Speaker 1: This is the case of Marion Barter, a mother, teacher
Speaker 1: friend missing for twenty six years.
Speaker 2: You know, no sign that she was going to vanish,
Speaker 2: that's for sure.
Speaker 1: The bizarre circumstances surrounding her disappearance.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure if it was intentional. There something more
Speaker 3: foul afoot.
Speaker 4: If you could imagine a teacher coming straight from say
Speaker 4: little house on the prairie to the eighties, that was
Speaker 4: Marian Barter.
Speaker 5: What I say, whether you find Marian Barter dead or alive,
Speaker 5: I honestly believe somebody has that key piece of information.
Speaker 1: And the relentless quest of a daughter to find her mum.
Speaker 6: Something had happened, Something has happened to make her leave.
Speaker 5: I am one hundred percent sure, one hundred percent sure
Speaker 5: that somebody knows something.
Speaker 1: The lady vanishes, episode fifty six. I'm Alison Sandy.
Speaker 2: And I'm Brian Seymour.
Speaker 1: On February twenty nine, the world will find out what
Speaker 1: the New South Wales Coroner believes happened to Marian Barter
Speaker 1: when Teresa O'Sullivan hands down her findings after what's turned
Speaker 1: out to be more than two years of stop star
Speaker 1: inquest hearings into Marion's disappearance. It's a memorable date, a
Speaker 1: leite year day, marking an incredible journey of almost twenty
Speaker 1: seven years searching for Marion's daughter, Sally, and more than
Speaker 1: five years since the Lady Vanish's team first started collaborating.
Speaker 1: What's kept driving us all forward is that gut feeling
Speaker 1: that something wasn't right. Sally had it from the outset.
Speaker 6: Based on the fact of how quickly she quit school
Speaker 6: and left.
Speaker 1: This is when we first interviewed her in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 6: She was not happy. She was very upset, she was frazzled.
Speaker 6: Something had happened, something has happened to make her leave.
Speaker 1: The late Rebecca Cotts, who worked for the Australian Federal
Speaker 1: Police Missing Persons Unit, also had that unsettling gut feeling.
Speaker 5: My opinion on the case, I think obviously there's something
Speaker 5: that's happened to Mary and she hasn't just walked away
Speaker 5: from her life, and she had so much to live
Speaker 5: for and loved her kids and her family. I guess
Speaker 5: they knows the truth. Somebody out there has the key
Speaker 5: to the puzzle.
Speaker 1: Retired super Detective Ron Iddles believed the case could be cracked.
Speaker 4: The answers always in the file.
Speaker 6: Somebody within the community, either here in Australia or overseas,
Speaker 6: knows exactly what's happened.
Speaker 1: He was right, The answer was in the file. The
Speaker 1: key to unlocking the case was in the name Marion,
Speaker 1: adopted by deed Pole Flora Bella Natalia Marion Ramicel super sleuth.
Speaker 1: Joni was first to find the piece to the puzzle
Speaker 1: that changed everything, monsieur, the personal ad for a man
Speaker 1: looking for love multiple pile. It raised everyone's suspicions.
Speaker 3: I can make definitely see, you know, even from a
Speaker 3: week or a few weeks in, I think that Marion
Speaker 3: was potentially a prime candidate for getting sort of swept up, captured,
Speaker 3: you know, sell your house, sell everything, Let's go and
Speaker 3: live in Luxembourg with the all of the lavender Bush's
Speaker 3: and the music and the art and the French speaking
Speaker 3: multiple languages.
Speaker 1: Then police detectives brought Rick Blum into the frame. A
Speaker 1: man who admits romancing Marian in the months before her disappearance,
Speaker 1: a man with a history of fraud, multiple aliases, and
Speaker 1: a reputation across two continents as a swindler who targets
Speaker 1: vulnerable women and makes off with their money, a man
Speaker 1: who blatantly lied repeatedly while giving evidence under oath. But
Speaker 1: just how will it stack up? On February twenty nine.
Speaker 2: Sali, Regardless of what's in the findings, how hopefully you
Speaker 2: that they will bring you some sense of closure or satisfaction.
Speaker 6: The findings is a really important part of the case. Obviously,
Speaker 6: it brings some resolution as to what has actually happened
Speaker 6: to my mum after years and years of investigation and
Speaker 6: you know, to nearly three decades of me trying to
Speaker 6: find the answers. So I don't know if closure is
Speaker 6: the right word for it, but it definitely will have
Speaker 6: a point of resolution where we can pause and stop
Speaker 6: and think and you know, give me an opportunity to
Speaker 6: have a memorial service from my mum understanding what has
Speaker 6: happened a little better than where we were before this
Speaker 6: all took place.
Speaker 2: What does it mean to you to get to this
Speaker 2: point in the journey to find out what happened to you, mum?
Speaker 6: Well, everybody who's been following along on the podcast will
Speaker 6: know all too well the challenges that I've been facing
Speaker 6: for twenty seven years now on trying to get some
Speaker 6: answers and some clarity and just even some people to
Speaker 6: actually help me. It's been it's been a huge challenge
Speaker 6: and quite the milestone to get to this point in
Speaker 6: the journey, I think where you know, we've done things
Speaker 6: like petitions to get Mum put on the missing Person's
Speaker 6: register for the very first time, and you know, I
Speaker 6: wrote to the Coroner's Court requesting an inquest be held
Speaker 6: into Mum and then we had the support of everyone
Speaker 6: listening along on the podcast who helped those situations be
Speaker 6: pushed forward and to get us to this point. So
Speaker 6: you know, it's it's been a hard journey. It's not
Speaker 6: been easy, but I've tried my best to stay level
Speaker 6: headed and calm and making sure that my family is
Speaker 6: safe and well and that I am healthy and well,
Speaker 6: because that's important as well.
Speaker 2: Sally has invited her supporters to watch online for the
Speaker 2: live stream as Coroner Teresa O'Sullivan delivers her findings. Will
Speaker 2: be providing a link on our social pages, or you
Speaker 2: can join Sally at the Coroner's Court at Lidcombe in
Speaker 2: Sydney on Thursday February twenty nine at nine thirty am
Speaker 2: Australian Eastern Daylight saving time, Sally suggests wearing a splash
Speaker 2: of green in memory of Marion. Can you talk about
Speaker 2: the support you're getting from people around the world following
Speaker 2: you and your story.
Speaker 6: The worldwide support has been absolutely mind blowing. I never
Speaker 6: thought in a million years, by simply telling my story
Speaker 6: about my missing mum that I would have the reach
Speaker 6: that we've had and the support that has come from that.
Speaker 6: It's amazing. I am just so grateful to everybody. And
Speaker 6: I've said it many times before, but I will say
Speaker 6: again that I wouldn't have got to this point had
Speaker 6: I not had that love and support in the show
Speaker 6: of care for my mum after so long and feeling
Speaker 6: like no one really did care enough to want to
Speaker 6: help me find the answers. Recently, we had someone send
Speaker 6: us a photo of where they'd written Mom's name in
Speaker 6: the sand, and Jackie mullin if I can give her
Speaker 6: a shout out, she's in Scotland, and she came up
Speaker 6: with the idea of getting everybody to do it and
Speaker 6: sending her the photos and she would put it into
Speaker 6: a collage as such. And it's such a beautiful thing
Speaker 6: for me and my family to look at and just
Speaker 6: know that my mom does matter. And you know, I've
Speaker 6: been using the hashtag Marion matters and hashtag the missing matter,
Speaker 6: and they do matter. And it shouldn't be a case
Speaker 6: of oh well, we'll look for a little bit and
Speaker 6: we'll put it to the side. You know, they'll be right, mate,
Speaker 6: That's not the case. These people do matter.
Speaker 2: In twenty twenty three, more than fifty five thousand people
Speaker 2: were reported missing in Australia, an average of around one
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty a day. Of course, almost all were
Speaker 2: found within hours, but across the country there are two thousand,
Speaker 2: six hundred long term missing people who have not been
Speaker 2: seen for more than three months. And in the morgues
Speaker 2: there are the unidentified and the unclaimed, the remains of
Speaker 2: seven hundred and fifty sons, daughter's friends who still don't
Speaker 2: have a name.
Speaker 6: We do need to keep searching until we find the
Speaker 6: answers for them. So yeah, I'm very grateful to everybody
Speaker 6: around the world for helping me and sticking with me.
Speaker 6: And you know, after such a long journey, I mean,
Speaker 6: the podcast has been going for almost five years now
Speaker 6: and people are still popping up the same names I
Speaker 6: see who have just been here from the beginning and
Speaker 6: even following along on my mum's Facebook page, which I
Speaker 6: had started in twenty thirteen, where now you know, got
Speaker 6: thousands of people following along on those pages and through
Speaker 6: the podcast. So yeah, I am very grateful and very
Speaker 6: humbled by the whole experience. So thank you everybody. Once again.
Speaker 7: Hello, Hi Ger, how are you?
Speaker 4: Hello? Laura, loved to see.
Speaker 7: You and you too. How are you doing, Brian?
Speaker 4: I'm good. Thanks.
Speaker 2: Laura Richards, host of the Crime Analyst podcast and formerly
Speaker 2: of New Scotland. Yard has been with us from the
Speaker 2: first year. She works as a criminal behavioral analyst and
Speaker 2: has provided expert insights based on years of experience investigating
Speaker 2: high profile cases, which now includes Maring Barter's case.
Speaker 7: It must feel surreal, and you know, I cast my
Speaker 7: mind back to the first conversation I have with Alison Sandy,
Speaker 7: and there was such limited information to go on other
Speaker 7: than Sally knowing that something wasn't right and an accelerated timeline,
Speaker 7: and that accelerated timeline was the big red flag really
Speaker 7: of finding who was on that accelerated timeline of marry
Speaker 7: and changing everything in the four to six months before
Speaker 7: she left. So I think you've done a tremendous job
Speaker 7: of piecing what information you have together but throwing it
Speaker 7: out there for other people to help. And how wonderful
Speaker 7: that so many people have shared information or chase down
Speaker 7: leads and it's just been such an incredible investigation. So
Speaker 7: congratulations to you. And I'm sure it feels surreal coming
Speaker 7: up to February the twenty ninth. It's not that not
Speaker 7: that far away now, and you know, I feel the pressure.
Speaker 7: I feel nervous about what's going to happen. So Goodness
Speaker 7: knows how Sandy feels at the moment. And you and
Speaker 7: Alison and Joanie and the team that have worked just
Speaker 7: so diligently and done such an incredible job.
Speaker 2: It's a mixture of you know, excitement, anticipation and also
Speaker 2: and also dread. So first of all, you've kind of
Speaker 2: just touched on it. But what are your overall impressions
Speaker 2: of the case of the disappearance of Marion Barda in
Speaker 2: terms of other cases you've personally been involved in, or
Speaker 2: read about or followed.
Speaker 7: Yes, I mean this case is just somewhat overwhelming. Now,
Speaker 7: it's overwhelming in the amount of information that you have.
Speaker 7: But at the start, when I was asked by Alison
Speaker 7: Sandy to review the causity of information that you had
Speaker 7: that Marian had disappeared, and Sally was adamant that something
Speaker 7: had happened to her. All of the arrows point in
Speaker 7: the same direction to mister Rick Blum, and the parallels
Speaker 7: for me with Lynette Dawson. You know, it just screams
Speaker 7: out in so many parallels really to what happened to
Speaker 7: Lynette and it being a full year cold case and
Speaker 7: Hedley Thomas reinvestigating it effectively and joining the dots and
Speaker 7: creating an incredible podcast.
Speaker 2: Laura was also involved in the Teacher's Pet podcast which
Speaker 2: sheared new light on the nineteen eighty two disappearance of
Speaker 2: Sydney woman Lenet Dawson, created by journalist Hedley Thomas. The
Speaker 2: podcast ultimately led to her husband, Chris Dawson, being tried
Speaker 2: and convicted in twenty twenty two of her murder, and
Speaker 2: he is today at the age of seventy five, serving
Speaker 2: a twenty four year sentence behind bars.
Speaker 7: And with Marion's case, what you've uncovered through the Lady
Speaker 7: Vanishes is so many red flags and everything points back
Speaker 7: in one direction. There's nothing that has come up that
Speaker 7: has made me think, oh, we might have to rethink this.
Speaker 7: We might have to think, oh there's X or I
Speaker 7: or Z, and we need to pursue that because that
Speaker 7: person actually is on Marion's timeline and they're very interesting.
Speaker 7: That hasn't happened. But I have to say, from the
Speaker 7: coroner's inquest, just everything that I observed and I saw
Speaker 7: with my own eyes and heard with my ears, everything
Speaker 7: still seemed to point in one direction and that cannot
Speaker 7: be ignored. And of course at the coroner's inquest, I
Speaker 7: got to see him under pressure. I got to see
Speaker 7: when he lied, how he lied. He lied continuously, He
Speaker 7: didn't care that he was at the coroner's inquest. He
Speaker 7: lied to the police. You know, these are all sorts
Speaker 7: of things that I look to in terms of building
Speaker 7: and forming my own opinion about Rick Bloom.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the last day he gave evidence, I took the
Speaker 2: opportunity to confront Ric Bloom and let me ask you.
Speaker 2: I asked him at one point, do you feel sorry
Speaker 2: for Sally with their mum being missing for so long
Speaker 2: and the children never having nit big Gwen mother, do
Speaker 2: you feel sorry for Can you get what he said?
Speaker 7: Well, judging on how he was at the inquest. I
Speaker 7: would imagine that it became about him, that he was
Speaker 7: less interested in the impact on her, and it was
Speaker 7: much more about him than me myself and I is
Speaker 7: that what happened?
Speaker 2: Yes, Laura really does know his subject matter for the
Speaker 2: first time. Here is a snippet where you can hear
Speaker 2: exactly what happened.
Speaker 4: Hi the Rick, how are you feeling? Mate?
Speaker 2: An excerpt of that confrontation in April twenty twenty two.
Speaker 2: Until now, we've been advised not to replay the fifteen
Speaker 2: minute encounter. What do you say to SALIHI just tell
Speaker 2: me something, I'll pass it on to her. Are you
Speaker 2: sorry for Sally? Do you feel anything for her at all?
Speaker 2: She doesn't seen a month of twenty five years. Do
Speaker 2: you feel sorry for Sally just as a human being?
Speaker 2: I mean, okay, you can say I feel sorry for her,
Speaker 2: that's not incriminating.
Speaker 4: I feel sorry for me, he said, I feel sorry
Speaker 4: for me.
Speaker 7: Wow, Yes, I mean that does not surprise me at all,
Speaker 7: because what I witnessed was him trying to go oner
Speaker 7: hympathy and hympathy is very specific to men, drawing on
Speaker 7: patriarchy and how we react to men, where we're much
Speaker 7: more like so, poor guy, he's had X, Y and
Speaker 7: Z happen, whereas if a woman shows up with the
Speaker 7: same she doesn't get the same sympathy. And Kate Mann
Speaker 7: actually coined that term hympathy, and I tend to see
Speaker 7: it with PMS poor me syndrome, which I coined in
Speaker 7: twenty nineteen. But his lack of compassion and care.
Speaker 4: I just want to know what happened to her? Where
Speaker 4: is she?
Speaker 2: He is a bit more of my encounter with Bloom
Speaker 2: a couple of years ago.
Speaker 4: Is this some sort of game? You think you've gotten
Speaker 4: away with something?
Speaker 6: Oh? What does that?
Speaker 3: Man?
Speaker 2: Yes, so it's a game you've won. Bloom pulled faces.
Speaker 2: He smiled and raised his eyebrows as I spoke to him.
Speaker 2: There's no one else around, mate, man to man.
Speaker 4: When he got to the.
Speaker 2: I know you want to all the coroner in the
Speaker 2: world and the police tell me news.
Speaker 4: Thing your common mind is that because you're too clever.
Speaker 2: What's the idea?
Speaker 4: Man, I'm tired of hearing you are. Well, you'll be.
Speaker 2: Unsurprised that I don't really care what you're tired of,
Speaker 2: because I know what you are and you feel I'm targeting.
Speaker 2: You didn't you understand how those women feel? Will do
Speaker 2: you understand how the women felt? Remember, Rick Bloom has
Speaker 2: never apologized to any of his victims, despite admitting he
Speaker 2: lied about his identity and his family in order to
Speaker 2: have fraudulent sexual relationships with them. Laura Richards specializes in
Speaker 2: coercive control, domestic abuse, and risk assessment, and she has
Speaker 2: developed a profile of mister Bloom.
Speaker 7: You know, Brian, with all the proliferation of true crime,
Speaker 7: and then you know the where we see so many documentaries,
Speaker 7: you often hear people say on documentaries and so forth,
Speaker 7: they talk about victims and they say, oh, her smile
Speaker 7: would light up the room.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 7: They tend to say positive things about the victim and
Speaker 7: airbrush out the negatives. What I witness with Rick Blum
Speaker 7: is he did the exact opposite. At every opportunity, he
Speaker 7: said something negative about Marion, that she was sexually promiscuous,
Speaker 7: she was a sex addict. You know, he just said
Speaker 7: she was insatiable. He just said so many derogatory things
Speaker 7: about her that showed a callous disregard and I felt
Speaker 7: that that was very intentioned to upset Sally and the family.
Speaker 2: The big question of course, is what will the coroner
Speaker 2: find in relation to Rick Bloom, if anything, and will
Speaker 2: she recommend the Director of Public Prosecutions consider charging him
Speaker 2: with a crime or crimes, and if so, what might
Speaker 2: they be.
Speaker 7: So some of the major things for me having written
Speaker 7: reports like this for court and with the reminder that
Speaker 7: circumstantial evidence is just as compelling and just as strong
Speaker 7: as direct physical evidence, and many cases are built on
Speaker 7: circumstantial evidence alone. I know you know that. But oftentimes
Speaker 7: people will think, well, there's no body and there's no
Speaker 7: direct physical evidence, therefore there's no case. But that is
Speaker 7: absolutely not true. We know with Lynette Dawson, for example,
Speaker 7: sadly her body has never been recovered. There will probably
Speaker 7: never be an a mission from Chris Dawson given his psychopathology.
Speaker 7: But the judge still found that there were so many
Speaker 7: pieces of circumstantial evidence it all pointed in one direction.
Speaker 7: And I feel similarly, we may not ever find Marion's body.
Speaker 7: I hope we do, and I hope that the trip
Speaker 7: that Sally and Joni are going to take to Japan
Speaker 7: and so forth, I hote that they do uncover some
Speaker 7: answers there. But for me that one of the most
Speaker 7: compelling aspects to the case of the fact is the
Speaker 7: fact that Rick Blum lied when he was asked by
Speaker 7: the police in June twenty twenty one did he know
Speaker 7: Marian He said no, and he changed his story the
Speaker 7: next day and said that he did know her. Then
Speaker 7: he later reveals he didn't on that police interview share
Speaker 7: that he had a relationship with her. He later revealed that,
Speaker 7: and when he was challenged about that relationship, which was
Speaker 7: a sexual relationship, he tried to distance himself from that
Speaker 7: relationship and said it was just sex. So you've got
Speaker 7: three changes of story, but that's not all. He also
Speaker 7: said in February twenty twenty two that he didn't know
Speaker 7: what happened to her, and then later on he says that, oh,
Speaker 7: he read somewhere that Queensland police felt that she had
Speaker 7: joined a cult and that she was strange. And he
Speaker 7: starts to sew in all these other narratives about men
Speaker 7: that she may or may not have been with, from
Speaker 7: motorcyclists to teachers, to Korean men to a pilot, I mean,
Speaker 7: all sorts of men that apparently he's only had sex
Speaker 7: with her three times, but he knows all these details.
Speaker 7: So he's trying to distance himself from her, But later
Speaker 7: on in June twenty twenty three, he says at the
Speaker 7: inquest that she told him she wanted nothing more to
Speaker 7: do with her family, So he changes the story again
Speaker 7: to fit with the facts of the case. If he
Speaker 7: were innocent, why would he do that. That's the question
Speaker 7: that has to be answered first and foremost that with
Speaker 7: somebody who's innocent, they have no need to lie.
Speaker 2: Another key piece of circumstantial evidence is the trips mister
Speaker 2: Bloom and Mary and talk in nineteen ninety seven when
Speaker 2: she disappeared, both heading to Europe at the same time.
Speaker 2: Mister Bloom confirming he stayed at the Hotel Nico in Narrita,
Speaker 2: Japan in transit, and Marian writing to Sally using paper
Speaker 2: with the letterhead Hotel Nico Narita.
Speaker 7: Yes, and that paper is very significant because we know
Speaker 7: he was there. We know they on the timeline, which
Speaker 7: again is very significant. They both leave Australia within the
Speaker 7: same window of time, a few days, within a few
Speaker 7: days of each other. He goes to Japan, she he
Speaker 7: stays at that particular hotel, Hotel Nico in Narita. Diane
Speaker 7: talks to that trip and him flying to Japan at
Speaker 7: that time at the inquest, and we know that Marion
Speaker 7: wrote to Sally on that letterhead Hotel Nico in Narrita,
Speaker 7: the letter head when she's in England. Why would she
Speaker 7: choose that letter head? I mean a how would she
Speaker 7: get hold? And I suspect she did spend time in
Speaker 7: Japan because she talked about spending time in the East
Speaker 7: and having too much luggage. Whereas if you're in transit
Speaker 7: and her luggage had just gone through, maybe she's not
Speaker 7: in a direct flight, but she wouldn't be picking up
Speaker 7: her luggage and having to do battle carrying it all,
Speaker 7: et cetera. But she talks about spending time in the East.
Speaker 7: There was Jenny mentioned that she had written down on
Speaker 7: some of her passport information that she was going to Japan,
Speaker 7: and then she writes to Sally on that letterhead. And
Speaker 7: I felt on reflection that that letterhead was meaningful. It
Speaker 7: doesn't just place them together, it's meaningful to Marian. So
Speaker 7: does that mean that they got married, for example, in Japan?
Speaker 7: And I don't know the answer to that, but I
Speaker 7: did notice when I was open sourcing that hotel they
Speaker 7: do do and they did do weddings, So is it possible.
Speaker 7: You know, why would she write to Sally on that letterhead.
Speaker 7: When you're abroad, you sometimes do things that connect you
Speaker 7: to the people that you'd love. And I feel on
Speaker 7: reflection that that was some kind of message that she felt.
Speaker 7: She couldn't say what she had done, but she wanted
Speaker 7: there to be a connection through using that letterhead, and
Speaker 7: it would not surprise me if they had married there,
Speaker 7: and that potentially there was some carrot dangled about, you know,
Speaker 7: let's go abroad, let's get married. You can buy a school,
Speaker 7: or we're buy a school, and this was sort of
Speaker 7: the carrot that was being dangled, and in Marion's mind
Speaker 7: that all sounded fantastic and very romantic, and.
Speaker 2: She would potentially have been missus fernand Ramagil at that time.
Speaker 4: Yes, the id to register a marriage in that night.
Speaker 7: Yes, it's possible, and I think that that has to
Speaker 7: be really pursued. If they can be tied together, more
Speaker 7: so from another coroborating, third party source, I think that
Speaker 7: will be very compelling. At the moment, it's still compelling
Speaker 7: to me because it means that he knew what was
Speaker 7: in her head and she's writing on a letter head
Speaker 7: that only he would have had access to, so it
Speaker 7: puts them together. Of course, going to Tunbridge Wells. I
Speaker 7: mean that was another very significant point to me knowing
Speaker 7: the UK, knowing Tumbridge Wells. It's just not that destination
Speaker 7: where you're going to put a pin in the map
Speaker 7: and say the trip of my lifetime. First place when
Speaker 7: I get out of London, I'm going to go to
Speaker 7: Tunbridge Wells, said no one. Ever.
Speaker 2: Then there is the police interview with mister Bloom in
Speaker 2: September twenty twenty one, conducted by Detective Senior Constables Seneschho
Speaker 2: Pinazza and Lisa Pisodo.
Speaker 7: It wasn't necessarily the two hour, twenty one minute interview
Speaker 7: that was that all took place of you know, and
Speaker 7: I felt, you know, unfortunately by or was conducted by
Speaker 7: officers who probably didn't really understand who they had before them.
Speaker 7: And it's a common thing that I see, particularly with
Speaker 7: coercive controllers and manipulators, that oftentimes the police don't have
Speaker 7: the measure of who they are.
Speaker 2: In the last few minutes of the interview, do you
Speaker 2: see Pinazza asks mister Bloom, did you kill Marian Bada.
Speaker 7: And he answered the question with a question, and when
Speaker 7: somebody does that on an interview or an interrogation, it's
Speaker 7: always an indicator of deception or buying time. If you
Speaker 7: didn't kill the person you're being asked about, it's just
Speaker 7: a straight no and being very declarative, absolute about it.
Speaker 7: He wasn't, and when he was asked again, it was no,
Speaker 7: no fading facts. And then when he was asked did
Speaker 7: he harm marry and he said I harm no one.
Speaker 7: So he didn't directly answer the question, which was avoidance,
Speaker 7: but more so when he thought the camera was turned
Speaker 7: off when Sergeant Constable Pinatzer, I think it was lent over.
Speaker 7: He thought the camera had been turned off. Then the
Speaker 7: expletive came when the officer had left the room, and
Speaker 7: he was really frustrated and angry and said the f
Speaker 7: bomb that was missed. And when the officer came back
Speaker 7: into the room, his demeanor changed again and he went
Speaker 7: back to the bundling old man who's trying to be helpful. Well,
Speaker 7: that was leakage and that was the point where he
Speaker 7: was under pressure and it was a huge missed opportunity.
Speaker 7: That's the moment that you wait for and you want
Speaker 7: the follow up, and unfortunately in this case, the follow
Speaker 7: up questions weren't asked.
Speaker 2: And there is the way mister Bloom talks about women,
Speaker 2: especially the women he has admitted lying to.
Speaker 7: Some of them. He tried to get them to sell
Speaker 7: their homes, the lure of something better and marrying and
Speaker 7: moving abroad, the ruses that he used. There's similarities there.
Speaker 7: And then when the women don't do what he wants,
Speaker 7: he then in some cases turns nasty. So we know
Speaker 7: that there's another site. And when I say nasty, the threats,
Speaker 7: the things that Jeanette went through, where he's trying to
Speaker 7: damage her professionally and throwing things on her lawn and
Speaker 7: trying to destroy these are the sorts of things I
Speaker 7: would expect from someone like him. And that's why it's
Speaker 7: very important to pay attention to the other women of
Speaker 7: what they say about him when he don't when they
Speaker 7: don't do what he wants.
Speaker 2: Well, that's one of the very telling things about rig Blum.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think of him as Willie Woods in
Speaker 2: my head. Rig Bloom is just.
Speaker 4: The last in a long list of names with the aliases.
Speaker 2: But I mean Jeanette Gatney and he took nuke photographs
Speaker 2: of her and threatened to disinminate and to her friends
Speaker 2: in a church congregation. Just on the way he spoke
Speaker 2: about women, Laura, it's how would you describe this man?
Speaker 2: He said that Jeanette was a drunk, Marion was a
Speaker 2: sexth graze predator, Jeanette Oldenburg was a stupid woman who
Speaker 2: thought she could launch a belly down in Korea in
Speaker 2: Europe at the age of fifty one. His daughter Evelyn,
Speaker 2: he told her that she'd have to sell her body
Speaker 2: because she had no brains and no talent. He said
Speaker 2: that Andre Flomer was sitting in a wheelchair, stupefied and demented.
Speaker 2: Every single woman he mentioned, even his own wife. He
Speaker 2: denigrated her and came up with a childhood condition that
Speaker 2: he said, meant that she basically was an idiot.
Speaker 4: And couldn't remember.
Speaker 2: The way he talks about women is consistent and awful.
Speaker 2: But what does it tell us about him? And what
Speaker 2: does it tell us about what might have happened in
Speaker 2: this case?
Speaker 7: Yes, will it tells us that he doesn't value women
Speaker 7: very much, and he doesn't like women very much. But
Speaker 7: more so, it's everybody else's fault. It's all of them
Speaker 7: not him, and the fact that he called them all liars.
Speaker 7: I thought that was very interesting, and saying that the
Speaker 7: order women got together through the Lady Vanish's podcast. But
Speaker 7: of course each woman bal Monique I think it was,
Speaker 7: had reported him to various authorities and police, so there
Speaker 7: was a record of them reporting. So we know that
Speaker 7: they weren't liars, but we know that he is. And
Speaker 7: really it just shows again that he's a misogynist and
Speaker 7: he leans into these sexist tropes about women and stereotypes
Speaker 7: about women. If you say a woman's a drunk or crazy,
Speaker 7: therefore you devalue them, you discredit them. They don't matter anymore.
Speaker 7: But what's interesting about Marion is when listening to Sally
Speaker 7: and others who knew her talk about victimology, Sally was
Speaker 7: very clear that she probably would have confronted Rick Blum.
Speaker 7: Let's say, you know, they got they did get married
Speaker 7: or somehow. Let's take what he said with a grain
Speaker 7: of salt. But he said that they broke up. Now
Speaker 7: he didn't say what happened after they broke up. But
Speaker 7: Marian was the only one who had changed everything. She
Speaker 7: had changed her name, and she had given up everything
Speaker 7: she'd gone overseas. She was in a very vulnerable state
Speaker 7: by doing that, everything was in secret. There is a
Speaker 7: scenario and one that I believe occurred, which is that
Speaker 7: they did break up and Marian possibly found out he
Speaker 7: was married. Most likely would have challenged him and been
Speaker 7: angry about him leading her on a merry dance, because
Speaker 7: that's what it was. So what's he like when things
Speaker 7: don't go his way? We've seen some flashes of that,
Speaker 7: haven't we? Through what Jeanette said, She even took out
Speaker 7: the equivalent of a restraining order. She was so scared
Speaker 7: of him. Evelyn said she was really scared of him,
Speaker 7: that she just had this physical sense and felt with
Speaker 7: the champagne bottle he was trying to kill her. Women
Speaker 7: know these things. We can just be in the physical
Speaker 7: presence of a man who gives a look or behaves
Speaker 7: in a certain way, we get the message. We know
Speaker 7: what the microaggression means. What happened with Marion and Rick Blum?
Speaker 7: Did she challenge him? Did she say she was going
Speaker 7: to out him? She was going to tell everybody what happened.
Speaker 7: And it's possible that she wouldn't have stood for you've
Speaker 7: taken my money, You've taken everything from me and you've
Speaker 7: made a fall of me, And he may well have
Speaker 7: wanted to hide what went on and disappear her, and
Speaker 7: I think that's the most likely scenario, given what we
Speaker 7: know behaviorally from other people who talked about him. When
Speaker 7: things don't go the way that he wants. There's a
Speaker 7: very different side to Rick Blum than the bumbling grandpa
Speaker 7: character that he's trying to present at the coroner's court.
Speaker 7: And we know that the women haven't lied. We know
Speaker 7: through their testimony what they're saying is credible, it matches
Speaker 7: up with police records and so forth. So I think
Speaker 7: we've got somebody who would if challenged, they would not
Speaker 7: like it. And he may well that could have been.
Speaker 7: You know, the difference between Marion and the other women.
Speaker 7: I know she has a difficult decision to make, but
Speaker 7: based on the facts and the evidence, if you can
Speaker 7: see the wood through the trees and look to what
Speaker 7: the circumstantial evidence is, I believe that there is enough
Speaker 7: and I believe that that would be the ultimate outcome
Speaker 7: for the DPP, the case to be referred to the
Speaker 7: DPP and that decision to be made. And the money
Speaker 7: is another one. You know, I always said that follow
Speaker 7: the money. There's still a lot to be done around
Speaker 7: the financial side of investigation, so you know, I still
Speaker 7: feel there's stones to unturn and to follow lines of investigation.
Speaker 2: And Gary Sheen, who was the investigator on this from
Speaker 2: two thousand and nine up to twenty nineteen, when we
Speaker 2: started the podcast, he said he checked all the coins
Speaker 2: lad in New South Wales driver's.
Speaker 4: Licenses looking for that name, the name that Marian had adopted.
Speaker 4: Why did they miss it? Why didn't they find it?
Speaker 2: How much time and evidence did we lose because they
Speaker 2: didn't get that license?
Speaker 4: It was just sitting there.
Speaker 7: Yes, and I think there are many of those. Are
Speaker 7: be diplomatic and call them missed opportunities. I'd call them
Speaker 7: something else, off Mike, But What the Lady Vanishes has
Speaker 7: shown that if you are tenacious, you can look at
Speaker 7: a line of inquiry and think that it's a dead end,
Speaker 7: but actually most lines of investigation are not dead ends.
Speaker 7: You just have to see it through and put some
Speaker 7: grit into it. And it takes You've got to roll
Speaker 7: your sleeves up. It takes work, and that's what you
Speaker 7: all did. And I think there are so many missed
Speaker 7: opportunities in this case and the way that Sally has
Speaker 7: been treated is you know, I listened to her in December.
Speaker 7: She was in LA and we got together and she
Speaker 7: was telling me more about the journey that she's been on.
Speaker 7: And I ran multiple units across my decade of working
Speaker 7: and I feel that at every turn she's had a
Speaker 7: door slammed in her face, heard horror stories. It's not
Speaker 7: just New Southwest Police, many other police services too, but
Speaker 7: particularly about the way women are treated. And they've got
Speaker 7: to start up in their game. You know, women. The
Speaker 7: femicide rate is through the roof at the moment, not
Speaker 7: just in Queensland and in New South Wales, but in
Speaker 7: the UK and America. And when women go missing, it
Speaker 7: should be looked at rigorously and all lines of investigation
Speaker 7: should be pursued. And when you've got a case where
Speaker 7: you've got someone very obvious who pops up and they
Speaker 7: haven't done that. And I'm talking about all police forces
Speaker 7: now with regards to mister Rick Bloom, because he's been
Speaker 7: given a pass by so many and I'm talking about Europe,
Speaker 7: I'm talking about immigration in Australia, who should have had
Speaker 7: him flagged straight away. He shouldn't have even been in
Speaker 7: Australia to even have that relationship with Marion.
Speaker 4: There's questionsenship, yeah.
Speaker 7: Exactly, and there's questions to be asked about how his
Speaker 7: word has counted for so much and yet all the
Speaker 7: women who've reported him have just been fobbed off. And
Speaker 7: even Evelin who had that bottle, who everything she felt
Speaker 7: there was that he was trying to poison her. So
Speaker 7: I always flipped the script with cases as to you know,
Speaker 7: what's the learning here and the learning for me, you know,
Speaker 7: having run the homicide prevention unit, you know I say
Speaker 7: things now I would never have said back in the day,
Speaker 7: but misogyny and patriarchy player role and women should be
Speaker 7: taken seriously. Each of the women who reported were all
Speaker 7: fobbed off, and the police officers, even in New South
Speaker 7: Wales when they interviewed Rick Blum, they had no idea
Speaker 7: who they were dealing with. And actually in Brian at
Speaker 7: New Scotland Yard, I had multiple slides in my presentations
Speaker 7: where I would show hundreds of offenders who went on
Speaker 7: to become serial killers, who were all interviewed by police
Speaker 7: before they killed, And my header was do you really
Speaker 7: know who you're dealing with, question mark, because each time
Speaker 7: they interview these men and they think they sound, you know,
Speaker 7: all right blokes, and it's because they're not asking the
Speaker 7: right questions. And if you start to ask the right
Speaker 7: questions and you're curious and you believe you know the
Speaker 7: victim that's come forward, you can actually identify these individuals
Speaker 7: far earlier on. And someone like Rick Bluhm. I believe
Speaker 7: that there were so many windows of opportunity to identify
Speaker 7: what a dangerous individual he was and still is, because
Speaker 7: I don't believe that risk dissipates with age. I've never
Speaker 7: seen that in the cases that I've worked that once
Speaker 7: you get to seventy or eighty, you're no longer a risk.
Speaker 7: With someone you know who's a psychopath, they will always
Speaker 7: be a risk always, And with someone at this exploitative
Speaker 7: and controlling and his desire to control the narrative has
Speaker 7: shown that he is capable of doing anything in order
Speaker 7: to get his way, and there for it has to
Speaker 7: be taken seriously in terms of his behavior and can't
Speaker 7: just be in my opinion, opinion notched up to oh,
Speaker 7: he's a bit old now and is there any point
Speaker 7: as I keep hearing people say that narrative to Sally.
Speaker 7: Of course there's a point, there's a point to all
Speaker 7: the women that he has harmed, and there has to
Speaker 7: be accountability. That's what the criminal justice system is there for.
Speaker 7: And therefore I hope that it is taken seriously in
Speaker 7: terms of what the coroner has to you know, cut
Speaker 7: through the noise. That's the only way I can say it.
Speaker 7: It's like cutting through the noise of all the information
Speaker 7: that exists and everything that was presented at the coroner's inquest.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know she was going to give her
Speaker 2: findings nearly eighteen months ago, and then we found two
Speaker 2: more victims in Europe through the podcast, and she did
Speaker 2: the right thing and delayed in findings, and they, as
Speaker 2: you said, gave evidence and pilling of it. I mean
Speaker 2: he was engaged to July which he lied about on
Speaker 2: the stand. I wasn't produced the engagement notice that Julian
Speaker 2: had made up to invite friends and family.
Speaker 4: I mean, the pattern is undeniable.
Speaker 2: Where would you put rick woman in the panthe and
Speaker 2: of convin who prey on women?
Speaker 7: Well, I think it's much more than being a comm man.
Speaker 7: And I've always said that the John Meehan's you know
Speaker 7: Dirty John Rick Blum, this is about power and control,
Speaker 7: and this is about you know, power control related crimes.
Speaker 7: It puts you up there as top level master manipulator
Speaker 7: and enjoying that parent control over people and taking it
Speaker 7: too far. It's not just about getting money, it's about
Speaker 7: utter domination. And like with John Meehern, and I suspect
Speaker 7: with Rick Blum, there's psychopathy there. They don't have the
Speaker 7: capacity to feel empathy. They just see people as what
Speaker 7: they can use up. They see them as targets of
Speaker 7: what they can use up. And of course women tend
Speaker 7: to be much more malleable in terms of the types
Speaker 7: of targets that John Meehan went for, or Rick Blum
Speaker 7: and the lack of compassion or cair These are men
Speaker 7: who are meant to like these women, but what they
Speaker 7: show is the exact opposite as you describe the things
Speaker 7: that he said. So, you know, we have to take
Speaker 7: cases like this seriously. And I would like Rick Blum
Speaker 7: to be assessed for psychopathy, and I think he's a
Speaker 7: very dangerous individual. Charm is one of the traits of
Speaker 7: a psychopath. So I try and help them understand what
Speaker 7: the traits will be. And you know, indirectly looking at
Speaker 7: Rick Blum's behavior, and I haven't assessed him directly, but
Speaker 7: indirectly from what others have said who know him well,
Speaker 7: he certainly has some significant traits, you know, serious levels
Speaker 7: of traits which are indicators of psychopathy.
Speaker 4: And just lastly, Laura, do you think we'll ever find
Speaker 4: actually find Mary.
Speaker 7: I hope so. I mean I hope for Sally and
Speaker 7: for the family. I hope that they do find out
Speaker 7: what happened and they are able to recover Marian and
Speaker 7: be able to say goodbye to her properly. If that
Speaker 7: doesn't happen, well, I hope that they have a place
Speaker 7: where they can go to where they can talk to
Speaker 7: Marian and be able to lay her to rest. I mean,
Speaker 7: that's what every family member wants when something like this happens.
Speaker 7: And I just feel that Sally has just been such
Speaker 7: an incredible force, asking questions and never giving up, and
Speaker 7: I hope those answers. I hope they are revealed. I
Speaker 7: doubt they will ever come from him, but I think
Speaker 7: from doing the digging, and you know, she wants to
Speaker 7: follow it through to every possible stone being unturned. To
Speaker 7: get to that answer, and I just want to thank
Speaker 7: you for the work that you have done and the
Speaker 7: support that you've given Sally and Alison and the team.
Speaker 7: The Lady Vanishes is really an incredible investigative podcast, which
Speaker 7: is what I tell people to listen to all the
Speaker 7: time if they want to understand the case. And then
Speaker 7: of course my twelve episode series is really a companion
Speaker 7: to that. So yes, I think about marrying often and
Speaker 7: I hope that we do get answers on the twenty
Speaker 7: ninth that are that feel that feel like a step
Speaker 7: in the right direction.
Speaker 2: And your podcast analysis of our case was very good.
Speaker 2: Just remind people where they can listen to that.
Speaker 7: So Crime Analyst it's a twelve episode series. You can
Speaker 7: listen to it on all your podcast apps wherever you
Speaker 7: get your podcast, Spotify, Apple, you can even go on
Speaker 7: the Crime Analyst website which is just crime hyphen the Analysts.
Speaker 7: So it should be available to everyone in Australia and
Speaker 7: all over the world. So please do listen and have
Speaker 7: Marian and Sally in your thoughts.
Speaker 4: Thank Laura, thank you so much.
Speaker 7: It's a pleasure.
Speaker 1: We also have an update on the grave of a
Speaker 1: Lona Kinsel Lum's third wife, who died mysteriously in nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy seven. After some effort, we were successful in having
Speaker 1: the ownership of a Loner's Plot transferred from a former husband,
Speaker 1: Michael Reid, to her daughter Evelyn. It continues to amaze
Speaker 1: us how much this podcast has resonated with listeners and
Speaker 1: with women, particularly. Not long ago, we received this email
Speaker 1: from a self described survivor still looking for love at
Speaker 1: age seventy to.
Speaker 8: I've only recently discovered your podcast and I'm spending hours
Speaker 8: listening to it. I was a victim of an online
Speaker 8: romance scam in twenty seventeen, so your story is helping
Speaker 8: me understand what happened to me at that time. I'm
Speaker 8: embarrassed and ashamed and have never divulged the huge financial
Speaker 8: loss to anyone in my family. It caused me to
Speaker 8: feel suicidal, and I sought help from my doctor, who
Speaker 8: prescribed medication, which has helped. I'm in such a better place,
Speaker 8: but feel it could have been handled better when reported
Speaker 8: to the authorities. Marian's story resonates with me in many ways,
Speaker 8: and I realized I had a lucky escape. I'm devastated
Speaker 8: for all the victims whose reports are not taken seriously.
Speaker 8: I hope you find out what happened to Varian and
Speaker 8: that the perpetrator is punished. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Now to some big news. At Sally's request, we've agreed
Speaker 1: to wind up The Lady Vanish's podcast once the inquest
Speaker 1: findings are delivered. It's the right time. Episode fifty seven,
Speaker 1: our next episode will also be our last.
Speaker 2: For everyone involved. It's been tumultuous and at times exhausting,
Speaker 2: but thank you to our loyal listeners for coming along
Speaker 2: for the ride. Sal and super Sleuth Joni are about
Speaker 2: to embark on their own mission of discovery with a
Speaker 2: series of speaking engagements and trips, and we wish them well.
Speaker 2: While there'll be no more episodes, we will keep you
Speaker 2: posted if there are any big developments.
Speaker 1: However, we couldn't leave without a parting gift for you all.
Speaker 1: The team. Brian Seymour, Sally Ills, Mark Wright and I
Speaker 1: have written a book titled The Lady Vanishers. It is
Speaker 1: the story of this podcast. It's a condensed version of
Speaker 1: what we've revealed over the past five years, with some
Speaker 1: extra details we couldn't release, and a detailed look behind
Speaker 1: the scenes of what has been an incredible and unique journey.
Speaker 2: So for the many listeners who have reached out trying
Speaker 2: to remember when they hurt certain pieces of evidence, all
Speaker 2: of the vital clues will now be easily accessible. Publisher
Speaker 2: Harper Collins will launch The Lady Vanishers the book on
Speaker 2: May fifteenth. If you're after a copy of the first
Speaker 2: print edition, it's available for pre order now.
Speaker 1: For every sale via independent bookseller Schoolworks Supplies, ten percent
Speaker 1: will be donated to the go fund me account of
Speaker 1: Guilaine Dubois Danlis, one of rip Blum's victims who was
Speaker 1: duped of her life savings. Details on how to do
Speaker 1: this are in the show notes. Gilaine is now eighty nine,
Speaker 1: living meagerly in France, but finding joy in the simple things.
Speaker 7: It's very kind of you.
Speaker 4: I can see it.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 7: Look do you understand well?
Speaker 1: I just am glad we can do something for you.
Speaker 7: Thank you, Thank you very much.
Speaker 9: It's from my heart that I thank you.
Speaker 1: I saw the toll it took on you, the line
Speaker 1: it would have caused you discomfort.
Speaker 7: Thank you, thank you very much. It was really difficult.
Speaker 9: Yes, you are right, but I'm still living. I am Alexandra,
Speaker 9: a man other of my children, grandchildren. They are loving
Speaker 9: me and it makes hope to continue to live. I
Speaker 9: do my best to stay in life because you know
Speaker 9: this year I will be in August, I will be.
Speaker 2: Ninety years old.
Speaker 9: I hope we will see us in Belgium.
Speaker 1: This year, or like you want, I would like that
Speaker 1: we'll be back soon for one last time with the
Speaker 1: long awaited findings of the inquest into the disappearance of
Speaker 1: Marion Barter.
Speaker 2: If you knew Marian or have any information about her
Speaker 2: or her whereabouts, we'd love to hear from you. Our
Speaker 2: website is sevennews dot com dot au, slash news slash
Speaker 2: the Lady Vanishers, and you can also message us here.
Speaker 2: You can also send us an anonymous tip at the
Speaker 2: Lady Vanishers dot org. If you like what you're hearing,
Speaker 2: don't forget to subscribe. Please rate and review our series.
Speaker 2: It helps new listeners find us. Presenter and executive producer
Speaker 2: Alison Sandy, investigative journalist Brian Seymour, writer and producer Sally Yields.
Speaker 2: Sound design Mark Wright, graphics Jason Blandford, Translation and transcripts
Speaker 2: Estel Sanchez. The theme and much of the music by
Speaker 2: Nicholas Gasparini at the Darkpiano dot com. Thanks again to
Speaker 2: the Alliance Francais. This is a seven News production.