1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: So if I believe that I'm a failure, or if 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: I believe I can't do it, if I hold really 3 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: tightly onto that thought, it might mean that I don't 4 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: put my hand up for a promotion or I don't 5 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: set goals. That might be a little bit out of age. 6 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 2: My guest today is clinical psychologist doctor Emily Musgrove. You 7 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 2: might know her as doctor M, the residents psychologist on 8 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 2: The Imperfect podcast, Australia's top mental health podcast with millions 9 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 2: of loyal listeners. Doctor M is also the author of 10 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 2: the new book Unstuck, and in this episode, we'll be 11 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:39,919 Speaker 2: discussing how you can identify and get in touch with 12 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 2: your values to quite radically change your life. 13 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: Values are like heading west. We never get there. It 14 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: is just an ongoing direction to kind of return to. 15 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 2: How does it show up in therapy when you're the 16 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 2: therapist that someone is either not in touch with their 17 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 2: values or is living out of alignment with them. 18 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: Usually it will be. 19 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals 20 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,559 Speaker 2: and strategies for optimizing your date. I'm your host, doctor 21 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:24,279 Speaker 2: Amantha imber So. I want to start by talking about 22 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,119 Speaker 2: therapy because in the book. You mentioned that you've seen 23 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 2: quite a few different therapists, and as have I, and 24 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 2: I always think, how does a therapist go about picking 25 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 2: the right therapist for them? What was your process? 26 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:41,639 Speaker 1: I mean, it's tough because the people that I would 27 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: normally refer like friends and colleagues to, I wouldn't be 28 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: able to see because they like they are my friends 29 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: or they're my peers. So certainly with my most recent 30 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: it's been asking other psychologists who they would recommend, So 31 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: it's kind of gone one step further, I suppose. But 32 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: for me, I also wanted to work with like this 33 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: is particularly for my most it's like I'm saying, many 34 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: of them. 35 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 2: This person I've. 36 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 1: Seen on and off over the last couple of years, 37 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: and she uses a schema approach, which is not my 38 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: area of specialty. You know, I have some training in it, 39 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 1: but it's certainly not my kind of treatment modality that 40 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: I would use in depth. And so I really wanted 41 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: to work with someone that was going to work from 42 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: a different lens that I usually work with myself. And 43 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 1: it's been I mean, it's been so helpful, but fundamentally, 44 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: like as you would know, like the treatment approach is 45 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: one thing, but it's the relationship with that therapist that's 46 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: probably more profound than anything else. 47 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:35,239 Speaker 3: I think. 48 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I always feel like those first few sessions are 49 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 2: quite hard in terms of, oh my gosh, I have 50 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 2: to give my whole history all over again, and is 51 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 2: it worth it, and like how many sessions do you 52 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 2: give it? Personally to go, Yeah, this relationship with this 53 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 2: new therapist or psychologist is absolutely working. And I also 54 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:58,799 Speaker 2: think for listeners, like how long should people be giving it? 55 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: I think it can kind of go one of two ways. 56 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: I think sometimes you can get a vibe straight away, 57 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: like in the same way that you know, like I 58 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: think if we can be attuned to the feeling tone 59 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 1: that's there between you and another person, I think we 60 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: can pay attention to that. But from a therapeutic point 61 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: of view, I would say at least two sessions because 62 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: also sometimes you know, if we're like in a first session, 63 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: if I just get a really strong reaction, it could 64 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: be one of two things, Like it could be like 65 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: I'm getting a reaction to my own stuff or I'm 66 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 1: having a reaction to this person not being the right fit. 67 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 1: So I think sometimes that takes a bit of time 68 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: to kind of disentangle, you know, with my therapist. So 69 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: I really had a very strong sense straight straight away. 70 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: But equally, I think it depends what you're coming in with, 71 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: and sometimes it might take a few sessions. 72 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, how do you know when it's time to finish 73 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 2: a therapeutic relationship. 74 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: From the angle of being the therapist or being the client, 75 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: I would love both angles. Yeah, it's interesting. So as 76 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: from a therapist point of view, you know, in an 77 00:03:57,560 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: ideal world is that you know, we might have frequent 78 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: sessions and then we're reviewing as we're going and looking 79 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: at kind of the goals that we're setting and how 80 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: that's sitting, and then that might expand to like monthly 81 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: or you know, kind of maybe checking in every few months. 82 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: But I think the question is, you know, what am 83 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: I getting out of this and what purpose is this serving? 84 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: You know, is this actually becoming more of a like 85 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: that I really enjoy my time here, or is it 86 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: this this is actually inviting our work and reflection. And 87 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 1: I think that if it's just like it's nice to 88 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 1: catch up, that's probably probably a bit of a warning 89 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,679 Speaker 1: signs time to stop. But equally, like, on the other hand, 90 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 1: you know, if it feels like you're going over the 91 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: same ground again and again, and there's a sense of 92 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,359 Speaker 1: feeling like nothing is changing. I think that that is 93 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 1: such an opportunity. Like I always remember this term from 94 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 1: early in my career or training, like it's all gris 95 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: for the mill, Like if something isn't working, I'm always 96 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: really encouraging of clients to tell me like, if this 97 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: is not feeling right, let's explore why that is. And 98 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: if it is that there's a therapeut issue between you 99 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: and I, then it may be something that we can 100 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: either work through or that it would be the best 101 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 1: interest of them to see someone else. So this kind 102 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: of you know, we can end treatment because we're now 103 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: doing really well, or we can end treatment because it 104 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: might be in the best interests of them to see 105 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 1: someone else. For me as an individual, as a client, 106 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 1: I think it would be like again, this kind of 107 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 1: questioning is like what am I getting out of this? 108 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 1: Is it serving me? Am I still on track to 109 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 1: those kind of original goals or do I just really enjoy. 110 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 3: Having a chat or like checking in with them? 111 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, good advice. 112 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 2: I grew up with a mum that was a clinical 113 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 2: psychologist and she's still in private practice, and I think 114 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 2: in large part that's what inspired me to become a psychologist. 115 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 2: I went down the organizational psychology route. Like my main 116 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 2: reason for doing that is that I would see the 117 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 2: work that my mum does, and she specializes in oncology patients, 118 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 2: so it's pretty intense work. And I would always think 119 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 2: to myself, how do you detach emotionally at the end 120 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 2: of the day, and when I assume, because I think 121 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 2: if you pursue a career in psychology. Certainly, back when 122 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 2: I was doing my studies, clinicals like was everything and 123 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 2: the other fields of psychology like we're very not really 124 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:14,919 Speaker 2: known about h and I always thought, how would I 125 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 2: do that at the end of a really emotionally draining day, 126 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 2: And I would love to know what is your process? 127 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, So I am quite deliberate about that. And it's 128 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:27,840 Speaker 1: also why I don't like working from home. I very 129 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 1: rarely will work from home. If I'm doing telehealth, I 130 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: like to come into my office. So there's like a 131 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: real kind of sense of a boundary there. If I 132 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: am getting in the car and driving home, I make 133 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 1: a very deliberate point of not having anything on the 134 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 1: radio or listening to anything. It feels like it's just 135 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: a sensory overload. I've been listening all day and reflecting 136 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: and analyzing, so it feels like I need a quiet. 137 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 1: So then I'm kind of re entering the next part 138 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 1: of my day where my role is different. So I'm 139 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: coming in as mum and partner and whatever other roles 140 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: there might be. And I do have this This is 141 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 1: probably very similar for many people. They have to get 142 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 1: changed immediately. Like I can't sit in my work clothes 143 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: just a normal close for any longer than a second. 144 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: It's like I need to shed that part. So I think, 145 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: like symbolically even that is something. But I do definitely 146 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: do like try and have a space of meditation or 147 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: breath work kind of at a transition point after work 148 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: that I think feels really like pretty integral. I think 149 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: in terms of kind of holding almost like being accountable 150 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: to what I'm talking about in therapy, but also being 151 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: able to let go of some of the stuff that's happened. 152 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, what does that process look like? Because I imagine are 153 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 2: the parents listening. I'm a parent as well and just 154 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 2: going that sounds great, but like when is you doing 155 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 2: that in the car when you're locked away from your family, Like, 156 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 2: how does that work? 157 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 3: So, as you can imagine, it looks like very things. 158 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: So in an ideal world, I will do a meditation 159 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: after the kids go to bed and then before I 160 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: kind of like join my husband and you know, I 161 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: do what that would look like me being in my 162 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: bedroom with the door closed and sitting down and doing that. 163 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: In reality, it can look like ME doing a meditation 164 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: in the hallway between the two kids' bedrooms and them 165 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: just knowing that mum's out here, but they want to 166 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: listen to me doing it's Yeah, so I think it's like, 167 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: how do you have a flexibility really with this that 168 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: even for a second, I'm still tuning in. And I 169 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: also kind of figured that, well, at least they know 170 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: that this is a practice that mum does. That might 171 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: at some point mean that it's helpful for them, or 172 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: that they might kind of that it's normalized. I suppose 173 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: in an I do world, yes, i'd be in my 174 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: bedroom on my own definitely. 175 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 2: Can you tell me more about this corridor meditation? What 176 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 2: does that look like? 177 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's me sitting on the floor and I 178 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: do one of two things. I either do, I'll use 179 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: a meditation timer where bells go off at intervals and 180 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,679 Speaker 1: I'm just paying attention to the breath or noticing what's 181 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: happening in the mind, or or do a breath work meditation, 182 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: also using an app which is very deliberate changing of 183 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: the breath rather than just watching or. 184 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 3: Noticing the breath. 185 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: But I'll definitely have like my daughter Willow should be 186 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: like mum, and I'd be like putting my hand up. 187 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: I can't change my breathing. I can't talk whilst she's 188 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 1: like mommm. So yeah, you know, it's not a perfect 189 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: it's not a perfect thing, but it's something in that direction. 190 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 2: I love that what appsually your current favorites for. 191 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: That, So I would use inside timer, which has the 192 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: kind of bell practice, and then I also use which 193 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: you from The Imperfect has got me onto and now 194 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: I'm quietly obsessed. It's a breathwork app called other Ship. 195 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: That's an American app. Some of it's a bit American 196 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:40,839 Speaker 1: and some of it is amazing. So I find that 197 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: really very restorative. 198 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 2: You through your work with The Imperfect, which topics that 199 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 2: you've spoken about publicly have I guess generated the most response. 200 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was spoken about this a little bit, but 201 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: a long time ago, I did an episode on what 202 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: was called Truth versus Harmony, which was really highlighting, I guess, 203 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: the role of all the experience of self sacrifice and 204 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:09,199 Speaker 1: people pleasing. And I think that that hit accord very 205 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: strongly with a lot of people and maybe highlighted the 206 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: conundrum that we get ourselves caught up in around you know, 207 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: caring for others, but also in that process sometimes not 208 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: being able to care for ourselves. So that kind of 209 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 1: I think that one hit a mark. 210 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 2: How do you personally think about that in your own life? 211 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: It's tricky because I imagine like a self sacrifice schemer, 212 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 1: for example, is very common in therapists. It's like if 213 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: you were to survey other psychologists, this is pretty a 214 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: pretty common experience. So that for me is like a 215 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: work in progress, absolutely, Like I have to work pretty 216 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 1: hard to not kind of move into that default mode, 217 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: which is deferring to others and avoiding conflict, Like I 218 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: am not a fan of conflict, and so it takes 219 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: quite a bit of effort. But I think, you know, 220 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: therapy has been really good for that, and also, like 221 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 1: the practice of journaling can be like I have found 222 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: that quite helpful. But even just slowing down and to 223 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: notice when I move into those like automatic patterns, And 224 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: that's probably come more from the practice of like meditation, 225 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: of being able to slow down and notice a little 226 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: bit more. 227 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 3: I think, are there. 228 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 2: Any other practices or rituals that have served you well, 229 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,479 Speaker 2: particularly with maintaining boundaries? 230 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, asking for time is good. Let me get back 231 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: to you on that. I honestly, I do think it's 232 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: like the taking of the breath, like, so just like 233 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: that micro moment has served me well. I think of 234 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: like being able to slow down, but I'm not perfect 235 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: at that by any means, Like it is very much, 236 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 1: you know, something that I work on. I think also, 237 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: like again, it's kind of about that space to reflect 238 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: upon what's this yes for? So, like is this in 239 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: service of my values? Am I saying yes because like 240 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: it's a wholehearted yes? Or am I saying yes because 241 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: I feel I should? And so that's something like that 242 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: kind of reflection is helpful. There's always going to be 243 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: like a cost somewhere, So you know, is it a 244 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: cost to the energy I have for my kids, or 245 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: for my husband, or for my friends or just for myself. 246 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: So I think like, in terms of practice for boundaries, 247 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,439 Speaker 1: it's it is primarily that slowing down piece. 248 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 3: I think, Yeah, I. 249 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 2: Love that question. What is this yes for? Can you 250 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 2: give me a couple of examples of where you've had 251 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 2: to use that lately? 252 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. 253 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: So I got an email request for something a few 254 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,839 Speaker 1: weeks ago and I read I was like, oh, that's 255 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: like that's really cool, like I should and like automating resions, 256 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 1: like how am I going to create space in my 257 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,599 Speaker 1: calendar for this? And then I really thought about it 258 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: and I was like, you know, like what is this 259 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 1: in service of? And what is it going to cost 260 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: me by saying yes? And I thought about it and 261 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: then I was like, what would it be like to 262 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: say no? What would show up for me if I 263 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: was to say no? And actually it was nothing. It 264 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,559 Speaker 1: was like, that's an opportunity that I could have done, 265 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: but really the cost is not that great of me 266 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: saying no. But I think so often like we just 267 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: get so caught up in there the need for yes 268 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: without actually reflecting on what would be the cost of 269 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 1: the no. 270 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. I love that answer. I guess 271 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 2: it's a good segue into values, which you write a 272 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 2: lot about in your new book, Unstark, And I've also 273 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 2: loved hearing you talk about values on The Imperfect. I 274 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 2: remember you did an episode and maybe this was a 275 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 2: year ago or so, but it stuck with me, and 276 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,079 Speaker 2: you were talking about the value of health. And I've 277 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 2: always thought that health is one of my values. But 278 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 2: I remember you said health is not a value, and 279 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 2: it really it made me rethink a lot. So I 280 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,559 Speaker 2: want to know, like, where does someone start, Because it's 281 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 2: easy to talk about values, but I think it's actually 282 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 2: really hard to identify them. And I think that most 283 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 2: people are probably very out of touch with their values. 284 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 2: So where is the best place to start? Really? 285 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: Basically, I would often start with a questionnaire. Sounds like 286 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: a very kind of concrete, trivial way, but I think 287 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: it can offer us like a bit of a gateway 288 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:08,439 Speaker 1: to more in depth explorations. So I have a questionnaire 289 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: in my book. It's based upon one of Russ Harris, 290 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 1: who's the author of the Happiness Strap. One of his 291 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: question is and it's pulled in from some other acceptance 292 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: and commitment therapy researchers. But you know, you can go 293 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: and find it online, like you know values questionnaire, and 294 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: at least that's us like a place to start to 295 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: explore basically, what is it that I want my life 296 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: to stand for? So how do I want to show up? 297 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: And it's really kind of the quality of behavior rather 298 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 1: than maybe a moral or a virtue. There are also 299 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: some you know, some more kind of reflective ways in 300 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: which we can access our values. The eightieth birthday exercises 301 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: a very common one which we'll use in therapy, but 302 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: in essence, it's asking you to reflect upon like a 303 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: milestone event in many years time, and that at this 304 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: milestone event you have, you invite friends and family to 305 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: do a speech abou and the question is what is 306 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: it that you would want them to say about you, 307 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: whether you're acting this way or not. Now, what is 308 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: it that you would deeply like them to say about 309 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: how you've lived your life? And often that will uncover 310 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: the things that are most important, so things like you know, 311 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: I hope to be remembered for being caring, or being 312 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: curious or being creative. And so we can kind of 313 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: use that as again as like a platform to really 314 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: kind of get a stronger sense like how do I 315 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: want to show up? 316 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 2: I think yeah, I love that eightieth birthday party exercise 317 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 2: that you write about in Unstuck. How do you know, like, 318 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 2: how does it show up in therapy when you're the 319 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 2: therapist that someone is either not in touch with their 320 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 2: values or is living out of alignment with them. Yeah. 321 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, usually it will be that like to put a 322 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: very plan that they'll be stuck, that there'll be some 323 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: sort of stuckness here. So there's a sense here that 324 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: there's a gap between my values and my behavior. So if, 325 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: for example, we might have someone that values let's just say, 326 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: like curiosity, for example, but they're finding through a lot 327 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: of struggle that they're getting caught on an autopilot all 328 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: the time. Maybe they're scrolling on their phone a lot. 329 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: There's like the mood is very flat, they're kind of 330 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: going through the motions, and so it might feel there 331 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: that we've kind of lost connection with this value of curiosity, 332 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 1: because curiosity is one of kind of growth and openness, 333 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: whereas like through daily struggles, we can get of course 334 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: pulled into whatever is easiest and what feels the least painful, 335 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: and that can be avoidant behaviors. So the presence of 336 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: avoidance and behaviors that provide quick relief or relief from 337 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 1: some kind of pain often signal or values disconnection. 338 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, your clients generally aware of that when when they're 339 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 2: describing that behavior to you, or does it often take you, 340 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 2: as an external trained professional to point that discrepancy out. 341 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: I think it's both. You know, so some people will 342 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: never have thought about values before, and some people may 343 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: not actually be aware that this kind of discomfort that's 344 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: here is highlighting that they're in misalignment with their values, 345 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,880 Speaker 1: whereas other people know, and that can also be really painful, 346 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: Like this recognition that I have, like these are my values, 347 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,679 Speaker 1: that I'm acting inconsistently with them, and I think that 348 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: can kind of open people up to feeling shame or 349 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 1: feeling a great sadness or a disappointment. So I think 350 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:32,640 Speaker 1: it can be both that we can have an awareness 351 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: of our values or we can just be really disconnected 352 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 1: from them. But where our behavior sits is another story. 353 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 2: I think we will be back with M soon, and 354 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 2: when we come back, we will dive into her go 355 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 2: to tool for working with your values and how you 356 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 2: can take back control from the thoughts that are dragging 357 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 2: you down. If you're looking for more tips to improve 358 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 2: the way you work and live. I write a short 359 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 2: weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered that have helped 360 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 2: me personally. You can sign up for that at Amantha 361 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:14,439 Speaker 2: dot com. That's Amantha dot com. One of the things 362 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 2: that I've heard you talk about and you write about 363 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 2: in Unstuck is that values are bidirectional. Can you explain 364 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 2: what that means? 365 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: Yes? Yeah, Like, as a people pleaser, for example, we 366 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: might hold values around being kind and being caring. So 367 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: you would assume then that, like the active being kind 368 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: is towards other people, So my behavior is consistent with 369 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 1: the value of kindness when I'm showing up in kind 370 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: ways to other people. But what I didn't realize, and 371 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 1: what only kind of came to like to me a 372 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 1: few years ago, was that actually, if I value being kind, 373 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: I also value being kind to myself. And so that 374 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: might mean, for example, like boundaries, So an active kindness 375 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:00,479 Speaker 1: might be putting a boundary in place rather than pleasing 376 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: everybody else in order to be kind. So it's a 377 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: bit of a balancing act of being able to recognize 378 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: and again, like tune in, am I showing out to 379 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 1: my values by over exerting myself all the time, Or 380 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: am I showing out to my values by saying no 381 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: or putting a boundary in place or speaking up when 382 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: someone's being rude for example? But it's a really tough ask. 383 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, are there examples in your own life where 384 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 2: you feel like you have a value and then you're like, actually, no, 385 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 2: that's not bidirectional in terms of how I'm acting. 386 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 1: Oh look, I can certainly relate to the people pleasing 387 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,919 Speaker 1: one absolutely that most definitely shows up to me. I 388 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: think there are times like I definitely have a value 389 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:49,239 Speaker 1: around curiosity, And sometimes it might mean that I'm not 390 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: being curious about my own experience but just being curious 391 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 1: about others. And so that would be an example, because 392 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: when I'm not curious about what's happening inside my body 393 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 1: and my mind, I'm missing a whole of information. So 394 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: that would be one example. You know, there could be 395 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: values in there around like, for example, being respectful that 396 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: I might hold a value of being really respectful of others. 397 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 1: But when I deny my own needs, am I being 398 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 1: respectful to myself? So there's a whole other ways we 399 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: can kind of look at it, you know, in that sense. 400 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, the curiosity one is interesting. That definitely resonates with me. 401 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 2: It's definitely a core value. And I feel like, you know, 402 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 2: I mean like as a podcast host, you kind of 403 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,159 Speaker 2: get you know if you do and get skilled asking questions. 404 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 2: But I feel like just in day to day conversations, 405 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 2: I will walk away from so many conversations going I 406 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 2: asked so many questions and I learned so much about 407 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 2: the other person, but I don't think they actually learned 408 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 2: that much about me, you know. And I realized, like 409 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 2: I studied Gastoll therapy in my twenties and just what's 410 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 2: stuck with me. One of the things that stuck with 411 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,120 Speaker 2: me was that everything is co created. And when I 412 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 2: kind of go jump to blame, which is the easiest 413 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 2: thing to do when you're not happy about something, I 414 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 2: always step back and go, Okay, how did I contribute 415 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 2: to that experience? And I do wonder like can you 416 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 2: relate to that about like, you know, you're a psychologist, 417 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 2: You're used to asking questions and being curious, but. 418 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 3: Could you relate to that. 419 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 2: And what do you do? What do you do? 420 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: Yeah? I so relate to that because it is like 421 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: this default mode I think as therapists. We're trained to 422 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:27,959 Speaker 1: pay attention to other people and to tune in and 423 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: to be curious and to ask questions and my like 424 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 1: in interactions often with friends, I have a lot of 425 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 1: discomfort in talking about like all this stuff. For example, 426 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,199 Speaker 1: I find it very uncomfortable. I would far prefer to 427 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: divert to questions about what's happening for the other person, 428 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: which is fine, but you're absolutely right there is you know, 429 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: sometimes you could walk away and feel like. 430 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:51,959 Speaker 2: Was that? 431 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: How authentic was that? What was I trying to move 432 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,679 Speaker 1: away from by asking the question? And how much did 433 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: they get to know me by me or deflecting? I 434 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 1: think that that's a really interesting frame there that you're 435 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: talking about, is like this kind of co creation here, 436 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 1: what are we co creating when one party is receiving 437 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: the other person is not. 438 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 2: How do you then, like after you know you like, 439 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 2: you're obviously aware of this behavior, what's been your solution 440 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 2: asking for a friend? 441 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 1: Yes, a good question, It's still it is a work 442 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: in progress. I do feel like that achievement feels really 443 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 1: important and being able to name like in the moment, 444 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 1: even like I do talk in the book and in 445 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,199 Speaker 1: the work that I do like, as you would know, 446 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: like working a lot with that in a dialogue and 447 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 1: being able to notice and name like that in a 448 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: critic that's showing up, or even kind of gently using 449 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: some kind of compassionate response here does Emily, it's okay, 450 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 1: you can stay with this for a moment, or just 451 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: kind of noticing like my yearning to go to the 452 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: other person and just to notice and just let it 453 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 1: be okay, it is okay for this tension to be here. 454 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: But that's all kind of this very quick, rapid internalized 455 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: response which I never you know, I'm not getting this 456 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 1: right all the time, but it's like an intention I 457 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: think to try and slow down just to catch that 458 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,400 Speaker 1: and to use some kind of like noticing language. 459 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,159 Speaker 2: I think I want to talk about some other ways 460 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 2: to work with values, and one of the tools that 461 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 2: you write about is the act Bullseye tool, which I 462 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 2: think is really useful. Can you explain how you work, like, 463 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 2: what is that tool and how do you work with Yeah. 464 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 1: So it was developed by Tobias lun lunged Wren. I 465 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,239 Speaker 1: think I'm going to pronounce that in correctly. Who's an 466 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: act therapist? And you know, if you imagine a bullseye. 467 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 1: We've got like the center circle, and then we have 468 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: concentric circles that come outwards from that, and that particular 469 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: bulls eye divides the circle into quadrants according to domains 470 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 1: of life, for example, So we might have relationships, work, hobbies, 471 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: self care, for example. And what it invites you to 472 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: do is to choose one domain and on the bullseye 473 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 1: where you think your behavior or how consistently you believe 474 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 1: your behavior is in accordance with the bulls eye. So 475 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: if you mark right in the center of that bulls eye, 476 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: you would say that my behavior is absolutely consistent with 477 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,360 Speaker 1: this value here. But most often in therapy, that's not 478 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,199 Speaker 1: what people would be marking. Most often it would be 479 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: that my behavior is on an outer ring of that bullseye. 480 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: And so the bigger the gap we get between where 481 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: my behavior is and where I'd like it to be, 482 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,360 Speaker 1: usually the more distressed there is. And so, for example, 483 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: like in parenting, it might be that your values around 484 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: kind of showing up, so to speak, or kind of 485 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: the way your parent might be a compassionate stance, for example, 486 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: And so you may value this really deeply, but often 487 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,639 Speaker 1: you might get caught up in reactivity, and so it 488 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 1: might mean that you're reactive with the kids and not 489 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: ever around blame, but just noticing that that behavior feels 490 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,239 Speaker 1: inconsistent with the way I want to show up. And 491 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: so in that instance, we might be marking our like 492 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: where we are on that comfort zone further out from 493 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: where we want to be. 494 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 2: That's interesting. It also makes me wonder how much the 495 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 2: values change. Like values obviously change over time, but from 496 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:19,239 Speaker 2: your experience and you know, working with people as a therapist, like, 497 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 2: over what time frame do you see that things shift? 498 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: Look, I actually don't know what the research says technically 499 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: around whether our values are changing across the lifespan. In 500 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 1: my opinion, I think that they can evolve. Certainly, we 501 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: might have some core ones that we're kind of constantly 502 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,120 Speaker 1: coming back to. But I think the thing about values 503 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: is that, yes, because we're human, they can change. So 504 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 1: we're constantly in a state of change. 505 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 3: But in terms of like. 506 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: How that shifts back towards behavior and behavioral change. The 507 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 1: thing that I love about working with values is that 508 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: you can show up to your values moment to moment. 509 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: We don't have to wait for the right condition to 510 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: do it, So you know, even if, like today, I 511 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: actually consistently with my values, tomorrow I can get back 512 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: on board again. Like there's no end goal. There's values 513 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: are like heading west. We never get there. It is 514 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 1: just an ongoing direction to kind of return to. So 515 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,399 Speaker 1: a little bit like this compass. So yep, you know, 516 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 1: I fell off the horse today, but tomorrow I just 517 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:19,719 Speaker 1: get back on and then I see how I can 518 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: head back in the direction again. I think in therapy 519 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: what we would see is that maybe we're more consistently 520 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: noticing when we've fallen off the horse and maybe more 521 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 1: consistently making effort to get back on again. But there's never, 522 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: like ever, you know, a perfect direction to be heading. 523 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to talk about cognitive fusion and cognitive diffusion. 524 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 2: Can you define what cognitive fusion? 525 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: Yes? 526 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 2: Is? 527 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: Yes? So, cognitive fusion is basically when we like, if 528 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: you imagine that we weld two pieces of metal together, 529 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 1: they're stuck together. And if we think about this in 530 00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 1: terms of the mind and yourself when you have thought, 531 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: let's just say the thought is I'm not good enough. 532 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: Cognitive fusion is when I believe that thought to be 533 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: a fact, when I kind of weld myself together with 534 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 1: that thought, and we believe those thoughts to be true. 535 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 1: We hold very tightly to those thoughts as though they 536 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 1: are telling us a gospel for example. Yeah, so when 537 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,239 Speaker 1: we hold really tightly to thoughts and we believe them 538 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 1: to be so true all of the time, we will 539 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: find that that fusion for myself with the thought really 540 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: directs our behavior and often narrows our choices. So if 541 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 1: I believe that I'm a failure, or if I believe 542 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,120 Speaker 1: I can't do it, if I hold really tightly onto 543 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 1: that thought, it might mean that I don't put my 544 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 1: hand up for a promotion, or I don't set goals 545 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,399 Speaker 1: that might be a little bit out of age, or 546 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: I don't pursue things. And so we can see here 547 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,400 Speaker 1: where when we fuse with that thought, when I get 548 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 1: really entangled in that thought, it narrows what's called my 549 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,880 Speaker 1: repertoire of behaviors, So my choices of behavior. 550 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,439 Speaker 2: I would love to know. I'm in the obvious question. 551 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 2: How how do we unfuse? How do we defuse? 552 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:18,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, so when we think about diffusion, basically what we're 553 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 1: doing is pulling apart ourself from the thoughts. So we're 554 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: gaining a space between me and the thoughts that I'm having. 555 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: And there are a multitude of ways in which we 556 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: can practice diffusion. The process of diffusion the simplest way 557 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 1: that I can kind of describe it. I don't actually 558 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: think I put this in the book, but I don't know. 559 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: If you remember, a long, long time ago at Melbourne Zoo, 560 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: they had a tiger enclosure. Every time I went as 561 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: a young kid, I would always see the tiger just 562 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: pacing up and down inside the enclosure. Yeah, that was 563 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: all it was, doing the same track up and down. 564 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: That to me is like cognitive fusion. Like I am 565 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: just on this narrow pathway, I'm sewing gross there's no 566 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: other choices. I'm stuck in this enclosure, in this one 567 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: little space. With cognitive diffusion, it's like we're the observer 568 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: watching the tiger going up and down. So I'm on 569 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: the other side of the glass as this visitor to 570 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 1: the zoo, and I'm watching the tiger go up and down, 571 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: up and down, but I am not the tiger. And 572 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: so diffusion is noticing that I can have the thoughts, 573 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: but I don't have to be driven by them, and 574 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: we use that, or we cultivate this kind of way 575 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: of relating through using what's called observing language or noticing language. So, 576 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: for example, if I have the thought I'm a failure, 577 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: I might say to myself, I'm such a failure. 578 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 3: How could I do this? 579 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: If it were to practice diffusion, it would be something like, ahuh, 580 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 1: I'm noticing. I'm having the thought that I'm such a failure. 581 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 1: So it's not banishing thoughts, getting rid of them, or 582 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: challenging them even it's just slowing it down to notice 583 00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: that there is a part of me that can observe 584 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: and that gives me a little bit more spaciousness. 585 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 2: I'd love to know. I mean, there are so many 586 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 2: different cognitive diffusion strategies and you write about a lot 587 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 2: of them in Unstuck. What are your go to once, 588 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 2: just on. 589 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 1: A day to day basis, Oh, I definitely use I'm noticing. 590 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: So I would often say like, yep, thanks mind, I'm noticing. 591 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 1: I hear you. So it's often kind of like again, 592 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: like not punishing the thoughts for being there, but just 593 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: noticing like I hear you. Yep, that's understandable, I've got this. 594 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: So things like that, I also do find there's an 595 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: example in there of a very classic act intervention which 596 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: is called leaves on a stream. And this is this 597 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: idea that if you imagine sitting by the side of 598 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: a stream and you see leaves floating down the stream, 599 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 1: a practice which we would do in far more death 600 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: than I'm explaining right now, but that you would imagine 601 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: that anytime a thought arises into the mind, we place 602 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 1: that thought onto a leaf and we watch it float 603 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: down the stream. So it's just this practice really of 604 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 1: watching thoughts rather than being in thoughts. And it's with 605 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: this kind of more spacious awareness where I can observe 606 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: rather than be in it, that we really are hopefully 607 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: opening up to more choice around like what to do next, 608 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: and also to even examine like what's called like the 609 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: workability of thoughts. You know, if I hold tightly to 610 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: this thought, does this bring me closer to my value direction? 611 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: What happens if I loosen the grip a bit on 612 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: this thought? Could there be alternatives? Could there be other 613 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: ways here? 614 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 2: I could definitely relate. Actually, I think that my go 615 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 2: to cognitive diffusion strategy is just putting I'm having the 616 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 2: thought that in front of any problematic I mean, that 617 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 2: sounds very judgmental, but any unhelpful thought that I am having, 618 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 2: and I reckon. I always use that on a weekly basis, 619 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 2: I reckon. Yeah, yeah, I find that helpful. I find 620 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 2: that so helpful. I feel like I've tried them all, 621 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 2: you know. I remember when I was learning about act 622 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 2: many many years ago, and you know, I've tried singing 623 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 2: the thoughts happy birthday and all the kind of interesting 624 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 2: creative ways out there. But I just I keep coming 625 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 2: back to that, And it's something that I've talked to 626 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 2: a lot of clients that invent him as well, and 627 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 2: I just think it's so it's so simple and helpful. 628 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 2: And I think when you learn about cognitive diffusion, the 629 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 2: idea that hang on thoughts are just words. Yeah, that 630 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 2: just seems revolutionary, even though it is also very very obvious. 631 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 2: So I always just keep coming back to that they're 632 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 2: just words. 633 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 1: They are, but yet we stick to them, like, but 634 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: we also don't notice all the thoughts that we have 635 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: that we don't stick to. So like all of these 636 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: mental events just like passing through the mind, but some 637 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: of them are stickier than others. 638 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I always love to know, Like when you 639 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 2: put a book out into the world, Like, what has 640 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 2: resonated most with people so far? What have you found 641 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 2: is stuck with people from unstuck. 642 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:47,719 Speaker 1: I Actually, I think one of the things that's come 643 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 1: out most commonly has been around the inner critic and 644 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 1: like this role that the innocritic plays and how hard 645 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: it is for us to work with self compassion. I 646 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: think that has been something that's stuck out is that 647 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: we know from the research this self compassion is so 648 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: important not only for how we care for ourselves, but 649 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: also like how we can really productively show up, but 650 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 1: it doesn't come naturally. And so I guess like that's 651 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,239 Speaker 1: probably the thing that has stood out, is that we 652 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: all have this in a critic that can really knock 653 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 1: us around and push us around in directions that takes 654 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: us into a place of more suffering. And I think 655 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: maybe in some ways the pathway through that has been 656 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: like how we work with those emotions in a really 657 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: compassionate way. 658 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 2: It's been such a joy to sit down with you 659 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 2: after listening to so many episodes you've done on The 660 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 2: Imperfect and reading your book, it's just been such a 661 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 2: privilege to sit down and chat psychology. 662 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 1: It's a privilege to be here man, I really appreciate it. 663 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 2: I hope you enjoy it this chat with doctor M. 664 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 2: And I personally think that if you are looking to 665 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 2: get stuck into your values and trying to identify what 666 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 2: are they really recommend trying out that eightieth birthday exercise 667 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 2: that she recommended. And if you want to learn more 668 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 2: about doctor M, check out her new book, Unstuck, and 669 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 2: links to that are in the show notes. If you 670 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 2: like today's show, make sure you hit follow on your 671 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 2: podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop. How 672 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 2: I Work was recorded on the traditional land of the 673 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:24,879 Speaker 2: Warrangery people, part of the Kulin nation.