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Speaker 1: Hello there, It's Amantha.

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Speaker 2: I'm currently on a Christmas break, so I've handpicked a

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Speaker 2: bunch of my favorite episodes from the last year to

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Speaker 2: share with you. Okay, on with today's best of episode,

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Speaker 2: how are you coping with this whole global pandemic thing.

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Speaker 2: I'm in Melbourne in Lockdown number six and it is

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Speaker 2: pretty tough going. I feel like I'm more reliant on

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Speaker 2: my devices than ever before because they're like a window

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Speaker 2: to the outside world. But I have a feeling that

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Speaker 2: checking ABC News ten times a day isn't very good

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Speaker 2: for my mental health. So in today's show, I have

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Speaker 2: an alternative to share. My name is doctor Ramantha Imba.

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Speaker 2: I'm an organizational psychologist and founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium,

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Speaker 2: and this is how I work, a show about how

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Speaker 2: to help you do your best work. I'm trying something

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Speaker 2: different today because Lockdown could be a bit lonely, so

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Speaker 2: I thought it might be fun to have a little

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Speaker 2: catch up with a fellow productivity nerd, my mate, Lisa Lyong.

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Speaker 2: Lisa is the host of the top ranking ABC podcast

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Speaker 2: This Working Life, and she is just an all around

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Speaker 2: awesome person I've known for years. Lisa was keen to

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Speaker 2: know more about some new calendar software I've been using

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Speaker 2: that has changed my life. But we start by having

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Speaker 2: a chat about a ritual that Lisa has been trying

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Speaker 2: lately called a tech sabbath.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was something that did emerge out of COVID

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Speaker 3: and when I think it was March last year, we

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Speaker 3: noticed that there was a lack of contextual markers when

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Speaker 3: we all started working from home. And Colin James, who

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Speaker 3: does a lot of work in the communications space, he

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Speaker 3: used this term, and I just think it's fantastic to say,

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Speaker 3: our contextual markers are the things that we did as

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Speaker 3: we commuted to work. For example, it's making your first

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Speaker 3: cup of coffee, it's even putting on your work clothes.

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Speaker 3: So these are the things that remind us all we're

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Speaker 3: in work mode.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 3: With all of these disappearing when we were working from home,

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Speaker 3: we lost all sense of time and work just got overwhelming.

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Speaker 3: And I definitely found myself in that place, and so

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Speaker 3: I started to look for routines and rituals that would

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Speaker 3: support me in just trying to bring a bit more

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Speaker 3: I guess focus in my life and consciousness. And we

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Speaker 3: came across the work of Kasper to Kyle, who studied

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Speaker 3: at the Harvard Divinity School, he's actually non denominational. He's

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Speaker 3: just really fascinated in ancient wisdom in religious practices. And

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Speaker 3: in his book he actually focuses on something called the

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Speaker 3: Friday tech Sabbath, So it's a secular ritual, but it

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Speaker 3: does look at the beautiful ritual of Shabbat, and from

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Speaker 3: sundown Friday until sundown Saturday. In the secular version, you're

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Speaker 3: just switching off all your devices, so it's my bile

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Speaker 3: phone and laptop predominantly.

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Speaker 1: And you know, so I just tried.

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Speaker 2: That, Like, how did it go? What would you remember

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Speaker 2: the very first tech Sabbath that you did, and what

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Speaker 2: that felt like.

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Speaker 3: The first time I tried it, I did. I was

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Speaker 3: very strict, so I turned off my phone and I

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Speaker 3: turned off my laptop and I actually put them away.

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Speaker 3: And I noticed that on the Saturday my hand.

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Speaker 1: Kept on twitching trying to reach for my phone. My

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Speaker 1: body was sort of like it was so weird. So

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Speaker 1: that was the main thing that I noticed.

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Speaker 3: And then I did notice when I switched back my

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Speaker 3: phone that I had actually felt a little bit more refreshed,

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Speaker 3: so all the noise had sort of dissipated, but definitely

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Speaker 3: at the start, I was feeling anxious because like, nobody

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Speaker 3: could contact me, Amanda, I know.

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Speaker 2: And that's what I was going to ask, like, I mean,

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Speaker 2: did you make any provisions for let's just say there

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Speaker 2: was a family emergency and your phone switched off? Like,

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Speaker 2: how does that work?

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Speaker 3: So the practical things that I had to do was

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Speaker 3: before I switched off my phone on the Friday. You

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Speaker 3: do have to really spend maybe an hour preparing things

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Speaker 3: because on the Saturday, if I was going out to

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Speaker 3: a cafe, I would just let people know who needed

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Speaker 3: to know I'll be at this cafe at that time.

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Speaker 3: So it's basically going back to a world before your

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Speaker 3: mobile phone. So then I got a bit slack, to

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Speaker 3: be honest, because I was doing it by myself. So

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Speaker 3: the two point zero version of the text e as

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Speaker 3: ritual was enlisting our mutual acquaintance and friend, Pinny Lacasso,

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Speaker 3: So we came up with more of a ritual.

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Speaker 1: So the ritual was literally light a candle, dance to

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Speaker 1: a song.

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Speaker 3: We had a chant or a mantra, which is I

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Speaker 3: am enough, that was enough, and it's time to shut

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Speaker 3: off our devices and let them sleep and then we

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Speaker 3: would blow out the candle. And it was much more

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Speaker 3: effective doing it with someone else, because I think there

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Speaker 3: is something about mutual accountability knowing that you're not alone

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Speaker 3: in this. And also I do want to cheat because

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Speaker 3: I didn't want her to catch me out.

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Speaker 2: And now I know that something else that you did

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Speaker 2: is you actually got a song commissioned.

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Speaker 3: I had come across an amazing singer songwriter called Little

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Speaker 3: Green Amy Nelson, and she.

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Speaker 1: Sort of just.

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Speaker 3: Creates just beautiful, really clean, beautiful songs, and she plays

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Speaker 3: all of the instruments, so she has self taught herself

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Speaker 3: seven different instruments.

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Speaker 1: And so I.

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Speaker 3: Contacted her and just said, Amy, here's a concept, and

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Speaker 3: I just gave her exactly what I gave to you,

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Speaker 3: just then this is what it is. And she came

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Speaker 3: up with this incredible song, which is now the song

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Speaker 3: that we listened to a dark too when we do

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Speaker 3: it our Friday take seventh.

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Speaker 2: Amazing and let's let's listen to a bit of that song.

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Speaker 4: Now, Free your Mind is Friday. Close your eyes and

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Speaker 4: say goodbye to Cyber. Free your Mind is Friday. Good

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Speaker 4: night too. Oh device maybe it was a tough week

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Speaker 4: maybe it was good. Maybe nothing when like your thought

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Speaker 4: it would.

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Speaker 5: But night it's Friday. So I am enough. You are enough.

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Speaker 5: We are enough. I am enough. You are enough. We

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Speaker 5: are enough. I am enough, you are enough. We ironough

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Speaker 5: it's sweet dreams.

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Speaker 3: Beloved laptop, my beloved mobs, give you a break as

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Speaker 3: well as my earlobes. Stop the coobland screens, Stop the

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Speaker 3: bitch watching audio book, Thanks for the space frolic in nature,

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Speaker 3: get lost in the street, no GPS to take yours.

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Speaker 2: That is such a beautiful song, Lisa.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it's like hatche, isn't it?

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Speaker 3: And it just she has so beautifully captured the whole field.

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Speaker 1: I think of a I take Sabbath. Did you notice

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Speaker 1: that I was rappy at the end.

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Speaker 5: That's me?

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Speaker 2: Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: Would you give it a go?

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Speaker 2: I would definitely give it a go. Funnily enough, so,

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Speaker 2: I don't sleep with my mobile phone in my room.

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Speaker 2: So my mobile phone sleeps downstairs. I sleep upstairs. And

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Speaker 2: a few weeks ago my parents actually said to me,

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Speaker 2: because I don't have a landline, that would probably be

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Speaker 2: weird to have a landline. But my parents said to me,

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Speaker 2: what if we have an emergency in the middle of

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Speaker 2: the night, how do we contact you? And I said, well,

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Speaker 2: there's no way of actually contacting me. And so my

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Speaker 2: dad had a spare phone and he has now brought

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Speaker 2: that over. He bought a SIM card for it. And

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Speaker 2: so I do have this phone, like it's an iPhone

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Speaker 2: that sleeps next to me, but literally the only function

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Speaker 2: it has because every call is blocked except for calls

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Speaker 2: from my mom or my dad's mobile, So it sleeps

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Speaker 2: next to me if there's an emergency. So that would

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Speaker 2: be the one thing that I would worry about, like

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Speaker 2: if there was an emergency with my daughter or with

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Speaker 2: my parents, how would people contact me? But that could

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Speaker 2: actually be overcome by how I've overcome that. I'm not

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Speaker 2: contactable pretty much between the hours of nine pm at

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Speaker 2: night and say six or seven am in the morning.

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Speaker 1: I call that my burner phone as that.

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Speaker 3: So I do actually have a really old school Nokia

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Speaker 3: And you've just reminded me which I sometimes had put

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Speaker 3: my SIM card in if I was like, you know what,

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Speaker 3: I probably do need to be contactable, but I don't

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Speaker 3: actually want to have a phone that reminds me of work.

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Speaker 1: It's just that when.

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Speaker 3: I was trying to use it because it is so

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Speaker 3: old school it's really hard to use. I client of

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Speaker 3: gave up on it, but I did try that for

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Speaker 3: a little while, and I wonder whether that would be

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Speaker 3: you know, as you say, a really good option is

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Speaker 3: just a really you know, one of those real old phone,

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Speaker 3: so you can't be tempted at all.

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Speaker 2: A nockier was it like.

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Speaker 3: Sixty one or something and everything I sort of felt

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Speaker 3: vaguely cool until I was so frustrated that I couldn't

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Speaker 3: use it anymore.

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Speaker 2: Now, something that I'm excited about is new software that

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Speaker 2: I've been using to manage my to do list and

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Speaker 2: calendar workflow.

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Speaker 1: Oh I love your hacks, So describe this one.

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Speaker 2: Okay, See this software is called Motion, but just to

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Speaker 2: make it super confusing, there's actually two software solutions for

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Speaker 2: calendars called Motion. So the one that I am talking

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Speaker 2: about is motion dot io. That is the website and

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Speaker 2: I will link to that in the show notes. And

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Speaker 2: I actually I got recommended to it by John Zaratsky,

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Speaker 2: who was a guest on the show quite a while ago,

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Speaker 2: and he's quite well known for co writing Sprint, which

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Speaker 2: is the book about Google Ventures designs. Sprint process with

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Speaker 2: Jack Nap, and also with Jack Napp wrote the book

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Speaker 2: Make Time, which is a brilliant book around productivity and

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Speaker 2: tax and things like that. So John said that something

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Speaker 2: he's been using he's been playing around with different calendar software,

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Speaker 2: and so that's how I got into Motion and what

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Speaker 2: I love like. So prior to Motion, my workflow is

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Speaker 2: I would use Things as my to do list software,

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Speaker 2: and I would have a list for deep work tasks

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Speaker 2: that I need to get done, so things that typically

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Speaker 2: going to require at least an hour of my time

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Speaker 2: and deep concentration, and then a shallow work list things

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Speaker 2: that are quick and easy and simple to do or

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Speaker 2: don't require a lot of brain power. And then what

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Speaker 2: I would have to do is, I would, you know,

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Speaker 2: if I'm planning my week and I time box my diary,

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Speaker 2: so I essentially set meetings with myself to complete deep

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Speaker 2: work tasks, and then I also have reminders for like

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Speaker 2: quick things that I need to do within Google Calendar.

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Speaker 2: I'd sort of be, you know, checking my to do

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Speaker 2: list every now and then and then timeboxing and then

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Speaker 2: I'd have my reminders, but some reminders would sort of

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Speaker 2: carry on over for several days before I got to

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Speaker 2: them and it was all like a bit messy and imperfect.

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Speaker 2: And what I love about Motion, and I've never seen

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Speaker 2: this before in calendar software, is that it combines both

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Speaker 2: of those software, if you like, into the one. So

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Speaker 2: on the left hand side of my screen that is

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Speaker 2: my task list, and so I can create new tasks

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Speaker 2: within my calendar software, I can allocate how much time

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Speaker 2: I think they will take me, and then I can

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Speaker 2: drag and drop those tasks into my calendar, which takes

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Speaker 2: up the rest of the screen. So the majority of

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Speaker 2: the screen is my calendar, like the view that you

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Speaker 2: would see on Google Calendar, but there's a column down

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Speaker 2: the left hand side that is my task list, and

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Speaker 2: so it will drag and I'll drag and drop those

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Speaker 2: into my days, so I can timebox effectively. And then

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Speaker 2: what I also love, because we've time boxing, the time passes,

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Speaker 2: you finish your task and it's like okay, good, done that,

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Speaker 2: onto the next but you don't get that beautiful dopamine

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Speaker 2: hit of ticking something off the list if you timebox

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Speaker 2: in the traditional way. But with Motion, there's a little box,

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Speaker 2: a little white box that you tick when you've done

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Speaker 2: the task, and then it does like a little animation

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Speaker 2: and then it's marked off as done, and then it

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Speaker 2: becomes kind of grayed out. And then the other thing

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Speaker 2: that I really love is that if I'm ahead of schedule,

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Speaker 2: if I've basically overestimated how much time my task will take,

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Speaker 2: I can look sort of to further in the day

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Speaker 2: and go, oh, I think I might try to tackle

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Speaker 2: this thing, but I'd plan for the afternoon and then

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Speaker 2: I tick it off and then it moves itself to

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Speaker 2: the morning once it's done, and then I've got some

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Speaker 2: free time. So it is gold. It has completely changed

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Speaker 2: my workflow around how I manage my calendar.

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Speaker 3: So in terms of the task list, I think it's

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Speaker 3: really important to understand how big are the task that

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Speaker 3: you're putting in your task list on the left hand side,

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Speaker 3: and what would you define as being a.

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Speaker 2: Task, So it is all sorts of things. So it

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Speaker 2: might be like, for example, today, I've got a two

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Speaker 2: hour task that I've time blocked for when we stop talking, Lisa,

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Speaker 2: and that is I have a keynote coming up that

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Speaker 2: I feel like I need about two hours to like

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Speaker 2: kind of iterate a current keynote to turn into this

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Speaker 2: final keynote that I'm delivering in about a week's time,

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Speaker 2: so that's a two hour time block. But then I'll

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Speaker 2: also have quick five minute tasks like I had to

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Speaker 2: make a couple of phone calls today for example.

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Speaker 3: And then are you putting together your task list the

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Speaker 3: night before or a week in advance or.

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Speaker 2: No, it's ongoing. So whenever a task comes into my mind,

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Speaker 2: I put it on the task list, and then when

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Speaker 2: I'm at my computer, my desktop, I then allocate time

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Speaker 2: to it. So essentially I'm running task list zero, kind

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Speaker 2: of like inbox zero where you've cleaned out in bogs,

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Speaker 2: but it's taskless zero because every task that you have

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Speaker 2: now has time allocated to it in the diary, which

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Speaker 2: I think is very very powerful, Like psychologically, that feels

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Speaker 2: really good.

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Speaker 3: And then my final question is because I've also been

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Speaker 3: timeboxing for quite a while and I find it really helpful.

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Speaker 3: But sometimes I look at my diary and I'm quite

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Speaker 3: frightened because every it looks like everything is accountable. I mean,

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Speaker 3: it looks like wall to wall meetings, even though I

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Speaker 3: know it's not. How do you feel about looking at

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Speaker 3: a calendar, which you know, pretty much at first glance,

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Speaker 3: looks very full.

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't do that, so I don't fill up

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Speaker 2: my calendar. I don't book myself at one hundred percent.

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Speaker 2: So I got that tip actually from Darren Murph, who

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Speaker 2: is the head of remote at git Lab, who I

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Speaker 2: had on how I work quite a while ago now,

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Speaker 2: and one of his big things was he never books

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Speaker 2: himself at one hundred percent because it doesn't allow for

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Speaker 2: things going wrong, emergency is happening, things running over time.

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Speaker 2: And also I heard this echoed from Nicky Sparshot, who

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Speaker 2: heads up Unilever for Australia and New Zealand, and she

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Speaker 2: tries to put ninety minutes of buffer time in her

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Speaker 2: diary every day. So for me, I generally have some

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Speaker 2: buffer time. I'll always block out lunch so I will

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Speaker 2: have a lunch break. But you know, look that's also

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Speaker 2: contingency if something goes wrong and I need to actually

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Speaker 2: do a bit of work there. But also I tend

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Speaker 2: not to book anything after about three point thirty or

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Speaker 2: four o'clock in the afternoon.

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Speaker 1: So that's actually blank.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just blank.

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Speaker 3: So near Ale, who both of us who have spoken

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Speaker 3: to and who is you know, sort of has his

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Speaker 3: own approach to time boxing. So he accounts for all time,

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Speaker 3: and that includes downtime. So in his calendar it'll say, say,

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Speaker 3: from three point thirty do nothing time. But even so

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Speaker 3: that is blocked out. And so what I was playing

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Speaker 3: around with is like I'll put in some health thing first,

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Speaker 3: so it might be my morning routine or my lunch

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Speaker 3: break or but it is all accounted for. So I

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Speaker 3: think I am playing around with. Or if I put

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Speaker 3: that in my diary, I know it's definitely accounted for.

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Speaker 3: But unless it's a different color, it can sometimes look

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Speaker 3: scarier than it is in reality.

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Speaker 2: I'd say definitely. I think color coding diary like it's

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Speaker 2: just a good hack, so visually it's not overwhelming, but.

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Speaker 3: I like maybe going blank, although people can then like

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Speaker 3: put in invites, whereas if I block it out, then

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Speaker 3: at least you know, I've got a little note that

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Speaker 3: sort of says, actually that's blocked out for you know,

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Speaker 3: afternoon sleep.

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Speaker 2: I just I just block it out and do not

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Speaker 2: book in capital letters in a really aggressive kind of sod. Lisa,

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Speaker 2: it has been great chatting with you. We have to

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Speaker 2: do this again sometime. I love chatting to fellow productivity nerds.

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Speaker 3: I know it's so great, and good luck with the

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Speaker 3: motion trial and I'll report back as we go on

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Speaker 3: as well.

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Speaker 2: Hello. There, that is it for today's show. If you

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Speaker 2: enjoyed today's episode, why not share it with someone else

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Speaker 2: that you think would benefit and maybe get some useful

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Speaker 2: tips to improve the way that they work. How I

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Speaker 2: Work is produced by Inventing with production support from the

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Speaker 2: Dead Set Studios. And thank you to Martin Nimba who

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Speaker 2: does the audio mix for every show and makes everything

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Speaker 2: sound so much better than it would have otherwise. See

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Speaker 2: you next time.