things that you're not doing 177 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 3: every time you choose to do a thing, and to 178 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 3: the extent that you can be okay with that, you 179 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 3: can focus on the thing that matters. If you're not 180 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 3: okay with it, that's when you start trying to sort 181 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 3: of multitask as an anxiety as a coping mechanism, as 182 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 3: an anti anxiety mechanism. One really simple way to handle 183 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 3: this is just in terms of the structure of your day. 184 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 3: If you have this freedom over your schedule to make 185 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 3: sure that things like processing your inbox and processing your 186 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 3: intray or your sort of digital equivalence of intrays happens 187 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 3: at the end of the day instead of at the 188 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 3: beginning of the day, and happens on a fix schedule, 189 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 3: so that you sort of give it an hour or 190 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 3: two hours or half an hour, depending on your position, 191 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 3: and then you sort of walk away from it, and 192 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 3: you sort of train that muscle of saying, okay, this 193 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 3: is going to get ninety minutes of my attention today, 194 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 3: and then it's going to get nineteen minutes tomorrow, and 195 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 3: if I get a rhythm up there, you know you're 196 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 3: going to stay probably on top of most of the 197 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 3: things that you need to stay on top of. But 198 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 3: you're not going to be in this kind of Sisyphian 199 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 3: struggle to get to the top of a mountain that 200 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,079 Speaker 3: you're never going to be able to get to the 201 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 3: top of, because you're sort of saying from the beginning, Okay, 202 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 3: it's just going to be an hour of my day 203 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 3: or whatever it should be. And and I think that's 204 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 3: a much more sort of sane way of dealing with 205 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 3: the infinite inputs. 206 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 1: Yes, so what does what does it look like when 207 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: you're in your inbox? 208 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 2: How are you approaching things? 209 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, on my best days, I am going to be saying, 210 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 3: you know, I have an approximate plan for the day, 211 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 3: sort of time boxed, and I have a checklist of 212 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 3: certain kinds of tough that I aim to do daily, 213 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 3: of which overwhelmingly, you know, processing some email is the 214 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:23,079 Speaker 3: is the biggest is the biggest consumer of time, and 215 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 3: I'll just be in my inbox for that amount of time. 216 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 3: I have literally have a little digital kitchen timer that 217 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 3: I will set and that will count down, and I'll 218 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 3: and I'll be aiming to get stuff out of the inbox, 219 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,199 Speaker 3: either just by replying if that's all it needs, if 220 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,839 Speaker 3: it needs to go into my task management system, I'll 221 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 3: try to sort of take it out of there. In 222 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 3: other words, I'm not like running my life out of 223 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 3: my inbox, where everything from missives from friends, urgent things 224 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 3: from editors, and you know, advertisements from some restaurant that 225 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 3: I gave my email address to three years ago are 226 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 3: all mixed and competing for my attention. It's a place 227 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 3: that I'm going to take things out of, either because 228 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 3: the reply is all it's needed, or because it goes 229 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 3: into my wider system, or in many cases, of course, 230 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 3: it just gets deleted, or it's an email newsletter. I 231 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 3: read there and then and take bits from if I'm interested, 232 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 3: otherwise file away and then stop when that timer stop. 233 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 3: I mean, this is the hard part. The hard part 234 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 3: is that is training yourself to sort of once you're 235 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 3: on a roll and you're like, oh, if I just 236 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:35,319 Speaker 3: carried on a bit more, I might get to the 237 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 3: I might get inbox zero, you know, depending on the 238 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 3: state of your inbox, actually get Actually stopping is the 239 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 3: part that is hard, but I think it's really important 240 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 3: because you're cultivating there this in the act of stopping. 241 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 3: You're cultivating this patience, this tolerance of the discomfort, and 242 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 3: this willingness to say, like, Okay, my job is not 243 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,040 Speaker 3: to try to do something literally impossible, which is to 244 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 3: you know, get my arms around an infinite quantity. My 245 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 3: job is to spend a sort of reasonable amount of 246 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 3: my day and my stamina doing this part of my job. 247 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 3: And of course it's a far better recipe for being 248 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 3: able to show up day after day after day at 249 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 3: your job anyway. So it's not like I'm saying that 250 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:25,079 Speaker 3: people should sort of be irresponsible, because it's not responsible to, 251 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 3: you know, get onto these crazy runs where you're trying 252 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 3: to get to the very end of something and you 253 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,079 Speaker 3: end up, you know, going to bed three hours late 254 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:36,959 Speaker 3: and being incapable of work for the next three days 255 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 3: or what no, now you mentioned. 256 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 1: When you're in your in box, it's just so easy 257 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:45,239 Speaker 1: to prioritize the administrative, quick and easy to respond emails 258 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: and to leave the important ones till some date in 259 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: the future where you have. 260 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:51,599 Speaker 2: Cleared the decks. 261 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: How do you go about prioritizing responding to the important 262 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 1: ones and not the easy ones. 263 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 3: Prioritizing is a really question. I don't really write about 264 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:07,199 Speaker 3: that so much in the book, and I think honestly, 265 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 3: on the level of things like email, I do do 266 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 3: it very intuitively, like I don't attempt to sort of 267 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 3: have some kind of points system that that waits different 268 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 3: emails with in different ways over the course of my work. 269 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 3: In general, I do try to prioritize sort of writing 270 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 3: and related kind of directly creative work, because that's sort 271 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 3: of the centerpiece of what I do. I try to 272 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 3: prioritize that in the sense that I try to spend 273 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 3: the first sort of three or four hours of the 274 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 3: day on that. That's sort of sort of rule of 275 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 3: thumb that I try to I try to operate. But 276 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 3: like you know, I think about my working day as 277 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 3: divided into that that bit and the rest of it, 278 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 3: and so you know, that's a sort of prioritization of 279 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 3: very sort of rough and ready prioritization that just comes 280 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 3: from like knowing what is the fundamental bit of my work, 281 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 3: the bit the bit that I don't I'm not going 282 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 3: to I'm pretty rapidly going to stop having any value 283 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 3: if I if I neglect. I'm still struggling to find 284 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 3: enough time for like reading. I think that's probably true 285 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 3: for a lot of people. But like the sort of 286 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 3: the input side of this, where you take in the 287 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 3: sort of intellectual nourishment, it's very easy to tell yourself 288 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 3: that you're going to get around to that in a 289 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 3: week or two, once you've got these big things out 290 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 3: of the way, And I think that's a bad tactic 291 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 3: and one that I still struggle with. 292 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 1: I feel like that that relates to what you talk 293 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: about in terms of limiting your work in progress. 294 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 2: Can you sort of talk about how you do that 295 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 2: in practice? 296 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. This has been one of the great sort of 297 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 3: on a day to day level, life changing ideas for 298 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 3: me that I've encountered in the last few years. One 299 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 3: of the people who deserve credit for this is guy 300 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 3: called Jim Benson, who wrote a book called Personal can Ban. 301 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 3: But it's around in other places as well. This is 302 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 3: just the idea that the sort of theoretical idea, and 303 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 3: then I'll say a practical way of doing it. But 304 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 3: the theoretical idea is just that you set a really 305 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 3: low upper ceiling on the number of things, number of projects, 306 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 3: or tasks that you're going to allow to be sort 307 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 3: of actively on your plate at any one point. And 308 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 3: so if it's like three, then the way this works 309 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 3: is that you don't you work on one of those 310 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 3: three and then you move to another one. Perhaps you 311 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 3: do it. You can sort of go between them as 312 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 3: you like, but you don't bring on a fourth item 313 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 3: until you've finished one of them, thereby freeing up a 314 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 3: slot and so that a new one can become one 315 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 3: of the three. So a really simple way of implementing 316 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 3: this is just to have two to do lists. Right, 317 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 3: you keep one list which is just endless. It's got 318 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 3: all the three hundred things that you have said you'll 319 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 3: do or want to do or are thinking about doing, 320 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 3: and then a second list that has let's say five 321 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 3: slots on it, and you move five things from the 322 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,120 Speaker 3: long list to the short list. And the rule is 323 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 3: no more things move from the long list to the 324 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 3: shortlist until there's a new slot freed up by one 325 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 3: of them being completed. So then you work on one 326 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 3: of those five. When it's finished, you cross it out 327 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 3: and you can add a new one to your list 328 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 3: now because it only has four on it. It's so simple, 329 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,919 Speaker 3: but I mean, it just has all these kind of 330 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 3: amazing implications. When you sort of practice it for a while, 331 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 3: you see it turns out to be much more powerful 332 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 3: than you and you might have imagined, because it sort 333 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 3: of brings you right up into contact with your finitude, 334 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 3: right with your limitation, because it's actually always the case 335 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 3: that you can only be working on a few things, 336 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 3: and in some sense only ever working on one thing 337 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 3: at a time, like that was always the case. All 338 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 3: that's happening here is you're becoming conscious of it, and 339 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,479 Speaker 3: you're making a wise decision about which ones. 340 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: We will be back with Oliver Berkman soon talking about 341 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: why he keeps a done list. But in the meantime, 342 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 1: if you're enjoying how I work, you might want to 343 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: connect with me on the socials. I'm on LinkedIn to 344 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 1: search for Amantha Imba. I'm on Twitter at Amantha, and 345 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: I'm on Instagram at Amantha I and I publish a 346 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: whole lot more content and tips and cool things that 347 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: I'm finding through all of those channels. 348 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 2: So drop me a note connect with me there. I'd 349 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 2: love to hear from you. 350 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 1: Now. In the book, you talk about a done list 351 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: as well. Can you explain how you're using a dumb 352 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:43,959 Speaker 1: list and what that is. 353 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, that is an incredibly simple notion. That is just 354 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 3: the idea that in addition to all these lists that 355 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 3: we keep our systems that we have to tell us 356 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 3: and organize all the things we have not yet done, 357 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 3: the sort of terrible weight of the at not yet 358 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 3: completed things. Cut yourself some slack, keep a list of 359 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 3: that you add to of the things that you complete, right, 360 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 3: keep keep a record of of what you do. Some 361 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 3: of the ways that people organize there there to do 362 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 3: is will naturally create these, Right if you're sort of 363 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 3: moving things among columns on a canban board or something 364 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 3: like that, you're going to naturally come up with a 365 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 3: list of completed items. But if you're the just have 366 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 3: a sort of regular to do list, like keep one 367 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 3: other list where you literally write something down every time 368 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 3: you've you've crossed it off one list, or even if 369 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 3: you wasn't on that list, you know, if you do it, 370 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 3: write it on the done list. I think you know, 371 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 3: in the simplest level, it's just nice to remind yourself 372 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:48,959 Speaker 3: that that you you sort of almost always, even when 373 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 3: you feel like a day didn't go very productively, you 374 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 3: actually probably did a whole lot of stuff. It's incredibly 375 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 3: easy to forget the sort of number of genuinely worthwhile 376 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 3: things that you did on a subtler level. I think 377 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 3: it helps challenge this notion that a lot of people 378 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 3: have and that I certainly am still to some extent 379 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 3: afflicted by that you sort of start each morning in 380 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 3: a condition of what I called productivity debt. You know that, 381 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 3: like you owe it to yourself or maybe to your 382 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 3: boss or something like to sort of pay off this 383 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,719 Speaker 3: debt through being productive, and hopefully on a really good 384 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 3: day you might get back up to like zero balance. 385 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 3: You might get yourself out of overdraft and out of 386 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 3: debt and back to zero, which is a really kind 387 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 3: of I mean, there are lots of reasons for it, 388 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,439 Speaker 3: but it's a really unfortunate and self punishing way to 389 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 3: frame work. And it's tied into all these kind of 390 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 3: ideas that people have about their self worth and about 391 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 3: the idea that they're not really justifying their existence on 392 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 3: the planet, not really really have a right to exist 393 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 3: unless they unless they sort of pull off a certain 394 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 3: amount of tosk. Obviously, people are in jobs where they 395 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 3: do in another sense have to do a certain amount 396 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:08,160 Speaker 3: of tasks to get paid, but in this existential sense, 397 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 3: you know, I think a lot of people have, certainly 398 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 3: me historically, have tied up their sense of sort of 399 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 3: basic adequacy as a human with how productive they're being. 400 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,199 Speaker 3: And the great thing about a done list is it 401 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 3: sort of rewires this a bit, and it helps you 402 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 3: to think, well, how about you start the morning at 403 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 3: zero and everything that you do is extra, like it's 404 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,199 Speaker 3: a deposit into your productivity bank account instead of just 405 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 3: paying off a debt. Why not think about it that way? 406 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:41,400 Speaker 3: Why not think that you're absolutely enough as you are, 407 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 3: and then if you manage to do a whole lot 408 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 3: of cool things today, that's all extra and it's all great. 409 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 2: That's so cool. 410 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 1: I love that reframe because I've never been able to 411 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:57,199 Speaker 1: consistently keep a done list, even though I really like 412 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:01,479 Speaker 1: the advice. And interestingly, I've recently in my workflow around 413 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 1: how I managed tasks, and I was listening to you 414 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 1: talk about your to do list strategy and the long 415 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 1: list and the short list, or I think in the 416 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 1: book you're referred to it as an open list and 417 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 1: a closed list, which, yeah, which really resonated with me, 418 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 1: and I've recently someone put me onto this software called Motion. Annoyingly, 419 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,679 Speaker 1: there are two calendar software is called Motion and for 420 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 1: anyone that is interested, it's Usemotion dot io dot com. 421 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: And how it works is that you have your combines 422 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: your task list and I guess this would be the 423 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: well I guess the closed list with your calendar. So 424 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: you're seeing both on the same screen, and you enter 425 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: your tasks on the left hand side, and you assign 426 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: an approximate time of how long they would take to complete, 427 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: and then you drag and drop them into your calendar, 428 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: so it sort of automatically timeboxes for you in terms 429 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: of that task then becomes. 430 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 2: A meeting with yourself. And then when you finish the task, 431 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 2: like normally, what. 432 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: Would happen if you were just doing normal timeboxing is 433 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: time would pass and you would have finished the task. 434 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: But with this, you actually get to tick it off 435 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 1: and it stays in your calendar, but it's kind of 436 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 1: grade out, so like you get to the end of 437 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: the day and you feel that sense of achievement or 438 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,920 Speaker 1: progress because everything you've completed is still there, but it's 439 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: ticked off, and you get to tick it off as 440 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 1: you go through your day, which also, you know, it's 441 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 1: just good in terms of giving you that dopamine hit 442 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,919 Speaker 1: as you go throughout it, but it's also good in 443 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: terms of not over scheduling yourself because you kind of like, 444 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 1: you like, if you treat that task list as the 445 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: closed list, and then you make sure that you have 446 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 1: time to fit everything physically into your calendar, then you 447 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 1: kind of end up with this perfectly balanced calendar. 448 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 2: I find. 449 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 3: Okay, I'm going to I'm going to check that out. 450 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 3: This is music to my head. It's reminded me of 451 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 3: I wrote an email NEWSLETTERG just recently about sort of 452 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 3: returning to the Pomodoro technique, talk about old school productivity, geekism. 453 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 3: This is if anyone's listening doesn't know, this is a 454 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 3: methodology based around dividing your time into twenty five minute 455 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 3: chunks followed by five minute breaks. But the guy who 456 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 3: started that has it got this very very interesting way 457 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 3: of talking about time and the idea that what he's 458 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 3: doing is offering one way for people to stop time 459 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 3: being a predator, as he puts it, stop having this 460 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 3: kind of antagonistic relationship to time. So you know, instead 461 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 3: of instead of sort of starting off with a long 462 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 3: list of tasks in the morning and and sort of 463 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 3: beginning the fight, the battle to get them all done 464 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 3: in the limited amount of time, which sort of pitches 465 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 3: you into this battle with time. Instead, you sort of 466 00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 3: think about your day as divided up into these chunks 467 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 3: and you figure what can be fitted into them. And 468 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 3: the fact is if that means neglecting some things, well 469 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 3: it was always going to mean neglecting some things, only 470 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 3: now you're doing it without this kind of anxiety inducing 471 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 3: belief that you might you know, break the rules of 472 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 3: physics and fit even more in. And that really spoke 473 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 3: to me is something that I'm also trying to, I 474 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 3: think say in this in this book. It's the big 475 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 3: idea here is something to do with kind of falling 476 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 3: back into reality and falling back into time. Let's not 477 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 3: get into Heidegger in this podcast, probably, but but you know, 478 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 3: there are some big ideas here that that sort of 479 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 3: are in that go quite a long way back in philosophy. 480 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 3: It's sort of understanding that what you are is a 481 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 3: kind of a river of time that flows for a while, 482 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 3: and you're in it as opposed to scrambling out of 483 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 3: it and then trying to sort of control it from 484 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 3: above and what you and you're listening can't see now 485 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 3: as I'm sort of I'm sort of contorting myself into 486 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 3: various physical shapes here to try to try to articulate 487 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 3: this idea that I think a lot of us are 488 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 3: trying a lot of the time to kind of psychologically 489 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 3: lever ourselves into a position of being on top of 490 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,199 Speaker 3: our lives and being in command of time and being 491 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 3: in the driver's seat, being like air traffic control and 492 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 3: sort of navigating the way things go instead of being 493 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,239 Speaker 3: instead of understanding that we're in it, but we are it. 494 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 3: That you know today you have the hours of today, 495 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 3: and that's that. It's this just like relaxing back into 496 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 3: reality and seeing not only is that much less anxiety 497 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 3: inducing to understand that, like you have this time, certain 498 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 3: things can be done with this time, and that's that, 499 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 3: but it's also very empowering because you know, it means 500 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 3: that you get to do the things that you want 501 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,479 Speaker 3: to do. It means mean and that are most important 502 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 3: to you to do because you're no longer fighting this 503 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:09,439 Speaker 3: kind of this kind of futile battle to become a 504 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 3: kind of god with regard to your life. 505 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 1: It's interesting in the book you write a bit about patience, 506 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 1: and I guess building your patient's muscle, and it's it's funny. 507 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 1: I think back to, gosh, it must have been the 508 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: beginning of last year, and one of my goals was 509 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 1: to become more patient, which probably sounds like a very 510 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: strange goal, and I gave. 511 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 3: Me but maybe it's lots of people here. 512 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I didn't succeed, and I still have many days. 513 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 2: And I was even reflecting on this a few weeks ago. 514 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: I have so many days where I spend the day 515 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,159 Speaker 1: feeling like I'm rushed or I'm running behind, like that 516 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: perpetual sense of oh, if only I had, like, you know, 517 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: an extra five minutes in this twenty four hour period, 518 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: I could catch up, which is completely nonsensical. And I 519 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 1: want to know for you, I imagine that building your patient's. 520 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 2: Muscle has been something you're trying to do. What strategies 521 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 2: have work for you. 522 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 3: Well, there's the extreme one that I write about in 523 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 3: the book, where I did this exercise that an art 524 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 3: historian called Jennifer Roberts at Harvard University recommends, where you were, 525 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 3: Oh my god. 526 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: Sorry, I just have to explain it. But my god, 527 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: that made me feel sick when I read that. But 528 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 1: please explain it. 529 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,160 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Well, basically, if you do, and if she's 530 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,439 Speaker 3: an art historian at Harvard and she has all her 531 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 3: beginning students do the same exercise, which is that they 532 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 3: should choose a painting or sculpture in the at a 533 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 3: museum in the area. And obviously Cambridge, Massachusetts has a 534 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 3: whole lot of really fantastic art collections and go and 535 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 3: look at it for three hours straight. And you can 536 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 3: can take a bathroom break if you have to. But 537 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 3: it's but basically, I'm not supposed to do anything else 538 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 3: but look at the painting. And the idea here is that, 539 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 3: you know, especially with the visual arts, it's really easy 540 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 3: to tell your self that you've seen a painting just 541 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 3: because you've looked at it, but actually all sorts of 542 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 3: details in a painting sort of give themselves up after 543 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 3: a certain amount of time. And I went and did 544 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 3: this thing and looked at the painting and for three 545 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 3: hours at the Harvard Art Museums. And it's a very 546 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 3: interesting experience. It's interesting from the point of view of 547 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 3: understanding art, which is not one of my strong points, 548 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,959 Speaker 3: but it's also just it really demonstrates that how you know, 549 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 3: after a very short time, it's an incredibly uncomfortable experience 550 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 3: to not be able to try to hurry reality to 551 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 3: go at the speed you want, right, which is what 552 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 3: you would normally do. You'd sort of so you sort 553 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 3: of undergo the discomfort of not being able to hurry reality. 554 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 3: But on the other side of that discomfort, sort of 555 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 3: reality opens out in this remarkable way, and you find 556 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 3: yourself much more relaxed and much more in touch with 557 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 3: the thing that you're looking at. The broader point that 558 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 3: I'm trying to make about patients in the book is 559 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 3: that is that patience is essentially, in a world that 560 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 3: is accelerating as much as ours is, the ability to 561 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 3: be patient, to let things take the time they take, 562 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 3: is actually a form of control. Right. Historically, I think 563 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 3: patience has been a thing that it's been a sort 564 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 3: of virtue of the dispossessed. It's a thing that women 565 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 3: were told to cultivate patients while their husbands were living 566 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 3: more exciting lives outside the home, or you know, ethnic 567 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 3: minorities have been told used to be patient, to wait 568 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 3: a few more decades to have full civil rights. It's 569 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,479 Speaker 3: been a very sort of passive and oppressive kind of 570 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 3: so called virtue, right, it's sort of like deal with 571 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 3: the fact that you don't have power kind of ideology. 572 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 3: But what Jennifer Roberts points out is that, you know, 573 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 3: as society accelerates, it becomes a form of power. Rather 574 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 3: than a way of accommodating yourself to your lack of power, 575 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 3: it becomes a way of being able to resist the 576 00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 3: fact that every single technological and cultural and economic force 577 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 3: is pushing us to go fast, to go fast, to 578 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 3: go faster, to the point where you actually can't do 579 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 3: well the things that you might want to do, or 580 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 3: experience life in the ways you might might want to 581 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 3: and so cultivating patients then, I think, is just like 582 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 3: that really is another part of this kind of falling 583 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 3: back into reality, And the reality is that you can't 584 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 3: hurry the pace of everything that you know, reading a 585 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 3: book and getting the most out of it just takes 586 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 3: the time it takes. 587 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 1: What do you do on a day to day level 588 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: when you find yourself feeling rushed or impatient? 589 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 3: Again, it's the good days and bad days question. But 590 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 3: what I do when I can when I have just 591 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 3: enough presence of mind and consciousness to see that that's 592 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 3: what's happening, is to stop completely, you know, to to 593 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 3: go from rushing something to just stopping and really focus 594 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 3: on trying to feel the discomfort, right, because I think 595 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 3: the thing that is so extraordinary about this kind of 596 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 3: discomfort and other forms of the discomfort that we've been 597 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 3: talking about is how little of it will totally is 598 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 3: how little is required to completely sort of divert me 599 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 3: from my path of the day and or to cause 600 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 3: me to get incredibly anxious and frustrated with how slow 601 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 3: something's going. And if you turn your attention to the discomfort, 602 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 3: very often you sort of have this understanding that like, 603 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 3: it's it's not a big deal, right, It's not. It's 604 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 3: not it doesn't usually feel like some sort of terrible 605 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 3: torture or pain. It's just a sort of it's a 606 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 3: sort of mild resistance to being where you are and 607 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 3: the things that what's happening is is happening, and you 608 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 3: know when you're when it's working well, that will enable 609 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 3: you to sort of drop more deeply into the experience 610 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 3: of reality and find that actually there's nothing wrong with you. 611 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 3: Know that the fact that something is taking longer than 612 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 3: you thought it was that then you thought you wanted 613 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 3: it to that the only cause of the anxiety is 614 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 3: some bizarre imaginary standard you have that it ought to 615 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 3: be possible to do this thing more quickly than it 616 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 3: is possible to do it in And so why not 617 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 3: let go of the imaginary standard and just keep sort 618 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 3: of steadily working on God, that's. 619 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 2: So helpful to keep in mind. 620 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm going to take it as my 621 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: child to try to apply that today. 622 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 3: Now, might you see me waiting in a line somewhere 623 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 3: looking really angry and like frustrated and clanching my fists. Yes, 624 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 3: because I'm not perfect at any of this, And I think. 625 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 2: That's so good to remember. It's so easy. 626 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 1: I feel like for people to particularly listen to guests 627 00:33:58,960 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: that I have on how I. 628 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 2: Work and go, they've got it all sorted. 629 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: But it's really refreshing to know that, well, all of 630 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: it doesn't have it all sorted, even though we're saying 631 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: all these really smart things. Now, I wanted to ask 632 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 1: you something. There are a bunch of things towards the 633 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,839 Speaker 1: end of the book that are questions, and then there 634 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 1: are some practical ideas, And something that stuck with me 635 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,760 Speaker 1: is I think it's a question that you say, James 636 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: Hollis asks, and it does this choice diminish me or 637 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: enlarge me when we're thinking about making decisions, And I'd 638 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 1: love to know, like when and how do you apply 639 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:36,280 Speaker 1: that question. 640 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 3: I'll give you one very specific sort of example that 641 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 3: was very significant to me. I live in the United States, 642 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:47,240 Speaker 3: come from Britain. A year or two after I arrived here, 643 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 3: there were sort of various reasons to do with work 644 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 3: and relationships and all sorts of things that sort of 645 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 3: caused me to think like, oh, maybe it's time to 646 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:58,160 Speaker 3: go home. You know, maybe it's time to go back 647 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 3: where I belong and not stay here. And you know, 648 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 3: I had I was really only just at the beginning 649 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,359 Speaker 3: of understanding this kind of James Hollis stuff. So I'm 650 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 3: maybe slightly retroactively applying this way of thinking to that decision. 651 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 3: But looking back, certainly I can see there that that 652 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 3: was a time when actually it might have made you know, 653 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:23,719 Speaker 3: I hadn't no idea it was going to make me happiest, 654 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 3: but it would have been a form of diminishment. It 655 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 3: would have been a sort of a retreat from challenges 656 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 3: that needed to be faced in my life. If I 657 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 3: had if I had gone home, I would have been 658 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 3: running away and it was enlarging to stay. And as 659 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 3: it turned out, you know, various extremely good things in 660 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 3: my life would not have happened if I hadn't if 661 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 3: I hadn't stayed. I think you can probably apply this 662 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 3: on a much more sort of low level as well, 663 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,400 Speaker 3: in terms of day to day tasks. I do find 664 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 3: myself thinking some version of it when i'm when I 665 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,760 Speaker 3: sort of know that there's a there's something I want 666 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:04,839 Speaker 3: to do for one version of the for one meaning 667 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 3: of the word want, which is it's important to me 668 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 3: and it's going to be deeply satisfying to invested time 669 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:11,840 Speaker 3: in it, but I don't want to do it for 670 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 3: the other definition of the word want, which is like 671 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 3: I'm just feeling sort of truculent and tired and I'd 672 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:21,720 Speaker 3: rather do something easier. 673 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 2: That's great. I love that question so much. 674 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 1: Now, Oliver, my final question for you for people that 675 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,279 Speaker 1: want to consume more of what you're doing and get 676 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 1: the hands on four thousand weeks, which I highly recommend. 677 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: I just think that you know it's just it's such 678 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 1: a great book for people that think about productivity and 679 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 1: think about how they use their time so much like 680 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: so many of the ideas really challenged me to rethink 681 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,959 Speaker 1: beliefs that I held about how I use my time. 682 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 2: So I couldn't recommend it highly enough. 683 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 3: So oh, I'm so glad to hear it. Thank you 684 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:56,240 Speaker 3: so much, my pleasure. 685 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 1: So how can people get their hands on a copy 686 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 1: of the book and connect with you in side? 687 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 3: Well, I've got a sort of My website is Oliver 688 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,360 Speaker 3: Berkman dot com. That's where you can sign up also 689 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,919 Speaker 3: for my Newsleader of the Imperfectionist that has a link 690 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 3: to pre orders around the world for four thousand weeks. 691 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 3: Also the url four thousand weeks book dot com four 692 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,319 Speaker 3: zero zero zero weeks book dot com will take you 693 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 3: to a page that has links for wherever you're listening from. 694 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,720 Speaker 3: And yeah, depending on when when this is being heard, 695 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 3: pre orders and orders are enormously gratefully received. 696 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 2: Fantastic, Oliver. It's been great having you back on how 697 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 2: I work. 698 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for giving me part of your 699 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:41,359 Speaker 1: day today, part of your time. 700 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. It was a pleasure, and I 701 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 3: really enjoyed the conversation. 702 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,840 Speaker 2: That is it for today's show. 703 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 1: If you are not a subscriber or follower of How 704 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 1: I Work on your podcast app, now is the time 705 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,240 Speaker 1: to hit the subscribe or follow button, because next week 706 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 1: I have got an awesome indie you with Nicki Sparshot. 707 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 1: And Nicky is the CEO of the Unilever and T 708 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: two and has some very very interesting and practical tips 709 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:16,359 Speaker 1: to share, including the power of saying yes. But How 710 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,440 Speaker 1: I Work is produced by Inventium with production support from 711 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: Dead Set Studios. The producer for this episode was the 712 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: amazing Jenna Koda, and thank you to Martin Nimba who 713 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 1: does the audio mix for all the episodes and makes 714 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,320 Speaker 1: everything sound better than it would have otherwise. 715 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 2: See you next time.