Speaker 1: Already and this is this is the Daily This is
Speaker 1: the Daily ohs oh, now it makes sense.
Speaker 2: Good morning, and welcome to The Daily OS. My name
Speaker 2: is Sam Kozlowski. And on today's episode of our TDA
Speaker 2: summer series, we thought we'd bring you what was probably
Speaker 2: one of our proudest moments as an organization, and that
Speaker 2: was bringing an exclusive interview with ex AFL player Mitch
Speaker 2: Brown to light. In that interview, Mitch told us and
Speaker 2: told Australia that he was the first openly gay or
Speaker 2: bisexual male AFL player in the game's one hundred and
Speaker 2: twenty nine year history. It was an incredible moment and
Speaker 2: if we look back on that moment now, we can
Speaker 2: just see how much progress already has been made in
Speaker 2: this conversation and the continued work that Mitch has done
Speaker 2: since his interview with The Daily OS. For me personally,
Speaker 2: it was one of the most nerving interviews I've done
Speaker 2: in my years at TDA, because the stakes were high
Speaker 2: and it was honor to be trusted with Mitch's story.
Speaker 2: Here's that chat with Mitch and I and I think
Speaker 2: it's something that will all look back on as a
Speaker 2: key moment in twenty twenty five, let's talk about that identity,
Speaker 2: and let's talk about some of the stereotypes that exist
Speaker 2: around bisexuality. I want to kind of foreshadow what I
Speaker 2: think the comments section might look like on our chat,
Speaker 2: and I want to ask whether you're worried about being
Speaker 2: dismissed because you have a female partner and you present,
Speaker 2: as you've said, as what many would stereotype as a
Speaker 2: straight man.
Speaker 1: It does does worry me. It worries me to a point.
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, I'm strong enough.
Speaker 1: I know who I am, I know the people that
Speaker 1: I love, and that's all that matters to me. But
Speaker 1: I think, think through my experience what I've learned, and
Speaker 1: as I grew up, your sexuality or being queer for
Speaker 1: a man only meant you're either gay or you're not.
Speaker 1: There's no in between. Youither can't be, you can't love both,
Speaker 1: can't be sexually attracted to both. Bisexuality is not a thing.
Speaker 1: It's made up to cover gay men or straight presenting
Speaker 1: gay men, right, And this is what I've learned. One
Speaker 1: of the powerful lessons I've learned from our young people is,
Speaker 1: you know, I feel that young people here in Australia
Speaker 1: think of sexuality so different. It's so black and white.
Speaker 1: For older generations and for young people, sexuality means different things.
Speaker 1: Queerness means different things. Being a bisexual man can look different,
Speaker 1: and it does look different.
Speaker 2: Bisexual people face discrimination not just from the straight community,
Speaker 2: but also from other members of the LGBT community. There's
Speaker 2: this sense of being too gay for straight spaces and
Speaker 2: too straight for gay spaces. Have you experienced that sort
Speaker 2: of double rejection?
Speaker 1: You know what I've experienced, especially my history and my background.
Speaker 1: Grew up in the country. I've got a you know,
Speaker 1: an identical twin brother who played football as well, stoic
Speaker 1: and strong. I definitely like I feel sometimes like I
Speaker 1: question my own place in the queer community. And you know,
Speaker 1: look at you, You're a white male privilege, looking the
Speaker 1: way you do, trying to step into our trauma that's ours.
Speaker 1: And I acknowledge that too, like the first one to
Speaker 1: understand that and to admit my journey has been relatively easy.
Speaker 1: The fact that I can see here and say I'm
Speaker 1: comfortable and strong in talking about my sexuality such a privilege,
Speaker 1: because I know there's so many people out there, so
Speaker 1: many men out there that especially bisexual men or straight
Speaker 1: presenting men with a strong masculine friendship group, or you know,
Speaker 1: they may be married to a woman or have a
Speaker 1: girlfriend that's a woman having these feelings questioning or being
Speaker 1: attracted to another man and feeling shamed and embarrassed about it.
Speaker 1: And part of the reason why I wanted to share
Speaker 1: some of my experiences is so those people, whether they
Speaker 1: want to start talking about it with their partner or
Speaker 1: with their friends or someone in their community, that they
Speaker 1: feel seen and that it's okay. It's okay to have
Speaker 1: these feelings. You're not any less of a man, whatever
Speaker 1: that means, you know. I remember the comments from Gil McLaughlin,
Speaker 1: CEO of the AFL.
Speaker 3: I wanted to ask you about them.
Speaker 2: So he said that he can understand why nobody has
Speaker 2: come out in the men's game, because why would anybody
Speaker 2: want that burden? How does that make you feel in
Speaker 2: the seat that you're in now?
Speaker 1: I remember those comments, and the conversation in the locker
Speaker 1: room just exacerbated that fear even more if you're a
Speaker 1: gay man or a bisexual man sitting in that locker room,
Speaker 1: because the players would be like, oh, can you imagine this? This,
Speaker 1: or I even heard the one night. You know, I'd
Speaker 1: even do it. I would even pretend so I could
Speaker 1: get some money out of it or anything like that.
Speaker 1: It's like, it's absurd, But I remember those comments, and
Speaker 1: it's really easy for me as a pass player. You know,
Speaker 1: I don't have to run out there at the MCG
Speaker 1: in front of eighty thousand fans next week. I don't
Speaker 1: have to fly over to a hostile Adelaide Oval and
Speaker 1: play and fear the comments being thrown at me. But
Speaker 1: I can imagine for a player that you know, this
Speaker 1: is their livelihood, this is a job, that a workplace
Speaker 1: that provides income for their family and their future. Maybe
Speaker 1: it's worth not saying anything and then having a football career,
Speaker 1: successful football career, because if you don't say anything, I
Speaker 1: can still and I'm still playing good football, and then
Speaker 1: I can finish, retire and then sail off to the
Speaker 1: sunset and go find my community.
Speaker 3: So what would you say to them?
Speaker 1: Then?
Speaker 2: What would you say to gay or bisexual men currently
Speaker 2: playing in the AFL?
Speaker 1: What I would say, and this is, you know, there
Speaker 1: are currently games and bisexual men playing in the AFL
Speaker 1: at the moment and in the past. You know, I
Speaker 1: only feel okay to I guess in quotations take this title.
Speaker 1: This is not about me. It's not about Mitch Brown
Speaker 1: being the first at all. For me. It's about sharing
Speaker 1: my experience so others can feel seen, others can have
Speaker 1: a role model. I'm not famous. Previously, many people wouldn't
Speaker 1: know that I'm played for ten years. But to have
Speaker 1: someone and then maybe there will be that second person,
Speaker 1: and then the third, maybe there'll be a current player,
Speaker 1: and as that community grows, the empathy grows. If this
Speaker 1: has an impact on one person, it's worth it. It
Speaker 1: matters what are you hoping.
Speaker 3: The AFL says in response to hearing.
Speaker 1: This interview, My advice to the AFL would be to
Speaker 1: celebrate positive male role models. We celebrate the ones who
Speaker 1: are successful in the eyes of whether it's wealth or
Speaker 1: the amount of disposals you get on the weekend. You know.
Speaker 1: My advice to the AFL would be, let's celebrate the players.
Speaker 1: You know, they may not be the most successful, but
Speaker 1: they are the most important players in our community, the
Speaker 1: ones who are walking down the street and portraying positive
Speaker 1: male role model all the time.
Speaker 3: Do you think when there's players making homophobic slurs on
Speaker 3: the field, like the one that we're talking about at
Speaker 3: the moment, AzaC Grankn as we head into a final series,
Speaker 3: do you think that match bands is the tool that
Speaker 3: you would be using to try and prevent these from
Speaker 3: happening in the future.
Speaker 1: I thought about this a lot, and you know, personally,
Speaker 1: it doesn't affect me or I don't feel strongly either way,
Speaker 1: whether you know a player cops a five week band
Speaker 1: or a one week or nothing. What matters to me
Speaker 1: most is a sense of change, a movement created where
Speaker 1: you can be anyone and feel like you can be
Speaker 1: anyone and be safe in any environment here in Australia.
Speaker 1: And I understand like I've got two young boys that
Speaker 1: I love very much, and as a parent you often
Speaker 1: think about what's the future of for them and what
Speaker 1: do you want for them? And you know they're a
Speaker 1: sporting nation. The boys are going to play sport. All
Speaker 1: that I care about is there no matter of environment
Speaker 1: they are, whether it's in the group chat, whether it's
Speaker 1: in their basketball or footy team, whether it's at school,
Speaker 1: they feel safe and comfortable to be whoever they want
Speaker 1: to be.
Speaker 2: What do you hope they think when one day they're
Speaker 2: a bit young now, probably to sit through the length
Speaker 2: of this. But what do you hope that they think
Speaker 2: about you when they watch this one day?
Speaker 1: I mean, this is one of my this is one
Speaker 1: of my fears is you know, will they get bullied
Speaker 1: when they get a bit older? You know, what kind
Speaker 1: of comments or articles will they click on when they
Speaker 1: have access to the internet. But overriding those thoughts, those
Speaker 1: negative thoughts, I mean, they were proud. Last night I
Speaker 1: shared with the boy's mum, my ex wife, Shay, what
Speaker 1: I was going to do. I mean that was really
Speaker 1: important for me, and I was to be honest, worried
Speaker 1: about her reaction. Would she will be worried about the
Speaker 1: reaction of the community and how that would affect our
Speaker 1: two boys who are very young. And it surprised me.
Speaker 1: She reacted really well. She sent me a text message
Speaker 1: actually this morning and I'd like to share it says
Speaker 1: good luck this morning. I'm so proud of you and
Speaker 1: right behind you all the way. This will make the
Speaker 1: world a slightly better place for our boys and young
Speaker 1: men in Australia, hopefully old men too. This is living
Speaker 1: the values of the kind of man I want our
Speaker 1: boys to grow up to be. Men that care and
Speaker 1: are proud of who they are. You know what matters
Speaker 1: most is starting a chain reaction, starting a movement. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm in this position, strong and comfortable to, as Gil
Speaker 1: McLaughlin says, take the burden and if that, if someone
Speaker 1: needed to do it, I'm in the space to do it.
Speaker 1: And I've done it, and hopefully this now provides the safety,
Speaker 1: the comfort and the space for the second person. And
Speaker 1: I mean, who's counting anyway?
Speaker 2: You're shown unbelievable wisdom, maturity, compassion in this chat. Leave
Speaker 2: us with some guidance. What's the best way for footy
Speaker 2: fans and for your loved ones, even the ones or
Speaker 2: especially the ones that are learning this for the first time.
Speaker 2: What's the best way for them to show up from
Speaker 2: here interested for you, but also for the sport and
Speaker 2: for the AFL and for young men in general.
Speaker 3: What can we do?
Speaker 1: I've mentioned the power of uplifting role models, and I've
Speaker 1: mentioned the power of empathy. I think that if you
Speaker 1: can find it somewhere in your heart, whether you're sitting
Speaker 1: there watching football on the weekend or you're sitting next
Speaker 1: to your brother, to have a sense of empathy that hey,
Speaker 1: they might be that very person that might be suppressing feelings.
Speaker 1: They might be that person that is feeling so trapped
Speaker 1: and unhappy because they can't be who they are. And
Speaker 1: if they can have even a little bit of sense
Speaker 1: of hey, you know what, it's okay, that sense of empathy,
Speaker 1: even just a fraction, I think it will make it
Speaker 1: a huge difference.
Speaker 2: Mitch, thank you for showing up today and for being
Speaker 2: the man that you are.
Speaker 1: Thanks for providing the space Sah.
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us today, and importantly, thank you to
Speaker 2: Mitch for telling his story. If you need support or
Speaker 2: someone to talk to at any time, you can contact
Speaker 2: Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen or queue life on one
Speaker 2: eight hundred one eight four five two seven.
Speaker 3: We'll speak to you on Monday.
Speaker 2: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda
Speaker 2: Bunjelung Kalkotin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the
Speaker 2: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres
Speaker 2: Strait Island and nations.
Speaker 1: We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,
Speaker 1: both past and present,