1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: Already and this is this is the Daily This is 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: the Daily ohs oh, now it makes sense. 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 2: Good morning, and welcome to The Daily OS. My name 4 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 2: is Sam Kozlowski. And on today's episode of our TDA 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,240 Speaker 2: summer series, we thought we'd bring you what was probably 6 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 2: one of our proudest moments as an organization, and that 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 2: was bringing an exclusive interview with ex AFL player Mitch 8 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,839 Speaker 2: Brown to light. In that interview, Mitch told us and 9 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 2: told Australia that he was the first openly gay or 10 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 2: bisexual male AFL player in the game's one hundred and 11 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 2: twenty nine year history. It was an incredible moment and 12 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:48,279 Speaker 2: if we look back on that moment now, we can 13 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 2: just see how much progress already has been made in 14 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 2: this conversation and the continued work that Mitch has done 15 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 2: since his interview with The Daily OS. For me personally, 16 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 2: it was one of the most nerving interviews I've done 17 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 2: in my years at TDA, because the stakes were high 18 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 2: and it was honor to be trusted with Mitch's story. 19 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,960 Speaker 2: Here's that chat with Mitch and I and I think 20 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 2: it's something that will all look back on as a 21 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 2: key moment in twenty twenty five, let's talk about that identity, 22 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 2: and let's talk about some of the stereotypes that exist 23 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 2: around bisexuality. I want to kind of foreshadow what I 24 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 2: think the comments section might look like on our chat, 25 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 2: and I want to ask whether you're worried about being 26 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 2: dismissed because you have a female partner and you present, 27 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 2: as you've said, as what many would stereotype as a 28 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 2: straight man. 29 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: It does does worry me. It worries me to a point. 30 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, I'm strong enough. 31 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: I know who I am, I know the people that 32 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: I love, and that's all that matters to me. But 33 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: I think, think through my experience what I've learned, and 34 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: as I grew up, your sexuality or being queer for 35 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: a man only meant you're either gay or you're not. 36 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,519 Speaker 1: There's no in between. Youither can't be, you can't love both, 37 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: can't be sexually attracted to both. Bisexuality is not a thing. 38 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: It's made up to cover gay men or straight presenting 39 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: gay men, right, And this is what I've learned. One 40 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: of the powerful lessons I've learned from our young people is, 41 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: you know, I feel that young people here in Australia 42 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: think of sexuality so different. It's so black and white. 43 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: For older generations and for young people, sexuality means different things. 44 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: Queerness means different things. Being a bisexual man can look different, 45 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: and it does look different. 46 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 2: Bisexual people face discrimination not just from the straight community, 47 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:01,519 Speaker 2: but also from other members of the LGBT community. There's 48 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 2: this sense of being too gay for straight spaces and 49 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,399 Speaker 2: too straight for gay spaces. Have you experienced that sort 50 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 2: of double rejection? 51 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:14,519 Speaker 1: You know what I've experienced, especially my history and my background. 52 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,399 Speaker 1: Grew up in the country. I've got a you know, 53 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: an identical twin brother who played football as well, stoic 54 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: and strong. I definitely like I feel sometimes like I 55 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: question my own place in the queer community. And you know, 56 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: look at you, You're a white male privilege, looking the 57 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: way you do, trying to step into our trauma that's ours. 58 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: And I acknowledge that too, like the first one to 59 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: understand that and to admit my journey has been relatively easy. 60 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: The fact that I can see here and say I'm 61 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: comfortable and strong in talking about my sexuality such a privilege, 62 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: because I know there's so many people out there, so 63 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: many men out there that especially bisexual men or straight 64 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: presenting men with a strong masculine friendship group, or you know, 65 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: they may be married to a woman or have a 66 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 1: girlfriend that's a woman having these feelings questioning or being 67 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: attracted to another man and feeling shamed and embarrassed about it. 68 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: And part of the reason why I wanted to share 69 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: some of my experiences is so those people, whether they 70 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 1: want to start talking about it with their partner or 71 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 1: with their friends or someone in their community, that they 72 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: feel seen and that it's okay. It's okay to have 73 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:47,239 Speaker 1: these feelings. You're not any less of a man, whatever 74 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:52,359 Speaker 1: that means, you know. I remember the comments from Gil McLaughlin, 75 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:54,600 Speaker 1: CEO of the AFL. 76 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 3: I wanted to ask you about them. 77 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 2: So he said that he can understand why nobody has 78 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:03,840 Speaker 2: come out in the men's game, because why would anybody 79 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 2: want that burden? How does that make you feel in 80 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 2: the seat that you're in now? 81 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: I remember those comments, and the conversation in the locker 82 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: room just exacerbated that fear even more if you're a 83 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: gay man or a bisexual man sitting in that locker room, 84 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: because the players would be like, oh, can you imagine this? This, 85 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: or I even heard the one night. You know, I'd 86 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 1: even do it. I would even pretend so I could 87 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 1: get some money out of it or anything like that. 88 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 1: It's like, it's absurd, But I remember those comments, and 89 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 1: it's really easy for me as a pass player. You know, 90 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 1: I don't have to run out there at the MCG 91 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: in front of eighty thousand fans next week. I don't 92 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: have to fly over to a hostile Adelaide Oval and 93 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 1: play and fear the comments being thrown at me. But 94 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 1: I can imagine for a player that you know, this 95 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: is their livelihood, this is a job, that a workplace 96 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: that provides income for their family and their future. Maybe 97 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: it's worth not saying anything and then having a football career, 98 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 1: successful football career, because if you don't say anything, I 99 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: can still and I'm still playing good football, and then 100 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: I can finish, retire and then sail off to the 101 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: sunset and go find my community. 102 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 3: So what would you say to them? 103 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 1: Then? 104 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 2: What would you say to gay or bisexual men currently 105 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 2: playing in the AFL? 106 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: What I would say, and this is, you know, there 107 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: are currently games and bisexual men playing in the AFL 108 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: at the moment and in the past. You know, I 109 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:50,679 Speaker 1: only feel okay to I guess in quotations take this title. 110 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: This is not about me. It's not about Mitch Brown 111 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: being the first at all. For me. It's about sharing 112 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 1: my experience so others can feel seen, others can have 113 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: a role model. I'm not famous. Previously, many people wouldn't 114 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: know that I'm played for ten years. But to have 115 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: someone and then maybe there will be that second person, 116 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: and then the third, maybe there'll be a current player, 117 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: and as that community grows, the empathy grows. If this 118 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: has an impact on one person, it's worth it. It 119 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: matters what are you hoping. 120 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 3: The AFL says in response to hearing. 121 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: This interview, My advice to the AFL would be to 122 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: celebrate positive male role models. We celebrate the ones who 123 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: are successful in the eyes of whether it's wealth or 124 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: the amount of disposals you get on the weekend. You know. 125 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: My advice to the AFL would be, let's celebrate the players. 126 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: You know, they may not be the most successful, but 127 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: they are the most important players in our community, the 128 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: ones who are walking down the street and portraying positive 129 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: male role model all the time. 130 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 3: Do you think when there's players making homophobic slurs on 131 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 3: the field, like the one that we're talking about at 132 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 3: the moment, AzaC Grankn as we head into a final series, 133 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 3: do you think that match bands is the tool that 134 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 3: you would be using to try and prevent these from 135 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 3: happening in the future. 136 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: I thought about this a lot, and you know, personally, 137 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: it doesn't affect me or I don't feel strongly either way, 138 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:43,319 Speaker 1: whether you know a player cops a five week band 139 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: or a one week or nothing. What matters to me 140 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: most is a sense of change, a movement created where 141 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: you can be anyone and feel like you can be 142 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: anyone and be safe in any environment here in Australia. 143 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: And I understand like I've got two young boys that 144 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: I love very much, and as a parent you often 145 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: think about what's the future of for them and what 146 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: do you want for them? And you know they're a 147 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: sporting nation. The boys are going to play sport. All 148 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,199 Speaker 1: that I care about is there no matter of environment 149 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: they are, whether it's in the group chat, whether it's 150 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: in their basketball or footy team, whether it's at school, 151 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: they feel safe and comfortable to be whoever they want 152 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: to be. 153 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 2: What do you hope they think when one day they're 154 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 2: a bit young now, probably to sit through the length 155 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 2: of this. But what do you hope that they think 156 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 2: about you when they watch this one day? 157 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: I mean, this is one of my this is one 158 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: of my fears is you know, will they get bullied 159 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: when they get a bit older? You know, what kind 160 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: of comments or articles will they click on when they 161 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: have access to the internet. But overriding those thoughts, those 162 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: negative thoughts, I mean, they were proud. Last night I 163 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: shared with the boy's mum, my ex wife, Shay, what 164 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: I was going to do. I mean that was really 165 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: important for me, and I was to be honest, worried 166 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: about her reaction. Would she will be worried about the 167 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: reaction of the community and how that would affect our 168 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: two boys who are very young. And it surprised me. 169 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: She reacted really well. She sent me a text message 170 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: actually this morning and I'd like to share it says 171 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: good luck this morning. I'm so proud of you and 172 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: right behind you all the way. This will make the 173 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: world a slightly better place for our boys and young 174 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: men in Australia, hopefully old men too. This is living 175 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: the values of the kind of man I want our 176 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: boys to grow up to be. Men that care and 177 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: are proud of who they are. You know what matters 178 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: most is starting a chain reaction, starting a movement. I mean, 179 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: I'm in this position, strong and comfortable to, as Gil 180 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: McLaughlin says, take the burden and if that, if someone 181 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 1: needed to do it, I'm in the space to do it. 182 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 1: And I've done it, and hopefully this now provides the safety, 183 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: the comfort and the space for the second person. And 184 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: I mean, who's counting anyway? 185 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 2: You're shown unbelievable wisdom, maturity, compassion in this chat. Leave 186 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 2: us with some guidance. What's the best way for footy 187 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 2: fans and for your loved ones, even the ones or 188 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 2: especially the ones that are learning this for the first time. 189 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 2: What's the best way for them to show up from 190 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 2: here interested for you, but also for the sport and 191 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,319 Speaker 2: for the AFL and for young men in general. 192 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:08,559 Speaker 3: What can we do? 193 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: I've mentioned the power of uplifting role models, and I've 194 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: mentioned the power of empathy. I think that if you 195 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: can find it somewhere in your heart, whether you're sitting 196 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: there watching football on the weekend or you're sitting next 197 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:30,079 Speaker 1: to your brother, to have a sense of empathy that hey, 198 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: they might be that very person that might be suppressing feelings. 199 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: They might be that person that is feeling so trapped 200 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 1: and unhappy because they can't be who they are. And 201 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: if they can have even a little bit of sense 202 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: of hey, you know what, it's okay, that sense of empathy, 203 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: even just a fraction, I think it will make it 204 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 1: a huge difference. 205 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 2: Mitch, thank you for showing up today and for being 206 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 2: the man that you are. 207 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 1: Thanks for providing the space Sah. 208 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us today, and importantly, thank you to 209 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 2: Mitch for telling his story. If you need support or 210 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 2: someone to talk to at any time, you can contact 211 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:15,199 Speaker 2: Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen or queue life on one 212 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 2: eight hundred one eight four five two seven. 213 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 3: We'll speak to you on Monday. 214 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 2: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 215 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 2: Bunjelung Kalkotin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 216 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,439 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 217 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 2: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 218 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 2: Strait Island and nations. 219 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries, 220 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: both past and present,