Speaker 1: So if I believe that I'm a failure, or if
Speaker 1: I believe I can't do it, if I hold really
Speaker 1: tightly onto that thought, it might mean that I don't
Speaker 1: put my hand up for a promotion or I don't
Speaker 1: set goals. That might be a little bit out of age.
Speaker 2: My guest today is clinical psychologist doctor Emily Musgrove. You
Speaker 2: might know her as doctor M, the residents psychologist on
Speaker 2: The Imperfect podcast, Australia's top mental health podcast with millions
Speaker 2: of loyal listeners. Doctor M is also the author of
Speaker 2: the new book Unstuck, and in this episode, we'll be
Speaker 2: discussing how you can identify and get in touch with
Speaker 2: your values to quite radically change your life.
Speaker 1: Values are like heading west. We never get there. It
Speaker 1: is just an ongoing direction to kind of return to.
Speaker 2: How does it show up in therapy when you're the
Speaker 2: therapist that someone is either not in touch with their
Speaker 2: values or is living out of alignment with them.
Speaker 1: Usually it will be.
Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals
Speaker 2: and strategies for optimizing your date. I'm your host, doctor
Speaker 2: Amantha imber So. I want to start by talking about
Speaker 2: therapy because in the book. You mentioned that you've seen
Speaker 2: quite a few different therapists, and as have I, and
Speaker 2: I always think, how does a therapist go about picking
Speaker 2: the right therapist for them? What was your process?
Speaker 1: I mean, it's tough because the people that I would
Speaker 1: normally refer like friends and colleagues to, I wouldn't be
Speaker 1: able to see because they like they are my friends
Speaker 1: or they're my peers. So certainly with my most recent
Speaker 1: it's been asking other psychologists who they would recommend, So
Speaker 1: it's kind of gone one step further, I suppose. But
Speaker 1: for me, I also wanted to work with like this
Speaker 1: is particularly for my most it's like I'm saying, many
Speaker 1: of them.
Speaker 2: This person I've.
Speaker 1: Seen on and off over the last couple of years,
Speaker 1: and she uses a schema approach, which is not my
Speaker 1: area of specialty. You know, I have some training in it,
Speaker 1: but it's certainly not my kind of treatment modality that
Speaker 1: I would use in depth. And so I really wanted
Speaker 1: to work with someone that was going to work from
Speaker 1: a different lens that I usually work with myself. And
Speaker 1: it's been I mean, it's been so helpful, but fundamentally,
Speaker 1: like as you would know, like the treatment approach is
Speaker 1: one thing, but it's the relationship with that therapist that's
Speaker 1: probably more profound than anything else.
Speaker 3: I think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I always feel like those first few sessions are
Speaker 2: quite hard in terms of, oh my gosh, I have
Speaker 2: to give my whole history all over again, and is
Speaker 2: it worth it, and like how many sessions do you
Speaker 2: give it? Personally to go, Yeah, this relationship with this
Speaker 2: new therapist or psychologist is absolutely working. And I also
Speaker 2: think for listeners, like how long should people be giving it?
Speaker 1: I think it can kind of go one of two ways.
Speaker 1: I think sometimes you can get a vibe straight away,
Speaker 1: like in the same way that you know, like I
Speaker 1: think if we can be attuned to the feeling tone
Speaker 1: that's there between you and another person, I think we
Speaker 1: can pay attention to that. But from a therapeutic point
Speaker 1: of view, I would say at least two sessions because
Speaker 1: also sometimes you know, if we're like in a first session,
Speaker 1: if I just get a really strong reaction, it could
Speaker 1: be one of two things, Like it could be like
Speaker 1: I'm getting a reaction to my own stuff or I'm
Speaker 1: having a reaction to this person not being the right fit.
Speaker 1: So I think sometimes that takes a bit of time
Speaker 1: to kind of disentangle, you know, with my therapist. So
Speaker 1: I really had a very strong sense straight straight away.
Speaker 1: But equally, I think it depends what you're coming in with,
Speaker 1: and sometimes it might take a few sessions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how do you know when it's time to finish
Speaker 2: a therapeutic relationship.
Speaker 1: From the angle of being the therapist or being the client,
Speaker 1: I would love both angles. Yeah, it's interesting. So as
Speaker 1: from a therapist point of view, you know, in an
Speaker 1: ideal world is that you know, we might have frequent
Speaker 1: sessions and then we're reviewing as we're going and looking
Speaker 1: at kind of the goals that we're setting and how
Speaker 1: that's sitting, and then that might expand to like monthly
Speaker 1: or you know, kind of maybe checking in every few months.
Speaker 1: But I think the question is, you know, what am
Speaker 1: I getting out of this and what purpose is this serving?
Speaker 1: You know, is this actually becoming more of a like
Speaker 1: that I really enjoy my time here, or is it
Speaker 1: this this is actually inviting our work and reflection. And
Speaker 1: I think that if it's just like it's nice to
Speaker 1: catch up, that's probably probably a bit of a warning
Speaker 1: signs time to stop. But equally, like, on the other hand,
Speaker 1: you know, if it feels like you're going over the
Speaker 1: same ground again and again, and there's a sense of
Speaker 1: feeling like nothing is changing. I think that that is
Speaker 1: such an opportunity. Like I always remember this term from
Speaker 1: early in my career or training, like it's all gris
Speaker 1: for the mill, Like if something isn't working, I'm always
Speaker 1: really encouraging of clients to tell me like, if this
Speaker 1: is not feeling right, let's explore why that is. And
Speaker 1: if it is that there's a therapeut issue between you
Speaker 1: and I, then it may be something that we can
Speaker 1: either work through or that it would be the best
Speaker 1: interest of them to see someone else. So this kind
Speaker 1: of you know, we can end treatment because we're now
Speaker 1: doing really well, or we can end treatment because it
Speaker 1: might be in the best interests of them to see
Speaker 1: someone else. For me as an individual, as a client,
Speaker 1: I think it would be like again, this kind of
Speaker 1: questioning is like what am I getting out of this?
Speaker 1: Is it serving me? Am I still on track to
Speaker 1: those kind of original goals or do I just really enjoy.
Speaker 3: Having a chat or like checking in with them?
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, good advice.
Speaker 2: I grew up with a mum that was a clinical
Speaker 2: psychologist and she's still in private practice, and I think
Speaker 2: in large part that's what inspired me to become a psychologist.
Speaker 2: I went down the organizational psychology route. Like my main
Speaker 2: reason for doing that is that I would see the
Speaker 2: work that my mum does, and she specializes in oncology patients,
Speaker 2: so it's pretty intense work. And I would always think
Speaker 2: to myself, how do you detach emotionally at the end
Speaker 2: of the day, and when I assume, because I think
Speaker 2: if you pursue a career in psychology. Certainly, back when
Speaker 2: I was doing my studies, clinicals like was everything and
Speaker 2: the other fields of psychology like we're very not really
Speaker 2: known about h and I always thought, how would I
Speaker 2: do that at the end of a really emotionally draining day,
Speaker 2: And I would love to know what is your process?
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I am quite deliberate about that. And it's
Speaker 1: also why I don't like working from home. I very
Speaker 1: rarely will work from home. If I'm doing telehealth, I
Speaker 1: like to come into my office. So there's like a
Speaker 1: real kind of sense of a boundary there. If I
Speaker 1: am getting in the car and driving home, I make
Speaker 1: a very deliberate point of not having anything on the
Speaker 1: radio or listening to anything. It feels like it's just
Speaker 1: a sensory overload. I've been listening all day and reflecting
Speaker 1: and analyzing, so it feels like I need a quiet.
Speaker 1: So then I'm kind of re entering the next part
Speaker 1: of my day where my role is different. So I'm
Speaker 1: coming in as mum and partner and whatever other roles
Speaker 1: there might be. And I do have this This is
Speaker 1: probably very similar for many people. They have to get
Speaker 1: changed immediately. Like I can't sit in my work clothes
Speaker 1: just a normal close for any longer than a second.
Speaker 1: It's like I need to shed that part. So I think,
Speaker 1: like symbolically even that is something. But I do definitely
Speaker 1: do like try and have a space of meditation or
Speaker 1: breath work kind of at a transition point after work
Speaker 1: that I think feels really like pretty integral. I think
Speaker 1: in terms of kind of holding almost like being accountable
Speaker 1: to what I'm talking about in therapy, but also being
Speaker 1: able to let go of some of the stuff that's happened.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what does that process look like? Because I imagine are
Speaker 2: the parents listening. I'm a parent as well and just
Speaker 2: going that sounds great, but like when is you doing
Speaker 2: that in the car when you're locked away from your family, Like,
Speaker 2: how does that work?
Speaker 3: So, as you can imagine, it looks like very things.
Speaker 1: So in an ideal world, I will do a meditation
Speaker 1: after the kids go to bed and then before I
Speaker 1: kind of like join my husband and you know, I
Speaker 1: do what that would look like me being in my
Speaker 1: bedroom with the door closed and sitting down and doing that.
Speaker 1: In reality, it can look like ME doing a meditation
Speaker 1: in the hallway between the two kids' bedrooms and them
Speaker 1: just knowing that mum's out here, but they want to
Speaker 1: listen to me doing it's Yeah, so I think it's like,
Speaker 1: how do you have a flexibility really with this that
Speaker 1: even for a second, I'm still tuning in. And I
Speaker 1: also kind of figured that, well, at least they know
Speaker 1: that this is a practice that mum does. That might
Speaker 1: at some point mean that it's helpful for them, or
Speaker 1: that they might kind of that it's normalized. I suppose
Speaker 1: in an I do world, yes, i'd be in my
Speaker 1: bedroom on my own definitely.
Speaker 2: Can you tell me more about this corridor meditation? What
Speaker 2: does that look like?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's me sitting on the floor and I
Speaker 1: do one of two things. I either do, I'll use
Speaker 1: a meditation timer where bells go off at intervals and
Speaker 1: I'm just paying attention to the breath or noticing what's
Speaker 1: happening in the mind, or or do a breath work meditation,
Speaker 1: also using an app which is very deliberate changing of
Speaker 1: the breath rather than just watching or.
Speaker 3: Noticing the breath.
Speaker 1: But I'll definitely have like my daughter Willow should be
Speaker 1: like mum, and I'd be like putting my hand up.
Speaker 1: I can't change my breathing. I can't talk whilst she's
Speaker 1: like mommm. So yeah, you know, it's not a perfect
Speaker 1: it's not a perfect thing, but it's something in that direction.
Speaker 2: I love that what appsually your current favorites for.
Speaker 1: That, So I would use inside timer, which has the
Speaker 1: kind of bell practice, and then I also use which
Speaker 1: you from The Imperfect has got me onto and now
Speaker 1: I'm quietly obsessed. It's a breathwork app called other Ship.
Speaker 1: That's an American app. Some of it's a bit American
Speaker 1: and some of it is amazing. So I find that
Speaker 1: really very restorative.
Speaker 2: You through your work with The Imperfect, which topics that
Speaker 2: you've spoken about publicly have I guess generated the most response.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was spoken about this a little bit, but
Speaker 1: a long time ago, I did an episode on what
Speaker 1: was called Truth versus Harmony, which was really highlighting, I guess,
Speaker 1: the role of all the experience of self sacrifice and
Speaker 1: people pleasing. And I think that that hit accord very
Speaker 1: strongly with a lot of people and maybe highlighted the
Speaker 1: conundrum that we get ourselves caught up in around you know,
Speaker 1: caring for others, but also in that process sometimes not
Speaker 1: being able to care for ourselves. So that kind of
Speaker 1: I think that one hit a mark.
Speaker 2: How do you personally think about that in your own life?
Speaker 1: It's tricky because I imagine like a self sacrifice schemer,
Speaker 1: for example, is very common in therapists. It's like if
Speaker 1: you were to survey other psychologists, this is pretty a
Speaker 1: pretty common experience. So that for me is like a
Speaker 1: work in progress, absolutely, Like I have to work pretty
Speaker 1: hard to not kind of move into that default mode,
Speaker 1: which is deferring to others and avoiding conflict, Like I
Speaker 1: am not a fan of conflict, and so it takes
Speaker 1: quite a bit of effort. But I think, you know,
Speaker 1: therapy has been really good for that, and also, like
Speaker 1: the practice of journaling can be like I have found
Speaker 1: that quite helpful. But even just slowing down and to
Speaker 1: notice when I move into those like automatic patterns, And
Speaker 1: that's probably come more from the practice of like meditation,
Speaker 1: of being able to slow down and notice a little
Speaker 1: bit more.
Speaker 3: I think, are there.
Speaker 2: Any other practices or rituals that have served you well,
Speaker 2: particularly with maintaining boundaries?
Speaker 1: Yeah, asking for time is good. Let me get back
Speaker 1: to you on that. I honestly, I do think it's
Speaker 1: like the taking of the breath, like, so just like
Speaker 1: that micro moment has served me well. I think of
Speaker 1: like being able to slow down, but I'm not perfect
Speaker 1: at that by any means, Like it is very much,
Speaker 1: you know, something that I work on. I think also,
Speaker 1: like again, it's kind of about that space to reflect
Speaker 1: upon what's this yes for? So, like is this in
Speaker 1: service of my values? Am I saying yes because like
Speaker 1: it's a wholehearted yes? Or am I saying yes because
Speaker 1: I feel I should? And so that's something like that
Speaker 1: kind of reflection is helpful. There's always going to be
Speaker 1: like a cost somewhere, So you know, is it a
Speaker 1: cost to the energy I have for my kids, or
Speaker 1: for my husband, or for my friends or just for myself.
Speaker 1: So I think like, in terms of practice for boundaries,
Speaker 1: it's it is primarily that slowing down piece.
Speaker 3: I think, Yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Love that question. What is this yes for? Can you
Speaker 2: give me a couple of examples of where you've had
Speaker 2: to use that lately?
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I got an email request for something a few
Speaker 1: weeks ago and I read I was like, oh, that's
Speaker 1: like that's really cool, like I should and like automating resions,
Speaker 1: like how am I going to create space in my
Speaker 1: calendar for this? And then I really thought about it
Speaker 1: and I was like, you know, like what is this
Speaker 1: in service of? And what is it going to cost
Speaker 1: me by saying yes? And I thought about it and
Speaker 1: then I was like, what would it be like to
Speaker 1: say no? What would show up for me if I
Speaker 1: was to say no? And actually it was nothing. It
Speaker 1: was like, that's an opportunity that I could have done,
Speaker 1: but really the cost is not that great of me
Speaker 1: saying no. But I think so often like we just
Speaker 1: get so caught up in there the need for yes
Speaker 1: without actually reflecting on what would be the cost of
Speaker 1: the no.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. I love that answer. I guess
Speaker 2: it's a good segue into values, which you write a
Speaker 2: lot about in your new book, Unstark, And I've also
Speaker 2: loved hearing you talk about values on The Imperfect. I
Speaker 2: remember you did an episode and maybe this was a
Speaker 2: year ago or so, but it stuck with me, and
Speaker 2: you were talking about the value of health. And I've
Speaker 2: always thought that health is one of my values. But
Speaker 2: I remember you said health is not a value, and
Speaker 2: it really it made me rethink a lot. So I
Speaker 2: want to know, like, where does someone start, Because it's
Speaker 2: easy to talk about values, but I think it's actually
Speaker 2: really hard to identify them. And I think that most
Speaker 2: people are probably very out of touch with their values.
Speaker 2: So where is the best place to start? Really?
Speaker 1: Basically, I would often start with a questionnaire. Sounds like
Speaker 1: a very kind of concrete, trivial way, but I think
Speaker 1: it can offer us like a bit of a gateway
Speaker 1: to more in depth explorations. So I have a questionnaire
Speaker 1: in my book. It's based upon one of Russ Harris,
Speaker 1: who's the author of the Happiness Strap. One of his
Speaker 1: question is and it's pulled in from some other acceptance
Speaker 1: and commitment therapy researchers. But you know, you can go
Speaker 1: and find it online, like you know values questionnaire, and
Speaker 1: at least that's us like a place to start to
Speaker 1: explore basically, what is it that I want my life
Speaker 1: to stand for? So how do I want to show up?
Speaker 1: And it's really kind of the quality of behavior rather
Speaker 1: than maybe a moral or a virtue. There are also
Speaker 1: some you know, some more kind of reflective ways in
Speaker 1: which we can access our values. The eightieth birthday exercises
Speaker 1: a very common one which we'll use in therapy, but
Speaker 1: in essence, it's asking you to reflect upon like a
Speaker 1: milestone event in many years time, and that at this
Speaker 1: milestone event you have, you invite friends and family to
Speaker 1: do a speech abou and the question is what is
Speaker 1: it that you would want them to say about you,
Speaker 1: whether you're acting this way or not. Now, what is
Speaker 1: it that you would deeply like them to say about
Speaker 1: how you've lived your life? And often that will uncover
Speaker 1: the things that are most important, so things like you know,
Speaker 1: I hope to be remembered for being caring, or being
Speaker 1: curious or being creative. And so we can kind of
Speaker 1: use that as again as like a platform to really
Speaker 1: kind of get a stronger sense like how do I
Speaker 1: want to show up?
Speaker 2: I think yeah, I love that eightieth birthday party exercise
Speaker 2: that you write about in Unstuck. How do you know, like,
Speaker 2: how does it show up in therapy when you're the
Speaker 2: therapist that someone is either not in touch with their
Speaker 2: values or is living out of alignment with them. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, usually it will be that like to put a
Speaker 1: very plan that they'll be stuck, that there'll be some
Speaker 1: sort of stuckness here. So there's a sense here that
Speaker 1: there's a gap between my values and my behavior. So if,
Speaker 1: for example, we might have someone that values let's just say,
Speaker 1: like curiosity, for example, but they're finding through a lot
Speaker 1: of struggle that they're getting caught on an autopilot all
Speaker 1: the time. Maybe they're scrolling on their phone a lot.
Speaker 1: There's like the mood is very flat, they're kind of
Speaker 1: going through the motions, and so it might feel there
Speaker 1: that we've kind of lost connection with this value of curiosity,
Speaker 1: because curiosity is one of kind of growth and openness,
Speaker 1: whereas like through daily struggles, we can get of course
Speaker 1: pulled into whatever is easiest and what feels the least painful,
Speaker 1: and that can be avoidant behaviors. So the presence of
Speaker 1: avoidance and behaviors that provide quick relief or relief from
Speaker 1: some kind of pain often signal or values disconnection.
Speaker 2: Yeah, your clients generally aware of that when when they're
Speaker 2: describing that behavior to you, or does it often take you,
Speaker 2: as an external trained professional to point that discrepancy out.
Speaker 1: I think it's both. You know, so some people will
Speaker 1: never have thought about values before, and some people may
Speaker 1: not actually be aware that this kind of discomfort that's
Speaker 1: here is highlighting that they're in misalignment with their values,
Speaker 1: whereas other people know, and that can also be really painful,
Speaker 1: Like this recognition that I have, like these are my values,
Speaker 1: that I'm acting inconsistently with them, and I think that
Speaker 1: can kind of open people up to feeling shame or
Speaker 1: feeling a great sadness or a disappointment. So I think
Speaker 1: it can be both that we can have an awareness
Speaker 1: of our values or we can just be really disconnected
Speaker 1: from them. But where our behavior sits is another story.
Speaker 2: I think we will be back with M soon, and
Speaker 2: when we come back, we will dive into her go
Speaker 2: to tool for working with your values and how you
Speaker 2: can take back control from the thoughts that are dragging
Speaker 2: you down. If you're looking for more tips to improve
Speaker 2: the way you work and live. I write a short
Speaker 2: weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered that have helped
Speaker 2: me personally. You can sign up for that at Amantha
Speaker 2: dot com. That's Amantha dot com. One of the things
Speaker 2: that I've heard you talk about and you write about
Speaker 2: in Unstuck is that values are bidirectional. Can you explain
Speaker 2: what that means?
Speaker 1: Yes? Yeah, Like, as a people pleaser, for example, we
Speaker 1: might hold values around being kind and being caring. So
Speaker 1: you would assume then that, like the active being kind
Speaker 1: is towards other people, So my behavior is consistent with
Speaker 1: the value of kindness when I'm showing up in kind
Speaker 1: ways to other people. But what I didn't realize, and
Speaker 1: what only kind of came to like to me a
Speaker 1: few years ago, was that actually, if I value being kind,
Speaker 1: I also value being kind to myself. And so that
Speaker 1: might mean, for example, like boundaries, So an active kindness
Speaker 1: might be putting a boundary in place rather than pleasing
Speaker 1: everybody else in order to be kind. So it's a
Speaker 1: bit of a balancing act of being able to recognize
Speaker 1: and again, like tune in, am I showing out to
Speaker 1: my values by over exerting myself all the time, Or
Speaker 1: am I showing out to my values by saying no
Speaker 1: or putting a boundary in place or speaking up when
Speaker 1: someone's being rude for example? But it's a really tough ask.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, are there examples in your own life where
Speaker 2: you feel like you have a value and then you're like, actually, no,
Speaker 2: that's not bidirectional in terms of how I'm acting.
Speaker 1: Oh look, I can certainly relate to the people pleasing
Speaker 1: one absolutely that most definitely shows up to me. I
Speaker 1: think there are times like I definitely have a value
Speaker 1: around curiosity, And sometimes it might mean that I'm not
Speaker 1: being curious about my own experience but just being curious
Speaker 1: about others. And so that would be an example, because
Speaker 1: when I'm not curious about what's happening inside my body
Speaker 1: and my mind, I'm missing a whole of information. So
Speaker 1: that would be one example. You know, there could be
Speaker 1: values in there around like, for example, being respectful that
Speaker 1: I might hold a value of being really respectful of others.
Speaker 1: But when I deny my own needs, am I being
Speaker 1: respectful to myself? So there's a whole other ways we
Speaker 1: can kind of look at it, you know, in that sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the curiosity one is interesting. That definitely resonates with me.
Speaker 2: It's definitely a core value. And I feel like, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean like as a podcast host, you kind of
Speaker 2: get you know if you do and get skilled asking questions.
Speaker 2: But I feel like just in day to day conversations,
Speaker 2: I will walk away from so many conversations going I
Speaker 2: asked so many questions and I learned so much about
Speaker 2: the other person, but I don't think they actually learned
Speaker 2: that much about me, you know. And I realized, like
Speaker 2: I studied Gastoll therapy in my twenties and just what's
Speaker 2: stuck with me. One of the things that stuck with
Speaker 2: me was that everything is co created. And when I
Speaker 2: kind of go jump to blame, which is the easiest
Speaker 2: thing to do when you're not happy about something, I
Speaker 2: always step back and go, Okay, how did I contribute
Speaker 2: to that experience? And I do wonder like can you
Speaker 2: relate to that about like, you know, you're a psychologist,
Speaker 2: You're used to asking questions and being curious, but.
Speaker 3: Could you relate to that.
Speaker 2: And what do you do? What do you do?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I so relate to that because it is like
Speaker 1: this default mode I think as therapists. We're trained to
Speaker 1: pay attention to other people and to tune in and
Speaker 1: to be curious and to ask questions and my like
Speaker 1: in interactions often with friends, I have a lot of
Speaker 1: discomfort in talking about like all this stuff. For example,
Speaker 1: I find it very uncomfortable. I would far prefer to
Speaker 1: divert to questions about what's happening for the other person,
Speaker 1: which is fine, but you're absolutely right there is you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes you could walk away and feel like.
Speaker 2: Was that?
Speaker 1: How authentic was that? What was I trying to move
Speaker 1: away from by asking the question? And how much did
Speaker 1: they get to know me by me or deflecting? I
Speaker 1: think that that's a really interesting frame there that you're
Speaker 1: talking about, is like this kind of co creation here,
Speaker 1: what are we co creating when one party is receiving
Speaker 1: the other person is not.
Speaker 2: How do you then, like after you know you like,
Speaker 2: you're obviously aware of this behavior, what's been your solution
Speaker 2: asking for a friend?
Speaker 1: Yes, a good question, It's still it is a work
Speaker 1: in progress. I do feel like that achievement feels really
Speaker 1: important and being able to name like in the moment,
Speaker 1: even like I do talk in the book and in
Speaker 1: the work that I do like, as you would know,
Speaker 1: like working a lot with that in a dialogue and
Speaker 1: being able to notice and name like that in a
Speaker 1: critic that's showing up, or even kind of gently using
Speaker 1: some kind of compassionate response here does Emily, it's okay,
Speaker 1: you can stay with this for a moment, or just
Speaker 1: kind of noticing like my yearning to go to the
Speaker 1: other person and just to notice and just let it
Speaker 1: be okay, it is okay for this tension to be here.
Speaker 1: But that's all kind of this very quick, rapid internalized
Speaker 1: response which I never you know, I'm not getting this
Speaker 1: right all the time, but it's like an intention I
Speaker 1: think to try and slow down just to catch that
Speaker 1: and to use some kind of like noticing language.
Speaker 2: I think I want to talk about some other ways
Speaker 2: to work with values, and one of the tools that
Speaker 2: you write about is the act Bullseye tool, which I
Speaker 2: think is really useful. Can you explain how you work, like,
Speaker 2: what is that tool and how do you work with Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it was developed by Tobias lun lunged Wren. I
Speaker 1: think I'm going to pronounce that in correctly. Who's an
Speaker 1: act therapist? And you know, if you imagine a bullseye.
Speaker 1: We've got like the center circle, and then we have
Speaker 1: concentric circles that come outwards from that, and that particular
Speaker 1: bulls eye divides the circle into quadrants according to domains
Speaker 1: of life, for example, So we might have relationships, work, hobbies,
Speaker 1: self care, for example. And what it invites you to
Speaker 1: do is to choose one domain and on the bullseye
Speaker 1: where you think your behavior or how consistently you believe
Speaker 1: your behavior is in accordance with the bulls eye. So
Speaker 1: if you mark right in the center of that bulls eye,
Speaker 1: you would say that my behavior is absolutely consistent with
Speaker 1: this value here. But most often in therapy, that's not
Speaker 1: what people would be marking. Most often it would be
Speaker 1: that my behavior is on an outer ring of that bullseye.
Speaker 1: And so the bigger the gap we get between where
Speaker 1: my behavior is and where I'd like it to be,
Speaker 1: usually the more distressed there is. And so, for example,
Speaker 1: like in parenting, it might be that your values around
Speaker 1: kind of showing up, so to speak, or kind of
Speaker 1: the way your parent might be a compassionate stance, for example,
Speaker 1: And so you may value this really deeply, but often
Speaker 1: you might get caught up in reactivity, and so it
Speaker 1: might mean that you're reactive with the kids and not
Speaker 1: ever around blame, but just noticing that that behavior feels
Speaker 1: inconsistent with the way I want to show up. And
Speaker 1: so in that instance, we might be marking our like
Speaker 1: where we are on that comfort zone further out from
Speaker 1: where we want to be.
Speaker 2: That's interesting. It also makes me wonder how much the
Speaker 2: values change. Like values obviously change over time, but from
Speaker 2: your experience and you know, working with people as a therapist, like,
Speaker 2: over what time frame do you see that things shift?
Speaker 1: Look, I actually don't know what the research says technically
Speaker 1: around whether our values are changing across the lifespan. In
Speaker 1: my opinion, I think that they can evolve. Certainly, we
Speaker 1: might have some core ones that we're kind of constantly
Speaker 1: coming back to. But I think the thing about values
Speaker 1: is that, yes, because we're human, they can change. So
Speaker 1: we're constantly in a state of change.
Speaker 3: But in terms of like.
Speaker 1: How that shifts back towards behavior and behavioral change. The
Speaker 1: thing that I love about working with values is that
Speaker 1: you can show up to your values moment to moment.
Speaker 1: We don't have to wait for the right condition to
Speaker 1: do it, So you know, even if, like today, I
Speaker 1: actually consistently with my values, tomorrow I can get back
Speaker 1: on board again. Like there's no end goal. There's values
Speaker 1: are like heading west. We never get there. It is
Speaker 1: just an ongoing direction to kind of return to. So
Speaker 1: a little bit like this compass. So yep, you know,
Speaker 1: I fell off the horse today, but tomorrow I just
Speaker 1: get back on and then I see how I can
Speaker 1: head back in the direction again. I think in therapy
Speaker 1: what we would see is that maybe we're more consistently
Speaker 1: noticing when we've fallen off the horse and maybe more
Speaker 1: consistently making effort to get back on again. But there's never,
Speaker 1: like ever, you know, a perfect direction to be heading.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to talk about cognitive fusion and cognitive diffusion.
Speaker 2: Can you define what cognitive fusion?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: Is?
Speaker 1: Yes? So, cognitive fusion is basically when we like, if
Speaker 1: you imagine that we weld two pieces of metal together,
Speaker 1: they're stuck together. And if we think about this in
Speaker 1: terms of the mind and yourself when you have thought,
Speaker 1: let's just say the thought is I'm not good enough.
Speaker 1: Cognitive fusion is when I believe that thought to be
Speaker 1: a fact, when I kind of weld myself together with
Speaker 1: that thought, and we believe those thoughts to be true.
Speaker 1: We hold very tightly to those thoughts as though they
Speaker 1: are telling us a gospel for example. Yeah, so when
Speaker 1: we hold really tightly to thoughts and we believe them
Speaker 1: to be so true all of the time, we will
Speaker 1: find that that fusion for myself with the thought really
Speaker 1: directs our behavior and often narrows our choices. So if
Speaker 1: I believe that I'm a failure, or if I believe
Speaker 1: I can't do it, if I hold really tightly onto
Speaker 1: that thought, it might mean that I don't put my
Speaker 1: hand up for a promotion, or I don't set goals
Speaker 1: that might be a little bit out of age, or
Speaker 1: I don't pursue things. And so we can see here
Speaker 1: where when we fuse with that thought, when I get
Speaker 1: really entangled in that thought, it narrows what's called my
Speaker 1: repertoire of behaviors, So my choices of behavior.
Speaker 2: I would love to know. I'm in the obvious question.
Speaker 2: How how do we unfuse? How do we defuse?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so when we think about diffusion, basically what we're
Speaker 1: doing is pulling apart ourself from the thoughts. So we're
Speaker 1: gaining a space between me and the thoughts that I'm having.
Speaker 1: And there are a multitude of ways in which we
Speaker 1: can practice diffusion. The process of diffusion the simplest way
Speaker 1: that I can kind of describe it. I don't actually
Speaker 1: think I put this in the book, but I don't know.
Speaker 1: If you remember, a long, long time ago at Melbourne Zoo,
Speaker 1: they had a tiger enclosure. Every time I went as
Speaker 1: a young kid, I would always see the tiger just
Speaker 1: pacing up and down inside the enclosure. Yeah, that was
Speaker 1: all it was, doing the same track up and down.
Speaker 1: That to me is like cognitive fusion. Like I am
Speaker 1: just on this narrow pathway, I'm sewing gross there's no
Speaker 1: other choices. I'm stuck in this enclosure, in this one
Speaker 1: little space. With cognitive diffusion, it's like we're the observer
Speaker 1: watching the tiger going up and down. So I'm on
Speaker 1: the other side of the glass as this visitor to
Speaker 1: the zoo, and I'm watching the tiger go up and down,
Speaker 1: up and down, but I am not the tiger. And
Speaker 1: so diffusion is noticing that I can have the thoughts,
Speaker 1: but I don't have to be driven by them, and
Speaker 1: we use that, or we cultivate this kind of way
Speaker 1: of relating through using what's called observing language or noticing language. So,
Speaker 1: for example, if I have the thought I'm a failure,
Speaker 1: I might say to myself, I'm such a failure.
Speaker 3: How could I do this?
Speaker 1: If it were to practice diffusion, it would be something like, ahuh,
Speaker 1: I'm noticing. I'm having the thought that I'm such a failure.
Speaker 1: So it's not banishing thoughts, getting rid of them, or
Speaker 1: challenging them even it's just slowing it down to notice
Speaker 1: that there is a part of me that can observe
Speaker 1: and that gives me a little bit more spaciousness.
Speaker 2: I'd love to know. I mean, there are so many
Speaker 2: different cognitive diffusion strategies and you write about a lot
Speaker 2: of them in Unstuck. What are your go to once,
Speaker 2: just on.
Speaker 1: A day to day basis, Oh, I definitely use I'm noticing.
Speaker 1: So I would often say like, yep, thanks mind, I'm noticing.
Speaker 1: I hear you. So it's often kind of like again,
Speaker 1: like not punishing the thoughts for being there, but just
Speaker 1: noticing like I hear you. Yep, that's understandable, I've got this.
Speaker 1: So things like that, I also do find there's an
Speaker 1: example in there of a very classic act intervention which
Speaker 1: is called leaves on a stream. And this is this
Speaker 1: idea that if you imagine sitting by the side of
Speaker 1: a stream and you see leaves floating down the stream,
Speaker 1: a practice which we would do in far more death
Speaker 1: than I'm explaining right now, but that you would imagine
Speaker 1: that anytime a thought arises into the mind, we place
Speaker 1: that thought onto a leaf and we watch it float
Speaker 1: down the stream. So it's just this practice really of
Speaker 1: watching thoughts rather than being in thoughts. And it's with
Speaker 1: this kind of more spacious awareness where I can observe
Speaker 1: rather than be in it, that we really are hopefully
Speaker 1: opening up to more choice around like what to do next,
Speaker 1: and also to even examine like what's called like the
Speaker 1: workability of thoughts. You know, if I hold tightly to
Speaker 1: this thought, does this bring me closer to my value direction?
Speaker 1: What happens if I loosen the grip a bit on
Speaker 1: this thought? Could there be alternatives? Could there be other
Speaker 1: ways here?
Speaker 2: I could definitely relate. Actually, I think that my go
Speaker 2: to cognitive diffusion strategy is just putting I'm having the
Speaker 2: thought that in front of any problematic I mean, that
Speaker 2: sounds very judgmental, but any unhelpful thought that I am having,
Speaker 2: and I reckon. I always use that on a weekly basis,
Speaker 2: I reckon. Yeah, yeah, I find that helpful. I find
Speaker 2: that so helpful. I feel like I've tried them all,
Speaker 2: you know. I remember when I was learning about act
Speaker 2: many many years ago, and you know, I've tried singing
Speaker 2: the thoughts happy birthday and all the kind of interesting
Speaker 2: creative ways out there. But I just I keep coming
Speaker 2: back to that, And it's something that I've talked to
Speaker 2: a lot of clients that invent him as well, and
Speaker 2: I just think it's so it's so simple and helpful.
Speaker 2: And I think when you learn about cognitive diffusion, the
Speaker 2: idea that hang on thoughts are just words. Yeah, that
Speaker 2: just seems revolutionary, even though it is also very very obvious.
Speaker 2: So I always just keep coming back to that they're
Speaker 2: just words.
Speaker 1: They are, but yet we stick to them, like, but
Speaker 1: we also don't notice all the thoughts that we have
Speaker 1: that we don't stick to. So like all of these
Speaker 1: mental events just like passing through the mind, but some
Speaker 1: of them are stickier than others.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I always love to know, Like when you
Speaker 2: put a book out into the world, Like, what has
Speaker 2: resonated most with people so far? What have you found
Speaker 2: is stuck with people from unstuck.
Speaker 1: I Actually, I think one of the things that's come
Speaker 1: out most commonly has been around the inner critic and
Speaker 1: like this role that the innocritic plays and how hard
Speaker 1: it is for us to work with self compassion. I
Speaker 1: think that has been something that's stuck out is that
Speaker 1: we know from the research this self compassion is so
Speaker 1: important not only for how we care for ourselves, but
Speaker 1: also like how we can really productively show up, but
Speaker 1: it doesn't come naturally. And so I guess like that's
Speaker 1: probably the thing that has stood out, is that we
Speaker 1: all have this in a critic that can really knock
Speaker 1: us around and push us around in directions that takes
Speaker 1: us into a place of more suffering. And I think
Speaker 1: maybe in some ways the pathway through that has been
Speaker 1: like how we work with those emotions in a really
Speaker 1: compassionate way.
Speaker 2: It's been such a joy to sit down with you
Speaker 2: after listening to so many episodes you've done on The
Speaker 2: Imperfect and reading your book, it's just been such a
Speaker 2: privilege to sit down and chat psychology.
Speaker 1: It's a privilege to be here man, I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2: I hope you enjoy it this chat with doctor M.
Speaker 2: And I personally think that if you are looking to
Speaker 2: get stuck into your values and trying to identify what
Speaker 2: are they really recommend trying out that eightieth birthday exercise
Speaker 2: that she recommended. And if you want to learn more
Speaker 2: about doctor M, check out her new book, Unstuck, and
Speaker 2: links to that are in the show notes. If you
Speaker 2: like today's show, make sure you hit follow on your
Speaker 2: podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop. How
Speaker 2: I Work was recorded on the traditional land of the
Speaker 2: Warrangery people, part of the Kulin nation.